Comparing D&D Editions and CRPG Discussion

[Yehudah]

(Apologies if there is a better subsection to post this. I’m posting it here based on discord feedback. Feel free to move it.)

I’m gonna do a bit of conflating crpg versions and table top simply due to my experience with them.
I wanted to make a thread for discussing the different editions of D&D, how they compare/contrast, and possible applications of the rules.
AD&D, 2e (2e is more or less a moderate revision of 1e), has some kind of special merit to it seems, since it’s been around since what the 80s? 20 years without massive overhauls. 1979-1999 is a long time for minor revisions. Why is that? Why did they need to move to 3e, and considering 3e revised to 3.5 in maybe 2 years, doesn’t that mean 3.0 was a bit broken?
4e seems to have gone a bit off the rails. I’ve spent a bit of time playing the MMO Neverwinter, but I’m not sure if it even remotely is accurate to 4e. I really like Forgotten Realms lore, and it’s “free” to play, so I’ve spent some time playing it. I’ve seen the comment 4e was almost itself mmo-ized. But I wonder if the Neverwinter mmo took that even further.

What are Table Top veterans’ opinions on AD&D vs 3.x vs 4e vs 5e. Furthermore, for those of you who’ve played D&D based video games, how faithful do you think they are to their respective versions?
My impression is that 5e is a modest or moderate revision of 3.5. Is this accurate?

Having beaten Baldur’s Gate and Siege of Dragonspear recently, I’m impressed at how well the large-scale battles were handled. I do not know how much rules were fudged, or additional spell slots / ability slots were required for the npcs. Anyway, I can almost see how a strategy-ish AD&D rules game might work. Large battles, but the npcs fight individualistically more or less. Same would apply to 3.x and 5, (probably 4 as well.)

Please feel free to comment on anything you’d like. All comments welcome!

[Nylanfs]

The primary reason for AD&D to 3e was because D&D as a brand and system was on the verge of dying. There were LOTS of mismanagement from TSR in the last years that could have killed it. Peter, Ryan, & the others involved with WotC bought TSR and released 3e under the OGL for the express purpose of ensuring that the system couldn't die on a vine due to management.

[Yehudah]

The primary reason for AD&D to 3e was because D&D as a brand and system was on the verge of dying. There were LOTS of mismanagement from TSR in the last years that could have killed it. Peter, Ryan, & the others involved with WotC bought TSR and released 3e under the OGL for the express purpose of ensuring that the system couldn't die on a vine due to management.

I see. I understand it a little better. I have to say though I'm not impressed with Wizards behavior over the past several years though. :/

I really, REALLY, want the One Chosen Hero to leak the Infinity Engine source code. There has never been a better D&D crpg than the original Baldur's Gate. IE might also be the definitive tool for producing adventures. Or it would've been if we could get ahold of a toolset or the source code, or both. At this point, I'm really doubting there will be another again.

I cannot comment with authority. My preliminary opinion of 5e is VERY positive. However, what we've desperately needed are several things. For one, these hobbies are very expensive. That being said... remember Sword Coast Legends? I never got the chance to play it. they botched one of the BEST IDEAS EVER for a D&D crpg. 4 players, 1 DM. A considerable degree of freedom for the DM, within the limitations necessary to make it practical. It's gone. You cannot play it. You cannot even play it if you already have a copy on Steam through a lan hosting service. It's just gone. Apparently it wasn't that good either.
We have Neverwinter, which is an extremely abusive game monetization wise. It's not a bad game, but it's not much more than a time waster.

[Nylanfs]

The core people that started WotC and largely saved D&D from going dormant sold the company to Hasbro and then left. So the majority of the issues you have with WotC are probably due to Hasbro decisions.

[Yehudah]

The core people that started WotC and largely saved D&D from going dormant sold the company to Hasbro and then left. So the majority of the issues you have with WotC are probably due to Hasbro decisions.

Well I don't know much about that. I don't tend to make distinctions between parent companies and the face of the company.

[LordEntrails]

D&D doesn't seem to be an expensive hobby to me. Of course it depends on who foots the bill, what they feel they need to buy, and how much they use it. Let's see, if you went with an FG Ultimate license, the PHB, MM, and DMG that costs what ~$250? Throw in one of the APs and round it up to $300. Might seem steep upfront, but now how much use do people get out of it? I'm guessing, and it depends a whole lot, but one of my groups that is running WDDH right now will probably get at least 200 hours of fun. That's $1.50/hr divided by the whole group. And then the next AP is only $50 for 200 hours.

