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Midge
August 3rd, 2019, 04:59
Critical hits are supposed to do double damage in 2e, from what we can find in the rules. However, when you land a critical hit, it acts like it would in 1e, adding a damage die to the attack instead of simply doubling the initial damage. The critical modifier is set to 2x, but is there currently a way to automate critical hits to double damage, rather than adding a damage die? If not implemented yet, I completely understand.

Including images for the sake of clarity.
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Trenloe
August 3rd, 2019, 05:37
Welcome to the FG forums!

Unfortunately this hasn’t been implemented yet. It’ll be in an update release very soon...

Midge
August 3rd, 2019, 05:52
I had a feeling that was the case. Thank you!

ShadeRaven
August 3rd, 2019, 08:14
It should be noted that the doubling of the dice and modifiers is also in the rules, so it would actually be kind of cool (sorry, Trenloe!) if there was a toggle for which you'd prefer in the Options tab.

Speaking of which, Attack: Critical confirm is still in there, but obviously isn't operational.

Larsenex
August 13th, 2019, 18:49
Just to clarify. >

In P2 from what I have read on Paizo's forums if I had 18 str and used a Longsword and scored a critcal hit, my dmg would be (1d8+4)x2. Is this what you are reading Midge?

This was how it used to be a long time ago which is simpler to understand.

Trenloe
August 13th, 2019, 18:55
In P2 from what I have read on Paizo's forums if I had 18 str and used a Longsword and scored a critcal hit, my dmg would be (1d8+4)x2. Is this what you are reading Midge?
Correct. But the rulebook itself (as noted above) says it's OK to roll all the dice and double the modifier - see bottom left of page 451.

The ruling itself is more to reduce the number of dice rolled at higher levels than a specific statistical/numbers ruling. We don't have an issue with rolling multiple dice on FG - and, personally, I like seeing lots of dice rolling!

yarnevk
August 13th, 2019, 20:24
I think even for the optional rule it is bugged - I thought it was instead of (1d8+4)*2 it was doing 2d8+4 - it should be 2d8+8 right? so the modifier also gets doubled?

I also prefer the doubled die rather than doubled result when the computer is rolling the die and doing the math, makes crits more exciting. Also you are more likely to roll a 1 with one die than a snake eyes on two die, but then that also applies to other side doubling the 8 is more likely than rolling two 8's.

Ampersandrew
August 13th, 2019, 21:49
The more dice you are rolling the more your result will tend to the average value.

For 1d8 x 2 2 is 1 in 8, 9 is impossible, and 16 is 1 in 8
For 2d8 2 is 1 in 64, 9 is 8 in 64 and 16 is 1 in 64

for 2d8 34 of 64 will be 7, 8, 9, 10, or 11

I suspect it doesn't matter much.

ShadeRaven
August 13th, 2019, 22:17
I think even for the optional rule it is bugged - I thought it was instead of (1d8+4)*2 it was doing 2d8+4 - it should be 2d8+8 right? so the modifier also gets doubled?

I also prefer the doubled die rather than doubled result when the computer is rolling the die and doing the math, makes crits more exciting. Also you are more likely to roll a 1 with one die than a snake eyes on two die, but then that also applies to other side doubling the 8 is more likely than rolling two 8's.No. It's doubling the bonus okay, so if you're okay with doubling the dice and modifiers, as per the optional rules, the current ruleset is still works.

Trenloe
August 13th, 2019, 23:00
No. It's doubling the bonus okay, so if you're okay with doubling the dice and modifiers, as per the optional rules, the current ruleset is still works.
Yep, that's the way it's coded - and has been like that since the Playtest ruleset.

Larsenex
August 14th, 2019, 19:32
Ok to add dice to this discussion > power attack should not have modifiers added to it ..right?
if you crit with an attack using power attack should you crit calculate first (2d8+4)*2 than add 1d8?

Trenloe
August 14th, 2019, 19:37
The power attack extra damage dice will be doubled as part of a critical hit.

The "Doubling and halving damage" section on page 451 says: "Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled."

