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ddavison
August 19th, 2019, 18:32
This thread is no longer active. See here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?66991-FGU-Sharing-LOS-and-Light-Definitions-(v-4-1-and-up-only)

Thanks for helping us test out the Alpha version of Fantasy Grounds. As you can see from the test module for Lost Mine of Phandelver, the LOS data is preset for that particular module. We've done several others in an earlier version of FGU, but we really need to redo these. If you want to help and share the results with other Alpha users, you can join us here.

Watch all the LOS videos here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?52024-LOS-videos).

Post the module xml files here. It will only contain the changes you made for LOS and none of the official content from the module. We will be able to use this to update the maps for everyone. By sharing the files here, you are giving us (and other FGU users) permission to use these files. Before you start working on a module, it is probably wise to post your intention here just to help avoid having too many people all work on the same module.
When you post the xml file remember to give details of what ruleset the module is for and could you also post the store product number or a link to the store item so I know where to look.

Projects in Progress - See Posts #2 and #3 for completed projects

Fires of the Haunted City - in Progress Allmight
Volo's Guide to Monsters - Maps - In Progress Ascalon
Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica - In Progress jbor613
RMC: Dun Cru - In Progress
RMC: Shadow World: Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn - In Progress
RMC: A Wedding at Axebridge - In progress



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXkcaRVYuHw

Instructions and download link for the LOS Extraction Tool are here:
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/260440084/Developer+Guide+-+Extracting+LOS+Data+for+Modules

ddavison
August 19th, 2019, 22:29
Sorry Doug, I'm hijacking your post because I've run out of room above.

Completed Projects

LMOP - Lost Mine of Phandelver - Done by Doug.
Krenko's Hideout - Ravnica - Done by Doug
Waterdeep Dragon Heist - Done Zacchaeus
Descent into Avernus - Done Zacchaeus
Dragon of Icespire Peak - Done Zacchaeus
Ghosts of Saltmarsh - Done Zacchaeus
The Sunless Citadel - Done Acererak
Pathfinder 2 Hellknight Hill - Done Allmight
Cult of Cinders Done - Allmight
Tomorrow Must Burn Done Allmight
Dead in Thay - Done LordBattle
Forge of Fury - Done GarthGiantBane
Dawn of the Forge Titan - Done revanmaster
Scourge of the Sword Coast - Done Ravenmaster
FG Battle Maps - Done pollux
In the Dungeon of the Slave Lords (A0-A4) - Done sdinwiddie
Well Met in Kith'takharos - Done Bale Nomad
Storm King's Thunder - Done jlabbe
Tomb of Annihilation - Done Zacchaeus
PotA Done - Halfront
Rise of Tiamt Done - Ascalon
Ruins of Azlant AP 1-4 Done will9k
Neotomas Paradise Done - Moriarity
DDEX3-2 Shackles of Blood Done - Moriarity
Curse of Strahd - Done stewartl42
Starfinder Signal of Sceams AP 1-3 - Done Blacklamb
Abandoned Shrine (5E and PF) Done - Moriarity
The Unscrupulous Pawnbroker - Done Moriarity
TYP White Plume Mountain - Done Zacchaeus
The Mummy's Mask: AP1 and AP2 - Done brochr
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Sandpoint, Light of the Lost Coast - Done Steve Flammang
Starfinder Society Scenarios #1-01, #1-02, #1-03, #1-05 and #1-06 - Done madman
TYP - Against the Giants - Done Zacchaeus
TYP - Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan - Done Zacchaeus
Starfinder Dawn of Flame AP 1 and 2 - Done madman
Starfinder Attack of the Swarm AP1 and 2 - Done madman
Rise of the Runlelords anniversary edition AP1-6 - Done Steve Flammang
Storm Lord's Wrath - Done Raithath
Incident at Absalom Station (Dead suns 1of 6) Done Cyblix
Dungeon of Rickedness Done Maugrimm and Jiminomonka
Dungeon of the Mad Mage - Done - Doug and Zacchaeus
Hoard of the Dragon Queen - Done - Zacchaeus
Tomb of Horrors Done Zacchaeus
Out of the Abyss - Done Zacchaeus
Starfinder Dead Suns AP 3, 4, 5 and 6 - Done Curuthanir
Divine Contention - Done Zacchaeus
Sleeping Dragon's Wake - Done Zacchaeus
Tactical Maps Reincarnated - Done Zacchaeus
B2 Keep on the Borderlands Done schwai
Skitter Shot (Starfinder) Done Stadlerc
Skitter Crash (Starfinder): Done Stadlerc
Against the Aeons Adventure Path AP1 and AP2: Done Curuthanir
The Fall of Plaguestone (Pathfinder 2) Done Daso

Kelrugem
August 19th, 2019, 22:58
AAW Modules which now have LOS added

5E


A00: Crow’s Rest Island


A01: Crypt of the Sun Lord


A02: Devil of the Dark Wood


A03: Champion’s Rest


A05: Winterflower
A07: Alchemist's Errand
A08: Search for the Tri-Stone
A09: Rogue Wizard
A10: Icecrag Monastery
A16: Midwinter's Chill
A17: Haunting of Rybalka Lodge
A18: Storm's Wake
A19: Incandium's Eruption
A22 Saatman's Folly
A24: Return to the Crypt of the Sun Lord


B02: Happiness in Slavery


B03: It All falls Down


B04: The Cave Beast Hoard


B06: Cry of Ill Omen


B07: Beauty & Blood


B08: Thief in the Night


B09: Curse of the Full Moon
B14 The Battle for Bridgefort
C01: Alagroran's Gem



BASIC01: A Learning Time


BASIC02: A Frightful Time


BASIC03: A Giving Time


BASIC04: A Miraculous Time
CO2: Goblin Cave


Mini-Dungeon #001: Buried council Chambers


Mini-Dungeon #002: Hobgoblin Lair


Mini-Dungeon #003: Shrine of the Earth Barons


Mini-Dungeon #004: Summoner’s Remorse


Mini-Dungeon #005: The Soularium


Mini-Dungeon #006: Abandoned Shrine


Mini-Dungeon #007: The Pententieyrie


Mini-Dungeon #008: Carrionholme


Mini-Dungeon #009: Tiikeri’s Revenge


Mini-Dungeon #010: Candalabra Towers


Mini-Dungeon #011: Buta No Shiro


Mini-Dungeon #012: Nekh-ta-Nebi’s Tomb


Mini-Dungeon #013: The Case of the Scrupulous Pawnbroker


Mini-Dungeon #014: The Soul of a Prince


Mini-Dungeon #015: Torment at Torni Tower


Mini-Dungeon #016: The Halls of Hellfire


Mini-Dungeon #017: Shadows of Madness


Mini-Dungeon #018: Neotomas Paradise


Mini-Dungeon #019: The Goblin Warren


Mini-Dungeon #020: Sepulchre of the Witching Hour’s Sage


Mini-Dungeon #021: Daenyr’s Return


Mini-Dungeon #022: The Pleasure Den


Mini-Dungeon #023: Aura of Profit


Mini-Dungeon #024: The Lapis Maiden of Serena Hortum


Mini-Dungeon #025: The Phase Spider Lair


Mini-Dungeon #026: Sanctuary of Exsanguination


Mini-Dungeon #027: Kaltenheim


Mini-Dungeon #028: Throne of the Dwellers in Dreams


Mini-Dungeon #029: Heart of the Sacred Dawn


Mini-Dungeon #030: The Burning Tree of Coilltean Grove


Mini-Dungeon Monthly #1


Mini-Dungeon Monthly #2


Mini-Dungeon Monthly #3


Mini-Dungeon Monthly #4


Mini-Dungeon Monthly #5


Mini-Dungeon Monthly #6
SH3 The Breath of the Goddess
U01: Dark Days in Stoneholme



U02 Murder in Stoneholme


U03: Death Comes to Stoneholme
Mini Dungeon Tome


Rise of the Drow Collector's Edition
Shattered Hearts Adventure Path: Crucible of Faith

Pathfinder










A00: Crow’s Rest Island


A01: Crypt of the Sun Lord


A05: Winter Flower
A09: Rogue Wizard
A16: Midwinter's Chill
A18: Storm's Wake
A19: Incandium's Eruption


B04 The Cave Beast Hoard
C01: Alagoran's Gem


Mini-Dungeon #001: Buried council Chambers


Mini-Dungeon #002: Hobgoblin Lair


Mini-Dungeon #003: Shrine of the Earth Barons


Mini-Dungeon #004: Summoner’s Remorse


Mini-Dungeon #005: The Soularium


Mini-Dungeon #006: Abandoned Shrine


Mini-Dungeon #007: The Pententieyrie


Mini-Dungeon #008: Carrionholme


Mini-Dungeon #009: Tiikeri’s Revenge
Mini Dungeon #010: Ghastardly Deeds


Mini-Dungeon #011: Buta No Shiro


Mini-Dungeon #012: Nekh-ta-Nebi
Mini-Dungeon #013: The Case of the Scrupulous Pawnbroker


Mini-Dungeon #014: The Soul of a Prince
Mini-Dungeon #015: Torment at Torni Tower


Mini-Dungeon #016: The Halls of Hellfire


Mini-Dungeon #017: Shadows of Madness


Mini-Dungeon #018: Neotomas Paradise


Mini-Dungeon #019: The Goblin Warren


Mini-Dungeon #020: Sepulchre of the Witching Hour’s Sage


Mini-Dungeon #021: Daenyr’s Return


Mini-Dungeon #022: The Pleasure Den


Mini-Dungeon #023: Aura of Profit


Mini-Dungeon #024: The Lapis Maiden of Serena Hortum


Mini-Dungeon #025: The Phase Spider Lair


Mini-Dungeon #026: Sanctuary of Exsanguination


Mini-Dungeon #027: Kaltenheim


Mini-Dungeon #028: Throne of the Dwellers in Dreams


Mini-Dungeon #029: Heart of the Sacred Dawn


Mini-Dungeon #030: The Burning Tree of Coilltean Grove
Mini-Dungeon Tome
SH4: Crucible of Faith


U01: Dark Days in Stoneholme


U02: Murder in Stoneholme


U03: Death Comes to Stoneholme





Savage Worlds


B01: Under His Skin


A04: Forest for the Trees


A05: Winterflower


A06: Bear Trouble


A07: Alchemist’s Errand


A02 Devil in Darkwood


B02 Happiness in Slavery


A00: Crow’s Rest Island


A01: Crypt of the Sun Lord


A03: Champion’s Rest


C01 Alagoran’s Gem



Generic
AAW Map Pack Vol 1
AAW Map Pack Vol 2
AAW Map Pack Vol 3
AAW Map Pack Vol 4

pindercarl
August 19th, 2019, 23:31
After doing this one, I found a faster tip for drawing straight lines that might benefit people. See below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KDchDFdw8g

Pro-tip: You can use the space bar to add points and the enter key to complete drawing, i.e. space bar = mouse-click, enter key = double-click. This should also apply any where in image editing that is relevant, e.g. painting.

ddavison
August 20th, 2019, 01:41
Something like that might work. I'll post an update tomorrow.

Kelrugem
August 20th, 2019, 03:27
I try my luck with the first map of Dungeon of the Mad Mage, but I am not sure if I will ever be able to finish it since I still have to find the best procedure of building walls etc. (and I move to a new city next week) :)

EDIT: While I try this at the moment: I would not suggest making big rectangles for the door. When the door is closed and a player token moves in front of such a door then it can happen that they look through the door (like it happens for terrain) or they can not move into that position due to the blocking of that door. So, smaller rectangles look better :)
Also, when there is an overlap of the door with a wall then it can happen that the door somehow partially deactivates the vision-blocking of the back of the door resulting into that the player can look a bit through the door although it is closed :) the add line function for doors seems to be better because it automatically attachs to wall segments and nodes avoiding that glitch :) (I have an image of that behaviour attached here, last post, https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50522-Sort-of-memory-leak-and-other-things&p=449997#post449997). But that may be changed later, so for now I would careful with "rectangle" doors

Kelrugem
August 20th, 2019, 07:35
I have now the following method for doors:

28552

First I draw the wall and I add two nodes on either side of the door. Make sure you have "Magnetic-Snap" activated, then use "Add Line" and start with one of the nodes and draw the rectangle. The magnetic-snape assures that the nodes snap to each other, avoiding that the player can look through the door by glitches :) The Rectangle function may also work but then one may have to edit the nodes afterwards to assure that the nodes attached to each other (which may or may not happen, depending on "how straight" you've drawn the wall segments), thus I prefer the "Add line" mode. The rectangle for the door is now small enough such that the player can move in front of the door without being blocked or seeing through the door (when the GM moved the token) :) (that depends of course also on the way how the grid lies on the image but smaller rectangles should work better in general, I guess)

Hopefully my informations somehow help

EDIT: Secret doors I do now similarly, but with the wall function replacing the door function (i.e. replacing the blue with red lines):

28553

As you can see I have a similar approach with the nodes but with additonal nodes in the upper boarder. Also here I've drawn the rectangle for the secret door separately, the additional node "inside the wall" shall help the GM to select that rectangle with a double-left-click (for deleting the wall to open the door) and the magnetic-snap at the other nodes helps the wall to look "natural" from both sides such that players can not see the secret door by irregularities of the LoS wall (which could happen with that extra line approach which I suggested before) :) But the important thing is the node inside the wall for an easy selection

ddavison
August 21st, 2019, 21:19
Here is an attached file you can use to see the start I made for Dungeon of the Mad Mage. To use it, open your Data Folder and browse to your campaign. Create a folder called moduledb if it doesn't already exist. Place this xml file in that folder. If you already have a file with this name, back that up first since this would overwrite it.

Maps
Level-1-Players
Level-2-Players
Level-3-Players
Level-15-Players

Kelrugem
August 21st, 2019, 21:24
Thanks :)

I just wanted to write that I am soon done with the first level of DotMM. All doors and terrains are done and more than half of the walls. So, when someone wants to complete a map, then maybe not Level-1-Players of DotMM :D

ddavison
August 21st, 2019, 21:30
Sorry about that. Those maps are huge, so it takes a bit of time to do them. I completely missed that you did that one. I left the secret doors off for now because we are debating how we want to handle these with a few little changes.

If you want to check out the ones I did, please create a new campaign so that it doesn't blow away the version that you did. In fact, make an extra backup somewhere safe. :)

ddavison
August 21st, 2019, 21:31
I'm going to start level 2 for DOTMM.

Kelrugem
August 21st, 2019, 21:37
Sorry about that. Those maps are huge, so it takes a bit of time to do them. I completely missed that you did that one. I left the secret doors off for now because we are debating how we want to handle these with a few little changes.

If you want to check out the ones I did, please create a new campaign so that it doesn't blow away the version that you did. In fact, make an extra backup somewhere safe. :)

No problem of course :) I did that also to see how well that system works (and I mentioned some to Moon Wizard and he made some tasks for that, thanks :) ), and what is better for testing than taking the huge maps of DotMM :D

I will look later in your file for seeing different approaches, sometimes I was not sure what the best method would be :) (e.g. if statues in human-size should be closed terrain or should get no special LoS thing)

ddavison
August 21st, 2019, 23:04
Level 2 is now done. That's it for me for a bit.

Zacchaeus
August 22nd, 2019, 00:33
As soon as i’ve Finished updating the Monster Manual i’ll get started on this. I intend to start with Avernus and work backwards.

Kelrugem
August 22nd, 2019, 06:26
I am not sure if it still needed but here is my version of Level-1-Players of DotMM :) (I added a bit more, double doors works as two doors and I used my secret door approach)

Regardless if my map is useful, I may be able to provide some additional guideline for doing the LoS (at least a system which worked well for me), especially for someone who did not try it out :) I did the following order:

Draw doors and terrain (by hand or using the shapes; be careful about that doors are not too big as I mentioned in some previous post here due to movement restriction)
Draw the walls as if secret doors are open, think about adding extra nodes in the wall at the positions of secret doors (e.g. nodes as the corners of the rectangle for the secret door when you want to use my approach for secret doors)
Draw secret doors using the mentioned nodes to help aligning it with the wall (due to the magnet) and think about an extra node in the interior of the walls (see my previous post about how I handle secret doors; use "Add Line" not rectangle or ellipse)


The secret door approach is of course just a workaround :) Personally I think a second door function as the existing door wall would be more user-friendly. It would work exactly as the existing door with the exception that players can not see the door overlay by hovering over it and that they can not see the interior of the door (mimicing a wall) :) But not sure how complicated that would be to set-up.

It may be easier to do step 3 before 2 such that you do not have to think about the extra nodes (but then be careful to close the wall still such that there is no gap into the interior of walls when the secret door gets removed) :)

The reason why I first draw doors etc. is simply due to the glitch I've seen when the doors and walls overlap with each other (probably not a problem later) :) I draw doors first, e.g. with a rectangle and then I draw the wall, the magnet assures that the wall aligns nicely with the door avoiding that glitch :)

What I also observed, some "advices" to other users about controls etc.:

Sometimes there are really narrow floors for players. I would suggest to make the distance between walls a bit bigger there to avoid stucked players (due to the movement restricition of walls) :) They will not be able to use arrow keys but should then still be able to use drag&drop to go through such floors :) When I was still at Roll20 my players were often annoyed by such small floors when movement was restricted by the walls (there was an option for whether it restricts movement for players)
The magnet aligns several nodes such that a "pile of nodes" is created. When you want to edit such a node then it depends what you want to do. When you want to edit the whole pile of nodes (e.g. moving or deleting the whole pile) then do not select the pile by clicking on it, rather use the selection square because then all nodes are selected. If you just click on the pile then you just select the node on the top; this can be used to edit single nodes but you may have to split the pile first, especially when the node, which you search, is not on the top (turn the magnet off to make that easier)
The RAM usage got better but still can get high over time. When you do not have much RAM but already want to do some maps within the actual version of FGU then do not choose big maps as the ones from DotMM. After some working I often had around 23 GB for such big maps and had to quit FGU after some while to make sure that my work get saved before it crashes :) Turning LoS off while working on it increases performance :)


I started before the last update of FGU and there I had the bug that all pins moved in the upper left corner when I shared the map. That bug is not there anymore but the pins are not on the correct place on my map; I was too afraid to press "Revert Changes" because sometimes it resets LoS, sometimes not :) I hope that this is no problem since the LoS is copied out of the xml file (if my version is used)

Let me know if my approach works :)

pindercarl
August 22nd, 2019, 14:48
"The RAM usage got better but still can get high over time. When you do not have much RAM but already want to do some maps within the actual version of FGU then do not choose big maps as the ones from DotMM. After some working I often had around 23 GB for such big maps and had to quit FGU after some while to make sure that my work get saved before it crashes Turning LoS off while working on it increases performance."

Question while I'm busily plugging away at memory usage for the maps, did you have any tokens or visible shortcuts on the map while you were editing LOS? Thanks.

ddavison
August 22nd, 2019, 15:06
I was seeing it rise to between 5GB and 11GB of RAM with no tokens and with LOS disabled. This was level 1 and level 2 for me in DOTMM. Just launching the 5E ruleset in FGU was around 1.2GB RAM. I closed all maps and left it running overnight and it shows just over 1GB of RAM usage.

