DMing: real and theoretical problems in my case. [Archive]

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Yehudah

July 31st, 2019, 15:48

mattekure

July 31st, 2019, 16:08

In my experience, DM controlled PC's rarely work well. From a players perspective, there is the huge problem of character vs DM knowledge and behavior. Its very difficult for a DM to really separate the knowledge/behavior for a controlled PC as part of the party with the rest of the world. If you are wanting to use the opportunity to enjoy role playing, remember that as DM you have the opportunity to role play everything else in the world besides the PC. That can include allies as well as enemies, supporting the party and working against them. Sometimes the DM will use their controlled PC to push the story in directions they want, or make their controlled PC the center of the story which is not enjoyable for all the other players.

There is nothing wrong with theater of the mind type narrating of dungeons. It can work well for setting tone if you are well prepared. A map is nice when players really want to know how their characters positions relate to each other and to the NPC's, but with theater of the mind, you can simplify it to close (melee range), nearby (short ranged), far (outside of short ranged but still in the area) and far away (outside of combat range).

LordEntrails

July 31st, 2019, 16:16

I put together (with the help of others) a thread full of links to various advice articles. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36014-GM-Advice IMO it's a good place to start.

Running what's called a DMPC is generally considered a bad idea. Even if you do a perfect job of separating DM'ing from PC'ing, the perception of or the prospect of treating your PC differently than the others is often enough to cause resentment among others. Note that doesn't mean a DMPC never works, but in my experience it has to be among a group that has played together a long time and know each other well with a high level of trust and respect. Also, as DM you are going to have tons of things to do when you are playing. Running a character is just one more thing. And it's one thing that gives you more spotlight and the other players less. That's why even with people I've played with for decades, when I DM, I don't run a PC and I don't have DM NPC's that are key to the story that travel with the party either.

None of that has to do with if you are an adversarial DM or not. It's just how things work.

Narrating is not a problem at all. But that said, if you have poor spatial awareness, then I think you are going to cause all sorts of problems without a map. For instance, if you can't make a mental picture in your mind of the dungeon, then how are you going to be accurate in your descriptions and not make an impossible maze? That said, you don't have to show the players your map. Just sketch it out on graph paper with a pencil so you have a consistent image/geometry. Or, just take a map you find online and re-purpose it to your dungeon.

Trenloe

July 31st, 2019, 16:19

Watch this video for some ideas on Theatre of the Mind in FG: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43227-quot-Theatrical-Maps-quot-for-Theater-of-the-Mind-combats

Yeah, don't have a GM ran PC. If the party is small/needs help then there's the time honoured tradition of NPCs/Henchmen (or sidekicks as the recent D&D Essentials Kit is calling them). But let the players run these and low-hassle second PCs. Sure, you can occasionally interject with a little bit of character RPG from them ("You want me to do WHAT???").

In the end, you're the GM. You get the enjoyment from making a work, weaving a story, challenging your players, role-playing NPCs and enjoying all that entails. You're not there to have your own PC - there's a reason why they're called "player" characters.

I think you should definitely run some smaller games before setting off on your big campaign. Do some one shots. Run some commercial adventures - change them as you need, but you'll learn a lot from just playing, and at this stage in your RPG "career" I think that is the most important - play and learn, worry about the huge campaign later...

Talyn

July 31st, 2019, 16:24

This is probably one of those things where you ask five people and get seven different answers. So here's mine:

Alright so I've resigned myself that it's going to have to be the DM in my circle of friends.

I'll be controversial right from the start: this is a poor attitude to have. Oh, I know, I know! There are hundreds and thousands of cases where the only way to play the game is to run the game, and you'll get that advice a lot due to lack of GMs out there. But still, be aware that this attitude could also be sitting down at the table to have your RPG meal with a side order of resentment.

This has multiple problems for me. Or at least I think it will. I would like to have my own character in the party, but that seems like a conflict of interest, and I probably cannot have one because of it.