Saeval
August 16th, 2019, 15:00
Personally I like rolling more dice because it's fun, so if you do add the x2 of normal damage hopefully there is a toggle of some kind to switch back. That's just my group's preference and opinion.

abeheron
September 30th, 2019, 14:02
Sorry, but I think having the option to double rather than rolling 2 dice is important because of Armor Specialization which reduces crit damage but no more than what was rolled on the single damage die. So Chain Specialization (non-heavy armor), will reduce the crit damage by 4, but no more than the original damage. So if my damage is 1d12+1 and I rolled a 1. Total damage using the doubling method is (2+1)*2 = 6 ==> 3 normal damage/ 3 crit damage, with the Chain Specialization reduces it by up to 4 down to a minimum of 3 damage (the original damage before doubling). When using the two dice approach, how would I know which die was the crit one? If damage is 1d12+1, and I roll 1,6... total damage is 7+2 = 9 ==> If 6 was the Crit die then Chain Spec reduces damage to 5 (7-4 +2), but if 1 was the Crit die, it reduces it to 7 (2-4(min 0) + 7).
Unless the code already handles Armor Specialization behind the scene...I haven't fully tested it.

Trenloe
September 30th, 2019, 14:46
When using the two dice approach, how would I know which die was the crit one?
It’s a different colour (green) - see the screenshot in posts #1 for an example.

Specializations have not been coded yet.

yarnevk
October 2nd, 2019, 19:29
It is more fun to see the dice explosion when you crit but you are more likely to do max damage with doubled damage (tradeoff also more likely to do min damage). Crits become more swingy with the double damage. Maybe they could throw fireworks out when the double damage crits happen so we can still have that exciting fun of more things going off.

yarnevk
October 2nd, 2019, 19:32
One of the Plaguestone uniques resists crits. That was implemented as resisting the second roll and modifier.

Trenloe
October 2nd, 2019, 19:43
One of the Plaguestone uniques resists crits. That was implemented as resisting the second roll and modifier.
Assuming you mean the "Blood Ooze"? If so, there's nothing special about that NPC record in Fall of Plaguestone - this is all in the ruleset. In this example, the ruleset parses out "critical hits" from the Immunities data and puts an effect of IMMUNE: critical on the creature when it's added to the combat tracker.

All critical damage in FG has the damage type "critical" added to that specific damage roll - see the damage text reported in the chat window in post #1 for an example. Hence why IMMUNE: critical will ignore all of the critical damage rolled.

abeheron
October 3rd, 2019, 02:13
It’s a different colour (green) - see the screenshot in posts #1 for an example.

Specializations have not been coded yet.

Hmm they both show up the same color for me (in the PFRPG2 module)... is there a setting I may have missed?

Trenloe
October 3rd, 2019, 04:56
Hmm they both show up the same color for me (in the PFRPG2 module)... is there a setting I may have missed?
Please provide a screenshot of the chat window showing the critical roll and the PC (or NPC) sheet where you're rolling for damage.

And how are you rolling a critical - i.e. how does FG know to roll critical damage? Just relying on the comparison of Attack result vs. AC? Clicking the "Critical" button in the modifiers window? Holding down Shift before rolling damage?

Elihu
October 16th, 2019, 02:21
It would be nice to have a double (x2) effect in the modifiers tool. I think that its more exciting to have the sporadic x2 to your roll, you are more likely to have max double damage instead of a mean balancing roll of multiple dice. More chaos, IMO is more fun.

yarnevk
October 16th, 2019, 18:08
Double damage is in fact the default rule to intentionally make for more swingy bosses with their high crit range. double die for more accurate swings is actually the optional rule.

That option needs to be available in the ruleset options window, alongside the optional crit hit/fumble options.

Does not make sense in the modifiers window as that is only for the next attack, and you do not know if your next attack is going to be a crit.

theMaXX
October 20th, 2019, 23:23
Hi, guys!
Is there a way to set the critical hit/fumble to work in a 20 or 1 results only? Right now the critical is working on a +10 threshold...
Also, is there a modifier to triple damage?
I'm trying to implement the critical hit deck... those functionalities would fit nicely.
thx!