FG_Dave
August 22nd, 2019, 17:19
Pathfinder Second Edition -- Fall of PlagueStone ***(COMPLETE)*** --- 8 / 8 maps done.

Kelrugem
August 22nd, 2019, 21:27
"The RAM usage got better but still can get high over time. When you do not have much RAM but already want to do some maps within the actual version of FGU then do not choose big maps as the ones from DotMM. After some working I often had around 23 GB for such big maps and had to quit FGU after some while to make sure that my work get saved before it crashes Turning LoS off while working on it increases performance."

Question while I'm busily plugging away at memory usage for the maps, did you have any tokens or visible shortcuts on the map while you were editing LOS? Thanks.

I only added the LoS walls, so no tokens and other stuff on it (but I am not sure about what you mean with visible shortcuts; I probably didn't have this, only opened map and edited the LoS walls without adding something else on the map) :) The RAM increases after more walls and nodes are added and this also seems to be dependent on how many nodes were already added on the map. The already-existing nodes do not increase the RAM usage on start but they seem to affect how much the RAM usage increases when I edit the LoS :) Especially zooming in and out seems to increase it while panning over the map was working good without too much increase (when I remember it correctly)

Thanks for your work :)

pindercarl
August 23rd, 2019, 15:32
Thanks, Kelrugem. I was able to track down a number of memory leaks with the image control. Once it is pushed in a new build, memory usage should be stable during LOS editing and most map operations. There are still a couple of holes to plug, but they shouldn't be very impactful during typical map usage.

Kelrugem
August 23rd, 2019, 15:53
Thanks, Kelrugem. I was able to track down a number of memory leaks with the image control. Once it is pushed in a new build, memory usage should be stable during LOS editing and most map operations. There are still a couple of holes to plug, but they shouldn't be very impactful during typical map usage.

Thanks for your work :) I am excited to see the update :)

Kelrugem
August 24th, 2019, 02:34
Thanks, Kelrugem. I was able to track down a number of memory leaks with the image control. Once it is pushed in a new build, memory usage should be stable during LOS editing and most map operations. There are still a couple of holes to plug, but they shouldn't be very impactful during typical map usage.

Wow, it works much better now since the last patch :) Thanks a lot :D

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 05:19
Any chance the SHIFT button(s) could be used to lock lines into the either horizontal|vertical mode? That use of the SHIFT key is standard in some (many?) graphics programs.

damned
August 24th, 2019, 05:31
Any chance the SHIFT button(s) could be used to lock lines into the either horizontal|vertical mode? That use of the SHIFT key is standard in some (many?) graphics programs.

^^ This.

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 07:39
2c on Snapping.
It would be nice to have snapping of a new point (that lies within a few pixels horizontally or vertically of an existing point) to the same horizontal/vertical coordinate. That would accelerate dealing with doorways.

Also, perhaps a modifier key (Control?) could eliminate the snapping action on new points. (I don’t know what modifier key is customary on graphics programs for this; Control is a guess. Perhaps a different modifier key would be customary (and better to be compatible with existing UX).)

On the other hand, the snapping a new point to existing point that is nearby can be very troublesome when tweaking LOS, e.g., for adding short segment between room corner and doorway. This snapping action effectively limits how short a segment can be. I would limit the snapping to the box containing the end point, but not beyond that box. The box should be sufficient for connecting lines.

I hope my suggestions are clear.

... Map Module
BTW, I have chosen D&D Hoard of the Dragon Queen for my experimentation(s), and hope to complete maps in alphabetic order.

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 07:50
I don’t know if you’re taking bugs in this thread, but I just noticed an issue with the mouse click result. When I clicked the mouse to start a line, the point would not necessarily start where I clicked. After some brief experimentation, I notice that the line (and virtual point cursor) was moving faster than the mouse, i.e., out of sync with the mouse.

Also, I suggest cancelling any graphics editing (mode) when the map is (re)locked. Now, I find I am still creating lines, even after I lock the map. (When I unlock the map, I can turn off line editing, and re-lock the map, and all is good AFAIK.)

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 14:56
I would suggest during creation of shapes (lines et al.), Double-Click to end the shape, e.g., to end line at the cursor.

QUESTION: Given two maps (GM & Player) of the same area, the only map which needs LOS treatment is the Player map? Correct?

Kelrugem
August 24th, 2019, 15:04
I would suggest during creation of shapes (lines et al.), Double-Click to end the shape, e.g., to end line at the cursor.

QUESTION: Given two maps (GM & Player) of the same area, the only map which needs LOS treatment is the Player map? Correct?

Double-click already works, i.e. it ends drawing with adding a last node at the current position of your cursor :) (or what did you mean?) See:


Pro-tip: You can use the space bar to add points and the enter key to complete drawing, i.e. space bar = mouse-click, enter key = double-click. This should also apply any where in image editing that is relevant, e.g. painting.

(and with escape you end it without drawing a last node)

To your other question: Yes, should be only the player map (not really a use for GM map, I guess) :)

pindercarl
August 24th, 2019, 15:22
2c on Snapping.
It would be nice to have snapping of a new point (that lies within a few pixels horizontally or vertically of an existing point) to the same horizontal/vertical coordinate. That would accelerate dealing with doorways.

Also, perhaps a modifier key (Control?) could eliminate the snapping action on new points. (I don’t know what modifier key is customary on graphics programs for this; Control is a guess. Perhaps a different modifier key would be customary (and better to be compatible with existing UX).)

On the other hand, the snapping a new point to existing point that is nearby can be very troublesome when tweaking LOS, e.g., for adding short segment between room corner and doorway. This snapping action effectively limits how short a segment can be. I would limit the snapping to the box containing the end point, but not beyond that box. The box should be sufficient for connecting lines.

I hope my suggestions are clear.

... Map Module
BTW, I have chosen D&D Hoard of the Dragon Queen for my experimentation(s), and hope to complete maps in alphabetic order.

The control key is the assigned key for toggling the snapping. Adding wall points uses a different snapping mechanism than, say, moving a layer. I've just taken a quick peek and the control key binding is not being used for wall snapping. Thanks for noticing.

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 15:23
@Kelrugem Yes, you are right. I am not sure why I was confused about that. Thank you for setting me straight.

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 15:26
The control key is the assigned key for toggling the snapping. Adding wall points uses a different snapping mechanism than, say, moving a layer. I've just taken a quick peek and the control key binding is not being used for wall snapping. Thanks for noticing.

You are welcome. I am glad this feature already exists!-) TY for quick positive response.

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 20:03
A few observations from doing (Hoard of the Dragon Queen) Carnath Roadhouse (Player).

1) First of all, it’s coming along, but it’s two levels, and I’m only halfway through.
No big deal except... I am using the circle for the pillars, and they are chewing up points voraciously. I know that optimization is a poor idea to do early (premature optimization and all that) but... in the interest of doing maps efficiently and enlisting willing volunteers, I’d suggest paring down the number of points in a circle by about 2/3rds when the circles are small, tight, relatively insignificant (e.g., pillars). The pillars on this map are the vast majority of points, and it’s slowing the mapping down.

And... I still have a whole ‘nother level to do.

I suggest optimizing out many of the points from small scale circles to prevent unnecessary clutter/slow-down from excessive map points.

Workaround: Don’t use circles for numerous columns/pillars, but they are convenient so it’s nice to use them. OR don’t do pillars at all (when a simple wall will suffice). Only do pillars and columns when they’re standalone, i.e., necessary.

2) Also, I dearly love the UNDO. TY!
May I recommend a REDO? When the mapping is slow, or very experimental, a few UNDOs deserve a few REDOs. But REDO does not seem to exist. Could you add REDO?

3) SPECIAL REQUEST: Please remove the SNAPPING to nearby points. I don’t know how everyone else is doing maps, but I’m having a bugger of a time getting points where I want without having SNAP gobble them up to a location I do not want. I even tried zooming way in, without success. The snapping even causes points to jump after they’ve been (seemingly successfully) placed. Ouch. This becomes a real problem with doors (for me). I guess everyone is doing overlapping walls w/doors? I figured I’d go for accuracy, but it gets frustrating in tight corners, quarters, and proximities.

Wishful thinking, or could SNAPPING be disabled or turned off? TY (I still like the idea of vertical and horizontal proximity snapping, and CONTROL key to disable SNAPPING.)
Maybe all I need is that CONTROL key SNAPPING toggle moved up to a RSN (tm) update (if the current snapping is considered a feature)?

Guoccamole
August 24th, 2019, 20:54
Here is my first MODULE MAPPING adding FGU Line of Sight (LOS) for:

"Hoard of the Dragon Queen"(D&D 5E).
LOS Player Maps:

27 Players maps - complete, some quite huge.

Please let me know if you notice any shortcomings/oversights, or have any comments, suggestions, or questions.
TY!

Kelrugem
August 25th, 2019, 00:56
3) SPECIAL REQUEST: Please remove the SNAPPING to nearby points. I don’t know how everyone else is doing maps, but I’m having a bugger of a time getting points where I want without having SNAP gobble them up to a location I do not want. I even tried zooming way in, without success. The snapping even causes points to jump after they’ve been (seemingly successfully) placed. Ouch. This becomes a real problem with doors (for me). I guess everyone is doing overlapping walls w/doors? I figured I’d go for accuracy, but it gets frustrating in tight corners, quarters, and proximities.

Wishful thinking, or could SNAPPING be disabled or turned off? TY (I still like the idea of vertical and horizontal proximity snapping, and CONTROL key to disable SNAPPING.)
Maybe all I need is that CONTROL key SNAPPING toggle moved up to a RSN (tm) update (if the current snapping is considered a feature)?

There is a toggle for snapping in the toolbar, looks like a magnet :) You can turn that off via clicking on it :) I personally like the snapping it fastens many processes, but I never used overlaps, I rather aligned the things with the walls (by using extra nodes in walls, but I draw walls at the end such that I just have to snap to the nodes of doors etc.) and it works nicely for building secret doors although there might be a secret door function at some point (due to what was said in the last Twitch stream) :) So, I would be sad about a remove of the snapping :D

Moon Wizard
August 25th, 2019, 02:49
Thanks for the feedback.

Pillars
I'll pass your feedback along to Carl and Doug, if they haven't already seen it. It's definitely something to discuss, and decide if we should do anything now or later.

Redo Actions
All image editing operations are supposed to have undo/redo support. I know that it was working at one point, but there have been a lot of changes in that area of the UI. Filed as task FGU-450.

Snapping
Snapping should be controlled by the toggle that Kelrugem mentioned. The Control key is supposed to invert, and that one is filed as FGU-451.

Regards,
JPG

Guoccamole
August 25th, 2019, 04:38
@Kelrugem TY for the magnet tip. Just what the doctor ordered. Perhaps you have a better technique and order for building than I do, but the snapping toggle helps a lot with my current process. TY

Guoccamole
August 25th, 2019, 04:40
@Moon Wizard: TY for registering the issues. FYI, my UNDO attempts were via Shift-Control-Z. I assume that’s the UNDO key but if it’s elsewhere, I could check a different shortcut. TY

Kelrugem
August 25th, 2019, 04:47
@Kelrugem TY for the magnet tip. Just what the doctor ordered. Perhaps you have a better technique and order for building than I do, but the snapping toggle helps a lot with my current process. TY

You're welcome :) I do not know if my process is better, I only did the first level of DotMM (though which is pretty big) so far (and accidentally Doug also did that map, so I should better have chosen another map :D but I am also not sure if my way is good enough for official modules, so maybe better that other people are doing the maps :) )

Guoccamole
August 25th, 2019, 06:01
The dungeon map is interesting because 1) no doors, and 2) lots of nooks and crannies. Latest LOS module mapping is available at https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=450748&viewfull=1#post450748

The nook and crannies are interesting because they beg the question of how precisely to track the walls or, in pragmatic terms, how small of nooks to "capture" for LOS in terms of hiding. I tried to capture corners and nooks smaller than man-sized but not much smaller. So a compromise.

I am curious if the map LOS comes across as harsh (acute LOS shapes to capture key corners) or just fine in practice.

Share your comments if you get a chance to peek at the map. TY

xscapebb
August 25th, 2019, 08:31
WOTC: D&D Tactical Maps Reincarnated > Map#1 (Broken Bridge)
I will work through all the maps from this resource...

Zacchaeus
August 25th, 2019, 11:41
I'm starting on Waterdeep Dragon Heist maps.

Edit: I've also updated the first post with details of who has said they are doing what.

Guoccamole
August 25th, 2019, 16:49
FYI, I have updated an early LOS mapping post with a format to centralize LOS XML file updates to a central post. I believe that will 1) reduce ambiguity of what is the most up-to-date LOS XML file, 2) make it easier for alpha testers to try out the latest LOS maps for a module, and 3) simplify tracking LOS progress on the available maps for a module. I shall keep posting updates in fresh posts with details on how that LOS mapping went, and any interesting details of the map. However, the XML updates will always land in the central post, e.g.:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=450748&viewfull=1#post450748

I mention this approach in case others find it desirable and pragmatic (a la pinned posts that update with progress).

Moon Wizard
August 26th, 2019, 17:11
@Guoccamole: The Undo shortcut key is CTRL+Z. The Redo shortcut key is CTRL+Y.

Regards,
JPG

Zacchaeus
August 26th, 2019, 19:51
Waterdeep Dragon Heist is now done.

xscapebb
August 27th, 2019, 01:19
so.... I had taken a DLC (wotc) map... added all the LOS setup... did "/save"... went into Files and copy-pasted the appropriate xml file out to a "storage location" (on my drive... I just mean not "in" normal FGU files)… I uploaded it here for the "crowd-sourcing"... a few days later I open FGU and go to check that map and there is 0 LOS there... I tried copy-pasting the xml file I had created before back into FGU... no-go... bug or I'm doing something wrong or ???

Moon Wizard
August 27th, 2019, 03:15
What xml file did you copy?

Any edits to module data would be stored under the <FGU Data>/campaigns/<campaign>/moduledb/ folder.

We just received notice from Z that there might be an issue with reloading module data for images, that I will be looking into this week.

You can back up whole campaign directory after each for a short term fix.

Regards,
JPG

xscapebb
August 27th, 2019, 03:52
1. I open FGU... look at the map and no LOS, nothing...
2. I take the xml file I had uploaded (here/above) WOTCTMR1.xml and copy-paste it into \campaigns\testFGU\moduledb\
3. Check FGU still nothing...
4. Close FGU... it appears to save an "empty" file/version over top of the one I pasted
5. now with FGU off, I copy-paste the same file to the same location and start FGU back up again... Check... nothing there (LOS)

Zacchaeus
August 27th, 2019, 11:05
I can confirm that there is some issue here. I started a new campaign and loaded up tactical maps. I added occluder to a small section of one map, saved the campaign and then exited Unity. The .xml file contained the information. I then reloaded the campaign and the occluder information was not showing on the map that I had worked on. I then exited Unity and the .xml file was updated wiping out the occluder info. I then replaced the .xml file in the moduledb with xsapebb's file and again the occluder info was not present on that map and again on exiting the .xml file got wiped of all occluder info.

So I deleted the .xml file and loaded the campaign again and once again added some info to a map. I exited and restarted and the occluder info was not on the map. I then added some more lines and saved and noted that the .xml file got updated. I exited Unity and this time the .xml file did not get wiped of the info. I then loaded again and again added some more and again on exit the .xml file did not get wiped of the occluder information. But on each reload the information was not showing on the map.

I reloaded up xsapebb's file and this time I added a spurious LoS line and then saved the campaign. This time the .xml file got updated with only the info I had entered; all previous information was wiped from the file. So something strange is going on. Because I saw this issue with Avernus and that module was in my modules folder I concluded that the problem was because it was in the modules folder rather than a vault file. However it would appear that the issue is not confined to modules in the module folder.

However it isn't a consistent issue since I have checked my own campaigns where I have added information and in both cases the .xml files show all the info and the occluders are showing on the maps that I have worked on. Furthermore on Dragon Heist, for example, the work took place over two days and there were several reloads and all of the information still showed up after each reload. I also checked the map I worked on last night for ToA and again the occulders are all in place.

Kelrugem
August 27th, 2019, 11:30
I have the conjecture that this is not only the problem with LoS. In 3.5e I realized and reported some problem with non-saved grids. I looked at that again and realized that this was with respect to a map in a module which is not in the vault. Just tested that in 5e, too: Grids and tokens are not saved on BattleMap_Cave01 of the module FG battle maps (not in the vault) while such settings are saved on the skullport image in DotMM (I placed a grid and a token on that image and that was saved) :) (with (non-)saved I mean: It is not or is there after a restart of the campaign) Not sure if that has something to do with the vault etc. (since Zacchaeus mentioned that this behaviour is not consistent) but for some reason some images do not save (specific) things

Zacchaeus
August 27th, 2019, 11:44
Some further information on the above and another serious issue has emerged.

I noticed while testing for the above that none of the map pins were working on the map that I did last night for ToA. On further investigation I discovered that map pins were not working on any of the maps in ToA, even maps that had not even been opened nor worked on.

In order to test this further I started a new campaign and loaded up a TYP module The Sunless Citadel. I opened up a map and added some occluder information and noted that the map pins were all working. I checked the .xml file and the pins were all noted correctly in the moduledb .xml file as well as the occluders. I then exited Unity and checked that the occluder and map pin information were still there. I reloaded and the occluder information was present on the map but the map pins were no longer working. This was the case not just on the map I had worked on but on all maps in the module.

When I then saved the campaign the .xml file got updated wiping out all of the map pin information in the .xml file.
It went from this

<layer>
<name>1.14 13. Empty Room</name>
<id>12</id>
<type>shortcut</type>
<shortcut>
<class>encounter</class>
<record>encounter.enc_1_1413_emptyroom@DD TYP The Sunless Citadel</record>
</shortcut>
<matrix>1,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,1,0,1299,-1851,0,1</matrix>
</layer>
To this

<layer>
<name>1.14 13. Empty Room</name>
<id>12</id>
<type>shortcut</type>
<shortcut>
<class />
<record />
</shortcut>
<matrix>1,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,1,0,1299,-1851,0,1</matrix>
</layer>

I then went back to check and I find that the map pins in Waterdeep are also completely non functional on all maps and the pin information has been wiped from the .xml file.

Moon Wizard
August 29th, 2019, 01:31
I've just pushed an update that should help with this. Can you try testing again?

Thanks,
JPG

Guoccamole
August 29th, 2019, 05:55
I am trying to reuse the mappings I did from the first maps. The simplest one transfers over via the XML (copy/paste), but the other two (far more involved) LOS mappings do not show.

Anyone have a tip (or documentation) on how to merge the (old) XML LOS data into the (fresh) new maps XML file?