If I compare that to a round of golf, prices are all over, but say $45 for 3 hours. That's $15/hr per person. And that's assuming I don't need clubs, shoes, etc.

If I go do "shooting", that's an easy $500 for the gun and $100/hr for ammo and range fees. Though again, very dependent upon the gun, the ammo, and the range.

Ok, how about a cup of Starbuck's? That's what $5 for 30 minutes of drink? Or a bar where you might order 2 drinks per hour for $15?

How about a computer game? Well, I spend at least $800 for the computer and peripherals. Then the game is $50 for 200 hours of fun?

Now, I could play cops and robbers outside with my friends and pay $5 for some plastic costume pieces and guns etc. And get hundred or thousands of hours of fun out of that.

It all depends. But compared to what else you spend money on, are RPGs really that expensive? Only you can answer that.

[Yehudah]

D&D doesn't seem to be an expensive hobby to me. Of course it depends on who foots the bill, what they feel they need to buy, and how much they use it. Let's see, if you went with an FG Ultimate license, the PHB, MM, and DMG that costs what ~$250? Throw in one of the APs and round it up to $300. Might seem steep upfront, but now how much use do people get out of it? I'm guessing, and it depends a whole lot, but one of my groups that is running WDDH right now will probably get at least 200 hours of fun. That's $1.50/hr divided by the whole group. And then the next AP is only $50 for 200 hours.

If I compare that to a round of golf, prices are all over, but say $45 for 3 hours. That's $15/hr per person. And that's assuming I don't need clubs, shoes, etc.

If I go do "shooting", that's an easy $500 for the gun and $100/hr for ammo and range fees. Though again, very dependent upon the gun, the ammo, and the range.

Ok, how about a cup of Starbuck's? That's what $5 for 30 minutes of drink? Or a bar where you might order 2 drinks per hour for $15?

How about a computer game? Well, I spend at least $800 for the computer and peripherals. Then the game is $50 for 200 hours of fun?

Now, I could play cops and robbers outside with my friends and pay $5 for some plastic costume pieces and guns etc. And get hundred or thousands of hours of fun out of that.

It all depends. But compared to what else you spend money on, are RPGs really that expensive? Only you can answer that.

Err, my apologies. It seems i'm biased because of my situation. I effective DON'T have hobbies that don't directly rely on friends and family. I have no income and therefore am extremely limited in what I can do. As a result, everything seems extremely expensive to me.

[LordEntrails]

Err, my apologies. It seems i'm biased because of my situation. I effective DON'T have hobbies that don't directly rely on friends and family. I have no income and therefore am extremely limited in what I can do. As a result, everything seems extremely expensive to me.
That's understandable and why I tried to make it clear it all depends :) Like any hobby, it can be expensive. I was just trying to indicate that compared to many other ways to expand disposable income it's not expensive.

One thing to keep in mind, if you are looking for an way to build or supplement a small income, you could take after some of the folks around here like Rob2e making and selling FG related content on the DMsGuild. It may not be your thing, and it's not going to make you rich, but you can create and make enough money to pay for your hobby, or even more, their are a few folks who do pretty well, depending upon what you consider :)

[Yehudah]

That's understandable and why I tried to make it clear it all depends :) Like any hobby, it can be expensive. I was just trying to indicate that compared to many other ways to expand disposable income it's not expensive.

One thing to keep in mind, if you are looking for an way to build or supplement a small income, you could take after some of the folks around here like Rob2e making and selling FG related content on the DMsGuild. It may not be your thing, and it's not going to make you rich, but you can create and make enough money to pay for your hobby, or even more, their are a few folks who do pretty well, depending upon what you consider :)

Hey that's a really good idea. I actually WAS thinking about that. But if I do that, I probably would have to accept payment in goods, not money. Allow me to explain. My insurance is paid through medicaid, because I am, as I've said before, crippled by an immune system disorder that requires infusions each month (they would cost over 7 thousand dollars....) and unfortunately If I work, which is not necessarily easy for me physically to do to begin with, I risk losing that insurance. So you can see why this is a bit of a problem situation for me.
I DO occasionally do digital painting, but I'm not good at it. My primary skill would likely be writing, probably writing background stories, settings for campaigns, things like that. I have two BA's. One of which is in History. The other is called "Interdisciplinary studies" where I learned some elements of three fields. Those would be Modern Lettings and Language, (de facto journalism), Judaic Studies, and Anthropology (largely cultural but also for archaeology). I'm not a particularly intelligent person, and I don't really have many skills. I attempted to learn programming two times seriously, and 3-4 times not so seriously, and it was a brutal struggle. I couldn't do it. I don't know how good I would be at writing, and I think it unlikely anyone would want to hire me. But I would be willing to try it.