Trenloe
October 20th, 2019, 23:35
Is there a way to set the critical hit/fumble to work in a 20 or 1 results only? Right now the critical is working on a +10 threshold...
That's RAW. You'd need to write an extension to handle something differently. There's a customer fCustomSetCriticalHit in manager_action_attack.lua that allows setting the critical hit state.


Also, is there a modifier to triple damage?
Only directly on the PC weapon damage entry. There's also a new custom fCustomCriticalHit function in the manager_action_damage.lua script that returns nCritMult.


I'm trying to implement the critical hit deck... those functionalities would fit nicely.
That's why the custom functions I mentioned above have been implemented - because I'm developing the official critical hit deck. The underlying functionality is developed, and one set of damage type data written. I need to do the other three damage types data and also develop custom tables for manual rolling, and documentation. But I'm concentrating on the Lost Omens Character Guide at the moment...

theMaXX
October 21st, 2019, 01:17
[QUOTE=Trenloe;457515]That's RAW. You'd need to write an extension to handle something differently. There's a customer fCustomSetCriticalHit in manager_action_attack.lua that allows setting the critical hit state.

For the critical deck purposes, the RAW is actually only on natural 20. However, an optional rule is to use those cards on every crit, if you want more chaos on your table.
I guess i can handle it manually, just ignoring the table if there's no natural 20, but the triple damage will be tricky to handle since i have no coding expertise.
An extra Critx3 modifier on modifiers tab would be a nice addon.

Trenloe
October 21st, 2019, 01:26
For the critical deck purposes, the RAW is actually only on natural 20.
Yep, but I was referring to the RAW as implemented in the PFRPG2 ruleset, not taking into account optional add-ons. And, to be perfectly honest, the rules and options in the critical hit deck are all over the place (I know, I've had to code them)... ;)


An extra Critx3 modifier on modifiers tab would be a nice addon.
I only want to use the modifier window for commonly used modifiers. x3 is, to the best of my knowledge, only used in the critical hit deck - which is completely optional and the x3 will be covered in the official release of the critical hit deck.

yarnevk
October 24th, 2019, 04:02
Is the criticial hit/fumble deck going to be cards and not dice? There is some real nasty stuff in there that really would not want the bad luck to roll again, be happy to leave it in the discard pile until everything is reshuffled.

Trenloe
October 24th, 2019, 14:39
Is the criticial hit/fumble deck going to be cards and not dice? There is some real nasty stuff in there that really would not want the bad luck to roll again, be happy to leave it in the discard pile until everything is reshuffled.
It's not going to be cards, because there's really no need for it. There are no nice images, no "hand" or dealing functionality, or anything really that makes it actual cards functionality. There's also nothing in the rules within the critical hit deck that say use discards then shuffle, etc.. But, of course, it's nice for the user to have options.

It will have two different ways of using it:

Automated as part of the critical roll. This will randomly select data from all possible results for the main damage type. There's no way to exclude any specific result from this. If you don't like what is selected, then "roll" again.
Manual via FG tables. This will allow you more control - roll again, ignore results, etc.. If you want to treat it more like a deck of cards then you can use the Basic Card Tables Extension (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23099-Basic-Card-Tables-Extensions) to simulate this.

yarnevk
October 25th, 2019, 02:41
if that extension converts any dice table to a cards table that will do the trick.

There are roll for death cards in there.....

Takamori
December 8th, 2019, 02:37
Appologies for the Necro, but I was searching through the logs to see if this was implemented/fixed the critical failure, failure, success and critical success system.
If not how you guys are proceeding during the combat tracker?

Trenloe
December 8th, 2019, 10:09
Appologies for the Necro, but I was searching through the logs to see if this was implemented/fixed the critical failure, failure, success and critical success system.
If not how you guys are proceeding during the combat tracker?
Can you explain what issues you're seeing?

You can see the current issues log, including fixes of previous issues, here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lxgAdEnUZru6GayTSxvs8fnuhupbg8rl835HwsGLDHg/edit?usp=sharing Search (CTRL+F) for critical to find related issues.

