AD&D 2E Ruleset Feedback/Information Thread

[celestian]

Found some typos in the extended spell progression tables in Faiths & Avatars.

Extendend Priest Spell Progression
Level 33 should be 10 10 10 10 9 9 9

Extended Wizard Spell Progression
Level 12 should be 4 4 4 4 4 1
Level 25 should be 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
Level 28 should be 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
Level 33 should be 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7

Extended Bard Spell Progression
Level 3 should be 2
Level 5 should be 3 1
Level 7 should be 3 2 1

Wouldn't have even noticed these if it hadn't been for the level 28 wizard spells (6 6 7 7 7 6 6 6 6).

You might want to find the Faiths and Avatars thread and post that there or start one named such. I am not the author of the product and it's not a ruleset specific issue. You can also send it to the FG support email.

[gbhenderson]

Thanks Celestian. Sorry to be a pita all the time!

[truthman]

The 2e (well 1e) game we are playing does not use size adjustments for NPC initiative. There is a feature to turn this off which is great but it seems to only apply when NPC inits are rolled using the combat tracker menu. When I first drag an NPC from the list to the CT, it seems to apply the size adjustment regardless of the option setting. Minor issue and an easy workaround to turn off auto init but just FYI.

I do want to say thanks for putting this ruleset together, though. It has been great being able to play our old campaign online after a couple of decades hiatus due to life and geography.

[Doggiemudflap]

I haven't found any real issues and I'm really enjoying the system Thank you. Im not positive you are the original creator for Classis AD&D for FFGU but if you are, Thank you!

[esmdev]

I haven't found any real issues and I'm really enjoying the system Thank you. Im not positive you are the original creator for Classis AD&D for FFGU but if you are, Thank you!

Celestian is the ruleset developer for D&D Classic since long before there was an official license to present. He has done an awesome job. :)

[agantcheff]

I noticed that allot of the rule books for 2 ed are missing such as Skill and powers and others
I can get a full list if needed.

What are the chances that they will be added?

[damned]

Welcome agantcheff

These books can take a hundred hours or more to convert. They are converted by community developers and generally they convert products that interest them, that they have time to do and that the Wizards allow FG to convert.

[readymeal]

I noticed that allot of the rule books for 2 ed are missing such as Skill and powers and others
I can get a full list if needed.

What are the chances that they will be added?

Hi agantcheff

Thank you for your interest, on top of what dammed stated, there s also a rule set compatibility. Some rules in Skills and powers might if not impossible to add into the current 2E ruleset. Implementing them would require some major changes.
Sterno has created an extension adding additional 2E features, have you had a look at it?

[agantcheff]

No can you give ne the link??

[Moon Wizard]

Please do not share nor request access to copyrighted material not available through official channels, and approved by the publisher.

Regards,
JPG

[esmdev]

Please do not share nor request access to copyrighted material not available through official channels, and approved by the publisher.

Regards,
JPG

Considering the extension mentioned and requested has been available on the FG forum for almost a year, it seems like an over reaction.

[damned]

Methinks it was a misreading.

[Sterno]

My extension implements some of the systems from Combats & Tactics, such as their method for determining critical hits, locations and severity, as well as their phased initiative system. It doesn't reproduce the actual "rulebook text" like you see when you buy an officially licensed Fantasy Grounds product.

I did create a module for my own use that has the actual critical hit tables entered as Fantasy Grounds-style tables, along with stories of explanation text copy & pasted from the rulebook for what all the different crit effects are, but did not distribute it because of it's copyrighted nature.

[readymeal]

Methinks it was a misreading.

you must be right as sterno's extension is no more than an artistic representation of some game mechanics (which can not be copyrighted as far as i know) in FG and does not contain any original text or pictures.

[jharp]

Likely this is my inexperience with FGU but I can't find a way to hide the details of a potion from the players. If it is set to unidentified it will show the unidentified name in the player sheet (I meant party sheet) but if the player clicks the items in the [party] sheet they will see in the powers tab the details of the power. Obviously most potions (other things as well I'm sure) give a lot of info away in the powers tab.

Am I doing something wrong or is that a bug?

Jason

[celestian]

I see nothing as a client when a potion is not identified. Once it is tho, everything shows.

https://i.imgur.com/GeKt2iI.gif

[jharp]

I should have been clearer. The item is in the party sheet awaiting distribution. So if you click the link for the item in the party sheet (not the character inventory) then the power tab has details that should be hidden.
If I test from the inventory it works as expected.

[sasaki]

OK, I've done a bit of searching and haven't found an answer to these two questions. First I'm running FGU 4.1.5 Ultimate with no extensions, and I've got PHB, DMG, and MM loaded.

1. I've enabled the dice tower in options but it is not visible on my (DM) screen, although it is visible on my players screen. Where's mine?

2. When making a thief, the thief skills are not updated with race or dex modifiers. Is this a bug, decision, or something that was not possible to code? Am I building the character sheet in the wrong order? I've tried a couple of different orders, and the skills never update.

Thanks!

[celestian]

OK, I've done a bit of searching and haven't found an answer to these two questions. First I'm running FGU 4.1.5 Ultimate with no extensions, and I've got PHB, DMG, and MM loaded.

1. I've enabled the dice tower in options but it is not visible on my (DM) screen, although it is visible on my players screen. Where's mine?

2. When making a thief, the thief skills are not updated with race or dex modifiers. Is this a bug, decision, or something that was not possible to code? Am I building the character sheet in the wrong order? I've tried a couple of different orders, and the skills never update.

Thanks!

The only time the DM sees the dice tower is if his rolls are not hidden (campaign settings/option). This is a thing throughout FG systems.

Dex/racial/armor adjustments are not automatically applied for thief skills.

[sasaki]

Hi Celestian. Thanks for the info on the dice tower. I was just being obtuse....