Guoccamole
August 29th, 2019, 08:34
@Moon Wizard: Yes, CTRL+Y works. TY

Moon Wizard
August 29th, 2019, 18:27
There was a problem with the name used to save the module files in previous builds. If that was the issue, then the moduledb XML file you saved off from a previous build may have a different name than what it should be. Try opening the same modules, make minor edits, look in the moduledb folder for what the XML file name should be, and compare to the name of moduledb XML file you saved off previously.

That's also assuming you are talking about LOS data for modules, not campaign-built image records.

If that's not the issue, then maybe you can post the files again here.

Regards,
JPG

JohnQPublic
August 30th, 2019, 18:03
Are all the LOS drawings being done the same way as shown in a couple of the videos? The lines are being drawn exactly along the walls. They should be set back a little bit so that the walls can be seen by the players. From the videos I've seen the players will only see floor and blackness. I MUCH prefer the lines being set into the wall a little bit so that the texture/color/detail can be seen.

pindercarl
August 30th, 2019, 18:09
Are all the LOS drawings being done the same way as shown in a couple of the videos? The lines are being drawn exactly along the walls. They should be set back a little bit so that the walls can be seen by the players. From the videos I've seen the players will only see floor and blackness. I MUCH prefer the lines being set into the wall a little bit so that the texture/color/detail can be seen.

The LOS rendering is such that it "peeks" past the walls a couple of pixels so the players can see some of the walls. The peek amount is 5% of the grid size and is based on the tokens view angle. For example, on a 50x50 grid the player will see 2.5 units past a wall. As the "view angle" decreases, the player will see less. For example, at the end of a long hallway, the player will peek fewer units beyond the wall.

JohnQPublic
August 30th, 2019, 18:14
here's what I mean.

Attachment 1 is the way that I see it being done in the videos.

Attachment 2 is the same place but done with the LOS set into the walls.

I much prefer attachment 2.

JohnQPublic
August 30th, 2019, 18:15
The LOS rendering is such that it "peeks" past the walls a couple of pixels so the players can see some of the walls. The peek amount is 5% of the grid size and is based on the tokens view angle. For example, on a 50x50 grid the player will see 2.5 units past a wall. As the "view angle" decreases, the player will see less. For example, at the end of a long hallway, the player will peek fewer units beyond the wall.

Ok. I guess I'll have to see the finished product before I know if I'm spending time moving/re-doing all the LOS stuff. Thanks

Guoccamole
August 30th, 2019, 18:27
If the style of mapping is important, I suggest SmiteWorks publishes a “LOS Mapping Style Guide” because LOS’ing the maps is (as you know) labor intensive, AND some of the maps are hella more labor intensive than others, AND a pixel accurate style of LOS mapping would make them even more labor intensive. For example, an uneven cave wall complex is labor intensive but becomes FAR MORE labor intensive if the canon Style requires pixel accurate tracking.

For example, to deal with secret doors on maps, perhaps pixel accurate mapping is essential (barring redoing the S[ecret doors) icon on map(s)).

Please advise, as I’m dealing with cave map(s) now.

OTOH, if the mapping is still experimental, I believe you should let Alpha testers (i.e., who are helping LOS map) know now... so that they know their work may be wasted.



Please advise. TY

Kelrugem
August 30th, 2019, 18:32
here's what I mean.

Attachment 1 is the way that I see it being done in the videos.

Attachment 2 is the same place but done with the LOS set into the walls.

I much prefer attachment 2.

I understand that you like the second image more but I see problems with secret doors etc. on specific maps. Very often the secret is just a small and thin wall such that players could see the floor behind the secret door when the LoS is as in your second image. Or, the players can make educated guesses about where secret doors are because they will see when they suddenly can not peek through a wall as far as in your second image :)

Zacchaeus
August 30th, 2019, 18:49
If the style of mapping is important, I suggest SmiteWorks publishes a “LOS Mapping Style Guide” because LOS’ing the maps is (as you know) labor intensive, AND some of the maps are hella more labor intensive than others, AND a pixel accurate style of LOS mapping would make them even more labor intensive. For example, an uneven cave wall complex is labor intensive but becomes FAR MORE labor intensive if the canon Style requires pixel accurate tracking.

For example, to deal with secret doors on maps, perhaps pixel accurate mapping is essential (barring redoing the S[ecret doors) icon on map(s)).

Please advise, as I’m dealing with cave map(s) now.

OTOH, if the mapping is still experimental, I believe you should let Alpha testers (i.e., who are helping LOS map) know now... so that they know their work may be wasted.

Please advise. TY

LOS isn't experimental but there are still a couple of issues. The first one where LOS data was being removed from the xml file on reloading a map has been fixed but there is still a problem with map pin data also being removed. I've suspended any work on doing any occluders until the situation is resolved. There is still the question on how secret doors will be dealt with as well.

On the question of where the line should be drawn then that should be just inside the line of the wall. This may not always be entirely possible with some of the handdrawn style maps where the walls are all over the place in terms of thickness and angle. As carl says above the players will still see a definite wall. And Kelrugem is correct if you draw the line in the middle of the wall then secret doors will become rather obvious since they will stick out of the wall. There are a host of different maps styles in the adventures however so there may not be one solution for every one of them.

JohnQPublic
August 30th, 2019, 18:50
I understand that you like the second image more but I see problems with secret doors etc. on specific maps. Very often the secret is just a small and thin wall such that players could see the floor behind the secret door when the LoS is as in your second image. Or, the players can make educated guesses about where secret doors are because they will see when they suddenly can not peek through a wall as far as in your second image :)

Secret doors are usually not a problem. Most of the time the ones I see have somewhere between 3/4 and 1 'wall thickness' between them and the room/hall. There are maps though that have the secret spaces come right up to the black line on the inside of the door and in those cases I would probably just grab a section of wall and put it on top of the secret door opening.


It's a little bit of work (screen shot, paste, grab what I want, copy/crop, insert/place) but it doesn't come up all that often (for me anyway) and I think the extra depth to the walls is worth the work.

It entirely possible that the way it's being done is just fine too. I need to see some finished product to know.

Guoccamole
August 31st, 2019, 17:09
@Zacchaeus: TY for the heads up on the pins. I thought those were fixed. I shall hold off merging pins back into my maps (well, trying to as I have not succeeded yet!) and proceeding with LOS until the pins problem is resolved.

On the secret walls problem, perhaps FGU could add a ‘heal’ feature where we patch a Secret Door (or other item to look like walls around it. Then the DM specifically reveals (not just simple unmask, but Secrets area unmask) the Secret Door/Panel, and the patch vanishes revealing the original map underneath? With luck, that approach would resolve the lion’s share (if not virtually all) Secret Door/Panel problems?

Guoccamole
August 31st, 2019, 17:11
I’m not sure about copyright issues (not a lawyer) modifying a copyrighted map... rather than just adding a layer on top of it. Hmm... perhaps the approach is just to add Secret Door/Panel layer(s), and patch those... leaving the original map intact. Then some feature reveals the map (at DM request) Secret feature/layer by feature/layer?

Zacchaeus
August 31st, 2019, 18:52
For adventures I photoshop the secret doors out (assuming that I didn't get the Photoshop file with the layers and that the secret doors are on a layer that I can switch off). If you have an adventure where the secret door isn't photoshopped out then there's not a lot you can really do to hide it. The issue I think is not so much that there is a secret door but how we deal with that with the LOS tools. We probably need a new secret door tool that can specifically draw such a thing and the occluder can then be manipulated to open and close like doors do now.

ddavison
August 31st, 2019, 19:45
There is going to be a new toggle-able wall for use with secret doors. For most maps, we will draw walls at the wall edge and secret doors will be seamless until opened. We are still considering whether or not the amount of peek-through will be able to be adjusted.

Zacchaeus
August 31st, 2019, 19:49
perk-through

We're gonna have to know what this is exactly before we comment :)

Guoccamole
August 31st, 2019, 20:36
@ddavison: IMO, once the Style approach is chosen, I suggest you provide an LOS Style Guide briefing the approach... with a few before/after LOS examples to show how to apply LOS. This Style Guide could avoid a lot of heartache from redoing LOS b/c of a mismatch of styles to the occluder/secret doors approach.

ddavison
August 31st, 2019, 20:47
Yeah, will do. Busy with hurricane prep at the moment but I can probably add some be next week.

ddavison
August 31st, 2019, 20:49
We're gonna have to know what this is exactly before we comment :)

It is half peek, half twerk.

Zacchaeus
August 31st, 2019, 21:36
It is half peek, half twerk.

lol

Guoccamole
September 6th, 2019, 16:43
@SmiteWorks Does the 9/5/2019 "FGU Playtest Update" take care of the occlusion lossy issues, e.g., the MIA pins? So would it be safe to add occlusion to maps without necessarily losing pins information?

Zacchaeus
September 6th, 2019, 17:31
@SmiteWorks Does the 9/5/2019 "FGU Playtest Update" take care of the occlusion lossy issues, e.g., the MIA pins? So would it be safe to add occlusion to maps without necessarily losing pins information?

Yes, I tested it this morning and the occluders and pins are now tickety boo. Full steam ahead.

Guoccamole
September 7th, 2019, 04:55
Thank you!

Halfront
September 8th, 2019, 22:34
What am I doing wrong*

I want to load someones XML to look at LOS that they have linked in their post* I have opened the module in FGU and pathed to the modulebd and pasted the "new" xml, but no LOS when I open the map* I would love to start some part of a contribution to the LOS for FGU :)

edit: Also is there to be a "return to launcher" from the exit menu* (found the answer to this from Moon Wizard post ***"*I*We are aware that the application doesn*t reset fully when cancelling* which is one of the reasons why Return to Launcher and *reload commands are currently disabled* They are a lower priority than any data and live game issues right now*"**I*

Halfront
September 8th, 2019, 23:16
While testing how Doug used LOS for the "Cragmaw Castle (Player)" I noticed this odd behavior.

The green Terrain Option used for the arrow slits display different for the yellow circled areas and I'm not sure why this happens. The three arrow slits look the same and use the same Terrain line feature. I arrow key moved a PC in Play mode around the Castle and the right side of the Castle doesn't allow looking into just by moving the token around but the top center arrow slits do allow looking inside.

28868

edit: I found my issue - when I hovered over the arrow slit it said "closed" - need a new pair of eyeglasses :)

Which brings up a point of should all arrow slits be default "closed".

Zacchaeus
September 9th, 2019, 00:08
All doors or terrain feature default to closed. I’d leave it up to the DM to decide if they want it open.

Halfront
September 9th, 2019, 01:50
PotA COMPLETED!

31309


EDIT: map xml updated as of 01/22/2020

MAPS COMPLETED
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Ground-Level
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Level-Three
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Level-Two
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Pinnacle
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Stable-Level
Fane-of-the-Eye-Player (corrected terrain per DD recommendations)
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-A-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-B-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-Player-X1
Howling-Caves-Player
Necromancers-Cave-Player
Rivergard-Keep-Player
Rivergard-Keep-Player-2nd-Floor
Rivergard-Keep-Player-Hidden-Boat-Landing
Sacred-Stone-Monastery-Player-Above-Ground
Sacred-Stone-Monastery-Player-Below-Ground
Shrine-of-Tender-Oath-Player
Temple-of-Eternal-Flame-Player
Temple-of-Howling-Hatred-Player
Temple-of-the-Black-Earth-Player
Temple-of-the-Crushing-Wave-Player
The-Black-Geode-Player
The-Plunging-Torrents-Player
The-Weeping-Colossus-Player
Tomb-of-Moving-Stones-Player

The following maps do not have any LOS as I considered LOS not applicable:
(SW let me know if you think different and I will tackle whichever map)
Bargewright-Player
Dellmon-Ranch-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-Player-X5
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-Player-X6
Red-Larch-Environs-Player
Red-Larch-Player
Scarlet-Moon-Hall-Player
Scarlet-Moon-Hall-Player-Tower
Sighing-Valley-Players
Yartar-Player

ddavison
September 13th, 2019, 16:55
Hey folks, I have some feedback that I will start posting.

Hoard of the Dragon Queen - Carnath House
28957
28958

Note: #1 should use the door mode. The line segments will show up as blue when properly set. Additionally, they should line up perfectly with the outline of the door, or line up so they are flush with the wall in situations where the door is very large. With single lines in the middle of thin walls (like we have on this map), the door definition should tightly enclose the entirety of the door. The connecting wall segments should slightly overlap into the door's rectangle to avoid any gaps.

* An upcoming version of FGU will be released so that the intersection point will create a point within both the wall and the doors where they will magnetically lock to each other. You can then delete the point inside the door from the wall since the wall will basically snap to the door's edge.

#2 and #3 - These should ideally snap to a point from each line segment. When drawing lines currently, you can click or spacebar to place a point wherever a new wall comes in. You can even do this when continuing on with a straight line. This will allow you a snap-point later on from a perpendicular line. With the update mentioned earlier, you will be able to add this after the fact by simply overlapping your line to create an intersection point and then deleting the overlapping point that extends beyond the edge snapped point.

I would replace these circles with polygons.
What you currently have:
28959

What I would recommend:
28960

ddavison
September 13th, 2019, 17:04
Here are some thoughts I shared with Zacchaeus already for the Alley maps in Waterdeep Dragon Heist. The map has a bunch of roof lines. Using terrain provides some interesting options for simulating hiding on the other side of a pitched roof. The GM may need to turn on and off roof terrain pieces during play to handle specific scenarios, but it gives some fun options.

Original map with walls drawn. No ability to get up on roofs. Players leaving the map would accidentally see to the other side.
28961

If you redo each major plane of the roof, you get some simulated 3D effects. Players can actually see much of the roof from the ground -- at least for roof lines that are facing them directly. Players can also climb up to a roof, bust through a basement window/door and enter buildings or fly up there.
28962

In play:
28963

These sort of scenarios are almost always going to fall to the person creating the adventure conversion and what they think makes the most sense. As a GM, you can always override the built in LOS by double-clicking to select LOS definitions you don't like and replacing them with something you prefer.

ddavison
September 13th, 2019, 17:12
@Halfront,

Feather-spire Gale looks great. I may have Fane of the Eye and Hunting Axe done from a previous build. I will have to see if that is still good and usable.

28964

Kelrugem
September 13th, 2019, 18:33
Here are some thoughts I shared with Zacchaeus already for the Alley maps in Waterdeep Dragon Heist. The map has a bunch of roof lines. Using terrain provides some interesting options for simulating hiding on the other side of a pitched roof. The GM may need to turn on and off roof terrain pieces during play to handle specific scenarios, but it gives some fun options.

Original map with walls drawn. No ability to get up on roofs. Players leaving the map would accidentally see to the other side.
28961

If you redo each major plane of the roof, you get some simulated 3D effects. Players can actually see much of the roof from the ground -- at least for roof lines that are facing them directly. Players can also climb up to a roof, bust through a basement window/door and enter buildings or fly up there.
28962

In play:
28963

These sort of scenarios are almost always going to fall to the person creating the adventure conversion and what they think makes the most sense. As a GM, you can always override the built in LOS by double-clicking to select LOS definitions you don't like and replacing them with something you prefer.

Thanks for the insight :) This is really a nice idea. I see that I still have to learn how to use the terrain feature in the best possible way because the roof idea is really interesting while I would probably not have thought about something like that :)

Guoccamole
September 13th, 2019, 20:01
Hey folks, I have some feedback that I will start posting.
Hoard of the Dragon Queen - Carnath House


@DDavison: Thank you. I am going to start fresh since I have not been able to merge back the pins. I shall follow your suggestions. TY for the very useful tips and direction.

ddavison
September 13th, 2019, 20:03
@DDavison: Thank you. I am going to start fresh since I have not been able to merge back the pins. I shall follow your suggestions. TY for the very useful tips and direction.

We will be pushing out a new version here in a few hours (or possibly tomorrow) which has support for secret doors, ellipses/circles with fewer points and automatic line intersection points to allow for line snapping.

Guoccamole
September 13th, 2019, 20:05
We will be pushing out a new version here in a few hours (or possibly tomorrow) which has support for secret doors, ellipses/circles with fewer points and automatic line intersection points to allow for line snapping.

Awesome. I shall wait for tomorrow to play/build/map with all the new goodies. TY for the heads up, not to mention all the new features

ddavison
September 14th, 2019, 00:08
Here is a quick video with tips on adding secret doors to a map you've already defined.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=occJtzxaw3Q

Zacchaeus
September 14th, 2019, 00:57
Those are some nice additions.

Guoccamole
September 16th, 2019, 05:59
@ddavison:

1) I think the layers feature could use some TLC. I ‘Duplicate selected layer’ed to duplicate a wall layer for the same map (Carnath House, levels 1 & 2 on the same map). That way, I could reuse the 1st level for the 2nd level and save a bunch of time. However, when I highlight just one of the two ‘Layer LOS’ layers and move the duplicate map (off of level 1, and onto level 2), the result is actually moving both the original map as well as the copy. Then when I undo, I notice that the layer changes from the (new) 2nd layer to the 1st layer.

So I can’t really dupe layers and use the 2nd layer separately (short of more manual labor). Could someone give the layer code a look-see to make sure duplicated layers truly are independent, and when a layer is selected, UX operates (e.g., select all) only on the contents/features of that ‘Layer LOS’ layer?

2) Another nice UX feature in the same vein would be to select some wall (or other) features, and copy/paste them to new locations. Perhaps there’s a way to do that already (and I just haven’t found it)? [I tried ^C and ^V w/o success.] Copy/paste would also allow for copying ‘Layer LOS’ data from one map to another (rather than just duping a layer on one map). Copy/paste across maps could be very useful (I’m looking at you, Castle Naerytar, for starters!).

3) Also, I think that the space bar may best (and customarily?) be used as a basic select mode (i.e., the arrow mode) for quick adjustments (rather than point placement). Mouse-clicking has laying points covered, so the space bar could add some real value with quick select mode (adjusting points on the fly), IMO. And (I believe) holding space bar for access to point/grab mode is fairly standard, and that’s always a plus for ease of learning/use for UX in general.

4) Also, I tried to use Grid to tweak the existing grid to match the map (Carnath House is a great stress test for mapping!-), and I noticed Grid ignores the decimal point. The decimal point shows and edits, but just erases (zeros out) decimal edits when clicked away. So I gave up adjusting the grid. And in wishful thinking mode, using a scroll wheel to rapidly tweak the chosen dimension (X or Y) would be really convenient for rapid tweaking of grid dimensions, especially if it scaled with zoom so that grid tweaking could be as meticulous as desired (yet really quick).

5) Re-request. Please add SHIFT modifier for (customary) rectilinear lines, perfect circles, etc..

Please ask for details if anything is unclear. TY

ddavison
September 16th, 2019, 19:56
@Guaccomole, we have some known issues with layers and in some cases duplicating things. I will point Carl to this thread so he can take a look.

SHIFT already does perfect circles. We are talking internally about the best way to handle straight lines -- but that might end up being paired with Shift in a future update. Thanks for reporting the grid tweaking issue.