H2Os
February 17th, 2020, 15:04
Hello, I'm going to necro this thread again to see if I'm overlooking something. I expected this value to double (or roll 2 dice), but it didn't:

Reefclaw: [ATTACK (M)] Claw [1d20+9 = 24]
Attack [24] -> [at Fargrim Thunderbeard] [CRITICAL]
Reefclaw: [DAMAGE (M)] Claw [TYPE: slashing (1d6+1=5)] [1d6+1 = 5]
Damage [5] -> [to Fargrim Thunderbeard]
Is this the expected result?
Edit: I do have the multiattack ext on, I'll try turning that off.
Edit 2: Turning off the multiattack ext worked. Crits are now doubled.

GMScott
March 23rd, 2020, 02:30
Since the topic of options for double damage (p451) has been brought up in this thread, I'll add in another option that I've seen, and I'm currently using in my game.

I'll contrast this option with the two existing options for double damage:

Roll normal damage and then double the result.
Roll twice as many dice.


As has been mentioned before these both have the disadvantage of being able to roll less than a regular hit with unlucky dice.


With the option I've been using, a critical hit can never roll less damage than a regular hit. Although it's technically not a true doubling of damage, it makes critical hits hit hard all the time.

Roll the dice once, and then add that to what you would've gotten if you had rolled max damage. In effect, this option represents max damage on the weapon hit, plus an extra regular hit worth of damage.

Example:
A strength 14 character with a longsword.

Regular hit: 1d8+2
Critical hit: 1d8+12 i.e. 1d8+2 + (8+2)


Same character with a Rapier (deadly 1d8).

Regular hit: 1d6+2
Critical hit: 1d6+1d8+10 i.e. 1d6+2 +1d8 + (6+2)


It would be nice to have a checkbox option for this in campaign setup in addition to the other two.

Trenloe
March 23rd, 2020, 08:21
It would be nice to have a checkbox option for this in campaign setup in addition to the other two.
In general house rules like these aren't put in the base ruleset. Thing like this are usually left to a community developed extension.

Winchester
April 1st, 2020, 13:30
That's RAW. You'd need to write an extension to handle something differently. There's a customer fCustomSetCriticalHit in manager_action_attack.lua that allows setting the critical hit state.


Only directly on the PC weapon damage entry. There's also a new custom fCustomCriticalHit function in the manager_action_damage.lua script that returns nCritMult.


That's why the custom functions I mentioned above have been implemented - because I'm developing the official critical hit deck. The underlying functionality is developed, and one set of damage type data written. I need to do the other three damage types data and also develop custom tables for manual rolling, and documentation. But I'm concentrating on the Lost Omens Character Guide at the moment...

Hello there,

A search led me to this thread. I was looking for the critical hit deck to be on sale for fantasy grounds, but it was not. Was this table you mention made? (and for fumbles?)

Thank you for your work.

Trenloe
April 1st, 2020, 13:54
The critical deck is still being worked on. I haven't heard of any community based work, which would be very limited in terms of wording.

Shinrei123
May 4th, 2020, 11:34
Dear

I looked up in teh Pathfinder Second Edition Ruleset - Bug tracker and see that Critical damage rolls use all dice (i.e don't roll base and double) this is an "optional" way of doing it (as mentioned in the Core Rules) was resolved as Currently using "optional" mode of rolling all dice with status "under review".

I have recently tested the critical hit system and I see that at this moment it is set up as the optional rule. Are there plans to change this to the RAW double damage?

Thank you for your time and wonderful work!

Trenloe
May 4th, 2020, 11:44
I looked up in teh Pathfinder Second Edition Ruleset - Bug tracker and see that Critical damage rolls use all dice (i.e don't roll base and double) this is an "optional" way of doing it (as mentioned in the Core Rules) was resolved as Currently using "optional" mode of rolling all dice with status "under review".

I have recently tested the critical hit system and I see that at this moment it is set up as the optional rule. Are there plans to change this to the RAW double damage?
Welcome to the FG forums!