OK, here's another one for you. The 2nd level mage spell Strength. It doesn't interact properly with exceptional strength, and it doesn't look like it has a limit of 18/00. So if I put the effect on a fighter with 16 strength and the roll is 8, he will end up with a 24. 18/xx is treated as 18 then the roll of the spell effect gets added to that.

So it looks like the solution for a fighter with 18/xx str is to modify the stat blocks manually and add the spell dice roll to the second row of str mods. Was this impossible to code to work with exceptional str?

[celestian]

Hi Celestian. Thanks for the info on the dice tower. I was just being obtuse....

OK, here's another one for you. The 2nd level mage spell Strength. It doesn't interact properly with exceptional strength, and it doesn't look like it has a limit of 18/00. So if I put the effect on a fighter with 16 strength and the roll is 8, he will end up with a 24. 18/xx is treated as 18 then the roll of the spell effect gets added to that.

So it looks like the solution for a fighter with 18/xx str is to modify the stat blocks manually and add the spell dice roll to the second row of str mods. Was this impossible to code to work with exceptional str?

There is no automated way setup to "cap" the strength or deal with percentile.

[truthman]

Are there any extensions or other means to set up a sneak attack multiplier for damage for thieves in 2e? Our current workaround is to just roll 5d + the bonuses but this trends to average damage.

[damned]

Are there any extensions or other means to set up a sneak attack multiplier for damage for thieves in 2e? Our current workaround is to just roll 5d + the bonuses but this trends to average damage.

What is the mechanic?
If its double damage then drag the damage a second time?

[truthman]

It goes up with levels. He is about to level to 13th where it is 5x damage.

[JohnD]

Are there any extensions or other means to set up a sneak attack multiplier for damage for thieves in 2e? Our current workaround is to just roll 5d + the bonuses but this trends to average damage.

If you mean backstab, it should be built right in to the ability on the Actions - Powers tab.

Here's a quick 13th level Thief I just whipped up. The effect provides 5x damage.

49083

[celestian]

Are there any extensions or other means to set up a sneak attack multiplier for damage for thieves in 2e? Our current workaround is to just roll 5d + the bonuses but this trends to average damage.

If you're using the PHB thief class it has backstab actions/powers built in.

[EOTB]

If you are looking for an automated mechanic that multiplies the weapon damage by "X", but excludes any STR and magic bonus from that multiplication, and delivers a total of, say, (1d8*5)+1(STR)+2(magic) - I don't believe that formula is automated.

I think the formula that's automated is (for example) (1d8+1+2)*5.

[celestian]

If you are looking for an automated mechanic that multiplies the weapon damage by "X", but excludes any STR and magic bonus from that multiplication, and delivers a total of, say, (1d8*5)+1(STR)+2(magic) - I don't believe that formula is automated.

I think the formula that's automated is (for example) (1d8+1+2)*5.

You are correct, it's not 100% by the 2E rules. To do that you have to do it manually because of the way data is stored for weapons you do not know if a bonus is from magic or just the weapons default damage. I considered it a viable solution since, in my experience, almost no one used those restrictions on the multiplier... probably because thieves have always had performance issues to begin with.

[EOTB]

Yeah, it's the same in 1e. It's not hard to work around - handle backstab damage manually. Roll the same damage you would for a normal attack and add the "extra". So if someone had a 3x multiplier and rolled a 5 on the weapon damage dice, add 10.

[truthman]

Nice. Okay. I will check that out. Thanks.

[sasaki]

I believe I found a bug in the combat tracker. When right clicking the 'next round' button to advance more than a single round (+5, +10, etc), effects that have a round-based duration are only decremented by a single round no matter which multiple you pick. The round counter increases by the correct number, though.

[celestian]

I believe I found a bug in the combat tracker. When right clicking the 'next round' button to advance more than a single round (+5, +10, etc), effects that have a round-based duration are only decremented by a single round no matter which multiple you pick. The round counter increases by the correct number, though.

You are correct. The last time I set about to have a time management system I ran into an issue where if you incremented time beyond 1 round it would spam chat with various turns/initiative markers. At the time I was not prepared to resolve those so left the system as it was by default. I do plan to revisit and have a better time management system. One that would allow you to increment time in a large block and it update effect timers properly.

[sasaki]

Gotcha. Yeah, it would be convenient to have that functionality, but sounds like it's not worth the trouble.

[jeffencourt]

I'm having trouble getting the turn undead button on the PCs action tab to work when targeting undead creatures. I have a 3rd level cleric that was trying to turn some simple skeletons and the button is not working. It was working a couple weeks ago when we played last, but on sunday it had stopped working for some reason, and i still can not get it to automate the turn undead feature. Anyone have any ideas on this? thanks!

[celestian]

I'm having trouble getting the turn undead button on the PCs action tab to work when targeting undead creatures. I have a 3rd level cleric that was trying to turn some simple skeletons and the button is not working. It was working a couple weeks ago when we played last, but on sunday it had stopped working for some reason, and i still can not get it to automate the turn undead feature. Anyone have any ideas on this? thanks!

They recently changed how buttons work in the FG API and it caused Turn undead, init and delay buttons to break (they changed double clicking). The update Tuesday should correct it (it's now single click due to changes).

In the meantime you can use the turn undead rollable tables (in DMG and the PHB table records) to determine what happens.

[sasaki]

Hi Celestian. Not sure if this is by design or not, so I'll ask about it. When rolling a saving throw using the entries on the Stats tab in Combat Tracker, no modifiers are applied. When rolling the same saving throw from the Main tab on a character sheet, modifiers ARE applied. I would find it convenient to be able to roll a save from the CT and not have to open the character sheet to have the modifiers applied. So is this behavior intentional, or just a detail that got missed? Thanks!

[celestian]

Hi Celestian. Not sure if this is by design or not, so I'll ask about it. When rolling a saving throw using the entries on the Stats tab in Combat Tracker, no modifiers are applied. When rolling the same saving throw from the Main tab on a character sheet, modifiers ARE applied. I would find it convenient to be able to roll a save from the CT and not have to open the character sheet to have the modifiers applied. So is this behavior intentional, or just a detail that got missed? Thanks!

Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look. That definitely sounds like a bug to me ;)

[celestian]

Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look. That definitely sounds like a bug to me ;)

I found the problem and have corrected but the update will be delayed until the big Core update is out. I suspect around end of November.

Thanks!

[Oladahn]

Hi, why is it that if a character or creature rolls a save versus a characteristic, say wisdom, the chat box reports a fail or success. But when you roll versus a saving throw, say spell, it just displays the roll you made?
Obviously it's easy enough to say that the character or creature failed or succeeded but, to me at least, why don't both report succeed or fail?

[celestian]

Hi, why is it that if a character or creature rolls a save versus a characteristic, say wisdom, the chat box reports a fail or success. But when you roll versus a saving throw, say spell, it just displays the roll you made?
Obviously it's easy enough to say that the character or creature failed or succeeded but, to me at least, why don't both report succeed or fail?

Not sure what you mean. It already shows if you succeed or fail.

https://i.imgur.com/KJoMNHo.png

Text color is changed as well.

https://i.imgur.com/D4MeIng.png

[bayne7400]

Mike I am planning on adding a separate turn tracker. Something that can be used for hex crawls to track date and time. I was going to stick it up in the shortcut bar.

What do you think about something like that?

This is a comment to a post you made previously.

[Sterno]

Not sure what you mean. It already shows if you succeed or fail.

https://i.imgur.com/KJoMNHo.png

Text color is changed as well.

https://i.imgur.com/D4MeIng.png

He might be talking about when you do it via the Combat Tracker's "Stats" tab.

https://i.imgur.com/n2esWgF.gif

[celestian]

He might be talking about when you do it via the Combat Tracker's "Stats" tab.



I ran my test from the CT. I suspect there is probably an extension causing the problem.

[Sterno]

I think the only extension I had loaded there was Author, but I'll double-check later today. Could be option-related?

Edit: Just downloaded Fantasy Grounds to my work laptop, created a brand new 2E campaign (no extensions), loaded the Monstrous Manual, dragged an Aboleth to the combat tracker, switch to its Stats tab, and rolled a Poison save for it. Same issue as in my gif. Happens whether or not the "Show GM Rolls" option is on. Attribute checks show success/failure, but the saving throws don't.

[celestian]

Brand new campaign.

I am on Test so maybe it's something I fixed a while back and forgot. I don't recall touching it tho, it could be some changes related to retrieving actor data thats different in Test.

I did verify that using pre-Test code it's not displaying. So just wait for the Core update, whenever they release it.

https://i.imgur.com/MeCZs5H.gif

[Oladahn]

Not sure what you mean. It already shows if you succeed or fail.

https://i.imgur.com/KJoMNHo.png

Text color is changed as well.

https://i.imgur.com/D4MeIng.png


Hi, I must be doing something dumb. This is what I get.

50257

[Oladahn]

All sorted now.

Many thanks for the hard work you peeps do behind the scenes.

[TheButterdragon]

I'm having an issue where a Mage/Cleric is unable to memorise all their Cleric spells. They have Cure and Bless memorised and 3 slots to use but when I try to add Cause Light Wounds it tells me they have no spell slots left. It worked last time I used it.

I am also getting ActorManager.getActor - DEPRECATED - 2022 - 01 - 01 Contact forge/extension author on opening character sheets. The only extension I think I'm using outside of official ones is the combat and tactics initiative one.

[celestian]

I'm having an issue where a Mage/Cleric is unable to memorise all their Cleric spells. They have Cure and Bless memorised and 3 slots to use but when I try to add Cause Light Wounds it tells me they have no spell slots left. It worked last time I used it.

I am also getting ActorManager.getActor - DEPRECATED - 2022 - 01 - 01 Contact forge/extension author on opening character sheets. The only extension I think I'm using outside of official ones is the combat and tactics initiative one.

Remove all extensions and try again.

[TheButterdragon]

I disabled the extension (which removed the deprecated issue) but the memorization issue remains. She is only allowed 2 Cleric Spells no matter what even though she has 3 1st level slots.

[celestian]

I disabled the extension (which removed the deprecated issue) but the memorization issue remains. She is only allowed 2 Cleric Spells no matter what even though she has 3 1st level slots.

I can't explain how it happened because of extensions/etc but I would remove all memorized spells and start over. I suspect something caused the memorization tracking to get offset.

[TheButterdragon]

I'll try rebuilding her character, thankfully she was only level 1 so its not a major deal. Is there a way to quickly port over all Cleric 1 spells or do I have to do them all manually?

[celestian]

I'll try rebuilding her character, thankfully she was only level 1 so its not a major deal. Is there a way to quickly port over all Cleric 1 spells or do I have to do them all manually?

You should have been able to remove all her current memorized settings and reset, unmemorize.

As to clerics, no, you have to drag/drop them. And with how FGU doesn't deal with large amounts of data well, I wouldn't recommend dumping every single cleric spell in there either. Only those that will be used.

[TrentLane]

Small bug I noticed today. When the menus are set to Sidebar and an image is maximized; the image covers up all of the Sidebar.

[celestian]

Small bug I noticed today. When the menus are set to Sidebar and an image is maximized; the image covers up all of the Sidebar.

Known issue when using Sidebar. No solution as FGU does not support updating panels. You will not experience the issue when using menus.

[TrentLane]

Known issue when using Sidebar. No solution as FGU does not support updating panels. You will not experience the issue when using menus.

Thanks for the answer, still a bit disappointing. I'll have to use the hotbar then for needed links since I really dislike the menu option

[Psloni]

Hello Celestian.

I am getting ready to drag my group kicking and screaming back to 2E. I have bought all the books and supplements, and am going through the ruleset in FGU. I was reading the thread earlier to learn how to "level" a spell power as the caster levels and noticed that by changing the "CL" from - to CL/2 (Magic missile) that it does not add damage for the second missile until 4th level. It should be third. Is there a way to get the math to MAX(cl/2) or roundup(cl/2)?