[LordEntrails]

There is some information here (DMsG FAQ (https://support.dmsguild.com/hc/en-us/categories/202531048-DMs-Guild-General-Information)) about the Guild, how you get paid etc. I don't know what constitutes a job for Medicaid etc, but I believe the DMsG does not file tax reports until you reach a yearly income of $2000. I do believe their are one or two other folks in a similar (disability) situation but I don't know any specifics on what they do earn or their limits etc.

for me, when I do collect the little I earn from my DMsG products I have it sent to PayPal and then I use PayPal to pay for some of my FG purchases.

[Yehudah]

There is some information here (DMsG FAQ (https://support.dmsguild.com/hc/en-us/categories/202531048-DMs-Guild-General-Information)) about the Guild, how you get paid etc. I don't know what constitutes a job for Medicaid etc, but I believe the DMsG does not file tax reports until you reach a yearly income of $2000. I do believe their are one or two other folks in a similar (disability) situation but I don't know any specifics on what they do earn or their limits etc.

for me, when I do collect the little I earn from my DMsG products I have it sent to PayPal and then I use PayPal to pay for some of my FG purchases.

Thank you so much! I'm going to contact them.

[mattekure]

Thank you so much! I'm going to contact them.

From the DMG FAQ

Will I receive a 1099 tax form for my royalty income?
We do not issue 1099-MISC forms to authors who receive their royalties from us via PayPal payments. The Internal Revenue Service does not require us to include payments made via PayPal on Form 1099-MISC, and as PayPal is currently the only means of withdrawing author royalties, we do not issue 1099-MISC.

Please be aware the Internal Revenue Service does require PayPal to send you a separate, Form 1099-K for PayPal payments when both of these are true: a) payments into your PayPal account total more than $20,000 and b) the total number of payments exceed 200, within a calendar year.

It is therefore likely that many authors will not meet the thresholds for PayPal to send a Form 1099-K. In this case, authors will neither receive a Form 1099-K from PayPal, nor will they receive a Form 1099-MISC from us.

Such taxpayers can then self-report this royalty income with their annual tax-filing by going to their Account page’s My Money section and visiting the “Customer Account Payment History” page. This page will report the total payment amounts made via PayPal during the calendar year. For purposes of reporting this royalty income, the payer is our site’s parent company OneBookShelf, Inc.. The payer information is:

OneBookShelf Inc.

4593 Han**** Way SW

Lilburn, GA 30317

EIN: 20-5670573

For authors who also have publisher accounts with OneBookShelf marketplaces, you may have additional payments from OneBookShelf made by PayPal or check from your publisher account. See the Publisher Knowledge Base tax information section for more information.

[Yehudah]

EDIT: The total number of payments cannot exceed 200 in actual payments? This is a massive pain in the ***. I don't know what is realistic or feasible. I should peruse other avenues.
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I would like to bring this back to the original purpose of the thread.

So has anyone here played Ravenloft Stone Prophet? If so, how much do you think it fudges the rules?

-----
(another edit)
Additionally what are yall's opinion(s) on Bards in AD&D vs 3.x vs 4e vs 5e?
Anyone played a Bard as your main Char in Baldur's Gate 1-2? What's your opinion on their effectiveness / niches?

[mattekure]

EDIT: The total number of payments cannot exceed 200 in actual payments? This is a massive pain in the ***. I don't know what is realistic or feasible. I should peruse other avenues.
----
I would like to bring this back to the original purpose of the thread.

So has anyone here played Ravenloft Stone Prophet? If so, how much do you think it fudges the rules?

-----
(another edit)
Additionally what are yall's opinion(s) on Bards in AD&D vs 3.x vs 4e vs 5e?
Anyone played a Bard as your main Char in Baldur's Gate 1-2? What's your opinion on their effectiveness / niches?