Halfront
September 25th, 2019, 04:42
PotA updated maps at this original post:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=452575&viewfull=1#post452575

Feathergale-Spire-Player-Ground-Level
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Level-Three
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Level-Two
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Pinnacle
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Stable-Level
Fane-of-the-Eye-Player (the only thing still trying to figure out is how to handle to foggy pit area [5.04.05 F5 Rust Monster Pit])
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-A-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-B-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-Player
Howling-Caves-Player
Necromancers-Cave-Player
Rivergard-Keep-Player (some fine tuning left around ledges)

ddavison
September 25th, 2019, 14:35
PotA updated maps at this original post:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=452575&viewfull=1#post452575



Thanks @Halfront. I will be sure to check those out.

Zacchaeus
September 26th, 2019, 16:52
If anyone else is working on any maps for any modules can you let me know so that I can keep the first post updated. Also, of course, if you intend to do any maps check the first post to make sure that it isn't already done or in progress.

Acererak
September 28th, 2019, 15:15
Hi,

I would like trying to help you create one or two maps.
I started a test on Sunless Citadel. Still a lot of work to do but first I would like you to confirm this is what you're expecting to not spend time doing useless work :)
Here is the first simple rooms then if you can validate the way I do and/or giving some advices.

I updated file with few more rooms. Let me know if interresting for you I continue ?

29228

ddavison
October 3rd, 2019, 15:56
Hi,

I would like trying to help you create one or two maps.
I started a test on Sunless Citadel. Still a lot of work to do but first I would like you to confirm this is what you're expecting to not spend time doing useless work :)
Here is the first simple rooms then if you can validate the way I do and/or giving some advices.

I updated file with few more rooms. Let me know if interresting for you I continue ?

29228

I checked out the fortress players map and that looks excellent for the part you have done so far. Well done.

ddavison
October 3rd, 2019, 16:28
PotA updated maps at this original post:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=452575&viewfull=1#post452575

Feathergale-Spire-Player-Ground-Level
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Level-Three
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Level-Two
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Pinnacle
Feathergale-Spire-Player-Stable-Level
Fane-of-the-Eye-Player (the only thing still trying to figure out is how to handle to foggy pit area [5.04.05 F5 Rust Monster Pit])
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-A-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-B-Player
Halls-of-the-Hunting-Axe-Player
Howling-Caves-Player
Necromancers-Cave-Player
Rivergard-Keep-Player (some fine tuning left around ledges)

Hey Halfront, I have a few suggestions on your map.
Fane of the Eye
General notes - zoom in to look for overlaps and collapse those into each other so it "appears" that there are fewer point. The program I use to extract the final points will replace any duplicate points so performance should be better and the result will be a bit cleaner. See examples:

Your version of a door:
29267

My version of the door:
29268


To fix this, just go into selection mode, single click the point and drag it until it snaps onto the other point. My extraction tool will delete the duplicate point. Note that you can also use the delete, but this takes longer on a big map.

For Terrain usage, please note that walls prevent entering. In the example below, you have a columnthat can be climbed; however, they can't climb onto the top. I would redo it like below.

Your version:
29265
My suggested version:
29266


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvesE5hHXMQ

Kanbie
October 6th, 2019, 23:11
I finally have time to devote to this project. Is there any organization to this Crowd Sourcing such that I can direct my attentions to a few maps? I wouldn't mind checking out Tomb of Horrors and seeing If I can't convert that but I would rather work on unclaimed battle maps first.

Zacchaeus
October 6th, 2019, 23:37
I finally have time to devote to this project. Is there any organization to this Crowd Sourcing such that I can direct my attentions to a few maps? I wouldn't mind checking out Tomb of Horrors and seeing If I can't convert that but I would rather work on unclaimed battle maps first.
See the first post in this thread.

Acererak
October 10th, 2019, 22:03
Hi,
I nearly finished a first version of Fortress Map.
29350

I think there is some slight details to fix/enhence but it become impossible to handle on my environment. Performence decrease as walls numbers and points increase :-(

I'll post my issues in another discussion.
Let me know if the map will be useful to you, I will start groove as soon as possible.

Guoccamole
October 14th, 2019, 23:12
A few suggestions after doing some more mapping.

1) Please make terrain lay down a line (not a closed shape). The spurious closing line is counter-productive when plotting a stairway, or cliff, ledge, and on complex rooftops. It’s also inconsistent with the ‘line’ selection. Perhaps add a ‘polygon’ selection for that behavior.
2) Please add single letter keyboard shortcuts to all the mapping modes, so mouse is not required to change modes. Easy mode access is key, especially for the simple pointer which would be very valuable to flip on/off at will.
3) Please support general text input from windows devices. I have a drawing device whose input seems to be ignored by FGU even though normal mouse/keyboard input works. (pie in the sky?)

Thank you!

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 03:54
FGU Mapmaking Feature suggestion - Map triggers (automated, or manual hidden door triggered) + layer visibility reveals.

I can think of (at least) two triggers which could help with some maps (simple multi-layered maps). Some maps have tunnels below or bridges above existing rooms creating vertical conflicts for 2D maps. Such conflicts make the player map problematic since there’s no way (currently) to show one room without the map revealing too much (the tunnel or the bridge outlines from above or below conflict). However, if FGU had map triggers, and those triggers could (e.g.) reveal a new layer by flipping its visibility from off to on, then the extra information could ‘magically’ appear when appropriate. In the case of a tunnel, the trigger could be a magic door, or presence of vision a certain distance into the tunnel entrance. For a bridge, it could be character crossing the bridge. Once these events occur, they flip the visibility bit of a (very small) map from off to on, and voila! The secret tunnel or hidden bridge is now revealed. It’s still extra information since two rooms may be connected or associated in ways the PCs did not realize, but at least its hidden until both the original room and the hidden features are both discovered.

Either of these situations could be triggered by GM opening a specific trigger ‘secret door’ manually. So secret doors could be triggers as well. And the secret doors could be invisible ones, so they’re just there as convenient buttons for the GM to press to reveal the secret at appropriate time. (The automated triggers, above, could be added later.) The nice thing about these triggers + visibility switch is the map maker could arrange the map for the reveal using (automation or) familiar ‘opening’ secret door by GM, and the GM would not need to fiddle with map layers to make happen. Easy to use, yet very powerful for layered information on 2D maps.

For example, this trigger+reveal combo would solve a problem with two different rooms on the map, “Dragon Hatchery”, from “Hoard of the Dragon Queen”. (“Lost Mine of Phandelver” also features a bridge overhead, for another example.) The Dragon Hatchery map is great and detailed and simple (enough), but it packs multiple levels of area onto one map creating a couple (simple) overlay conflicts. Very cool for the creative (and perhaps realistic) setting, but not so great cartographer (and FGU) trying to hide information until proper discovery. (The current player map punts, and just shows the ‘hidden’ information... so not really a fully player map.)

With these features (trigger + layer visibility mechanism), Fantasy Grounds could provide simple tools for FGU cartographers to solve sticky map issues yet keep the playtime simple and familiar (or automated) for the GM.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 04:23
A nice feature would be... While mapping, if you select all the points of a line (et al.), and click on a different visibility type, it would be nice if FGU switched that line (et al.) from the original type to the new type, facilitating tweaking of existing maps quickly, easily, less redo, and less error-prone.


Here are some thoughts I shared with Zacchaeus already for the Alley maps in Waterdeep Dragon Heist. The map has a bunch of roof lines. Using terrain provides some interesting options for simulating hiding on the other side of a pitched roof. The GM may need to turn on and off roof terrain pieces during play to handle specific scenarios, but it gives some fun options.

Original map with walls drawn. No ability to get up on roofs. Players leaving the map would accidentally see to the other side.
28961

If you redo each major plane of the roof, you get some simulated 3D effects. Players can actually see much of the roof from the ground -- at least for roof lines that are facing them directly. Players can also climb up to a roof, bust through a basement window/door and enter buildings or fly up there.
28962

In play:
28963

These sort of scenarios are almost always going to fall to the person creating the adventure conversion and what they think makes the most sense. As a GM, you can always override the built in LOS by double-clicking to select LOS definitions you don't like and replacing them with something you prefer.

ddavison
October 15th, 2019, 14:55
Thanks Guoccamole for your suggestions. See my responses below.



A few suggestions after doing some more mapping.

1) Please make terrain lay down a line (not a closed shape). The spurious closing line is counter-productive when plotting a stairway, or cliff, ledge, and on complex rooftops. It’s also inconsistent with the ‘line’ selection. Perhaps add a ‘polygon’ selection for that behavior.


My understanding from Carl is that the method used to handle these in the visibility engine requires that terrain be a closed polygon. Once you know that it needs to be a polygon, I find it to be very intuitive. The "closing" line is continually redrawn as you add additional points and when you reach the 2nd to last point on the line, it takes its final appearance. For something like a complex cliff, you need to determine how far along the cliff edge is visible from the ground and also how far back from the cliff edge people can be before they can see the ground on the other side. I tend to think that a 5' buffer is appropriate in most cases. This 100% needs to be a closed polygon to make sense for stuff like that.


A few suggestions after doing some more mapping.
2) Please add single letter keyboard shortcuts to all the mapping modes, so mouse is not required to change modes. Easy mode access is key, especially for the simple pointer which would be very valuable to flip on/off at will.


I'm generally a fan of keyboard shortcuts wherever possible and multiple ways to interact with a program (mouse, keyboard, mouse+keyboard). We will see what John and Carl think about this and if we can come up with some that make sense and don't negatively impact other areas. One of the challenges is that we don't currently have the concept of a window with focus. If we set it to T for terrain mode, but you were trying to type in chat, then every time you typed the letter T in chat it would change. That leads to options such as CTR+T or ALT+T, but then we need to review against all other shortcuts to avoid clashes. We will review and report back at a later date.


A few suggestions after doing some more mapping.
3) Please support general text input from windows devices. I have a drawing device whose input seems to be ignored by FGU even though normal mouse/keyboard input works. (pie in the sky?)

ddavison
October 15th, 2019, 15:03
FGU Mapmaking Feature suggestion - Map triggers (automated, or manual hidden door triggered) + layer visibility reveals.
With these features (trigger + layer visibility mechanism), Fantasy Grounds could provide simple tools for FGU cartographers to solve sticky map issues yet keep the playtime simple and familiar (or automated) for the GM.

I had submitted some thoughts in a similar vein to Carl and John for consideration a while back to handle things such as teleports. This is when we were designing the secret door functionality. In some cases, there are maps where you go up the stairs on one map and then you essentially teleport over to a 2nd map on a new floor. For now, we have opted to stick with a simple implementation of the secret doors that works much like current doors and then we will handle jumps by having the GM Shift+drag the tokens to the destination.

I plan to revisit the idea of triggers in the future since I think they open up a lot of new functionality. The UI for defining these would need to be pretty involved to allow for all the different types of flexibility. It's too much scope creep for the current phase of development.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 15:19
Doug, Thank you for rapid, thoughtful replies. I have a few observations based on your information.



My understanding from Carl is that the method used to handle these in the visibility engine requires that terrain be a closed polygon. Once you know that it needs to be a polygon, I find it to be very intuitive. The "closing" line is continually redrawn as you add additional points and when you reach the 2nd to last point on the line, it takes its final appearance. For something like a complex cliff, you need to determine how far along the cliff edge is visible from the ground and also how far back from the cliff edge people can be before they can see the ground on the other side. I tend to think that a 5' buffer is appropriate in most cases. This 100% needs to be a closed polygon to make sense for stuff like that.


Hmmm... the editor allows me to make ‘broken’ terrain (edges, instead of polygons). Also, the first segment is meaningless then (just a line)?
I would suggest preventing any creation which is not polygon then, and I would suggest shading the interior since apparently that means something? Up to now, I thought terrain worked like a permeable wall. I did not know it had extra meaning. Interesting.



I'm generally a fan of keyboard shortcuts wherever possible and multiple ways to interact with a program (mouse, keyboard, mouse+keyboard). We will see what John and Carl think about this and if we can come up with some that make sense and don't negatively impact other areas. One of the challenges is that we don't currently have the concept of a window with focus. If we set it to T for terrain mode, but you were trying to type in chat, then every time you typed the letter T in chat it would change. That leads to options such as CTR+T or ALT+T, but then we need to review against all other shortcuts to avoid clashes. We will review and report back at a later date.


I see what you’re saying. Challenging. The reason for my simple characters request is that I am having trouble getting FGU to recognize input at all from windows device, so I’d prefer to keep the input super-simple rather than even more complicated. Getting the device buttons to work in FGU would be a boon... to avoid having one hand on the keyboard (by necessity) while using a pen with buttons that FGU won’t recognize... for whatever reason. However, I see your point about the windowing input ambiguity.

Thank you for the insights. More to chew on.

Zacchaeus
October 15th, 2019, 15:35
Hmmm... the editor allows me to make ‘broken’ terrain (edges, instead of polygons). Also, the first segment is meaningless then (just a line)?
I would suggest preventing any creation which is not polygon then, and I would suggest shading the interior since apparently that means something? Up to now, I thought terrain worked like a permeable wall. I did not know it had extra meaning. Interesting

I'm not sure it does allow a broken terrain. If you draw a jagged line with four points and end on the fiftyh point a line is drawn from that point back to the first. Depending on how the line is drawn this might not be immediately noticeable. As Doug says to draw an irregular shaped terrain use the line shape to trace the contour and then place points back to the first. So for a contour of a hill I'd draw the points along the contour and then point back to the first point to close up the polygon. When LOS is turned on the players will be able to see the leading edge of the polygon but not be able to see what is beyond until they enter the polygon. THis emulates the player climbing thee hill and seeing over the ridge at the top at what lies beyond.

For stairs I either use the square tool or just the line tool to draw a square or rectangle across the width of the stairs. As long as the sides line up with the wall line then you get no leakage and the terrain is blocked until a token ventures up the stairs.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 15:41
I had submitted some thoughts in a similar vein to Carl and John for consideration a while back to handle things such as teleports. This is when we were designing the secret door functionality. In some cases, there are maps where you go up the stairs on one map and then you essentially teleport over to a 2nd map on a new floor. For now, we have opted to stick with a simple implementation of the secret doors that works much like current doors and then we will handle jumps by having the GM Shift+drag the tokens to the destination.

I plan to revisit the idea of triggers in the future since I think they open up a lot of new functionality. The UI for defining these would need to be pretty involved to allow for all the different types of flexibility. It's too much scope creep for the current phase of development.

IMO...

I understand the scope creep issue, which is why I suggested the simplistic yet pragmatic door ‘fix’.

FYI, the mapping issue I raise is different than teleport. In this case, the map is 1) visually leaking information (about areas undiscovered), and 2) the PC tokens are already in location (really “in locations” since there are two locations colocated on the map; no dragging required). Hence the visibility toggle to reveal additional information about the existing map, i.e., bridge/tunnel above and/or tunnel below.

Also, my suggestion is beneficial to map conversion... which is happening now presumably by the thousands of maps. I believe mapmaking should be a priority as its a huge undertaking, and giving map converters the tools they need to deal with simple yet frequent (enough) map features would be important... rather than having to redo maps later for ‘simple stuff’.

In other words, I suggested the door trigger + map layer reveal since it’s not much of a technical challenge (trigger would be DM interaction on existing ‘secret door’ mechanism) and because I believe it would help get SmiteWorks over the hump on map conversion now, rather than have lots of loose ends (on maps which are close but not quite right). I realize the maps have worked ‘as-is’ up to now, but the new tools should afford us advantages. This trigger+reveal would be one such example, and a good trial for (simple) triggers helping with maps.

I don’t know if map conversion outweighs scope creep in this instance, but I think the map conversion effort is a rather huge undertaking not to be taken lightly. So perhaps that perspective could weigh in favor of helping with map conversion despite a ‘minor’ (?) scope creep.

Whether this feature is scheduled now or later, I’d suggest prioritizing this feature according to map support rather than ‘teleport’.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 15:50
I'm not sure it does allow a broken terrain.

TY for illustrating how you make terrain work with your examples.

You could be correct about the lack of ‘broken’ lines. Perhaps my ‘broken’ terrain is lines which double-back on themselves?

Before replying what works and what doesn’t, I’m going to have to experiment to see what’s happening with the way I’ve been doing it... treating the terrain like a wall at, e.g., the edge of a cliff or the banister of a stairway. I am particularly interested in what’s happening inside any terrain polygon. I did not realize that space was special.

ddavison
October 15th, 2019, 16:55
Here is an example of how you might do the Dragon Hatchery map.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29404&d=1571154877


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpaUojfIFCw

29404

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 17:10
Questions. Apologies if these are stupid questions, but I don’t seem to be having much luck (skill?) for now.

1) What is the trick to get a player FGU to connect to a GM FGU (locally, lobby, whatever)?
2) If FGU player is not yet available, then what is the trick to checking LOS in GM FGU?

Thanks.

ddavison
October 15th, 2019, 17:19
Questions. Apologies if these are stupid questions, but I don’t seem to be having much luck (skill?) for now.

1) What is the trick to get a player FGU to connect to a GM FGU (locally, lobby, whatever)?
2) If FGU player is not yet available, then what is the trick to checking LOS in GM FGU?

Thanks.

Make sure you have the latest update first. Once you have that, you will host a game (Private game is best) and then you will launch a 2nd instance of FGU. Click Join Game and you should see your localhost entry to connect to. Just click it and then Start.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 17:26
Doug: Thank you for the video. Just noticed it (after my previous post). Watching it now.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 17:47
Make sure you have the latest update first. Once you have that, you will host a game (Private game is best) and then you will launch a 2nd instance of FGU. Click Join Game and you should see your localhost entry to connect to. Just click it and then Start.

I updated FGU (though I think it was up-to-date already). Is there a way to see version number?

No joy. I tried

1) Server Type: Local
Server List: Private

2) Server Type: Cloud
Server List: Private

without any game showing in ‘Lobby Campaigns’ list for player instance. I am using “GM” as the ‘GM Name’, in case that matters.
I also tried searching hosted games by “GM”, IPv4 address, and “localhost” without success.

FYI, I am still getting “[ERROR] License check failed” on startup, in case that matters.

Any other tips? TY

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 18:11
Doug:

TY very much for your video which was very educational. Unfortunately, I can not get player FGU instance running to experiment on my side (yet).

FYI:

For terrain functionality, I can see how area of terrain is supposed to work. However, I think the line of terrain approach is more common and (at least) equally useful and perhaps less troublesome. For instance, the area of terrain hijacks visibility of perfectly visible areas (as in video) and collides with adjacent terrain (as in video). Line of terrain could function for 5’ (default approach for visibility) by tokens from one or both directions with or without overlaps (no problem).

One direction line terrain would be for cliffs and such (one viewing side has advantage of seeing terrain). On the other hand, dual direction line terrain would grant terrain visibility to either side, e.g., for rooftops and hills. And with line terrain, the terrain would NOT hijack visible terrain

One-way terrain would reveal tokens within LOS on far side of terrain approach (e.g., arakocra at cliffside) yet hide their terrain. Looking up, tokens could see arakocra but not its terrain; looking down, arakocra would see everything (tokens and terrain) of those below the cliff.