[celestian]

Hello Celestian.

I am getting ready to drag my group kicking and screaming back to 2E. I have bought all the books and supplements, and am going through the ruleset in FGU. I was reading the thread earlier to learn how to "level" a spell power as the caster levels and noticed that by changing the "CL" from - to CL/2 (Magic missile) that it does not add damage for the second missile until 4th level. It should be third. Is there a way to get the math to MAX(cl/2) or roundup(cl/2)?

That's why the PHB version doesn't automatically calculate MM damage. Well, another reason. First reason is the missiles can be fired at multiple targets if you have more than 1, 2) The level adjustments for damage do not have a option to "2 extra levels" but it can do level/X.

[Tenebris]

I am experiencing a bug related to modifying the caster level of arcane casters. When using the Effect [ARCANE: N] I receive the error below.

"[ERROR] Handler error: [string "scripts/manager_effect.lua"]:619: setValue: Invalid parameter 1"

Interestingly enough, [DIVINE: N] does not produce this error, and seems to function just fine.

EDIT: (Checked a game without extensions):

"[ERROR] Handler error: [string "scripts/manager_effect_adnd.lua"]:1190: attempt to index local 'nodeTargetEffect' (auserdatavalue)"

[celestian]

I am experiencing a bug related to modifying the caster level of arcane casters. When using the Effect [ARCANE: N] I receive the error below.

"[ERROR] Handler error: [string "scripts/manager_effect.lua"]:619: setValue: Invalid parameter 1"

Interestingly enough, [DIVINE: N] does not produce this error, and seems to function just fine.

EDIT: (Checked a game without extensions):

"[ERROR] Handler error: [string "scripts/manager_effect_adnd.lua"]:1190: attempt to index local 'nodeTargetEffect' (auserdatavalue)"

When you say DIVINE: N you do mean you are replacing N with a number?

Testing locally I am able to create effects for DIVINE: 1 and ARCANE: 1 and apply them to pc/npcs w/o issue.

Also, you aren't putting those in brackets are you? Brackets are used for dynamically rolling dice. Do if you did something like ARCANE: [1d6] it would roll 1d6 when the effect was applied.

[Tenebris]

When you say DIVINE: N you do mean you are replacing N with a number?

Testing locally I am able to create effects for DIVINE: 1 and ARCANE: 1 and apply them to pc/npcs w/o issue.

Also, you aren't putting those in brackets are you? Brackets are used for dynamically rolling dice. Do if you did something like ARCANE: [1d6] it would roll 1d6 when the effect was applied.

Yes, N = Number.

No, I do not use the brackets when creating the effect. These are typed in exactly as you wrote out: ARCANE: 1

[celestian]

Yes, N = Number.

No, I do not use the brackets when creating the effect. These are typed in exactly as you wrote out: ARCANE: 1

Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the error but if you can and give me the step by step process that will help me find the cause. This might seem obvious but if you haven't already turn off any extensions if you have them.

[Tenebris]

Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the error but if you can and give me the step by step process that will help me find the cause. This might seem obvious but if you haven't already turn off any extensions if you have them.

After troubleshooting through my existing campaigns and extensions, I have determined that your Unofficial 1e Extensions seems to be the cause of the error. If I activate that extension, I get the error every time. Moreover, if the extension has been active at any point for a campaign, even once I disable the extension, I continue to get the error. I deactivated this particular extension on the campaigns I was having the error with more than a year ago, but whatever issue it is causing has persisted.

For my part, it isn't a necessary extension, but since you are also the author on that (unless I am mistaken), I figured you would be interested in looking at how it played with your ruleset.

[celestian]

After troubleshooting through my existing campaigns and extensions, I have determined that your Unofficial 1e Extensions seems to be the cause of the error. If I activate that extension, I get the error every time. Moreover, if the extension has been active at any point for a campaign, even once I disable the extension, I continue to get the error. I deactivated this particular extension on the campaigns I was having the error with more than a year ago, but whatever issue it is causing has persisted.

For my part, it isn't a necessary extension, but since you are also the author on that (unless I am mistaken), I figured you would be interested in looking at how it played with your ruleset.

Just tested on a clean campaign with 1e extension enabled. Created 2 effects on a power (ARCANE:1, DIVINE:1) and then applied both to the character and I did not get an error.

You are running most current FGU and 2E ruleset? (no new updates listed?)

[Tenebris]

Just tested on a clean campaign with 1e extension enabled. Created 2 effects on a power (ARCANE:1, DIVINE:1) and then applied both to the character and I did not get an error.

You are running most current FGU and 2E ruleset? (no new updates listed?)

My previous testing was with a clean campaign with the 1e extension enabled, resulting in the error. Revisiting the same scenario has failed to reproduce the error again. I do appreciate your time, but this is obviously user/scenario specific error, and I don't want to soak up anymore of it (I am sure it is much better spent). I forced updates and enabled every extension I have installed on a clean campaign and was unable to reproduce the error again, except for in existing campaigns. I assume there is some kind of corruption in the campaigns themselves, but that is the best I can tell at this point. If I do determine anything more concrete, I will provide further details in the future.

Thank you again for your time, I really do appreciate it.

[Gunrsm8]

I have an odd thing happening. Whenever a crit happens instead of doing more damage the damage roll subtracts from the total. This is happening for both monsters and PCs. 52669 52670 If there is anyone that can help me it would be great.

[celestian]

I have an odd thing happening. Whenever a crit happens instead of doing more damage the damage roll subtracts from the total. This is happening for both monsters and PCs. 52669 52670 If there is anyone that can help me it would be great.

This was something I found while making fixes for the update coming on Tuesday. After the update it should be working for you. This was broken when FGU came out (dice data values are more strict than they used to be) but didnt get reported until a few weeks ago.