Thats the number of payment transactions, not the amount of money. so if you are receiving money more than 200 times.

[Yehudah]

Thats the number of payment transactions, not the amount of money. so if you are receiving money more than 200 times.

yeah I got that. I have not had a job since I was 17. (and that was mostly a family friend hiring me anyway). this is red tape and I can't take risks. I'm gonna have to work out private arrangements for work with people directly if this is gonna work. Would it be okay to redirect this thread back to my original intent?

[Yehudah]

What are you guys' opinions on Bard(s) in the tabletop versions of D&D in the thread title, but also crpgs, both Beamdog remastered ones and other ones.
It's rather difficult for me to justify using Bard characters in the D&D computer games (and probably tabletop too) considering it's a low number of party members generally. It makes me think almost like Bard's and Thieves should be a unified class. Or at least a Thief subclass which removes a Bard's more limited Arcane abilities but keeps their other skills.

[Bidmaron]

From the DMG FAQ


Please be aware the Internal Revenue Service does require PayPal to send you a separate, Form 1099-K for PayPal payments when both of these are true: a) payments into your PayPal account total more than $20,000 and b) the total number of payments exceed 200, within a calendar year.


I think this has been misunderstood. The way this is written, 200 payments all by itself wouldn't exceed the 1099 tripwire. You would also have to exceed $20K in the same calendar year. Sorry to resurrect this part, but I think this is an important point that would let the OP make a few beer/game bucks.

[Yehudah]

I understand that now. Thank you. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near qualified to produce prepackaged original content. Tha'ts not quite what I had in mind. I had contract writing stories and settings for campaigns in mind for table top campaigns. I am not skilled enough yet to design a complete original D&D campaign and if I become skilled enough it's not anytime soon. I'ts a struggle for what I'm doing now trying to put something together which may end up being played by my group of friends in a year or longer.

[LordEntrails]

What are you guys' opinions on Bard(s) in the tabletop versions of D&D in the thread title, but also crpgs, both Beamdog remastered ones and other ones.
It's rather difficult for me to justify using Bard characters in the D&D computer games (and probably tabletop too) considering it's a low number of party members generally. It makes me think almost like Bard's and Thieves should be a unified class. Or at least a Thief subclass which removes a Bard's more limited Arcane abilities but keeps their other skills.
I've played or had players play bards a few times in previous versions. They never really fit or performed well. Some versions they were just... weak and extremely situational. In general they have never really appealed to me.

In 5E, they are much better. Not sure if they appeal to me, but they have a place in almost any party and are competitive if you worry about that.

As for CRPGs, wouldn't be qualified to comment.

[Kelrugem]

I play a bard in 3.5e (the kobold bard of my profile picture :D ) and they can perform there really well (they have a buff there which grant them +30 bluff...). But as LordEntrails said, a bard might not work well depending on how one skills them. A bard (in 3.5e) is therefore not a class I would suggest for a new player, it takes some knowledge to play them. When one knows how to play them, then they can be really fun to play (e.g. there are builds to make them very strong in melee combat)

EDIT: and in a good group one can have nice combinations of actions. Like using fascinate just to give the rogue an opportunity to backstab the NPC. The bard can also be really useful in many other roleplaying aspects and supportive ways

[Yehudah]

I play a bard in 3.5e (the kobold bard of my profile picture :D ) and they can perform there really well (they have a buff there which grant them +30 bluff...). But as LordEntrails said, a bard might not work well depending on how one skills them. A bard (in 3.5e) is therefore not a class I would suggest for a new player, it takes some knowledge to play them. When one knows how to play them, then they can be really fun to play (e.g. there are builds to make them very strong in melee combat)

EDIT: and in a good group one can have nice combinations of actions. Like using fascinate just to give the rogue an opportunity to backstab the NPC. The bard can also be really useful in many other roleplaying aspects and supportive ways

@Kelrugem
Would you mind talking a bit about builds which make bards good in melee?

