FG currently broken on macOS 10.15

[Phunyun]

First off I want to say that I do acknowledge that macOS 10.15 is still pre-release software and still in beta and that the devs have no real obligation to update for it for the time being as well. I just wanted to bring attention to this in case this issue rolls over to the full launch which should be expected in September about a month from now.

With even a fresh install, when I try to launch FG on my MacBook running the latest macOS 10.15 beta, nothing really happens for about 5 minutes, but then after 5 minutes it seems to cause a sort of mini system crash, causing all applications to crash and returning me to the home screen and FG continues to not launch.

If anyone wants me to do any troubleshooting or if there are logs I can fetch for it I'd be happy to do so.

EDIT: For anyone who found this looking for a solution to the same problem:


That said, this will be a problem no one will have to worry about once FG Unity launches! In the meantime if anyone comes across this and you need a fix, your best bet is either to run a Windows or Linux VM on your Mac (easiest option, Linux would run a lot better), downgrade back down to 10.14, dual-boot, or do a remote session (e.g. RDP to Windows) to a remote machine.

[Moon Wizard]

Fantasy Grounds is built as a Windows application, which runs within a virtual machine for Macs. (I believe it uses Wine wrapper on the download from our web site.)

There's nothing specific that Fantasy Grounds is doing on Mac different than Windows, so we'll need to wait and see if the release version of the OS addresses, or if the Wine project addresses before release.

Regards,
JPG

[Bidmaron]

MW, if it is not fixed, you will have a bunch of existing users upset. It may be prudent to post a warning on the launcher that Mac users should not upgrade OS until this issue is known corrected.

[esmdev]

Is this possibly connected to Apple dropping support for 32-bit applications? I'm not sure if that includes wine but if it does FG is going to have a major problem between the update and Unity release.

[Trenloe]

Is this possibly connected to Apple dropping support for 32-bit applications?
Yep, that's basically it. Some more info here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?49973-Will-Fantasy-Grounds-(non-Unity-version)-support-macOS-Catalina

[Bidmaron]

So unless wine releases an update, anyone upgrading will be hosed because i don’t see Apple fixing the problem.
The alternative is using parallels, which is what I do. But that costs money.

[LordEntrails]

So the take-away here is; "Don't upgrade your OS unless you know all your applications that are important to you work with the upgrade."

Funny how I run into that issue with enterprise software running on corporate servers. "What do you mean you updated the xyz on the server? You know that's not compatible with the applications running on that server that are used by 15,000 people across the company? Yes, yes that does mean the corporate PLM/ERP/CRM/Financial system is down."

[Phunyun]

Fantasy Grounds is built as a Windows application, which runs within a virtual machine for Macs. (I believe it uses Wine wrapper on the download from our web site.)

There's nothing specific that Fantasy Grounds is doing on Mac different than Windows, so we'll need to wait and see if the release version of the OS addresses, or if the Wine project addresses before release.

Regards,
JPG

Just for clarification, Wine is a compatibility layer, not a VM.

I was looking into it and the issue does look like it's how Apple is dropping support for all 32-bit applications in 10.15, Wine of which has always previously only able to run as 32-bit. Codeweavers is allegedly "working on it", but I can't find anything definitive outside of hearsay in forums.

The new macOS is launching in a month (usually launches around the 20th of September), I'd highly advise putting up some warnings about compatibility and how it will not work with macOS 10.15, especially with more people trying out the public beta now as well. The link Trenloe shared also mentions that you guys are unable to build it for Windows even as 64-bit due to compatibility issues, and if that's so then it would probably be in your best interests to start warning now because a simple Wine update won't fix anything (please correct me if I'm wrong though).

It's clearly out of your control for the most part but it will upset a lot of people if they find out the hard way unwarned.

That said, this will be a problem no one will have to worry about once FG Unity launches! In the meantime if anyone comes across this and you need a fix, your best bet is either to run a Windows or Linux VM on your Mac (easiest option, Linux would run a lot better), downgrade back down to 10.14, dual-boot, or do a remote session (e.g. RDP to Windows) to a remote machine.