[Gunrsm8]

Thank you for letting us know and keep up the good work.

[paladinpreacher]

Celestian, do you know of any creator at Fantasy Grounds, or the fan community who would be interested in making some D&D Classic (as FG characterizes it) character creation videos? I have reached out to Founder Laerun at the Fantasy Grounds Academy, but I wanted to also reach out to you & see what content creators are running or knowledgeable about the D&D Classic ruleset. It seems to me that there is an incredible opportunity to not only explore the roots of D&D by showcasing the older ruleset, but also teaching new players who might want to one day run that particular ruleset. Also, it seems like FG is putting a TON of emphasis on producing & having creators code these classic products (like yourself), so I would assume that FG would want to build that fan base (and sales) by making the ruleset more understandable. Thanks for considering this & any information you can pass on will not be in vain.

[celestian]

Celestian, do you know of any creator at Fantasy Grounds, or the fan community who would be interested in making some D&D Classic (as FG characterizes it) character creation videos?

In tips thread (asked them to move the feedback you'd given to a more appropriate thread) there is a video (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?49036-AD-amp-D-2E-Ruleset-Tips) I made walking through creating characters. The document site should also have a text walk through of how best to make one and more details on the various options in the character sheets.

[Nephron]

It appears that rolling hit points on level up may not be working in line with my reading of the AD&D 2E rulebook for constitution scores of >= 20.

Table 3 in the Revised version of the AD&D 2E rulebook has asterix that indicate that there are various minimum value functions that need to be applied to the roll. (e.g. When rolling hit points for a constitution 20 character the minimum value on the dice roll is 2, thus all 1s count as 2s).

I observed the behavior twice. Once I didn't record the details. The second time I observed a level 7 fighter with 90 hit points and 25 constitution gain 8 hit points on level up to level 8 to a total of 98. Appearing to be hit die + fighter constitution bonus of: 1 + 7.

Per my reading of the second edition rules the it should have been minValue4(d10) + 7 for 101 hit points on a d10 roll of 1.

Not sure if that was intended or not.

It also looks like there isn't a mimimum value function on the hit point gain per level at 1 per the AD&D 2E rules in the paragraph text for hit point adjustment in the Strength section (page 21 in the revised AD&D 2E PHB).

I observed a level 1 mage with 1 hit point and 1 constitution level up to level 2 and go from 1 hit point to zero hit points (AD&D 2E may be lethal, but I'm fairly sure it isn't supposed to be THAT lethal.). It appears that the behavior of currentMaxHitPoints + hitPointsFromLevelUp = newMaxHitPoints is missing a minimum value function to prevent hitPointsFromLevelUp being <= 0. The behavior should look like: currentMaxHitPoints + minValue1(hitPointsFromLevelUp) = newMaxHitPoints.

Edit: said floor when I didn't mean floor, I mean minimum value.

[celestian]

It appears that rolling hit points on level up may not be working in line with my reading of the AD&D 2E rulebook for constitution scores of >= 20.

Table 3 in the Revised version of the AD&D 2E rulebook has asterix that indicate that there are various minimum value functions that need to be applied to the roll. (e.g. When rolling hit points for a constitution 20 character the minimum value on the dice roll is 2, thus all 1s count as 2s).

I observed the behavior twice. Once I didn't record the details. The second time I observed a level 7 fighter with 90 hit points and 25 constitution gain 8 hit points on level up to level 8 to a total of 98. Appearing to be hit die + fighter constitution bonus of: 1 + 7.

Per my reading of the second edition rules the it should have been minValue4(d10) + 7 for 101 hit points on a d10 roll of 1.

Not sure if that was intended or not.

It also looks like there isn't a mimimum value function on the hit point gain per level at 1 per the AD&D 2E rules in the paragraph text for hit point adjustment in the Strength section (page 21 in the revised AD&D 2E PHB).

I observed a level 1 mage with 1 hit point and 1 constitution level up to level 2 and go from 1 hit point to zero hit points (AD&D 2E may be lethal, but I'm fairly sure it isn't supposed to be THAT lethal.). It appears that the behavior of currentMaxHitPoints + hitPointsFromLevelUp = newMaxHitPoints is missing a minimum value function to prevent hitPointsFromLevelUp being <= 0. The behavior should look like: currentMaxHitPoints + minValue1(hitPointsFromLevelUp) = newMaxHitPoints.

Edit: said floor when I didn't mean floor, I mean minimum value.

Lowest con you can have at level 1 is 2 (elf with 3 con). Minimum hp at level 1 for elf wizard would be 2 using automated rolls (max hp at level 1, -2 for con). You can manually adjust the hp roll for level 1 to whatever (if you force rolled value at level 1). After level 1 the rolls will be taken and the con negative applied at that moment. If con changes so will hp.

You are correct, the rolls for extreme con bonuses are not automated. Automation has a cost in complexity and because of that I picked what the majority of situations would be. Outside of that things will need to be manually adjusted per your own rules or using greater than typical con dice rolls manually.

[amanwing]

What would be the correct or easy way to give players individual XP? I click on the gear on the character sheet under main and change the total xp there. Is there a better way to do it?
Another question would be if there is some kind of automatic armor skill modifier for a thief or if you need to fill in the modifiers from hand?

[celestian]

What would be the correct or easy way to give players individual XP? I click on the gear on the character sheet under main and change the total xp there. Is there a better way to do it?
Another question would be if there is some kind of automatic armor skill modifier for a thief or if you need to fill in the modifiers from hand?

You can drag/drop a number value onto the specific character in the Party Sheet on the XP tab and it will add that to them.

https://i.imgur.com/ss9lyS0.gif

There is no automation for non-leather armor and thief skill modifiers. You'll have to apply them manually to the armor directly or the player. You can do that with effects and skill modifiers.

[amanwing]

This is great! Thank you again!

[lbkoerich]

Great work. I love the AD&D ruleset.