It's a massive, massive conflict of interest. Google "GMPC horror stories" for just a taste. Now, GM PCs can certainly be pulled off but it requires a lot of experience (which usually comes from making a lot of mistakes) and a deft hand, and allowing the GM PC to never quite be in the spotlight. Whatever story occurs in the game, that story is about the players and the decisions they make for their characters individually and as a group. If you feel inclined to have your own story, the best advice everyone will give is: put down the dice, pick up your laptop, and write your novel. Keep it out of the game.

Now honestly, I DON’T want the party to fail. Just the opposite. So, a positive bias could also be a problem. I may have to do multiple smallish campaigns to truly figure everything out.
I have another friend who may be helping me as a co-DM. He’s trained in narrative.
Are there any tricks to help myself remain objective?

This is a fantastic attitude! Your "job" as the GM (DM for D&D) is to be a cheerleader for the characters. Hopefully for the players too. When the characters appear to be in a rough spot, give the players a "c'mon, we can do this!" Cheer their high rolls, and critical hits! Your monsters and NPCs are there to be defeated, after all. Again, the story is about those characters. But a good, memorable story requires conflict (which does not mean combat!), failure and setbacks. Look at action movies: nearly all of them, the hero(es) get their butts kicked and/or have some major setbacks along their journey, and that provides them the incentive to chase after the Big Bads and learn how to defeat them. That is "leveling up" in a nutshell. Provide the players with a world for their characters to adventure in, and challenges for their characters. Some of those challenges will be insurmountable at first. Those might be the ones the players decide to level up and come back to later. Or they might decide to not bother and chase some other objective. This is fine, too. Don't put up invisible walls and force the players to make their characters do what you want. On a related note, when you come up with challenges (say a puzzle) don't come up with a solution, because that can be too tempting to just say "this is the one and only solution" because your players are not inside your brain and they will never come up with the exact scenario and solution that you did. Let them be creative, come up with their own solutions, and you roll with it and make it happen, and cheer them along the way for their creativity. It's all about positive reinforcement to the players. The more you cheer them on, pat them on the back, the more involved and proactive people tend to get.

Is it considered bad form to narrate dungeons, rather than having physical maps? I ask because it might make it a little easier to prepare, as I’m going to have to design a lot of dungeons otherwise. Something I’ve done a little experimenting with but definitely I don’t know much in the way of design rules. I also have poor visual-spatial reasoning. It’s kind of like a murky darkness up there.

IRL, I only do theater of the mind. I do not own a single mini or a single bit of terrain, and I never plan to. At most, I'll grab some scratch paper and make a crude line drawing, but no grids or tactical positioning whatsoever. However, on Fantasy Grounds when I am a player, I notice that (because I have pretty serious attention issues) if I don't have something to look at and/or interact with, my mind wanders off and I totally miss whatever narrative the GM is describing. A great visual aid for theater of the mind combat on FG is Doug's "Theatrical Map" (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43227-quot-Theatrical-Maps-quot-for-Theater-of-the-Mind-combats) for just that purpose. (Other community members have created their own versions since then as well; do a forum search.)

Yehudah

July 31st, 2019, 17:47

The advice given here is of GREAT value. I'm taking it all into account. I'm not going to make a GMPC for sure now.
I do have an idea to posit. However, I'm gonna have to put more thought into the idea before I post it here. It's not fully formed at the moment. It's related to having a co-DM. Apologies it's just I'm thinking experimentally and I'm pretty distracted. I had to take some medication to relax myself. trying to keep away the anxiety and depression. Don't worry it's Dr. prescribed. Yeah I know, I'm not exactly normal.
Anyway, I'll leave a comment here which might get some feedback:
My friend Jack, if I end up having him as a co-DM, and he may not have all the info i have, what kind of functions can he do? How can we add to the experience? Are there any special things we can do, which make things better, more interesting, or easier in some way?