I haven't implemented the one option available in the Core rules (roll dice and double). It's not actually that simple to do within the ruleset framework. It will be done at some point, but it's not a high priority for me. You can argue statistics, but rolling all dice doesn't remove anything from the game. I believe, and that can be discussed, that the roll dice and double option was created to keep the game moving at a physical table, where a player might not have all the dice, or has to roll some, add, roll some more... This is eluded to in the text in the Core rules book. With FG you don't have that issue. And, a lot of people like seeing more dice rolling for a critical! Like I said, you can argue the stats (rolling more dice gives more of an average than extremes), but what is being done in the FG ruleset is not the wrong way (it's a perfectly valid approach detailed in the Core Rules), it doesn't give a different max or min, just a slightly different statistical spread.

Like I say, it will come, but it's not a priority for me at this point.

Shinrei123
May 4th, 2020, 11:52
Hi Trenloe

I agree with your view and am happy to see you set your priorities straight. I do believe there are other projects with higher priorities.
BUUUUUT I'm kinda a stickler for rules so I would love to see it work as described RAW.

Anyways, thank you for the swift reply! And let me also tell you I was happily surprised to see things as deadly and fatal working perfectly! Especially considering these are more likely the things my players would forget or make a mistake against.

Trenloe
May 4th, 2020, 11:58
BUUUUUT I'm kinda a stickler for rules so I would love to see it work as described RAW.
The details on rolling all dice are in the exact same paragraph regarding double damage - so they are in the rules as written! :D

I get what you're saying though... It'll come... I've re-reached out to a community member who said they'd written an extension to do this. If their code works fine, and they're OK with me using it in the base ruleset, it may come quicker...

DiggleDuggle
May 6th, 2020, 21:50
BUUUUUT I'm kinda a stickler for rules so I would love to see it work as described RAW.



There is a way to double the damage on a critical instead of having it roll twice as many dice.

Download the multiattack extension so that criticals get ignored, then manually drag the damage onto the target a second time.

Done! You've doubled the damage. Now you can breathe easy

Trenloe
May 6th, 2020, 21:52
There is a way to double the damage on a critical instead of having it roll twice as many dice.

Download the multiattack extension so that criticals get ignored, then manually drag the damage onto the target a second time.

Done! You've doubled the damage. Now you can breathe easy
Haha, I don't think it'll quite do it correctly, but that's thinking outside of the box! :D

Argonautking
September 13th, 2020, 04:22
Another non-5e feature that'll be 'included in an update soon' for the next two years!

Trenloe
September 13th, 2020, 10:17
Another non-5e feature that'll be 'included in an update soon' for the next two years!
Err, not sure where any of this came from. Have you seen the number of updates to the PFRPG2 ruleset (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?52400-PFRPG2-ruleset-update-tracking-thread) that have come out over the last year? Way, way, way, more than 5E updates. So not sure where you're coming from or what you're hoping to achieve by making this post.

Shieldstromme
September 13th, 2020, 22:40
Another non-5e feature that'll be 'included in an update soon' for the next two years!

Seriously? Have you SEEN the amount of work Trenloe has put into this ruleset? He's frankly doing an Awesome job!

dsaraujo
September 14th, 2020, 01:43
Just quickly dropping to send Trenloe love and energy as well. Sorry for off-topic.

Lone Pathfinder
December 6th, 2021, 05:31
Hi there, recently got into Pathfinder 2e on Fantasy Grounds. Was really looking forward to the way critical damage is used by default (2X) rather than rolling twice the dice but was a little dissapointed to see it set up as double dice. Is there any update with this ruling? Or alternatively is there any home-brew extensions for this? Thanks

Trenloe
December 6th, 2021, 19:09
Is there any update with this ruling?
The information in post #38 still applies: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50284-Setting-up-double-damage-Critical-hits&p=505096&viewfull=1#post505096

Lone Pathfinder
December 7th, 2021, 05:29
That's great that the alternate ruling is in there but I would like to play with the default rules. It's a personal preference. It would be awesome if that was added as opposed to rolling twice.

spoonhead
December 10th, 2021, 04:24
That's great that the alternate ruling is in there but I would like to play with the default rules. It's a personal preference. It would be awesome if that was added as opposed to rolling twice.