One of my players decided to go Dual-Class and we are trying to figure out how to handle XP. Is there anyway to distribute the XP exclusively to the new class? I mean, automaticaly by using the apply button? Or the only way is hanling it manually?

Thanks

[celestian]

Great work. I love the AD&D ruleset.

One of my players decided to go Dual-Class and we are trying to figure out how to handle XP. Is there anyway to distribute the XP exclusively to the new class? I mean, automaticaly by using the apply button? Or the only way is hanling it manually?

Thanks

Use the active class toggle. That will turn on/off xp division for multiple classes.

[lbkoerich]

Use the active class toggle. That will turn on/off xp division for multiple classes.

Thanks a lot. Never noticed these check buttons (feeling a bit dumb now... lol).

[TrentLane]

Was the option to default open multiple windows instead of using crtl-click removed? I'm sure it was an option before.

[celestian]

Thanks a lot. Never noticed these check buttons (feeling a bit dumb now... lol).

Dual classing is pretty complex to code around. In theory any mistakes made the DM can manually correct XP wise. I've never actually had a player dual class in FGU but lots of multi-class.

[RESmeCUE]

Are there any plans for (or am I missing something) assigning Thief skill penalties to associated armor types worn?

Thank you.

[celestian]

Are there any plans for (or am I missing something) assigning Thief skill penalties to associated armor types worn?

Thank you.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but at the moment I can't find the link but...

There is no automation built into the system for this. There are fields in the skills to apply adjustments.

You "could" add effects to the armor appling skill modifiers as well.

[RESmeCUE]

OK.

No worries. More of an "I'm a lazy DM and don't want to check everything" type of question

[amanwing]

Two questions came up in the last couple of games.
1. There seems to be no way for the players to get the gold from the party sheet. If they drag and drop it, they get the gold, but the amount on the sheet is unchanged. So they can multiply the money. They also can't seem to change the numbers on the party sheet for the money.
2. They can't attack or roll in from their entry in the combat tracker. Maybe this is wanted and working as it should?
3. The sneak attack effect from a rogue is functioning as you would expect and even writes in the chat that the effect ends, but the effects of sneak attack stay active in the rogues entry in the combat tracker. The effect itself is not active anymore. So if the player attacks on the next turn he does not get the bonus, but it still is listed as an active effect for him.

[Erik L]

I have made several spell casters and I am seeing an issue with the spellcaster's memorization choices being there and not being there on different characters.
What I mean is I have a Feywarden and one Sonnlinor specialty priests. But under that Actions tab, power subtab, I have two different versions of how spells are memorized or choosen for that day's choosen spell from the list of spheres the character's have access too.
The Feywarden show's a spells memorized down the side next to each spell per level. Meaning I can choose to show three Cure Light Wounds spells being memorized but the Sonnlinor character just show's one spell to be memorized without the Wisdom bonus that should be applied to a Priest spell slots. So is there an issue with Specialty Priests or is there some other issue going on? I have tried to attach a photo twice.

[celestian]

Two questions came up in the last couple of games.
1. There seems to be no way for the players to get the gold from the party sheet. If they drag and drop it, they get the gold, but the amount on the sheet is unchanged. So they can multiply the money. They also can't seem to change the numbers on the party sheet for the money.
2. They can't attack or roll in from their entry in the combat tracker. Maybe this is wanted and working as it should?
3. The sneak attack effect from a rogue is functioning as you would expect and even writes in the chat that the effect ends, but the effects of sneak attack stay active in the rogues entry in the combat tracker. The effect itself is not active anymore. So if the player attacks on the next turn he does not get the bonus, but it still is listed as an active effect for him.


The DM is the only one that can disperse gold from the party sheet.

The CT for players is not extended like the DM side. Only the DM can run actions from the CT for NPC and Players.

I'm not sure I understand the last question.

[celestian]

I have made several spell casters and I am seeing an issue with the spellcaster's memorization choices being there and not being there on different characters.
What I mean is I have a Feywarden and one Sonnlinor specialty priests. But under that Actions tab, power subtab, I have two different versions of how spells are memorized or choosen for that day's choosen spell from the list of spheres the character's have access too.
The Feywarden show's a spells memorized down the side next to each spell per level. Meaning I can choose to show three Cure Light Wounds spells being memorized but the Sonnlinor character just show's one spell to be memorized without the Wisdom bonus that should be applied to a Priest spell slots. So is there an issue with Specialty Priests or is there some other issue going on? I have tried to attach a photo twice.

I am not sure I understand the issue. If you can provide a screenshot here (or in the AD&D discord channel) perhaps I can see the problem you are having.

[amanwing]

The DM is the only one that can disperse gold from the party sheet.

The CT for players is not extended like the DM side. Only the DM can run actions from the CT for NPC and Players.

I'm not sure I understand the last question.Thanks, ignore question 3 since I cannot reproduce it.

[Hjorimir]

This is such a fantastic ruleset. A little feedback/request: as Surprise checks are so fundamental to 2e, it would be fantastic if the DM could roll a hidden surprise check for the entire party (with modifiers). This could be done from either the CT or the Party Sheet.

[JohnD]

This is such a fantastic ruleset. A little feedback/request: as Surprise checks are so fundamental to 2e, it would be fantastic if the DM could roll a hidden surprise check for the entire party (with modifiers). This could be done from either the CT or the Party Sheet.

Yes please. And group saving throws. And group ability checks. And group skill checks.

[Hjorimir]

I've mentioned this elsewhere but at the moment I can't find the link but...

There is no automation built into the system for this. There are fields in the skills to apply adjustments.

You "could" add effects to the armor appling skill modifiers as well.

Here are all of the armor effects for anybody who wants to copy/paste...