With two-way line terrain, both tokens and terrain would be immediately visible from either direction.

And the line terrain could use the line tool. Area terrain could use the square (polygon anyone?) tool.

I don’t particularly like the current area terrain approach because it’s fiddly (specifying an area unnecessarily (?) which could be covered by 5’ default + direction(s) automatically), hides too much map (such as non-terrain which should be perfectly visible on same level), creates collisions (adjacent terrains), and also tends toward hiding key informative terrain, such as cliff face and key visual cues such as cliff edges. Often the map edges (cliff edge, stairway railing) tell the visual story of why the hiding, so they’re important. By covering key visual terrain cues, I think the area terrain approach reduces visual understanding. I think the line terrain would be easier and less fiddly to setup (no area required), doesn’t hide as much unnecessarily, no troublesome conflicts, is more ‘natural’ (cues visible), and more suitable to common cases.

At least, that’s how I’ve been imagining the terrain tool worked, and I think it’d be simpler than the area terrain approach in the video (and more appropriate to using line tool).

I don’t know if it’s too late to ‘simplify’ the terrain tool, or add a line terrain to the area terrain approach, but I hope my perspective is useful for consideration.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 18:35
If area terrain had a way to reveal a layer of a map, then area terrain could be used to solve the colocation problem I address separately (above), and specifying trigger area would have key value (for tight LOS directionality control). There would need to be a way of specifying which (small) layer to reveal. The area terrain LOS could specify an area (e.g., adjacent, approaching the hidden terrain feature) where tokens would trigger visibility of a (small) layer which would (transparency enabled) superimpose itself on their map to reveal a new terrain feature (e.g., bridge above, or tunnel below, or cave above/below neighboring area).

So if area terrain had that feature, it would solve my colocation problem with some maps having ‘too much’ information on the same spots. I would gladly use area terrain to solve that problem.

PS: This version of area terrain could also be useful to create a windowed or barred doorway (a wall with visibility from certain area).

ddavison
October 15th, 2019, 19:46
Generally, if I can see you, then it means that you can also see me. The system also does not know that you want to see 5' beyond the line but no further. That is what the polygons do. They provide the amount of depth you want to provide. There are definitely scenarios that produce some awkward results, but that is ultimately why we added the ability to turn them on or off.

Things like bridges are difficult to do with a single 2D map. There is no way to walk under the bridge. We also don't have the graphics for what it looks like under the bridge. If you were building your own map, you could have a bridge crossing overhead on a separate layer, but the tokens still all move on a single layer. The tokens don't currently know that they are on the bridge layer or the ground layer or how those two layers would interact. It gets really complicated really quickly -- so it is something that will probably remain abstract for the time being.

Guoccamole
October 15th, 2019, 21:57
Doug, I wasn’t going anywhere as complicated as you suggest. Just trying to keep it simple.

Many maps have 3D elements on 2D maps. As I mentioned “Dragon Hatchery” has both a bridge (overhead tunnel, actually) and an underground cave on a 2D map. I’m not looking for graphics bling. I’m just trying to get existing maps to work and take advantage of tools in FGU. That’s how my terrain approach was intended. In other words, the layers are for reveal, not for overhead/underground bling. Just plain terrain feature reveal.

I guess one problem I have is that I do not see the advantage of specifying area for an LOS edge. Rooftop has area. Cliff edge has no area. I can specify a rooftop with a set of lines. Specifying a cliff edge, or castle edge, or bridge edge, or stairs railing by area is fiddly and leads to problems.

Hence my suggestion for line terrain approach. Fewer complications, not more. (And not trying to do any tricky graphics.)

Apologies if my proposal was misleading. Perhaps consider the line terrain proposal in the simpler context of ‘good enough’ and less complex than area terrain. (The area terrain could still have its uses, as I point out in addendum.)

Halfront
October 18th, 2019, 05:14
My apologizes for lack of map updates. I have had my last bit of eye surgery and am almost back to seeing like a normal person :)

Guoccamole
October 20th, 2019, 04:29
I have just updated D&D 5E “Hoard of the Dragon Queen” post (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=450748&viewfull=1#post450748) with the complete, final (for now) “Hoard of the Dragon Queen” Player maps.

Please let me know if you find any shortcomings, oversights, comments, suggestions, or questions.

TY

Acererak
October 21st, 2019, 16:06
Hi,

I'm now working on Sunless Citadel's Grove map and have no idea how to handle stairs and subterran in this part of the map :(
Any advice ?

29515

ddavison
October 21st, 2019, 16:11
Hi,

I'm now working on Sunless Citadel's Grove map and have no idea how to handle stairs and subterran in this part of the map :(
Any advice ?

29515

I don't recall if those stairs lead to an underground passage beneath the octagon shaped room or if they go into the octagon shaped room. If they go into the octagon shaped room, then you just remove the solid walls there and have it go right into stairs with terrain covering the stairs. This would let people see onto the stairs from the octagon room and people on the stairs would see the landing above the stairs and the octagon rooms.

If it goes underneath, then solid walls like you have is fine and then to move from one side to the other, the GM would have to Shift+drag the PCs from one end of the tunnel to the next. They would not be "visible" on the map during that time and it would not reveal the octagon room as they moved from one stair to the other stair, underneath the octagon room.

Acererak
October 21st, 2019, 17:29
I finished this first version of Sunless Citadel, Fortress and Grove players' maps.

29518

Let me know if any remark, improvement or any fix needed.

Acererak
October 23rd, 2019, 12:30
Hi,

If you're happy with my previous maps I'm starting Tomb of Horrors ones from Tales of Yawning Portal.

Zacchaeus
October 23rd, 2019, 13:43
This looks good. I might consider adding a terrain wall separating area 31 and 32 and also the one that bisects area 33. I think the columns in areas 19 and 39 should be walls rather than terrain and possibly add a terrain circle covering the purple area in the middle of Area 41 to represent the shaft. You may also want to block off the tunnel that leads out of area 23 otherwise the players could 'escape' the map and see too much. (I'd just take a line all the way around the edge of the map too).

Edit: I forgot the grove map :)

Block off the passage leading out of area 43 and again I'd take a line around the edge of the map. I'd debate the use of terrain for the walls in areas 55 and 56 - I'd argue walls. I'd also consider whether the 'bushes' should be terrain. I'd probably go with terrain and let the DM decide whether they were high enough to block LOS and switch them off if they didn't think so (the area description is unclear on just how high the vegetation is). I think the Gulthius tree should be terrain.

Acererak
October 24th, 2019, 13:23
Hi,

Here is updated version for the two maps : 29553


This looks good. I might consider adding a terrain wall separating area 31 and 32 and also the one that bisects area 33. I think the columns in areas 19 and 39 should be walls rather than terrain and possibly add a terrain circle covering the purple area in the middle of Area 41 to represent the shaft. You may also want to block off the tunnel that leads out of area 23 otherwise the players could 'escape' the map and see too much. (I'd just take a line all the way around the edge of the map too).
I added terrain walls to areas 31,32,33. I first did not include them because they where specified as 2 feet high. I did not think about halfling or other gnomes :). Do you think more than the wall itself we need to materialize small part of the floor behing the 2 feet wall that can't be seen ? Or maybe let Dm's add their own LOS layers if they want. Same for circle in the middle of area 41, walls around the shaft are small ones, not really blocking LOS to me. I added wall to avoid character escape :).
Regarding columns, my choice was more turned on visual aspect and not only LOS. Using terrain allow to see inside column and seemed pretty to me instead of seeing black holes on his map on player side. The same I did for statues for example, block LOS but can see statue itself. Let me know if you still prefer I replace by walls


Block off the passage leading out of area 43 and again I'd take a line around the edge of the map. I'd debate the use of terrain for the walls in areas 55 and 56 - I'd argue walls. I'd also consider whether the 'bushes' should be terrain. I'd probably go with terrain and let the DM decide whether they were high enough to block LOS and switch them off if they didn't think so (the area description is unclear on just how high the vegetation is). I think the Gulthius tree should be terrain.
I blocked escape passages on this one. Also I added all bushes as terrain.
Regarding walls in this particular areas, same remark as for columns, it was more to take oportunity to block LOS but still give players side a more pleasant map representation without unnecessary black lines in the middle of the room as obviously no hidden passage could be there.

Let me know if you really prefer columns and ruins to be walls instead of terrains.

Zacchaeus
October 24th, 2019, 14:50
No I don't think you need to do anything more for the areas 31-33. I was going just by the descriptions of the beasties hiding behind them and surprising the PCs. I'd go along with your view on the pillars and walls elsewhere; I, too, use terrain for statues on the basis that characters might climb on them. Another consideration is that walls not only block LOS but block the token from moving beyond them, so your premise that a ruined wall might be climbed on is valid. Not so much floor to ceiling pillars but then it's not game breaking to have those as terrain.

Guoccamole
October 27th, 2019, 04:19
Dangling question: What is the trick to connect FGU Join with FGU Host? I tried local private, cloud public, and cloud private. I tried each of those with the defaults (empty fields). I also tried "localhost", local <ip.4.ad.dr>, and "DM". I refreshed and no host every showed up. And I tried Join'ing (without any host listed) without luck; the result was the same as when I tried to connect to a non-existent local IP4 address. Lobby always says "Connected", but Join list is always empty.

So... does FGU Host/Join work yet (on same computer)? If so, what settings do you use? Cloud|Local?, Public|Private?, 1802?, GM Name empty?, Password empty?, or suggestions???


I updated FGU (though I think it was up-to-date already). Is there a way to see version number?

No joy. I tried

1) Server Type: Local
Server List: Private

2) Server Type: Cloud
Server List: Private

without any game showing in ‘Lobby Campaigns’ list for player instance. I am using “GM” as the ‘GM Name’, in case that matters.
I also tried searching hosted games by “GM”, IPv4 address, and “localhost” without success.

FYI, I am still getting “[ERROR] License check failed” on startup, in case that matters.

Any other tips? TY

Kelrugem
October 27th, 2019, 04:27
Dangling question: What is the trick to connect FGU Join with FGU Host? I tried local private, cloud public, and cloud private. I tried each of those with the defaults (empty fields). I also tried "localhost", local <ip.4.ad.dr>, and "DM". I refreshed and no host every showed up. And I tried Join'ing (without any host listed) without luck; the result was the same as when I tried to connect to a non-existent local IP4 address. Lobby always says "Connected", but Join list is always empty.

So... does FGU Host/Join work yet (on same computer)? If so, what settings do you use? Cloud|Local?, Public|Private?, 1802?, GM Name empty?, Password empty?, or suggestions???

I use Server Type: Cloud, Server List: Public and then I just join myself clicking on my campaign in the Join Campaign list (no need for IP, localhost etc.) :)

Guoccamole
October 27th, 2019, 04:53
@Kelrugem: TY for such a lightning and to the point response. I am now using Cloud+Public. And I hit "REFRESH" to get my campaign to show up in the "Lobby Campaigns" window. Unfortunately, still no joy. My campaign does not magically appear, nor with REFRESH.

As an aside (?), when I start FGU, I still get an error about the license. Is that still true for everyone, or is there (perhaps) a problem with my installation? Yes, I'm fishing but...

Thx for your help.

FG_Dave
October 27th, 2019, 04:55
There are some networking tweaks that are being made so there may be some issues hosting/joining games. I believe this was mentioned in the Closed Beta post that was made on the Kickstarter page last week.

Guoccamole
October 27th, 2019, 05:00
@Dave: OK, I shall keep an eye out for updates with any network fixes/tweaks.
@Kelrugem: TY for the magic Host/Join networking incantation that works.

Kelrugem
October 27th, 2019, 05:01
@Dave: OK, I shall keep an eye out for an update.
@Kelrugem: TY for the magic Host/Join networking incantation that works.

You're welcome :) To your other question: I do not get any error about my license and never had so far (at least I do not remember any anymore :D)

Guoccamole
October 27th, 2019, 05:04
I do not get any error about my license and never had so far (at least I do not remember any anymore :D)

Hmm, I wonder why my license issue is still lingering, and whether that could prevent the FGU cloud from listing my game? Thx again.

Zacchaeus
October 27th, 2019, 10:21
I think you may need to uninstall and reinstall Unity; you shouldn't have these issues. You may need to get John to send you a new msi. Some did have an issue with the installer when first released, but as far as I'm aware this has been fixed.

Guoccamole
October 27th, 2019, 15:01
I think you may need to uninstall and reinstall Unity; you shouldn't have these issues. You may need to get John to send you a new msi. Some did have an issue with the installer when first released, but as far as I'm aware this has been fixed.

@Zacchaeus: Good idea. Sounds like I may be the only one still having this issue. Will do.

Guoccamole
October 27th, 2019, 16:07
FIXED. In the course of trying to lookup how to fresh install FGU, I discovered that I was somehow given the FGC license key for my FGU license key by SmiteWorks (email support exchange, typo presumably). Unfortunately, this mix-up made the FGC key appear to be a valid key (since it was FGC), but the wrong key.

However, my correct FGU license is at the top of my FG order history. So I 1) updated FGU to my FGU license key, and verified my FG login credentials on the FGU Settings screen. (No FGU reinstall.) And FGU now stars up
without any license error (for the first time for me!). The error message was correct all this time, even if it was buggy in the beginning!-)

Also, I have now gotten the 2nd instance of FGU to connect! Woo-hoo. So license key was a stumbling block for the FGU connections problem.

@Kelrugem and @Zacchaeus, TY for all your helpful insights and patient help.

Moon Wizard
October 28th, 2019, 01:24
You can not host a network game without a valid license key; so that was definitely the issue.

Regards,
JPG

stewartl42
October 29th, 2019, 03:29
I'm happy to help with Curse of Strahd.

FG_Dave
October 29th, 2019, 08:48
I'm happy to help with Curse of Strahd.

Hey Stewart! Send me a message here on the forums and well coordinate our efforts.

H2Os
October 29th, 2019, 19:24
I'm going to try my hand at the Acquisitions Inc maps.

Edit: I am going to withdraw my offer to do the Acq Inc maps for now. I'm having all kind of LOS issues and until I understand what is going on I'm not sure what to do.

graziano.girelli
October 29th, 2019, 19:43
Well, yesterday night i download FGU, installed, retreived my license without problems, made upgrades.
Them when i start to host a game, i try 5E sample campaign, then i try to create AD&D ruleset campaign.
In both cases, i'm stucked at "starting private server".
Did i miss some passage?

The High Druid
October 29th, 2019, 20:08
Well, yesterday night i download FGU, installed, retreived my license without problems, made upgrades.
Them when i start to host a game, i try 5E sample campaign, then i try to create AD&D ruleset campaign.
In both cases, i'm stucked at "starting private server".
Did i miss some passage?

You'll probably want to start your own thread if you're having a problem. This one is for maps, so any replies you get will get lost in the map chatter.

graziano.girelli
October 29th, 2019, 20:47
You'll probably want to start your own thread if you're having a problem. This one is for maps, so any replies you get will get lost in the map chatter.

Uoppsss...
sorry! my fault. Excuse me.

Paperclipkiller
October 29th, 2019, 22:25
If we notice a map that is marked as done is missing secret doors, do we report it here or somewhere else? I know the Redbrand hideout in LMOP is missing a few from some LOS testing last night.
I saw in the first post that some modules were done in an earlier version of FGU, we don't know which ones though beyond LMOP.

Zacchaeus
October 29th, 2019, 22:35
If we notice a map that is marked as done is missing secret doors, do we report it here or somewhere else? I know the Redbrand hideout in LMOP is missing a few from some LOS testing last night.
I saw in the first post that some modules were done in an earlier version of FGU, we don't know which ones though beyond LMOP.

I keep the first post up to date with modules which are done and those which are in progress and who is doing them (as far as I know of course - if people don't say anything then I don't know).

If you see issues with any maps which are in the list above as done then do, please, report them.

ddavison
October 30th, 2019, 01:23
If we notice a map that is marked as done is missing secret doors, do we report it here or somewhere else? I know the Redbrand hideout in LMOP is missing a few from some LOS testing last night.
I saw in the first post that some modules were done in an earlier version of FGU, we don't know which ones though beyond LMOP.

We have these ready to go and we just pushed them into test. It should add the secret doors for Redbrand Hideout.

Allmight
October 30th, 2019, 13:32
I am currently working on the maps for Pathfinder 2´s Age of Ashes AP, currently working on Hellknight Hill. I will share them here when done if no one else have made them by the time i am done.

H2Os
October 30th, 2019, 13:43
How are you guys working on LOS, I spent about 40 mins yesterday trying to LOS and when I would compete a section and hit enter it would disappear and would be on some random map.

Allmight
October 30th, 2019, 13:49
How are you guys working on LOS, I spent about 40 mins yesterday trying to LOS and when I would compete a section and hit enter it would disappear and would be on some random map.

I just followed the instructions in the new wiki for FGU.

https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/327681/Map+Line+of+Sight+Style+Guide

Zacchaeus
October 30th, 2019, 14:37
I am currently working on the maps for Pathfinder 2´s Age of Ashes AP, currently working on Hellknight Hill. I will share them here when done if no one else have made them by the time i am done.

Thanks; I've added this to Post #1

revanmaster
October 30th, 2019, 20:32
Not sure if anyone said this, but I'm doing the maps for Scourge of the Sword Coast, and we're not doing dm maps I'm guessing.

Zacchaeus
October 30th, 2019, 22:42
Not sure if anyone said this, but I'm doing the maps for Scourge of the Sword Coast, and we're not doing dm maps I'm guessing.

No DM Maps don't need LOS. I've updated Post #1

Falselight
October 30th, 2019, 23:14
is there a link to the XML files for the maps somewhere i sorry if i missed it. Or do you incorporate into the MODS. If so how often do you update them i don't want to make a LOS if it is done already for Dotmm.

Zacchaeus
October 30th, 2019, 23:26
is there a link to the XML files for the maps somewhere i sorry if i missed it. Or do you incorporate into the MODS. If so how often do you update them i don't want to make a LOS if it is done already for Dotmm.
DotMM is being worked on as you can see from the first post. I’m updating (the 5e) modules with the xml for the occluders as and when I get them. If you want to help I’d suggest choosing a module that is not mentioned in post #1.

revanmaster
October 31st, 2019, 00:55
That should be all the maps, but not really seen any other maps to fix up.

PS: Had to redo something that got deleted from the last time I did something with the manor, which is weird(guessing a glitch).

pollux
October 31st, 2019, 05:10
Starting to take a crack at FG Battle Maps, which don't seem to have LoS defined yet. Just took a pass at BattleMap_Cave01.jpg so far, but will try to get through the others.

