Line of sight in FGU should come with a new token visibility system

[scarymike23]

With line of sight being implemented, I'd really like a way to not have to add encounters to the Combat Tracker before I can make the tokens visible. I'd much prefer token visibility was related to "line of sight" or "masking" only.

If my PCs are walking around a corner, I'd like them to suddenly realize "OH SHOOT, ITS A MONSTER!" instead of me having to go, "oh, they turned right, I need to stop them, add the encounter to the CT and then reveal the tokens, and say GUESS WHAT, A MONSTER!"

Thoughts?

[LordEntrails]

So how would the tokens get added to the map? Using pre-placed encounters it is a single click.

Also, be aware that tokens themselves have no data in FG. NPCs objects have the data, including images assigned to them as a token. Next, the automation and such associated with PC's and NPCs require that they get added to the map from the combat tracker.

I think you'll find if you use pre-placed encounters, it is 2 clicks to add and reveal monsters on a map. one to add to the CT and the map, then one to reveal them. You can actually add monsters before they even get to the corner (i.e. add the ones to both the right and the left) and then just reveal the ones you need when they turn the corner (open the door).

[Trenloe]

With line of sight being implemented, I'd really like a way to not have to add encounters to the Combat Tracker before I can make the tokens visible. I'd much prefer token visibility was related to "line of sight" or "masking" only.

If my PCs are walking around a corner, I'd like them to suddenly realize "OH SHOOT, ITS A MONSTER!" instead of me having to go, "oh, they turned right, I need to stop them, add the encounter to the CT and then reveal the tokens, and say GUESS WHAT, A MONSTER!"

Thoughts?
It's a nice idea. I don't think it will be easy/straightforward to include simplified pre-placement, but it could be done. Some of this is available in the Enhanced Combat extension for D&D 5E, I've never tried it in anger myself, but you can check it out here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?47146-5e-Combat-Enhancer-(built-on-retired-GPL-Advanced-Kombat-extension)

[Kelrugem]

Hm, another idea would be something like a second CT for passive NPCs where you can produce all the temporary NPC data as usual but such that these NPCs are not in the "main CT"; then the main CT remains clearly represented since there are only the NPCs involved in the fight while the other NPCs are on the map but not clustering the main CT (and their data would still be quickly available in the passive CT when one needs it for some reason). Then maybe with some Drag&Drop ability, i.e. one can drag&drop NPCs from the passive CT into the main CT when the other NPCs are somehow now involved in a fight (due to an alert, players were moving and so on) :) But I do not have any clue about how much work this would mean, so I can understand when one wants to avoid that :)

[Callum]

I think you'll find if you use pre-placed encounters, it is 2 clicks to add and reveal monsters on a map. one to add to the CT and the map, then one to reveal them.

This could be reduced to one click if the monster tokens were added to the map with mask-sensitive visibility, rather than non-visibility (which is the current default).

[LordEntrails]

Yes, a one click reduction for some use cases. But it would cause problems for other use cases.

For instance, Wednesday my party was proceeding across a mud and magma plain. I pre-placed the mud mephits but kept them invisible because they had not yet popped up from the mud. And I could then effectively move them about under the mud while the players explored above. Had it been mask sensitivity when I initially placed them, they would have seen the tokens for the time it would have taken me to hide them.

ITs a design trad-off, but I think the right one since it is easy to overcome when its not the ideal choice, and doesn't work to negatively impact other use cases.

[Callum]

You're right, it's a trade-off. The problem is that it's currently not one click to give all tokens mask-sensitive visibility - it has to be done token-by-token. Perhaps the best solution would be to add that as an option to the Combat Tracker.