THIEF SKILLS (ELVEN CHAIN); SKILL: -20 pick pockets; SKILL: -5 open locks; SKILL: -5 find/remove traps; SKILL: -10 move silently; SKILL: -10 hide in shadows; SKILL: -5 detect noise; SKILL: -20 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (PADDED/STUDDED LEATHER); SKILL: -30 pick pockets; SKILL: -10 open locks; SKILL: -10 find/remove traps; SKILL: -20 move silently; SKILL: -20 hide in shadows; SKILL: -10 detect noise; SKILL: -30 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (CHAIN MAIL - BARDS); SKILL: -25 pick pockets; SKILL: -10 open locks; SKILL: -10 find/remove traps; SKILL: -15 move silently; SKILL: -15 hide in shadows; SKILL: -10 detect noise; SKILL: -25 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (NO ARMOR); SKILL: 5 pick pockets; SKILL: 10 move silently; SKILL: 5 hide in shadows; SKILL: 10 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (SCALE/BANDED); SKILL: -50 pick pockets; SKILL: -20 open locks; SKILL: -20 find/remove traps; SKILL: -60 move silently; SKILL: -50 hide in shadows; SKILL: -30 detect noise; SKILL: -90 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (HIDE ARMOR); SKILL: -60 pick pockets; SKILL: -50 open locks; SKILL: -50 find/remove traps; SKILL: -30 move silently; SKILL: -20 hide in shadows; SKILL: -10 detect noise; SKILL: -60 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (RING/CHAIN); SKILL: -40 pick pockets; SKILL: -15 open locks; SKILL: -15 find/remove traps; SKILL: -40 move silently; SKILL: -30 hide in shadows; SKILL: -20 detect noise; SKILL: -40 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (BRIGANDINE/SPLINT); SKILL: -40 pick pockets; -15 open locks; SKILL: -25 find/remove traps; SKILL: -40 move silently; SKILL: -30 hide in shadows; SKILL: -25 detect noise; SKILL: -50 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (PLATE MAIL); SKILL: -75 pick pockets; SKILL: -40 open locks; SKILL: -40 find/remove traps; SKILL: -80 move silently; SKILL: -75 hide in shadows; SKILL: -50 detect noise; SKILL: -95 climb walls

THIEF SKILLS (PLATE ARMOR); SKILL: -95 pick pockets; SKILL: -80 open locks; SKILL: -80 find/remove traps; SKILL: -95 move silently; SKILL: -95 hide in shadows; SKILL: -70 detect noise; SKILL: -95 climb walls

[Hjorimir]

It appears that an INIT effect (e.g. INIT: -2) is ignored by the ruleset when initiative is rolled automatically at the start of a new round. However, it does work when the initiative is manually rolled from the character/NPC sheet.

[EOTB]

Yes, if characters have mods they need to roll off their sheet. The DM can use the auto roll for everyone without mods.

[Hjorimir]

Yes, if characters have mods they need to roll off their sheet. The DM can use the auto roll for everyone without mods.

Is there a reason for this? Would be nice if there was at least an option to include the modifiers for effects and Dex reaction.

[EOTB]

I'm not a coder, but I would guess it has something to do with the difference in difficulty between mapping a simple command to roll a die and assigning that result, to instead rolling a die, knowing what each actor was going to do that might have a dex or other adjustment to the raw initiative die result (and might not), and then assign the modified number to that individual and the non-modified result to anyone not having an adjustment.

[celestian]

Is there a reason for this? Would be nice if there was at least an option to include the modifiers for effects and Dex reaction.

Dex reaction is for surprise, not initiative. At least within the rules anyway. I know a lot of people do house rule it to also be used in initiative.

As far as the "auto" rolled initiative it's meant to be a "simple" role for tables that want to keep things basic. If the players/DM want more precise they would roll their weapon/spell/etc which applies all modifiers.

[nyanya]

I dunno if it's been reported already, but giving an NPC an int-based skill ignores their actual intelligence score. Looking at db.xml, it looks like the <intelligence> element of a newly created NPC doesn't have a <score> entry, which I think is what skills use. Monsters copied from modules seem to have this value, but it doesn't get updated if you change their int, so the skill remains based on a value of 10.

[celestian]

I dunno if it's been reported already, but giving an NPC an int-based skill ignores their actual intelligence score. Looking at db.xml, it looks like the <intelligence> element of a newly created NPC doesn't have a <score> entry, which I think is what skills use. Monsters copied from modules seem to have this value, but it doesn't get updated if you change their int, so the skill remains based on a value of 10.

Just ran a test to see, there is definitely something off. The CT copy has the correct int, ill have to do some digging to see what the source of the problem is.

[celestian]

Just ran a test to see, there is definitely something off. The CT copy has the correct int, ill have to do some digging to see what the source of the problem is.

I've some family events going right now so will not be able to look into this until sometime early next month.

[GregRex]

We had some 'Critical Hit' dice rolls log incorrectly tonight. Both NPCs and PCs were getting an extra crit dice. Evidence attached.

55197

[damned]

Hi Greg - what is the actual issue in the posted image?

[GregRex]

It's rolling two crit dice when a Critical Hit is registered

[GregRex]

It's rolling two crit dice when a Critical Hit is registered

Well scratch everything I said. Somewhere along the line the 'Attack: Damage Bonus on Critical' was adjusted. I didn't even know that Option existed. :p

[TrentLane]

Could we please get the option back to always open multiple windows? I often forget to hold ctrl when I already have a few windows open and close all the stuff I needed. Especially when I'm converting stuff it gets really annoying and tedious.

[celestian]

Could we please get the option back to always open multiple windows? I often forget to hold ctrl when I already have a few windows open and close all the stuff I needed. Especially when I'm converting stuff it gets really annoying and tedious.

The option is control my friend. The bulk of the use case users dont want 30 windows opened cluttering up the view space.

[TrentLane]

Yes, I know. I just don't see a reason why the option to NOT use control and have multiple windows open as default has been removed. This is the only ruleset that does it this way. So everytime I open my 2E campaign I need to adjust to a different workflow than in any other ruleset.
I get why it is a useful option. I just don't want to use it, and up until a couple of months ago I could choose if I wanted to or not. Where's the harm in letting me choose?