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Something else I wanted to discuss was multiclassing in the different editions. I am not a big fan of "dual classing" especially in 3.x (possibly 5e and 4e as well). I REALLY like how it works in Baldur's Gate... multi-classing, that is. It's all about MinMax in NWN using 3.0. I'm not a fan of that kind of tedium for the most part. in Baldur's Gate (ADnD), you are both classes simultaneously. You do not level them up separately. How does it work in 4e and 5e? If it's the same as 3.x, are there any good house rules people have designed to have it like it is in ADnD?
I thought Mage/Swashbuckler (Thief subclass) might be a good combination. Let's say you have a two-man party. I'll be a Cleric/Fighter, my friend Mage/Swashbuckler. I did that in Ravenloft: Stone Prophet (it was Mage/Thief as subclasses aren't an option), and I mostly maxed out both characters stats without rolling. I know this is cheesing it. But those ancient games are extremely difficult and cumbersome to navigate so I felt it was necessary to make my two character party more durable when I need to deal with the extreme clunkiness of such an ancient game.

[Kelrugem]

@Kelrugem
Would you mind talking a bit about builds which make bards good in melee?

okay, let me think; my bard is just some little nice and cute kobold who doesn't fight a lot ;) (I play him as the DM to motivate the group in their roleplay; he is more the mascot of the group :) ) But funnily there is some nice build for such kobold bards, or more general for bards with a draconic background (either kobold, dragonborn, spellscale or anyone else with feats like draconic heritage). The following is just out of my head, not a complete guideline:

1. Take the feat Draconic Inspiration (Races of Dragon), this gives you an additional which works like Inspire Courage (and it improves like that, too) but it gives instead Xd6 fire damage (X is the bonus of inspire courage; so, when you have inspire courage +2 then you have an additional song giving you and your allies 2d6 fire damage). The type of the energy damage can be changed if you have other draconic backgrounds (a sonic one would fit to a bard and there are not really many creatures with any resistances against that). And that ability improves also later when inspire courage improves
2. The feat Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) gives you another song allowing you to add your CHA modifier to attack and damage (additional to strength or dexterity!). This also means that one can concentrate more on Dexterity for defenses while strength is then not so important anymore.
3. Due to the bigger amount of songs then, one should later take also at least once a feat giving four additional uses of Bardic Music per day (extra music feat in Complete Adventurer). Maybe also Lingering Song later such that your songs take 10 rounds to expire instead of 5 after you stop singing/playing etc..
4. There is some feat making your inspire courage better by +1 (and so also the dragonfire mentioned above), Heartsong or something like that.
5. There is a spell, Inspirational boost, which improves your inspire courage again by +1 (and again also your dragonfire inspiration) and the casting time is just a swift action :)

So assume a lvl 9 bard having these and having a CHA = 18 (by having a +2 CHA item for example), then you get the following additional bonusses after your songs (Snowflake + Inspire Courage + Dragonfire (for damage)):
additional attack bonus: 4 + 4 = 8
additional damage bonus: 4 + 4 + (4d6 fire) = 8 + (4d6 fire)

Except of the snowflake effect, your allies get these bonusses, too :) There is also a way to push these bonusses even further (such that inspire courage and dragonfire would be +10 each for a lvl 9 bard, but this involves a relic and an Exalted Feat, so this strongly depends on your DM and the campaign).

When your race is indeed something like a kobold you can push this still. All these effects are per attack and not just once. A kobold gets his claws and his bite as natural attack (and was there not a feat that allows a kobold to use his tail, too? or also wings (yeah, there are some Dragonwrought kobolds with wings; but, again, this depends on your DM if he allows you such a kobold)). So, when one claw wears a longsword you can use the other claw and the bite as additional secondary natural attacks (just once -5 on their attack). Thus, the lvl 9 bard would have in total 4 attacks (2 of the longsword, one claw and one bite) which all trigger the effects mentioned above. A standard lvl 9 bard would have only 2 attacks by the longsword. Then casting haste, one additional attack... You see the principle behind that :) Of course one should care about his defence, too. But there are of course inspire greatness, magic items and so on; I now only just focused on the offense to motivate the build a bit :) (as I said, not a complete guideline now)

There are also some other melee builds, also especiall some with Elven background like the Bladesinger in Races of Faerûn. But it is too long ago when I read them in my books.

[Yehudah]

@Kelrugem
That's pretty helpful.
I also read the Player's Handbook chapter on Bards today. On that data alone, Bards are very powerful. They can even increase their ability scores.
Also, it barely occurs to me to make characters of unusual racial backgrounds. I did find the crusader army in Baldur's Gate Siege of Dragonspear having Gnolls, Ogres, Trolls, and other monsters to be rather strange. I don't know if anyone has comments on that.