[Moon Wizard]

One of the challenges is that we have no way to identify Mac users, since there is no differentiation in the product sold; nor a mechanism to "warn" people. The best we could do without adding development is to add a note at the top of the launch screen (which people usually ignore anyway). We're trying to keep our focus on FGU, since it is natively 64-bit, and we're planning to have a Mac version. (especially since the current version can not be converted to 64-bit without a major rewrite of libraries and a lot of development time)

Regards,
JPG

[Phunyun]

One of the challenges is that we have no way to identify Mac users, since there is no differentiation in the product sold; nor a mechanism to "warn" people. The best we could do without adding development is to add a note at the top of the launch screen (which people usually ignore anyway). We're trying to keep our focus on FGU, since it is natively 64-bit, and we're planning to have a Mac version. (especially since the current version can not be converted to 64-bit without a major rewrite of libraries and a lot of development time)

Regards,
JPG

Of course, sorry, I was thinking like a warning on the Download page or something along those lines.

Really looking forward to the new FGU, I unfortunately barely missed getting into the Kickstarter so looking forward to when I can first check it out.

[esmdev]

One of the challenges is that we have no way to identify Mac users, since there is no differentiation in the product sold; nor a mechanism to "warn" people. The best we could do without adding development is to add a note at the top of the launch screen (which people usually ignore anyway). We're trying to keep our focus on FGU, since it is natively 64-bit, and we're planning to have a Mac version. (especially since the current version can not be converted to 64-bit without a major rewrite of libraries and a lot of development time)

Regards,
JPG

There is the Thursday newsletter. Admittedly not everyone reads it but they cannot say you didn't warn them just that they didn't read the warning.

[Phunyun]

I'd agree, at least some warning should probably be published just so you can say you did, could help soften any potential backlash.

[Bidmaron]

The other thing I have noticed over the last few months is that I keep getting random pop up warnings that some piece of software I have will not work with the next OS. so far all of it has been stuff I had forgotten I had installed, let alone even needed. I don’t use wine (I use parallels VM), so I haven’t seen a warning about that. Since I just got another warning last night, I have no idea how thorough whatever background check that’s running is in checking things because it just seems random when something pops up.

[sturtus]

Can anybody with Catalina test with 64-bit Winebottler?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51276-Mac-users-beware&p=456000&viewfull=1#post456000

[ddavison]

In the meantime, there are some possible work-arounds that we have added to the Mac OSX Install page here on the site.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/home/FGMacInstallation.php

[Gix]

One of the challenges is that we have no way to identify Mac users, since there is no differentiation in the product sold; nor a mechanism to "warn" people. The best we could do without adding development is to add a note at the top of the launch screen (which people usually ignore anyway). We're trying to keep our focus on FGU, since it is natively 64-bit, and we're planning to have a Mac version. (especially since the current version can not be converted to 64-bit without a major rewrite of libraries and a lot of development time)

Regards,
JPG

Maybe give us a way to proactively "self-identify" either on the website or the software itself?

[Gix]

Can anybody with Catalina test with 64-bit Winebottler?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51276-Mac-users-beware&p=456000&viewfull=1#post456000

Yes. I tested. It didn't work for me. Wine wouldn't run at all. Winebottler runs, but without wine working, not sure how to get that running. Then again, I don't use Wine for anything other than Fantasy Grounds or drinking, in that order.

[LordEntrails]

Maybe give us a way to proactively "self-identify" either on the website or the software itself?
Or people could look at the published hardware requirements. Or subscribe to the newsletter. Or just know not to upgrade an operating system until their desired applications are tested and supported. Not that self-identifying isn't a useful addition, but it's just one more method that most people will ignore.

Not to be too cynical about this, but I work in IT and these types of issues are pretty much impossible to prevent. For instance I see software professionals upgrade server operating systems, patches, etc without checking the published software compatibility matrices for the single enterprise application that server is setup to run (and hence taking down an enterprise application for thousands of users).

There's only so much anyone can do to prevent users from smacking themselves. Another (cynical?) perspective, their is a reason the 'leading edge' is called the 'bleeding edge', and it applies to people who want to be the first to upgrade anything :O

[Nilram the Grey]

I am a Mac user and I just checked all my applications for compatibility which is something the Apple installer for Catalina automatically does. For whatever reason the Fantasy Grounds application registers as 64-bit and not 32-bit. I suspect you are going to have a mess on your hands with unhappy customers discovering that FG isn't going to run once they upgrade their OS. I don't know who is responsible for registering whether an application is 32 or 64 bit.