Hendell

July 31st, 2019, 18:10

LordEntrails

July 31st, 2019, 18:18

So I've never used a co-DM, but here are some things I can think of;

During play;
- Roll play NPC's especially if he likes doing voices and personalities. If the NPC is outlines (does this, doesn't do this, talks like this, has these behaviors) then it can be a great deal of fun to have someone who acts out the character.
- provide environmental descriptions
- act as cartographer, i.e. make a map as the party goes of what they see/know.
- at a table, do everything the combat tracker in FG does. With FG, move the NPC tokens?

Before/After play;
- Be the artist. maps, portraits, scenics
- tract experience and treasure so that you stay on track at whatever rate you want
- create NPC personalities for towns, villages etc.
- anything else they are willing to prep that you don't enjoy

Yehudah

July 31st, 2019, 18:39

Yehudah

July 31st, 2019, 18:42

I would suggest using lost mines of Phandelver for a start. I think it is a very good starting module.
see how that goes and modify to fit so you have fun when you go for a bigger campaign.
you may find out you enjoy running the games more once you get started.

I know about phandelver but I'm basically broke. Things are very difficult for my family right now. However we are very blessed. our friend Michael has been doing car repairs and roof repairs (its hard and painstacking) and he allows us to pay him when we are able. Another thing to note is I'm somehwat out of it right now due to the meds.it was necessary today (not yesterday. I did well yesterday) to relax myself. I understand everything commented, but I am slow right now.

LordEntrails

July 31st, 2019, 21:00

alright I'll keep these things in mind. The cartographer occurred to me. Would this be a combined DMNPC?
Nope, not a role playing character, but a real person who is mapping things out. Traditionally it's one of the players who makes a map based upon the description provided by the DM. But if the DM has an assistant, then that person can see the real map and make the player facing map without giving away any secrets.

Yehudah

July 31st, 2019, 22:53

Nope, not a role playing character, but a real person who is mapping things out. Traditionally it's one of the players who makes a map based upon the description provided by the DM. But if the DM has an assistant, then that person can see the real map and make the player facing map without giving away any secrets.

I'll keep that in mind. LordEntrails, I cannot respond to your private message because it says your inbox is full.

LordEntrails

August 1st, 2019, 00:55

I'll keep that in mind. LordEntrails, I cannot respond to your private message because it says your inbox is full.
Inbox cleanup up. You should be able to PM me now :)

Yehudah

August 1st, 2019, 11:27

Inbox cleanup up. You should be able to PM me now :)

Sent. thanks.

GavinRuneblade

August 6th, 2019, 11:16

Alright so I've resigned myself that it's going to have to be the DM in my circle of friends.
This has multiple problems for me. Or at least I think it will. I would like to have my own character in the party, but that seems like a conflict of interest, and I probably cannot have one because of it. Now honestly, I DON’T want the party to fail. Just the opposite. So, a positive bias could also be a problem. I may have to do multiple smallish campaigns to truly figure everything out.
I have another friend who may be helping me as a co-DM. He’s trained in narrative.
Are there any tricks to help myself remain objective?

The thing with DM controlled PCs is that if you think of it as a PC it is a problem. If you run NPCs that travel with the party for a while for their own purposes and may or may not be actually loyal to the group... that is something different. The way to keep it objective is to not have it be set up for progress and power gain, levelling, etc. It is an NPC and it has story-related goals that it is seeking to achieve and those are its rewards, not levels.

I personally also never let an NPC solve problems for the party or make decisions for the party. They provide advice and answer questions but they aren't someone the PCs can trust the way they trust each other and know they are part of a joint social compact to work as a team for the sake of the game. When their goals are complete or cannot be complete, then they leave. My players know that they can round up a posse of local militia to help with some enemies, like bandits, but not others, like a dragon or vampire. They might be able to convince that retired adventurer who gave them advice to come with them for one last adventure. Or they might make an alliance with one of two rival factions that includes having a traveling companion for a while. But they never make the mistake of thinking that NPC is "one of us". And they know that I play all my NPCs true to the story, without giving them special treatment because "this one is mine personally".