One thing I'm finding confusing so far is that when I'm trying to close the loop on my occluder lines, the points don't seem to always snap to each other. I think I do have the snap magnet enabled (it's color is dark), and sometimes I get a snap. But other times I don't. I've tried to test moving a token around to ensure that there are no gaps, but the snapping-to-occluder-point behavior does seem confusing.

jadedragonette
October 31st, 2019, 07:13
When the missing assets for Out of the Abyss get taken care of, I'll start taking a look at them for LoS - in the meantime, I'll hold off given that it's the only Fantasy Grounds Adventure module I have purchased.

EDIT: For clarification's sake, I have already posted a report on the missing assets in Out of the Abyss.

Zacchaeus
October 31st, 2019, 21:39
Hi,

Here is updated version for the two maps : 29553.

I've added your occluder files to the Sunless Citadel module. I don't know when it'll get updated on the system but probably next Tuesday.

GarthGiantbane
October 31st, 2019, 22:35
Hey all,

Here's my first go at the LOS stuff.

I picked the Forge of Fury from the TYP book. It has a lot of challenges - walls not lining up with the grid, arrow ports and rough mountain wall terrain. I made secret style doors for the arrow ports. That made sense to me - for the characters outside, they are sort of hidden and maybe not found. Once they reach the inside then they can all be opened for looking out the ports.

Questions about the LOS tools -
1. Is there a better way to move the map around inside the edit window rather than using the yellow icon on the bottom right?
2. Once a line is terminated, is there a key-click combo to resume drawing that line instead of creating a new origin point?
LOS use in general -
3. The LOS seems to light up as far as the map allows before it hits another border. Will we still need the mask in conjunction with the LOS? How else to restrict the reveal to 60' on average?

If this one is doable (as is or with suggested corrections), I'll continue with the rest of the module maps.

H2Os
October 31st, 2019, 22:40
Hey all,

Here's my first go at the LOS stuff.

I picked the Forge of Fury from the TYP book. It has a lot of challenges - walls not lining up with the grid, arrow ports and rough mountain wall terrain. I made secret style doors for the arrow ports. That made sense to me - for the characters outside, they are sort of hidden and maybe not found. Once they reach the inside then they can all be opened for looking out the ports.

Questions about the LOS tools -
1. Is there a better way to move the map around inside the edit window rather than using the yellow icon on the bottom right?

You can move the map around with your arrow keys or middle mouse button as well.

Zacchaeus
October 31st, 2019, 22:48
Starting to take a crack at FG Battle Maps, which don't seem to have LoS defined yet. Just took a pass at BattleMap_Cave01.jpg so far, but will try to get through the others.

One thing I'm finding confusing so far is that when I'm trying to close the loop on my occluder lines, the points don't seem to always snap to each other. I think I do have the snap magnet enabled (it's color is dark), and sometimes I get a snap. But other times I don't. I've tried to test moving a token around to ensure that there are no gaps, but the snapping-to-occluder-point behavior does seem confusing.

When the line you are drawing is close to another point it should snap to that point. Make sure that you have the Magnetic Snap to on (which it sounds like you have). Once the line snaps you can double click or press enter to accept the snap.

I'll have a look at your files tomorrow; thanks for getting involved.

Zacchaeus
October 31st, 2019, 23:03
Hey all,

Here's my first go at the LOS stuff.

I picked the Forge of Fury from the TYP book. It has a lot of challenges - walls not lining up with the grid, arrow ports and rough mountain wall terrain. I made secret style doors for the arrow ports. That made sense to me - for the characters outside, they are sort of hidden and maybe not found. Once they reach the inside then they can all be opened for looking out the ports.

Questions about the LOS tools -
1. Is there a better way to move the map around inside the edit window rather than using the yellow icon on the bottom right?
2. Once a line is terminated, is there a key-click combo to resume drawing that line instead of creating a new origin point?
LOS use in general -
3. The LOS seems to light up as far as the map allows before it hits another border. Will we still need the mask in conjunction with the LOS? How else to restrict the reveal to 60' on average?

If this one is doable (as is or with suggested corrections), I'll continue with the rest of the module maps.

Thanks for getting involved; I'll have a look at your files tomorrow. As noted you can use the arrow keys or middle mouse button to move around the map. If you have Magnetic Snap set to on then the start of your new line should snap to the nearest point to your mouse pointer (it needs to be fairly close). LOS is just that it is line of sight; it's not dynamic lighting; so if you want to restrict vision then you will also need to use the mask as well should it be necessary (in most maps something will block line of sight long before 60ft if that's your criteria).

Zacchaeus
October 31st, 2019, 23:11
I have just updated D&D 5E “Hoard of the Dragon Queen” post (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project&p=450748&viewfull=1#post450748) with the complete, final (for now) “Hoard of the Dragon Queen” Player maps.

Please let me know if you find any shortcomings, oversights, comments, suggestions, or questions.

TY

Sorry, I missed your post earlier. I'll have a look at your files tomorrow.

Smoltok
October 31st, 2019, 23:49
Hello,

First at all, How using xml files (available here) inside FGU with a map in order to use/test LOS ? I didn't find any clue :(

Moon Wizard
November 1st, 2019, 00:00
Smoltok,

The files need to be converted into specific XML fragments that sit in XML meta-data files alongside the graphic file. Currently, we are not providing the tools or instructions to do that to the public, because we are still working out the details. If you submit the moduledb XML change files for existing modules, either Zacchaeus or Doug can extract the data and create the files.

In the future, once we're further along; we'll look at releasing a tool for anybody to use for creating XML metadata files for FGU graphics support.

Regards,
JPG

Smoltok
November 1st, 2019, 00:02
Understood ! It is ok like that !

Regards,
Smoltok

Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 00:02
The LOS files are written to an xml file in the moduledb folder in the campaign folder. If you draw some occluders onto a map and save the campaign you will see the file appear there.

pollux
November 1st, 2019, 05:21
Another FG Battlemap:


BattleMap_Cave01: Not meaningfully different than the last time I posted, but I did try to clean up where the line-segments join. I have definitely seen cases where snapping is not occurring as expected in spite of snapping being enabled. In these cases I just zoomed into the map until I could see any movement of a point "snapped" to what presumably is just the most granular point precision available. I think using this technique everything is aligned tightly.
BattleMap_Cave02: Somehow FGU knew that this map was the same layout as Cave01 and automatically grabbed the same occlusion lines.
Battlemap_Cave03: Newly done. For some reason, tokens have vision through parts of the occlusion in the upper-left-hand corner (where the SW logo is), even though it's ONE CONTINUOUS LINE. I didn't interrupt dropping this at all. I relaid this line a second time with no interruptions, and had the same issue the second time. Rather than continue to fiddle with it, I've submitted it in case it's a useful bug-report. It seems like there should be no way to see through an uninterrupted occluder, but that's happening here.

Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 11:44
Another FG Battlemap:


BattleMap_Cave01: Not meaningfully different than the last time I posted, but I did try to clean up where the line-segments join. I have definitely seen cases where snapping is not occurring as expected in spite of snapping being enabled. In these cases I just zoomed into the map until I could see any movement of a point "snapped" to what presumably is just the most granular point precision available. I think using this technique everything is aligned tightly.
BattleMap_Cave02: Somehow FGU knew that this map was the same layout as Cave01 and automatically grabbed the same occlusion lines.
Battlemap_Cave03: Newly done. For some reason, tokens have vision through parts of the occlusion in the upper-left-hand corner (where the SW logo is), even though it's ONE CONTINUOUS LINE. I didn't interrupt dropping this at all. I relaid this line a second time with no interruptions, and had the same issue the second time. Rather than continue to fiddle with it, I've submitted it in case it's a useful bug-report. It seems like there should be no way to see through an uninterrupted occluder, but that's happening here.



I suspect that you experiencing some of the issues that have been reported elsewhere. FG doesn't know that BattleMap_Cave02 is the same layout as one and grab the occluders. What has happened is that the occluders have bled through from another map. As you can see from my image something else has bled through into map 01 from another map. This will also be causing the issues you are having with the tokens seeing through the occluders on map 3 (this also happens at the top left of map one as well).

Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 13:57
Here is my first MODULE MAPPING adding FGU Line of Sight (LOS) for:

"Hoard of the Dragon Queen"(D&D 5E).
LOS Player Maps:

27 Players maps - complete, some quite huge.

Please let me know if you notice any shortcomings/oversights, or have any comments, suggestions, or questions.
TY!

Hey Guoccamole. thanks for having a go at these. I've got a few suggestions for you which I think can improve upon things a little. I've attached some before and after images to illustrate better what I mean.

Images 1 and 2: The first image is a small section of the Carnath Roadhouse which illustrates a couple of things. The first is the door. I think we need to have both sides of the door with a wall section rather than joined to the wall by a single point to prevent leakage into the wall when the tokens move through the door. The stair wall on the left I think should be a wall and a terrain square added to simulate the blocking of the top of the stairs from below. There's also a lot less points and no intersections in the second image which makes things tidier and causes less potential problems.
2979029791

Images 3 and 4: I think we need some terrain blockers on this map where the stairs are to block sight on the stairs.
2979229793

Continued in next post due to image upload limit

Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 13:59
Images 5 and 6: This is another before and after showing an area in the Castle Naerytar Map Ground level top left of the castle. I think the battlements should have terrain blockers as shown, and again I've squared off the doors with the walls and used terrain to block LOS on the stairs.

2979529796


Images 7 and 8: I noticed that you are using single lines for some terrain blocking; these should generally be polygons. The best example I found to illustrate this is in the Dragon hatchery. In image 7 the token is at the top of the ledge and should be able to see what's below, but because it's a single line it can't since it can't see through the other side of the terrain. Making the terrain a polygon fixes the issue as you can see in image 8. The token is now inside the terrain and so can see out of the other side and into the area which is below the ledge.

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Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 15:03
Hey all,

Here's my first go at the LOS stuff.

I picked the Forge of Fury from the TYP book. It has a lot of challenges - walls not lining up with the grid, arrow ports and rough mountain wall terrain. I made secret style doors for the arrow ports. That made sense to me - for the characters outside, they are sort of hidden and maybe not found. Once they reach the inside then they can all be opened for looking out the ports.

Questions about the LOS tools -
1. Is there a better way to move the map around inside the edit window rather than using the yellow icon on the bottom right?
2. Once a line is terminated, is there a key-click combo to resume drawing that line instead of creating a new origin point?
LOS use in general -
3. The LOS seems to light up as far as the map allows before it hits another border. Will we still need the mask in conjunction with the LOS? How else to restrict the reveal to 60' on average?

If this one is doable (as is or with suggested corrections), I'll continue with the rest of the module maps.

Hi Garth and thanks for having a go at this. I have some suggestions for improving the occluders for this one.

1. I think the battlements should be terrain pieces rather than secret doors. Secret doors block LOS just like a wall does so you are getting a cut off where you shouldn't be. Using terrain the token can see into the arrow port but not out of it, so the player will know that it's an arrow port and not a wall. See images 1 and 2 which shows what I mean.
2980129802
2. We should have some terrain blocking on the stairs - wherever there are stairs. See image 3 for what I mean.
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3. You've been a bit generous at times with how much wall you are showing and your occluders are quite a bit off the actual wall. Bear in mind that the wall blockers 'leak' a bit and the players will be able to see a portion of what is beyond the line. You can therefore afford to have the line quite close to the edge of the wall and it will still be obvious that it is a wall when the players move their tokens around. Image 3 shows an area where the occluder is too far away from the wall. See also area 12 on the map where I think you have followed the grid lines rather than the wall.
4. I think the bridge over the crevasse could use some terrain occluders as shown in image 4. This will allow the players to just see across the gorge (the description says that the other side is barely visible) but only once they get about halfway across will they be able to see the other side clearly. Adding terrain to the edge of the gorge nearest the double doors also gives the players a sense of the depth of it since they won't be able to see into the crevasse until they move a token to it's edge.
29804
5. The west side of the path leading up to the main gate I think should also be occluded with a terrain occluder. This will give more of a sense of the danger from the drop off. You also want to put walls in around the entire map so that the players don't see outside the map and block off the two exits on the east side of the map (I know those paths go on to another map but as it stands the players will be able to see out of the map.

Allmight
November 1st, 2019, 16:15
Anyone know how to tackle this one?

You should'nt be able to see ontop of the battlements from the ground, but you should be able to see the ground from the battlements. Problem is that the terrain occluder blocks both ways, and if i let the occluder cover a bit of the battlements so a player could stand on it, then that part is also seen from the ground.

Would be nice with an occluder that blocks sight one way but not the other.
29807

ddavison
November 1st, 2019, 16:25
Anyone know how to tackle this one?

You should'nt be able to see ontop of the battlements from the ground, but you should be able to see the ground from the battlements. Problem is that the terrain occluder blocks both ways, and if i let the occluder cover a bit of the battlements so a player could stand on it, then that part is also seen from the ground.

Would be nice with an occluder that blocks sight one way but not the other.
29807

It might work if you put in two layers of terrain in concentric rings. Players on the ground should be able to see NPCs on the leading edge of the battlements. They would get cover in most game systems but they would still be visible. "You see four archers up on the battlements". They would not typically be able to see that there are also 4 guys with boiling oil waiting on back side of the battlement. If those other guys move forward to the edge, then they see them and despair. If the players burst through the gates into the courtyard, then they may be able to see the guards with the boiling oil waiting on the inside edge but can no longer see the archers protecting the outside.

Allmight
November 1st, 2019, 16:32
It might work if you put in two layers of terrain in concentric rings. Players on the ground should be able to see NPCs on the leading edge of the battlements. They would get cover in most game systems but they would still be visible. "You see four archers up on the battlements". They would not typically be able to see that there are also 4 guys with boiling oil waiting on back side of the battlement. If those other guys move forward to the edge, then they see them and despair. If the players burst through the gates into the courtyard, then they may be able to see the guards with the boiling oil waiting on the inside edge but can no longer see the archers protecting the outside.

Hmm, yeah. That is one way of doing it. Will fiddle around with your idea. Problem with this particular map though is that it is only 5 feet wide, so a bit tight of space in this case. Will see what i can figure out.

Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 16:34
That should be all the maps, but not really seen any other maps to fix up.

Hi revan and thanks for having a go at this. I've had a look at the maps and have some suggestions.

1. You probably want to be a wee bit neater with joining up your doors and walls. See the before and after images below to see what I mean. Having too many intersections and points can give you some issues. I've actually found it easier to draw the doors in first making then the same width as the walls rather than making them the size they appear on the map, but YMMV.
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2. Firehammer Hold


There are pillars in Areas 7 and 10 that need added.
You should add terrain occluders to the stairs wherever you find stairs. The occluder doesn't need to cover the entire stair but enough to block the LOS from the bottom to the top (A token can't see what's at the top of the stair until they've moved far enough up it).
The main entrance is missing a door (Area 1).
There are several areas where one or more of the walls are described as arrow slits (see areas 12a, 12b, 12c and 12d). You probably want to add walls leaving small gaps so that tokens can't move through.
Area 30 and the entrance to area 24 from the south are missing doors.
Statues, like the ones in areas 7 and 35 should be terrain pieces (block LOS but tokens can climb on them).

3. Harpshield Castle

You've made Area 12 a terrain object but this is actually a room. The road passes under the room. The room itself does have arrow slits so the slits should be terrain objects and the rest just normal walls.
There are pillars in Area 10 which need to be added.
In the pigsty (area 13) I think I'd either just leave any occluders off altogether (not sure the walls are high enough to block LOS) or make the whole bit just terrain. Mixing doors with terrain walls doesn't make sense I don't think.

4. Phylund Hunting Lodge

There's a window just south of area 18 which is drawn as a wall rather than as terrain.
There's a couple of pillars in area 27 that needs added.

5. There's no occluders for Village of Julkoun Cellars or Floshin Manor

LordEntrails
November 1st, 2019, 18:30
Maybe I missed it, but Mr Z, that's a bunch of great advice you've given with your feedback. Is that captured somewhere like in the wiki? A Best Practices article or something? Really good info that I think we want to keep around for a long time :)

Zacchaeus
November 1st, 2019, 19:00
Maybe I missed it, but Mr Z, that's a bunch of great advice you've given with your feedback. Is that captured somewhere like in the wiki? A Best Practices article or something? Really good info that I think we want to keep around for a long time :)

Personal experience from working on various modules. But most of it is all in Doug's videos.

GarthGiantbane
November 1st, 2019, 22:32
Here's an updated version of the Forge of Fury map Mountain-Door-Players-West. I appreciate your critiques Zacchaeus and I think I made all the changes you suggested.

I spent more time on the arrow slot but I'm still not happy with the result. I have leakage from the outside that I can't nail down so the ports are noticeable from that side. Then on the inside, the terrain blocks the view until you step into the wall for a couple of them. My interpretation of that section is that the arrow ports are only noticeable on a successful perception or investigation roll. They are also 15' feet or more above the entry area so they aren't supposed to be noticed.

I also changed the rock formations by the rift to walled instead of terrain.

Thanks,
Garth

DMZeff
November 2nd, 2019, 02:21
Will the LOS definitions downloaded through the updater automatically or do I need to do something special? Would be helpful to include that in the OP.

Moon Wizard
November 2nd, 2019, 02:45
For the modules that have been updated with LOS information, they are downloaded as part of the standard product updates in the updater. I believe there are only 3x 5E modules fully updated with LOS data at this point. It will be an ongoing process, and we’ll post when we add a new one. Right now, we’re swamped with the initial beta crunch.

Regards,
JPG

Acererak
November 2nd, 2019, 08:42
I've added your occluder files to the Sunless Citadel module. I don't know when it'll get updated on the system but probably next Tuesday.

Hi,

So I can now delete my module db xml file and I will retreive LOS from a comming app update on this module ?

Zacchaeus
November 2nd, 2019, 11:14
Hi,

So I can now delete my module db xml file and I will retreive LOS from a comming app update on this module ?

You can if you want to. Or you can keep that campaign for the moment.

Zacchaeus
November 2nd, 2019, 12:04
Here's an updated version of the Forge of Fury map Mountain-Door-Players-West. I appreciate your critiques Zacchaeus and I think I made all the changes you suggested.

I spent more time on the arrow slot but I'm still not happy with the result. I have leakage from the outside that I can't nail down so the ports are noticeable from that side. Then on the inside, the terrain blocks the view until you step into the wall for a couple of them. My interpretation of that section is that the arrow ports are only noticeable on a successful perception or investigation roll. They are also 15' feet or more above the entry area so they aren't supposed to be noticed.

I also changed the rock formations by the rift to walled instead of terrain.

Thanks,
Garth

Jolly good, thanks Garth that looks great. Let me know when you get the rest done.

As for the arrow slits that works just fine. The occluders can't cover every possibility and terrain is really the only option. Anything else will block the LOS completely and the slits need to be seen through. Whilst the arrow slits can be seen from the outside that's fine - the players will be able to see that there are arrow slits.

pollux
November 2nd, 2019, 16:02
BattleMap_Cave02: Somehow FGU knew that this map was the same layout as Cave01 and automatically grabbed the same occlusion lines.
Battlemap_Cave03: Newly done. For some reason, tokens have vision through parts of the occlusion in the upper-left-hand corner (where the SW logo is), even though it's ONE CONTINUOUS LINE. I didn't interrupt dropping this at all. I relaid this line a second time with no interruptions, and had the same issue the second time. Rather than continue to fiddle with it, I've submitted it in case it's a useful bug-report. It seems like there should be no way to see through an uninterrupted occluder, but that's happening here.