[notrealdan]

I am a Mac user and I just checked all my applications for compatibility which is something the Apple installer for Catalina automatically does. For whatever reason the Fantasy Grounds application registers as 64-bit and not 32-bit. I suspect you are going to have a mess on your hands with unhappy customers discovering that FG isn't going to run once they upgrade their OS. I don't know who is responsible for registering whether an application is 32 or 64 bit.

The WINE wrapper that FG for Mac is packaged within is probably technically a 64-bit app. The macOS has no idea that FG is inside. It only sees WINE running. Just a guess. I don't have a Mac handy at the moment.

[ddavison]

I don't know who is responsible for registering whether an application is 32 or 64 bit.

It's not a matter of simply registering an app to be 64-bit or not. The app itself has to be compiled as a 64-bit app. We made an attempt in Q4 2018 to port FG Classic to 64-bit and we were unsuccessful due to some library dependencies. We were hoping that FGU would be out as a suitable replace by the time this hit, but we are a few months out from that still.

[Gix]

I have a different Windows Desktop. The solution I've landed on until I find a better one is to use Microsoft Remote Desktop to connect to IT. That way I'm not burning out my CPU running a VM and taking up 10+ gig just to run a non-3d desktop app.
I'll run all my sound from the laptop as per normal, but the server/client from the windows machine.

[P0H0]

I updated to Catalina — yes, I always update. Yes, I can’t play now as well as many other customers. You can shrug and say “I should’ve waited...” and play the worlds smallest violin. Yes, I may leave to Roll 20 until a 64bit client is released.

I’m disappointed.

[Bidmaron]

You do have alternatives. Boot camp we are told works and I know from my own experience that parallels virtual machine works. That option is an additional expense but it is an option.

[P0H0]

I’ll try it — Where can I purchase an inexpensive version of Windows online? $139 seems to the be the going rate — is there a cheaper alternative?

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/b/windows?icid=CNavSoftwareWindows&activetab=tab:formac

[P0H0]

Anyone have an extra key laying around for windows?

[Nylanfs]

Go talk to a local independent computer shop and see if they will install a OEM version of Windows on for cheap.

[notrealdan]

Another option is to install Linux on a virtual machine on your Mac and run the Windows version of FG in there within Wine. That would not require a Windows license, so would be free. FG runs just as well for me on Linux + Wine as it does on Mac + Wine (before Catalina). If you use a free VM tool like VirtualBox, instead of a paid one like Parellels, the whole setup is free.

As with any such workaround, YMMV and some technical knowledge may be required.

[LordEntrails]

Windows 10 does not require a license. After 30 days you cant adjust some of the desktop theme items, but everything keeps working.

[notrealdan]

Windows 10 does not require a license. After 30 days you cant adjust some of the desktop theme items, but everything keeps working.

You'll also have a constant watermark on the screen reminding you to activate. But, yes, MS have become much more lenient since they've decided to focus more on services (O365, Azure, etc.) than Windows. They don't even withhold updates anymore or otherwise nag you.

For those considering this...
Here's the official place to get the installer for Windows 10: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
Don't download Windows from somewhere other than Microsoft, as you won't be able to be sure something unpleasant hasn't crawled into the installer.*

*I think Parallels automates this for you, and they would be a trustworthy source. I haven't used Parallels in about 10 years, so I'm not positive.

[P0H0]

So question --- I have a Mid 2012 Mac Pro Retina. Do install the 32 or 64 bit Windows 10?

[ddavison]

It is probably 64-bit. You may have to Google the model # to verify, but 64-bit Windows runs 32-bit apps like Fantasy Grounds fine.

[P0H0]

Ok, 64 bit Windows 10 Installed. FG is working — wasn’t too horrible. I had 128Gigs spare for a partition. Also I bought a single use license off eBay for $5 — all is well again.

Bootcamp works

[ddavison]

Thanks for letting us know. Thanks to LordEntrails and notrealdan for a solid suggestion.