My record for having a single NPC travel with a party is about 15-ish sessions out of a 200+session campaign. A dragon bit off his body leaving just the head for the party to find or he might have made it to 20.

Is it considered bad form to narrate dungeons, rather than having physical maps? I ask because it might make it a little easier to prepare, as I’m going to have to design a lot of dungeons otherwise. Something I’ve done a little experimenting with but definitely I don’t know much in the way of design rules. I also have poor visual-spatial reasoning. It’s kind of like a murky darkness up there.
Many game systems are designed to work without maps. But there is a long tradition of DMs with crappy maps. Dave Arneson, who invented D&D with Gygax, famously used butcher paper and markers and drew the maps by hand as they played. I started with pads of paper and eventually upgraded to graph paper so I could draw actual squares.

Instead of miniatures there's a whole ton of "standees" which are paper that you print, cut out, and fold then glue or tape so they stand up and they have monster or character pictures on the front and back. Some of them look amazing (https://onemonk.com/papercuts-2013.html). Some are just pictures on paper (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inkwellideas/monster-stand-ins-plastic-card-miniatures). Some are done using 3d imaging but at varying levels of skill (https://www.survivor-history.com/HttLWFigSheet.jpg). But the price is basically whatever your local kinkos charges for 1 page of a color photocopy.

If you want to go full on narrative, check out the advice and blogs and articles and videos for games like Dungeon World or 13th Age. Those are built without maps or measurements. Distances are concepts like in melee range, nearby, and far like mattkure explained earlier in this thread. Powers/spells/actions have rules for how many people they can effect, typically stuff like if you play it safe you can target 2 but going for a third ends up catching an ally as collateral damage.

For starting DMs, my favorite sources of advice are:
Matt Colville (https://www.youtube.com/user/mcolville)
Cody at Taking20 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCly0Thn_yZouwdJtg7Am62A)
Sly Flourish (https://slyflourish.com/)
The AngryGM (https://theangrygm.com/)

And specifically to help with running combat: The Monsters Know What They're Doing (https://themonstersknow.com/)

If you look on the DM's Guild, there's a ton of great stuff for free (https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?pto=0&pfrom=0) or "pay what you wan (https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?pwyw=true)t". Maps, adventures, DM guides, etc.

Yehudah

August 6th, 2019, 20:37

The thing with DM controlled PCs is that if you think of it as a PC it is a problem. If you run NPCs that travel with the party for a while for their own purposes and may or may not be actually loyal to the group... that is something different. The way to keep it objective is to not have it be set up for progress and power gain, levelling, etc. It is an NPC and it has story-related goals that it is seeking to achieve and those are its rewards, not levels.

I personally also never let an NPC solve problems for the party or make decisions for the party. They provide advice and answer questions but they aren't someone the PCs can trust the way they trust each other and know they are part of a joint social compact to work as a team for the sake of the game. When their goals are complete or cannot be complete, then they leave. My players know that they can round up a posse of local militia to help with some enemies, like bandits, but not others, like a dragon or vampire. They might be able to convince that retired adventurer who gave them advice to come with them for one last adventure. Or they might make an alliance with one of two rival factions that includes having a traveling companion for a while. But they never make the mistake of thinking that NPC is "one of us". And they know that I play all my NPCs true to the story, without giving them special treatment because "this one is mine personally".

My record for having a single NPC travel with a party is about 15-ish sessions out of a 200+session campaign. A dragon bit off his body leaving just the head for the party to find or he might have made it to 20.

Many game systems are designed to work without maps. But there is a long tradition of DMs with crappy maps. Dave Arneson, who invented D&D with Gygax, famously used butcher paper and markers and drew the maps by hand as they played. I started with pads of paper and eventually upgraded to graph paper so I could draw actual squares.