[LordEntrails]

You're right, it's a trade-off. The problem is that it's currently not one click to give all tokens mask-sensitive visibility - it has to be done token-by-token. Perhaps the best solution would be to add that as an option to the Combat Tracker.
Click the "eye" icon on the top left of the CT, that will effect all NPCs on the CT, one-click :)

[Callum]

Click the "eye" icon on the top left of the CT, that will effect all NPCs on the CT, one-click :)

That only toggles between "visible" and "not visible", though - there's no option for "mask-sensitive visibility", which is the one that I use most.

[scarymike23]

That only toggles between "visible" and "not visible", though - there's no option for "mask-sensitive visibility", which is the one that I use most.

Exactly. And thus the overall problem. What is unknown at this time is if "Line of Sight" will replace mask. If everything needs to be individually marked "Mask-Sensitive" that will slow down gameplay even more than it does now.

[RunningHill]

Not sure if it's that you want but the video on kickstarter shows how an enemy appear in view from hidden to visible as it enters LOS. But they don't show how it appears in the combat tracker... If it's always visible on the combat tracker takes away a lot from the function as the players would be searching for the monsters they know are there.

[darrenan]

Seems like the encounter should allow you to specify invisible or mask-sensitive visibility, and have that carry over into the CT when the encounter is populated.

[darrenan]

Hm, another idea would be something like a second CT for passive NPCs where you can produce all the temporary NPC data as usual but such that these NPCs are not in the "main CT"; then the main CT remains clearly represented since there are only the NPCs involved in the fight while the other NPCs are on the map but not clustering the main CT (and their data would still be quickly available in the passive CT when one needs it for some reason). Then maybe with some Drag&Drop ability, i.e. one can drag&drop NPCs from the passive CT into the main CT when the other NPCs are somehow now involved in a fight (due to an alert, players were moving and so on) :) But I do not have any clue about how much work this would mean, so I can understand when one wants to avoid that :)

Yeah, I've often thought about creating a 'bullpen' section of the CT for NPCs that you want readily available, but that aren't part of the current combat/initiative order. This is useful for things like party horses, which are part of some encounters but not others, and repopulating them on demand is onerous. There would be radial menu options for moving active creatures to the bullpen, and vice versa.

[LordEntrails]

That only toggles between "visible" and "not visible", though - there's no option for "mask-sensitive visibility", which is the one that I use most.

I'm on my phone so cant check, but...

I thought that if you toggle to visible on the CT and the token is under the mask that the token stays invisible. And if the NPC shows up on the CT is dependent upon a GM option.

Is my memory failing me in my old age?

[Callum]

I thought that if you toggle to visible on the CT and the token is under the mask that the token stays invisible. And if the NPC shows up on the CT is dependent upon a GM option.

You're quite correct, LordEntrails - the Combat Tracker visibility toggle does indeed set the tokens to mask-sensitive visibility! I swear it didn't used to do that, as I've been trying to get this to work for years, but maybe my ancient memory is failing me! However, this approach does reveal all the NPCs on the CT, which doesn't help with keeping them hidden from the players, and I can't seem to find the GM option that you refer to which would stop this from happening.

[Zacchaeus]

You're quite correct, LordEntrails - the Combat Tracker visibility toggle does indeed set the tokens to mask-sensitive visibility! I swear it didn't used to do that, as I've been trying to get this to work for years, but maybe my ancient memory is failing me! However, this approach does reveal all the NPCs on the CT, which doesn't help with keeping them hidden from the players, and I can't seem to find the GM option that you refer to which would stop this from happening.

There isn't such an option - I think what LE might be referring to is the Skip Hidden Actors option which skips anything on the CT that's invisible on the CT. So in your case you would make the bad guys visible by toggling each one's visibility on the CT but leave the horses invisible on the CT. That way the players don't see the invisible tokens on the CT or on the map. If you mark something invisible on the CT it doesn't matter where they are on the map (or even if they are on the map at all) no-one will see them.

[LordEntrails]

No! I couldn't be wrong... again... err, well, yea. What did you say honey? I can't hear you... the water's running? Err, no the horse is running? But we don't have a horse!