I suspect that you experiencing some of the issues that have been reported elsewhere. FG doesn't know that BattleMap_Cave02 is the same layout as one and grab the occluders. What has happened is that the occluders have bled through from another map. As you can see from my image something else has bled through into map 01 from another map. This will also be causing the issues you are having with the tokens seeing through the occluders on map 3 (this also happens at the top left of map one as well).

Ok, this makes a lot of sense. I'm going to hold off on doing more LoS work until this bug gets squashed. This will reduce the chance of me submitting corrupted maps that need dev cleanup, and will also give me a reason to do more beta testing after the next round of LoS fixes.

Allmight
November 2nd, 2019, 16:10
Ok, this makes a lot of sense. I'm going to hold off on doing more LoS work until this bug gets squashed. This will reduce the chance of me submitting corrupted maps that need dev cleanup, and will also give me a reason to do more beta testing after the next round of LoS fixes.

This has happened to me as well. For me the workaround was to restart FGU between each map i work on. That solved it for me.

revanmaster
November 2nd, 2019, 22:17
I've found that the snapping was randomly turning off while it's still on, and it's been weird cause I would want to place the doors first but the walls never wanted to snap to them(not sure why's it doing that on some of the maps, and it would create more points instead of stretching to the points on the walls). I think those pillars missing you mention are a bug cause I did them all, but they would disappear after I close the program (also find them on another map that I never had open). Do you know how to do an incremental move to the right, and left as well?

DMZeff
November 2nd, 2019, 22:34
I'm willing to contribute to the LOS definitions for Dungeon of the Mad Mage. If anyone currently working on the project could confirm that it still needs done and let me know what map to start with, i'll get to it.

Zacchaeus
November 2nd, 2019, 22:37
I'm willing to contribute to the LOS definitions for Dungeon of the Mad Mage. If anyone currently working on the project could confirm that it still needs done and let me know what map to start with, i'll get to it.

See the first post in this thread. That is being worked on but only a few of the maps have so far been completed.

You may want to choose a smaller module for your first attempt :)

DMZeff
November 2nd, 2019, 22:43
I read the OP, i just need to know where to start. I'm currently running the module so I'm going to be completing this one regardless. I figured I might as well share.

Allmight
November 2nd, 2019, 22:44
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL

Here is my first iteration of Pathfinder 2 - Hellknight Hill.

Following maps are LOS enabled (completed).



Citadel Altaerin
Citadel Altaerin Battlements
Citadel Altaerin Vaults
Council Chamber
Goblinoid Caves
Guardian's Way


Following are not LOS enabled.



Breachill


There are no leaks to my knowledge on any map.

The first three maps i'm not so satisfied with, i think i could improve on them if need be.
Citadel Altaerin Battlements i'm not so sure on the Terrain occluders. Not sure how to tackle the battlements, if they even need terrain occluders at all?
The last three i might have gone overboard on vertices. Maybe not need so many since they are for occluders after all and there is some look through. But if number of vertices dont impact performance, i'll leave them as is.
Not sure if Breachill needs to be LOS enabled, but will do it if asked to.

Any feedback is welcome, what to improve, add and or remove.

I will start work on next part in the AP, Age of Ashes - Cult of Cinders.

Zacchaeus
November 2nd, 2019, 22:46
I've found that the snapping was randomly turning off while it's still on, and it's been weird cause I would want to place the doors first but the walls never wanted to snap to them(not sure why's it doing that on some of the maps, and it would create more points instead of stretching to the points on the walls). I think those pillars missing you mention are a bug cause I did them all, but they would disappear after I close the program (also find them on another map that I never had open). Do you know how to do an incremental move to the right, and left as well?

I found some issues with not being able to add occluders and reported here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51856-Occluders-and-the-next-map). You may want to add to that thread.

Zacchaeus
November 2nd, 2019, 22:54
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL

Here is my first iteration of Pathfinder 2 - Hellknight Hill.



Thanks Allmight, I'll have a look at this tomorrow.

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 12:16
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL

Here is my first iteration of Pathfinder 2 - Hellknight Hill.

Allmight, I've had a look at these and this is nice work. I've got some feedback for you.

Citadel Alterein


You've missed a secret door at the bottom left of the map into area A9 from outside
I'd add terrain occluders to all of the arrow slits/windows. Without some kind of blocker it is possible to see for example from area A1 into Area A13.
In A12 I'd do the stairs as in the attached graphic. If the whole stairs are done as terrain, tokens will be able to move onto the stairs anywhere along it's length. By adding a wall and terrain blockers it forces tokens to climb the stairs and only reveals part of them as the token climbs the stair.
In area A20 It isn't clear how high the bookshelves are but I would either leave terrain blockers off altogether or make them terrain objects rather than walls.

Citadel Alterein Battlements


I don't think a terrain blocker is needed on the inside wall since the PCs are coming from the area below so will have already seen it. There should perhaps be blockers on the outside wall however. But this may just be for aesthetic reasons

Citadel Alterein Vaults


There's a couple of missing wall segments to the left of the secret door on the far side of B1
There should be terrain objects over the rubble in B1, B7, B10 and B12.

Guardian's Way


For the central tower at C2 the terrain occluder allows a token on the ground to see the entire first and second platforms. I think the occluder should be as shown in my screenshot attached. (the same would apply to the other two platforms at C3 and C5.
For the trees I see where you are coming from in using walls for the tree trunks. Generally though we've been treating vegetation as terrain. I attach an image which leaves your walls but adds terrain as well. I'm debating this one - I'm not sure what would be the best solution. So I'll leave it to you.

General


For outside maps it's best to draw a wall around the periphery of the map otherwise tokens will be able to see out of the map.

Allmight
November 3rd, 2019, 12:44
Allmight, I've had a look at these and this is nice work. I've got some feedback for you.

Thanks for the feedback, i will get right on it.

Two questions though.

1. The stairs in the first picture, aren't the terrain occluders uneccecary? I think you would be able to se the stairs clearly from the base and top since nothing blocks the sight. You clearly would see the stairs from the side as is, terrain occluders don't block from the side. If we place the occluders like that, we need to extend them so they cover the courtyard side of the stairs as well?

2. Last picture. Doing it like that assumes the trees doesn't have bare trunks. So my question is, should we generally assume tree foilage go all the way down to the ground, unless otherwise specified in the text for the area?

Regardless, great feedback. Not sure how i could miss those missing walls :p
Anyhow, should have the new updated file done fairly fast.

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 13:28
Thanks for the feedback, i will get right on it.

Two questions though.

1. The stairs in the first picture, aren't the terrain occluders uneccecary? I think you would be able to se the stairs clearly from the base and top since nothing blocks the sight. You clearly would see the stairs from the side as is, terrain occluders don't block from the side. If we place the occluders like that, we need to extend them so they cover the courtyard side of the stairs as well?

2. Last picture. Doing it like that assumes the trees doesn't have bare trunks. So my question is, should we generally assume tree foilage go all the way down to the ground, unless otherwise specified in the text for the area?

Regardless, great feedback. Not sure how i could miss those missing walls :p
Anyhow, should have the new updated file done fairly fast.

1. There's certainly an argument that occluders aren't needed on the stairs. My thinking is that a token at the bottom of the stairs would not be able to see the landing at the top and so I'd have at least one occluder near the top to prevent LOS to that. In this particular case of course the top of the starits are on a different map so they're probably as you say unneeded. You are also right that in this case you can see the length of the stairs from the side. My concern as I said was that a token could enter the stairts at any point along the side if only a terrain blocker is used. Again, however, in this case nothing is going to turn on whether the token moves onto the stairs at any point other than from the bottom. I was probably being picky on this one.

2. Up until now we've just use terrain for trees (sometimes it isn't clear whether the vegetation is trees or bushes). You're the first one that has come up with the idea that the branches of the tree are unlikely to extend all the way down to the ground and used walls just for the trunks. This of course could well depend on the type of tree. Looking in my garden at the 50 or so 100 ft. tall Scots Pine trees in it the branches don't start until about 60 feet up. On the other hand there's some silver birch mixed in which are of a similar height and their branches almost touch the ground. And of course in both cases the trunks are pretty solid and can't be seen through. So I think that either method is perfectly fine and we shouldn't get too hung up on it. We could leave it up to DMs to add more occluders (or, of course, switch some off) to suit their needs. I suppose for the sake of consistency we should go with just the terrain occluders and ignore the trunk. But I'm going to leave this one up to you.

Allmight
November 3rd, 2019, 13:45
Thanks for your time giving advice.

1. Yeah, stairs in A12 are kind of unimportant, cause when you get around to players climbing them, you have already switched to the battlements map anyhow, so i'll leave them without any terrain at all.
2. Some good points there. I'll stick with terrain occluders as per your sugestion.

Should have a new version of the xml file within an hour or two.

Allmight
November 3rd, 2019, 16:48
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL UPDATE

I have updated the occluders as per requested, and made some other minor tweaks.


CITADEL ALTAERIN
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Added missing secret door in area A9.
- Added terrain occluders in all arrow slits.
- Removed terrain occluder from stairs in area A12.
- Changed wall occluders to terrain occluders on bookshelves in area A20, and left them set to open. This way the GM can decide if they block LOS or not.
- Changed wall occluder to terrain occluder on bookshelf in area A9, and set it to open for consistency with area A20.

CITADEL ALTAERIN BATTLEMENTS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Removed the terrain occluders altogether. Considered Zacchaeus aesthetic suggestion, but outside area has no purpose, so opted out of that.

CITADEL ALTAERIN VAULTS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fixed missing wall sections next to secret door in area B1.
- Added missing terrain occluders in area B1, B7, B10 and B12.

GUARDIANS WAY
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Added border wall around the terrain.
- Removed walls for tree trunks.
- Added terrain occluders for all foilage.
- Revamped the platform terrain occluders as per Zacchaeus recommendations.

There is a leak problem on the Citadel Altaerin map, in the jail area. I beleave that is a bug which i have reported here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51907-BUG-LOS-see-through-wall-occluder).

QUESTION: Larger towns, like Breachill, should they also have occluders?
OBSERVATION 1: The terrain occluders on foilage in Guardians Way looks odd. Mostly cause they show up as clearly visible circles. Only way i can think of to remedy that is to handdraw the terrain occluders to match the trees.
OBSERVATION 2: The platform solutuion for Guardians Way works fine from ground, but when you climb them you can't see the ground. I know, that's how terrain occluders work, but it defeats the purpose of the guard platforms, since they are for keeping watch. I know, nitpicking.

(https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51907-BUG-LOS-see-through-wall-occluder)

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 18:01
Jolly Good, Allmight. I'll have a look tomorrow and if all is well I'll get the data into the module (somehow - I haven't figured that part out yet but it'll involve Trenloe I'm sure :)).

Question: No, I don't think we need occluders on anything that isn't a battlemap; or that tokens aren't going to be moving around in, or even probably where no combat is going to take place.
Observation 1: Agreed, but once the token has reached level 1 the DM can 'open' the occluder just like they would a door and the ground will become visible again.
Observation 2: They do, and I think this probably depends on the colours used on the map. In some maps I've done it doesn't seen to show as much. FYI when I did the first few maps I was tracing the outline of the trees and if there's just a few this is fine; but once you get to a map with a freaking forest in it, it gets old quickly - so the circle is fine in my book.

Allmight
November 3rd, 2019, 18:06
Jolly Good, Allmight. I'll have a look tomorrow and if all is well I'll get the data into the module (somehow - I haven't figured that part out yet but it'll involve Trenloe I'm sure :)).

Hehe, yeah use Trenloe. He needs more work :D

I will probably have Cult of Cinders done by tomorow as well.

Ascalon
November 3rd, 2019, 19:50
Is there nobody working on Rise Of Tiamat? I'd take on this one.

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 21:43
Is there nobody working on Rise Of Tiamat? I'd take on this one.

THank you. I've updated post #1.

Grumpy_Grognard
November 3rd, 2019, 22:34
Should we do an entire product's maps before submitting them here? For example, I've completed the Underground Complex map from the Dungeon Master's Guide Map Pack Number 1. Should I do the rest of the maps before submitting, or just turn them in as I complete them?

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 23:38
If you do a couple of maps and submit them I can give them the once over and give you feedback, just so that we are all on the same page and prevent you having to do a lot of revisions if necessary.

Grumpy_Grognard
November 4th, 2019, 00:20
Ok. Thanks.

Allmight
November 4th, 2019, 09:37
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL UPDATE

I fixed the leak bug at the jail of Citadel Altaerin. Was one of the jail bars that was the offending occluder. All should be good now.

EDIT: Correction, found more offending bars that i missed. Fix up soon.

Allmight
November 4th, 2019, 10:39
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL UPDATE 3


Okay. First of all, sorry for the spam, but this bug was illusive. Almost sure it is fixed now :)
Workaround was to add a wall occluder around the extents of the map, and leak was gone. Had to do that anyways since the area around the citadel is an outdoor area.
Updated XML below.

Zacchaeus
November 4th, 2019, 10:57
PATHFINDER 2 - AGE OF ASHES AP - HELLKNIGHT HILL UPDATE 3


Okay. First of all, sorry for the spam, but this bug was illusive. Almost sure it is fixed now :)
Workaround was to add a wall occluder around the extents of the map, and leak was gone. Had to do that anyways since the area around the citadel is an outdoor area.
Updated XML below.



Thanks. I'll add this to my list of updates.

Allmight
November 4th, 2019, 19:34
Pathfinder 2 - Age of Ashes AP - Cult of Cinders (2 of 6)


All maps done.

If i have missed anything, or there are some bugs or leakage, let me know.

Most likely there is something. Many of these maps were a bit fiddly to do. Lots of minute details and odd angles.

Feedback, good or bad is welcome.

Next up, Age of Ashes AP - Tomorow Must Burn (3 of 6). Not released for beta yet though. Can i use the one i have downloaded on FGC? I know it works in FGU. Or will there be changes on that module which would render my work invalid?

Allmight
November 4th, 2019, 20:53
Pathfinder 2 - Age of Ashes AP - Hellknight Hill (1 of 6)

Update 4

Added missing doors between area A14 and A17.
Changed double doors to true double doors.
Changed bookshelves in area A17 and A18 from wall occluder to terrain occluders.
The shelves in A17 were blocking movement, and the rest of the shelves in the citadel had already been changed to terrain occluders.

stewartl42
November 4th, 2019, 20:55
Here is my first effort. I'd like some feedback before I continue.

I tried messaging FG_Dave and got no response, so I just went ahead.

GarthGiantbane
November 4th, 2019, 22:51
Forge of Fury (TYP) Mountain Door East - Player is completed. It was mostly wall outlines so a bit easier than the western section.

Notes - I tried to make the stacked boxes and barrels only about 80% terrain pieces. I figured the characters should see the stacked stuff, just not beyond it. There was also a portcullis opening but I elected not to obscure that at all - too small on the map and characters can see through them anyway. I added a terrain rim to the rift stairwell similar to what was added on the path to the mountain door on the west map.

I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions

Thanks!
Garth

Zacchaeus
November 5th, 2019, 11:23
Pathfinder 2 - Age of Ashes AP - Hellknight Hill (1 of 6)

Update 4

Added missing doors between area A14 and A17.
Changed double doors to true double doors.
Changed bookshelves in area A17 and A18 from wall occluder to terrain occluders.
The shelves in A17 were blocking movement, and the rest of the shelves in the citadel had already been changed to terrain occluders.




Thanks Allmight; I've added these to the module but it'll likely miss today's update.

Zacchaeus
November 5th, 2019, 11:24
Pathfinder 2 - Age of Ashes AP - Cult of Cinders (2 of 6)


All maps done.

If i have missed anything, or there are some bugs or leakage, let me know.

Most likely there is something. Many of these maps were a bit fiddly to do. Lots of minute details and odd angles.

Feedback, good or bad is welcome.

Next up, Age of Ashes AP - Tomorow Must Burn (3 of 6). Not released for beta yet though. Can i use the one i have downloaded on FGC? I know it works in FGU. Or will there be changes on that module which would render my work invalid?


Jolly good, these all look fine and dandy. I've updated the module files but this is unlikely to catch today's update.

Zacchaeus
November 5th, 2019, 12:06
Here is my first effort. I'd like some feedback before I continue.

I tried messaging FG_Dave and got no response, so I just went ahead.

Hi stewart, thanks for taking part in this project. I've had a look at the map you've done and this is nice work; here's a couple of things to think about.

1. It's best to draw a wall all around the edge of the map otherwise the tokens will be able to see out of the map. The starting location on this one is at the bottom and so any tokens placed there will be able to see outside the bottom of the map.
2. I think the pillars in A5 should be walls rather than terrain objects. Generally pillars will go from floor to ceiling and unless there's good reason to suppose a character could stand on the top of the pillar I'd say walls. In normal circumstances I would have terrain occluders around the balconies at X4, X11 ans X23 as well as near the top of both staircases. I can see, however that in this case characters will always come into this room up high enough to see the entire room; so maybe those aren't needed,
3. Generally though I think we should have terrain objects on the stairs where characters can't see the top of the stairs from the bottom, for example in X9 and X14. I think we need terrain objects on the spiral stair in X30 as well.
4. The arrow slits in X13 and X25 should be terrain objects rather than walls and all of the other arrow slits I think should also be terrain objects (in X2a, X2b, X8, X17). If there is nothing in the arrow slits tokens will be able to see through the slits and thus reveal more than they should know about.

Zacchaeus
November 5th, 2019, 12:57
Forge of Fury (TYP) Mountain Door East - Player is completed. It was mostly wall outlines so a bit easier than the western section.

Notes - I tried to make the stacked boxes and barrels only about 80% terrain pieces. I figured the characters should see the stacked stuff, just not beyond it. There was also a portcullis opening but I elected not to obscure that at all - too small on the map and characters can see through them anyway. I added a terrain rim to the rift stairwell similar to what was added on the path to the mountain door on the west map.

I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions

Thanks!
Garth

Good Job Garth. I think the Iron Gate between 8 and 10 should actually be a door. The description says it is blocked off so not immediately see through and it is also locked. I don't think terrain would be the way to go since a token can just move through it so we need to be able to stop the token and that really just leaves us with a door. For the Grand Stair in area 10 would the attached graphic be more appropriate? We can't really stop tokens entering from the sides but we can prevent then seeing in. As you've drawn it the tokens will see the whole length of the stair from the point they enter the room which negates the occluder. My suggestion isn't ideal either; we don't really have an occluder type for not seeing 'down' without also occluding the level we're on.

Guoccamole
November 5th, 2019, 18:28
@Zacchaeus: TY for the tips. Apologies for not noticing your write-ups earlier, but I just got notice last night (about a post much later than yours) and then noticed your advice. You have given me some good reasons to revisit my HotDQ LOS mappings. TY

More later after I have a chance to review them.