Instead of miniatures there's a whole ton of "standees" which are paper that you print, cut out, and fold then glue or tape so they stand up and they have monster or character pictures on the front and back. Some of them look amazing (https://onemonk.com/papercuts-2013.html). Some are just pictures on paper (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inkwellideas/monster-stand-ins-plastic-card-miniatures). Some are done using 3d imaging but at varying levels of skill (https://www.survivor-history.com/HttLWFigSheet.jpg). But the price is basically whatever your local kinkos charges for 1 page of a color photocopy.

If you want to go full on narrative, check out the advice and blogs and articles and videos for games like Dungeon World or 13th Age. Those are built without maps or measurements. Distances are concepts like in melee range, nearby, and far like mattkure explained earlier in this thread. Powers/spells/actions have rules for how many people they can effect, typically stuff like if you play it safe you can target 2 but going for a third ends up catching an ally as collateral damage.

For starting DMs, my favorite sources of advice are:
Matt Colville (https://www.youtube.com/user/mcolville)
Cody at Taking20 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCly0Thn_yZouwdJtg7Am62A)
Sly Flourish (https://slyflourish.com/)
The AngryGM (https://theangrygm.com/)

And specifically to help with running combat: The Monsters Know What They're Doing (https://themonstersknow.com/)

If you look on the DM's Guild, there's a ton of great stuff for free (https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?pto=0&pfrom=0) or "pay what you wan (https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?pwyw=true)t". Maps, adventures, DM guides, etc.

thanks! i'm bookmarking all of this.

TheoGeek

August 7th, 2019, 23:40

I'm a friendly DM. I want the players to have fun, and sometimes having fun is a super dangerous encounter, and sometimes having fun is "YES!!! I HIT THE GUY'S EYE WITH AN ARROW THROUGH THE HOLE IN THE DOOR!"

You'll screw up, but you will learn. Ask for grace, and if they are having fun, they won't care. :)

Aramis Dante

December 24th, 2020, 00:09

I love theatre of the mind games. You really don't need a map very often anyways if you remember these five things. What, when, where, how and who. Make those descriptions for each setting you plan on having an encounter in and your job is 90% done, Use a Theasarus and dictionary, my best friends. The other 10% is just acting, which you would do anyways as a player. Also, if you have trouble imagining distance, particulairly in a dungeon. Two things, buy a tape measure and measure out a hallway, a room, or whatever. To get an idea of the area you will be playing in. Second if you can get permission to walk through a house under construction, NO TRESSPASSING, that wil give you a god's eye view of actual distances. As a last resort you dont have to map out an entire dungeon just the rooms that you will have encounters in most will probably be standard 10x10 or so rooms anyways. But the Five things I mentioned above are crucial in giving the illusion that each room is unique and different.

Example 1. [10x10] You enter a room that is covered in soot, the room extends two average body (human) lengths in either direction. At the far side is what appears to be a passageway, smoke pours from it, giving the room a sulphuric smell. You can tell from the burned surfaces of the table to your immediate left that whatever transpired, happened recently. The table is still warm to the touch. To your right is what is left of a bookcase, and the floor had what was once a beautiful rug, now charred and worthless. This appears to have been a study in better times. To confirm your suspicions, a charred writing desks stands on the other side of the table you recently touched.

Example 2. [10x10] As you draw closer to this room, the heat becomes almost unbearable, you can see flames ascending from the center of the room, as you get closer, the sweat pouring from every open pore of your body, you see that the room is a giant pit. The source of the fire is unclear for just glancing at the flames burns your eyes with glistening tears. You notice that there is about an armlength of flooring surrounding the room. The floor is hard surfaced because no wood flooring would stand to the heat of this fiery pit. The flames lap up to a vent of some sort, it appears to be of some kind of metal. On the other side of the room is another passage way. The question now is can you make it to the other side or not.

Both examples are a theatre of the mind and both use 10x10 rooms. If you had to draw a square for each one with a pit and one without. Your done. Monsters are up to you. Remember to use a tape measure if in doubt