Theogeek has just updated his extension to allow for double damage in PF2. Try it out to see if it works.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?61376-5E-Theogeek-s-Improved-Critical

Zaister
December 10th, 2021, 08:05
Please count another vote for implementing the default critical damage generation. I know Trenloe said the traditional method is also in the rules, and yes, it is, but it is also clearly marked as an exception/optional rule ("The GM might allow you to roll the dice twice..."). I really don't think this is a minor issue. Critical hit damage dealing is not a fringe case, it's an intergral part of this game, and I think it should work as intended. Thanks for your consideration.

Zaister
December 10th, 2021, 09:23
(deleted for double post)

Trenloe
December 10th, 2021, 15:09
If this was a simple thing to do, it would have been done a long time ago. The way the ruleset code asynchronously handles the damage dice, modifiers, resistances, weaknesses and vulnerabilities make it an incredibly complex process to change. It may sound simple, but believe me it's not.

I've said many time I will look into it at some point, but there are other things higher up the priority list at this point (2022-11 compatibility, secrets of magic functionality, guns and gears functionality, to name but three).

Lone Pathfinder
December 11th, 2021, 03:36
One way I've found a work around it is to just untarget the creature and roll damage as normal. Then right click on the damage and put the 2X modifier on it in the chat window. Then you drag and drop the new damage onto the target. Bit of extra work but it's smooth and simple.

Trenloe
December 11th, 2021, 05:02
One way I've found a work around it is to just untarget the creature and roll damage as normal. Then right click on the damage and put the 2X modifier on it in the chat window. Then you drag and drop the new damage onto the target. Bit of extra work but it's smooth and simple.
Unfortunately it's not that simple. As I've been trying to explain in this thread - it's not just a case of rolling the base damage and doubling it. What about weapons with the deadly or fatal trait that add or change dice when critical damage is done? What about damaging a creature that's immune to critical damage (an ooze for example)? And there are many other cases where the damage functionality, damage types and how it's all handled is very different from just doubling the base damage - and the majority of these are automatically covered in the current damage/critical damage implementation, and it's not a simple task to migrate the current code to doubling what needs to be doubled and adding in extra dice (that aren't doubled) and then handling resistances, weaknesses and invulnerabilities across the whole final damage data (which could end up with multiple damage instances within the single damage action).

Lone Pathfinder
December 11th, 2021, 07:05
Is there anything that we can do to help out with this endeavour?

Trenloe
December 11th, 2021, 16:10
Is there anything that we can do to help out with this endeavour?
Thanks for offering, but it’s something I need to spend a lot of time developing when it comes up in my priority list.

Lone Pathfinder
December 23rd, 2021, 03:26
No worries. Thanks for all your hard work already. Looking forward to giving it a try with a couple of my groups soon.

vonBlashyrkh
December 27th, 2021, 11:55
if we're counting raised hands, I'm actually more a fan of the roll more dice as currently implemented in FG rather than roll once and double the result. Core rulebook suggests the GM may allow this - I suspect the only reason it isn't default is the handfuls of dice it would generate at a physical tabletop, which is not an obstacle in a VTT

Zaister
December 27th, 2021, 12:24
if we're counting raised hands, I'm actually more a fan of the roll more dice as currently implemented in FG rather than roll once and double the result. Core rulebook suggests the GM may allow this - I suspect the only reason it isn't default is the handfuls of dice it would generate at a physical tabletop, which is not an obstacle in a VTT

So you are advovcating against adding in the default rule? Or what else is the purpose of your raised hand?

vonBlashyrkh
December 27th, 2021, 15:27
I'd like there to be the choice so people can use whichever they prefer. What we have now with doubling dice and applying traits such as fatal, deadly and so on works very well and is given as a GM choice in the same paragraph in the PF2 Core Rulebook on how to double or halve damage, so both options are as valid as the other.
But I would not be in favour of removing one method in order to replace it with the other. Hence my display of favour for the current implementation.
As Trenloe mentioned, he's got a lot of other work to do with ruleset updates so that we can move forward with releases such as Secrets of Magic or Guns & Gears and so on, which seems a better use of his limited time to this observer.