FriendBesto
November 5th, 2019, 20:40
Hey, I noticed no one was working on OotA yet and figured I'd go ahead and get a start on it. I've only done the first map for now, so I could upload it and maybe get feedback before doing a ton of maps and realizing something about how I'm doing it makes them unusable. The starting point map is a bit confusing in its own right with all the layers and bridges and questionable visibility status so I did it up the way I would for my own table using the map provided, with a focus on how it will look as a player and what makes the most sense without assuming too much.
This map is a hard starting point considering all the possible levels and angles the players can reasonably end up within the 2D space so with the various zones within the map all being multi purpose it would be more clutter than helpful to do more than I have. The organic walls didn't lend themselves to making pretty joins with doors and the vagueness makes it hard to setup much more without it causing problems of some sort or another for a fresh party but if what I did looks good given what I had to work with then I'll be happy to keep going on LoS definitions for OotA.

stewartl42
November 5th, 2019, 21:01
Can you give an example of a best practice for the arrow slits? I can't seem to get it to work in a manner I'm completely happy with.

Tried a polygon in the slit, tried making the whole room a big terrain square, etc.

Allmight
November 5th, 2019, 21:20
Can you give an example of a best practice for the arrow slits? I can't seem to get it to work in a manner I'm completely happy with.

Tried a polygon in the slit, tried making the whole room a big terrain square, etc.

Generally the best way of doing it atm with the tools we have is a terrain occluder filling up the arrowslit. If you look back a couple of pages, Zacchaeus have pics of example arrow slits.

GarthGiantbane
November 5th, 2019, 22:05
Good Job Garth. I think the Iron Gate between 8 and 10 should actually be a door. The description says it is blocked off so not immediately see through and it is also locked. I don't think terrain would be the way to go since a token can just move through it so we need to be able to stop the token and that really just leaves us with a door. For the Grand Stair in area 10 would the attached graphic be more appropriate? We can't really stop tokens entering from the sides but we can prevent then seeing in. As you've drawn it the tokens will see the whole length of the stair from the point they enter the room which negates the occluder. My suggestion isn't ideal either; we don't really have an occluder type for not seeing 'down' without also occluding the level we're on.

Thanks Zacchaeus - I made the adjustments. Added a door to the portcullis and changed the terrain marker from the rim of the Grand Stair to the inside of the stairs - I like that a lot better.

The first level is done - on to the Glitterhame!

stewartl42
November 6th, 2019, 03:15
Done. I also completed Amber Temple 2, so both maps should be complete.

Zacchaeus
November 6th, 2019, 14:23
Hey, I noticed no one was working on OotA yet and figured I'd go ahead and get a start on it. I've only done the first map for now, so I could upload it and maybe get feedback before doing a ton of maps and realizing something about how I'm doing it makes them unusable. The starting point map is a bit confusing in its own right with all the layers and bridges and questionable visibility status so I did it up the way I would for my own table using the map provided, with a focus on how it will look as a player and what makes the most sense without assuming too much.
This map is a hard starting point considering all the possible levels and angles the players can reasonably end up within the 2D space so with the various zones within the map all being multi purpose it would be more clutter than helpful to do more than I have. The organic walls didn't lend themselves to making pretty joins with doors and the vagueness makes it hard to setup much more without it causing problems of some sort or another for a fresh party but if what I did looks good given what I had to work with then I'll be happy to keep going on LoS definitions for OotA.

Hi Friend and thanks for taking part in this project. I''ve added your name to the first post against this one.

I absolutely agree with you that this is a problematic map to start with but I think you've done a great job on it.

The only thing I might be tempted to do would be to add some terrain occluders along the edges of the walkways and bridges like shown in the attached. My thinking here is that although it doesn't specifically say anywhere (that I can find) that the bottom of the cleft can't be seen from the walkways I think we can surmise that is the case. The webs would probably be sufficient to obscure the bottom even if the lack of light didn't. I think adding this would also confine the tokens a bit and give the players a sense of claustrophobia which I think would enhance the tension of the situation.

Other than that though this is good stuff.

Zacchaeus
November 6th, 2019, 14:32
Thanks Zacchaeus - I made the adjustments. Added a door to the portcullis and changed the terrain marker from the rim of the Grand Stair to the inside of the stairs - I like that a lot better.

The first level is done - on to the Glitterhame!

Looking good Garth; onwards and upwards :)

Allmight
November 6th, 2019, 14:42
@Zacchaeus, i noticed that you havn't updated the list. I have completed the work on Cult of Cinders and am now working on Tomorow Must Burn, part 3 in the adventure path, and it is about 50% completed.

Zacchaeus
November 6th, 2019, 14:53
Done. I also completed Amber Temple 2, so both maps should be complete.

Good stuff Stewart.

In Temple 2, I see where you are coming from with the secret door at X5a but I think that this somewhat gives the game away. Remember secret doors completely block LOS so the players are likely to figure out that something is there. I think I'd just make the statue (and the other three smaller ones in the same area) terrain blockers. The fissure at X41 should have a wall round it I think.

Temple 1 is looking good.

Zacchaeus
November 6th, 2019, 14:55
@Zacchaeus, i noticed that you havn't updated the list. I have completed the work on Cult of Cinders and am now working on Tomorow Must Burn, part 3 in the adventure path, and it is about 50% completed.

Done; thanks for spotting that. I think I'm going to have to find another method of listing these. I'm going to run out of room soon.

FriendBesto
November 6th, 2019, 17:52
Hi Friend and thanks for taking part in this project. I''ve added your name to the first post against this one.

I absolutely agree with you that this is a problematic map to start with but I think you've done a great job on it.

The only thing I might be tempted to do would be to add some terrain occluders along the edges of the walkways and bridges like shown in the attached. My thinking here is that although it doesn't specifically say anywhere (that I can find) that the bottom of the cleft can't be seen from the walkways I think we can surmise that is the case. The webs would probably be sufficient to obscure the bottom even if the lack of light didn't. I think adding this would also confine the tokens a bit and give the players a sense of claustrophobia which I think would enhance the tension of the situation.

Other than that though this is good stuff.

Thanks for the feedback, I like the idea of skirting the walkways with landscape, makes it look better from the ground too (assuming you have 100+ft dark vision you could still see some of the stalagmites and webbing from below).
I actually ended up taking double the time looking at the reference maps and reading every description for more clues. The biggest Issue I had was just deciding to ignore the rope bridge from zones 6-8, with no clear description for where that bridge attaches the only thing that made sense to me is call its appearance a graphic error and say its part of the same walkway instead of being over or under. There are a couple extra areas I left open because the dark vision distance would easily cover the span, and finally I did a 1 man playtest and realized the grid alignment made a close skirting landscape zone an issue (you would easily reveal the whole cave entering the landscape wall while going across the bridge for example). The zones don't look nearly as neat and tidy from a GM view when I pulled them to a safe point in reference to the grid but when walking around with a token it no longer easily reveals too much, and this way there still aren't any zones added that would require a GM to toggle vision for good vision functionality during a normal run.

I also ended up doing a whole extra revision on the landscape just to account for which areas should be visible based on elevation (That odd block on the eastern side of the path looked good to me for a blind spot when I moved the token around, and the bridge from zones 6-8 spanning to zone 10 has very little dropoff along its run but also is clearly above the next section of walkway [hidden steep bridge blocked from view in the side view to go from zone 10 to the natural walkway])

Edit: The Module data seems to be missing a number of images, I've only checked out the maps so far but it was easier to make a list of the images that that are here rather than whats missing...
List of maps available, DM versions: Menzoberranzan, Sword Coast, Velkynvelve.
Player Versions: (done already: Velkynvelve, Oozing Temple), Blingdenstone, Mantol Derith, Troglodyte Lair, Whorlstone Tunnels.
I finished the oozing temple map and added the expanded xml file while editing my post. I got 4 more maps I can work on for now and will keep doing those as time allows but I made a fresh campaign just to make sure it wasn't corrupted data from doing the first map so I wanted to get the issue flagged along with the adding the map.

Allmight
November 6th, 2019, 20:33
Maps with depth (slopes), how would you draw the occluders on them?

Follow ground, or top of slope?

Allmight
November 7th, 2019, 12:00
Maps with depth (slopes), how would you draw the occluders on them?

Follow ground, or top of slope?

I think i may have an idea how to tackle this type of map. I tried a combination of wall and terrain occluders. That way i can keep the walls visible, but still maintain an effective LOS. Is this overkill?

29987

Zacchaeus
November 7th, 2019, 12:01
Maps with depth (slopes), how would you draw the occluders on them?

Follow ground, or top of slope?

I think just the top or bottom of the slope. It will possibly depend on what direction the token comes in from. If from the top then they'd see down into the whole area once they reached the top of the slope. If they come in from the bottom they'd not be able to see what was at the top of the slope. Probably the same kind of treatment that you'd do for stairs.

Allmight
November 7th, 2019, 12:04
Thats just the thing. They never get on top of the wall. Just rockbed on the top. They have made the map in some kind of isometric/3D view, to give depth.

So i tried a a way to tackle this in post #229.

Zacchaeus
November 7th, 2019, 12:07
I think i may have an idea how to tackle this type of map. I tried a combination of wall and terrain occluders. That way i can keep the walls visible, but still maintain an effective LOS. Is this overkill?

29987

Possibly. If a token is at the bottom of a cliff or contour then they will be able to see the cliff or contour. What they won't be able to see would be what's beyond the cliff or contour. So if they can see the slope I don't think we would need an occluder at all - a terrain occluder isn't necessarily difficult terrain; just terrain that can't immediately be seen through.

If I am reading your map correctly then the token can see a cliff with a wall on top of it. So I'm not sure that we need a terrain occluder for the cliff since it can be seen - what is invisible is what is beyond the wall at the top. If there isn't actually a wall at the top then I'd make that a terrain occluder which runs along just beyond the lip of the cliff edge so that the edge can be seen from below but not what is beyond the edge.

Zacchaeus
November 7th, 2019, 12:10
Thats just the thing. They never get on top of the wall. Just rockbed on the top. They have made the map in some kind of isometric/3D view, to give depth.

So i tried a a way to tackle this in post #229.

Hmm ok. So the issue is that they can see the top but can't get to it?

Allmight
November 7th, 2019, 12:16
Hmm ok. So the issue is that they can see the top but can't get to it?

Naah, more has to do with LOS. If i just have a wall or terrain at the top of the cliff (where the wall is now), they can see what is beyond the bends at the ground since the occluder at the top is to far away from the ground to have any real inpact on LOS, apart from very sharp corners, as the one above the PC on the image. If you look below you see how the terrain occluder is giving a more or less accurate representation of LOS for that PC, but the wall at the top dont affect LOS at all, apart from blocking sight to the rockbed beyond.
So only reason i added the terrain occluder was to add a reasonable LOS representation. Other than that, it has no real purpose.

This is a tricky situation, and not sure how to tackle it.

EDIT: Typos

Zacchaeus
November 7th, 2019, 14:12
Naah, more has to do with LOS. If i just have a wall or terrain at the top of the cliff (where the wall is now), they can see what is beyond the bends at the ground since the occluder at the top is to far away from the ground to have any real inpact on LOS, apart from very sharp corners, as the one above the PC on the image. If you look below you see how the terrain occluder is giving a more or less accurate representation of LOS for that PC, but the wall at the top dont affect LOS at all, apart from blocking sight to the rockbed beyond.
So only reason i added the terrain occluder was to add a reasonable LOS representation. Other than that, it has no real purpose.

This is a tricky situation, and not sure how to tackle it.

EDIT: Typos

I'm not sure either. All you can do is give it your best shot and we'll have a look when you're done.

Allmight
November 7th, 2019, 18:32
Okay, that was way to many maps in one module. Anyhow, i think i got most covered. Gone through them to see if i have missed anything, or in any way screwed something up (most likely). So i need a second pair of eyes looking through them, and let me know what you find.

I hope it is all nice and neat though :p

revanmaster
November 7th, 2019, 20:54
This should have everything, but looking for more ideas on the lower map on manor I think it is.

Henrique Oliveira Machado
November 8th, 2019, 03:33
I've just made almost the entire xontal's tower maps for the Rise of Tiamat's adventure. Someone is working on those. I can share if needed, just explain me how.

Zacchaeus
November 8th, 2019, 11:16
Okay, that was way to many maps in one module. Anyhow, i think i got most covered. Gone through them to see if i have missed anything, or in any way screwed something up (most likely). So i need a second pair of eyes looking through them, and let me know what you find.

I hope it is all nice and neat though :p

Perfect, Allmight. I'll get these added to the module.

Zacchaeus
November 8th, 2019, 12:12
This should have everything, but looking for more ideas on the lower map on manor I think it is.

Hi revanmaster and well done on these.

A couple of points I'd like to make about terrain occluders. The way these work is that a token can see into the terrain but not out of it. Once the token moves into the terrain object then they can see out the other side. So in the first image below you can see that once the token enters the balcony it can see right through the terrain because it is immediately in the terrain as soon as it comes through the door. If you look at the second image the occluder has been restricted just to the balcony area and so it can't be seen through until the token is close to the balcony and therefore is able to see past it. So, in effect, the way you've drawn the occluder for the balcony it would just as well not be there at all since it doesn't serve any purpose - it isn't blocking anything.

A similar 'problem' exists at area 4. Again by covering the entire area with a terrain occluder (as in image 3 below) tokens can see right through it - so the occluder is really serving no purpose. In image 4 the way the occluder has been drawn it does now block LOS to the area below the balcony. This will also work for tokens starting in the room below. It will be visible but whatever is beyond the walkway above won't be visible. I also made the inside of the stairs a wall and included a blocker half way up the stairs to prevent a token seeing everything until they have move up the stairs a bit. The downside as you can see in my graphic is that the occluder acts as a wall and so blocks parts of the walkway that it shouldn't. A token on the walkway should see the whole thing and only the bit below it should really be blocked - but currently there isn't a way to do that effectively.

Finally if you look at area 15 you'll see the same situation. If you put a token in the middle of the area you've set up the occluder in you'll see that the token can see the walkway at the top even though it is below the edge.

These may be unimportant in many ways depending on how the tokens move through the area but I think we should change them as I'm suggesting.

Zacchaeus
November 8th, 2019, 12:18
I've just made almost the entire xontal's tower maps for the Rise of Tiamat's adventure. Someone is working on those. I can share if needed, just explain me how.

Hi Henrique.

It is probably best if we just have one person working on each module otherwise things might get complicated co-ordinating things and it will mean having several xml files to contend with and trying to splice them together. If you open up the campaign folder for the campaign that you created the occluders in you'll find a folder called moduledb and inside that you'll find a file called DD Rise of Tiamat.xml. This is the file that we need; so just attach it to a post here.

Henrique Oliveira Machado
November 8th, 2019, 12:26
Hi Henrique.

It is probably best if we just have one person working on each module otherwise things might get complicated co-ordinating things and it will mean having several xml files to contend with and trying to splice them together. If you open up the campaign folder for the campaign that you created the occluders in you'll find a folder called moduledb and inside that you'll find a file called DD Rise of Tiamat.xml. This is the file that we need; so just attach it to a post here.

Nice, i imagined it would be bad sharing these.

With this new update the problems i was having building walls is gone, so i'll probably do the Rage of Demons LOS, since i'll DM this in 2020 for my group, and i can take this part for me, if no one has taken it yet.

"I'm gonna need to buy it first. lol, tho".

Zacchaeus
November 8th, 2019, 12:47
Nice, i imagined it would be bad sharing these.

With this new update the problems i was having building walls is gone, so i'll probably do the Rage of Demons LOS, since i'll DM this in 2020 for my group, and i can take this part for me, if no one has taken it yet.

"I'm gonna need to buy it first. lol, tho".

See the first post. Both of the modules that are in Rage of Demons (Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat) are in the process of being done.

Henrique Oliveira Machado
November 8th, 2019, 12:55
See the first post. Both of the modules that are in Rage of Demons (Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat) are in the process of being done.

I think you are confusing the campaigns.
Rage of demons is the demon campaign that goes in the underdark.

ROT and HOTDQ is called Tyranny of dragons.

Zacchaeus
November 8th, 2019, 13:10
I think you are confusing the campaigns.
Rage of demons is the demon campaign that goes in the underdark.

ROT and HOTDQ is called Tyranny of dragons.

Aha, you are correct. Then that will be Out of the Abyss or Princes of the Apocalypse and both of those are also being worked on.

FriendBesto
November 8th, 2019, 20:24
Speaking of Rage of Demons (I like this better than OotA, lol) I have finished up with the issue free player maps and could use some input on how to tackle all the elevation changes on the Troglodyte lair map without making sight to the other side of the ridge a problem from afar, I stopped while writing this to see how a secret zone would work, but it still blocks sight beyond the zone. On the same map I decided there was a rise and dip into the southwest part of the cave in order to get line of sight to look good on the ridge, its only 5 feet high so I think it looks good but I might adjust the terrain points behind it next editing session.

The trench in Mantol-Derith causes some similar issues as well; it's pretty certain the party will enter the zone at the bottom of the trench so I'm leaning toward strips of landscape in the cliff wall intended to be turned off when the party climbs out, and then it can be left off, but again I thought I'd get some feedback.

Also, I should have made a separate post rather than editing my last one, but can anyone verify missing images in the OotA module? My map edits have been posted here so reinstalling unity wouldn't be a huge deal but I sure would feel silly if I did that without asking if its just me or if its the module. Most of my map images have been replaced by what I assume is the missing image icon (super tiny red question mark) all the same images were missing when I made a fresh campaign. I made a list of the maps I can load up, and they are now done except for Blingenstone and Whorlstone Tunnels, partially because they do not have map grids which im unsure of whether it would have an impact on trying to add my LOS without it and partially because I just finished Mantol-Derith in one sitting and am going to take a break for a bit :p

Zacchaeus
November 8th, 2019, 21:17
Hi FriendBesto; I've got a few things on this weekend so I'll have a look in a couple of days.

LordBattle
November 9th, 2019, 01:51
Hey everyone,

I'd like to help out with the LOS project. I'm currently working on Dead in Thay from TFTYP, and just finished the Abyssal Prisons map (attached below). Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I'll be starting on Blood Pens next (from the same scenario).

jlabbe
November 9th, 2019, 11:36
Hi good folks,

I'm running a Storm King Thunder campain and took the project to implement LOS on all player maps since I don't see anyone working on this. I'm working in alphabetical order and I'm currently in the ''g''. I will go over the testing when all the maps would be completed. Let me know if I'm doing this for nothing (maybe I miss a post and someone esle is woking on this).

Allmight
November 10th, 2019, 11:38
I have made some updates to Tomorrow Must Burn.

There was a missing door and some wall cornerpieces that were missing on two maps. I have now corrected that.
Oh, and it is now completed, so feel free to mark it as such :)

Will now start work on PFRPG2 - Age of Ashes AP (4 of 6), Fires of the Haunted City.