[celestian]

up until a couple of months ago I could choose if I wanted to or not. Where's the harm in letting me choose?

It has never been a campaign configuration option in the ruleset.

[TrentLane]

It has never been a campaign configuration option in the ruleset.

Not trying to be difficult, but I 100% remember there was a toggle in the options menu to to change the default to not use crtl+click. I don't have screenshots to prove it, but I spent dozens of hours converting Planescape things, and the first two things I set up in every campaign was sidebar/no-ctrl-click
But it still comes down to: Why can't I change this to behave as every other ruleset on FG? Traveller, Pathfinder, CoC, Sotdl, all of these just let me open multiple windows without thinking about pressing ctrl.
I just don't understand why I can't choose? People are bothered by 30 windows open. Fine. But I might want to open multiple windows with just a simple click, just as in every other ruleset I ever used. I do not want to rethink how I do things whenever I change to 2E.
I love the ruleset, but I don't understand this random change; it just makes my life as a DM harder for no reason.

[celestian]

Not trying to be difficult, but I 100% remember there was a toggle in the options menu to to change the default to not use crtl+click. I don't have screenshots to prove it, but I spent dozens of hours converting Planescape things, and the first two things I set up in every campaign was sidebar/no-ctrl-click
But it still comes down to: Why can't I change this to behave as every other ruleset on FG? Traveller, Pathfinder, CoC, Sotdl, all of these just let me open multiple windows without thinking about pressing ctrl.
I just don't understand why I can't choose? People are bothered by 30 windows open. Fine. But I might want to open multiple windows with just a simple click, just as in every other ruleset I ever used. I do not want to rethink how I do things whenever I change to 2E.
I love the ruleset, but I don't understand this random change; it just makes my life as a DM harder for no reason.

I went through and double checked the code, there has never been a option to disable it other than the control key. Perhaps you had an extension?

[TrentLane]

No extensions, but I noticed it sometime in august and even asked in this thread (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?48925-AD-amp-D-2E-Ruleset-Feedback-Information-Thread&p=660272&viewfull=1#post660272).
Besides that, could you please make it an option? Make crtl-click the default behaviour, all fine, I just want a way for this ruleset to behave like every other ruleset.
I can change between menu and sidebar by preference, it only makes sense that I could adjust this to my preference too.

[Durhazz]

I have an issue D&D Classics ruleset in FGU. When I open a window for like the fighter for example, then I open a second class like the Magic User, the fighter window closes and is replaced by the magic user. I can't have 2 classes open at the same time. This same thing happens with items, spells, and NPC's etc. The second window seems to replace the first instance of the first. In all of the other rulesets that I have used you can are able to have multiple class, item, npc, spells, etc, windows open at the same time. Is this a know bug or a feature? Please advise. Thank you.

[damned]

Hi Durhazz its a feature rather than a bug. It was coded deliberately to save screen space and window sprawl. Hold control when you open the second reference to open it in its own window.

[Durhazz]

This is huge! Thanks Damned!

[Mytherus]

Dusted off my old books of AD&D 2e (my PHB's binding is almost totally gone but its in better shape than I remembered beyond that) , Planescape is the impetus to refreshing / relearning 2e. I haven't touched the ruleset since the late 80's or very early 90's. I just bought the PHB/DMG/MM 2e versions for FGU.

I suppose this is the place to ask questions for the FGU 2e ruleset so here goes.

1) Does the ruleset auto calculate THAC0?

2) Am I missing something -- I'm used to how the FGU 5e ruleset lets you simply drag and drop spells into the action tab of character sheets. I tried this last night on a test character and it wouldn't add the spells. Is there something unique that has to be done to add spells for 2e?

Thanks.

PS. I'm re-reading AD&D 2e PHB, I forgot so much of that ruleset, but after reading parts I miss some of the rules 2e had that I wish 5e had.

[jab112]

1) yes
2) you need to click on the powers sub-tab

[celestian]

There is currently an issue with the Abilities and Save Score details windows. Something changed in the anchor display mechanics in FGU that caused them to be way offset. I've submitted an update and will see if they will push it as a hotfix.

[Moon Wizard]

The hot fix was pushed this morning.

Regards,
JPG

[celestian]

On the Test Channel the new version of the 2E ruleset is available for review. There has been a lot of backend template changes to follow the CoreRPG changes for 23-06 beta.

[paladinpreacher]

READY!!!!!! Thank you for this update

wish: Character Creation video once it drops officially?

[celestian]

READY!!!!!! Thank you for this update

wish: Character Creation video once it drops officially?

There already is one? About the 3rd post into this thread. But I'd recommend the wiki docs.

[paladinpreacher]

I see the one from 4 years ago, by AD&D Mike. I was referencing what you were pointing out in the thread about how there is a new version of the ruleset on the test realm & the backend template changes. Once that all becomes official & out in the public, would like to see a refreshed video on character creation & some of the changes. I just think this is such a sweet spot as people are looking for alternative to their fantasy RPG play experience & showcasing the classic AD&D content & pointing out that a lot of the arduous task of running said mechanics are eliminated by using Fantasy Grounds would be time well spent creating a new video. Thank you for reminding me of the other video already out there. Also, if you can link the wiki docs, I am not sure if I have run across these before or if the vagueness of the reference is escaping me. Thank you for all you do celestain. I hope your day is going well & you've had some nat 20's rolled this week in your life.

[celestian]

I see the one from 4 years ago, by AD&D Mike. I was referencing what you were pointing out in the thread about how there is a new version of the ruleset on the test realm & the backend template changes. Once that all becomes official & out in the public, would like to see a refreshed video on character creation & some of the changes. I just think this is such a sweet spot as people are looking for alternative to their fantasy RPG play experience & showcasing the classic AD&D content & pointing out that a lot of the arduous task of running said mechanics are eliminated by using Fantasy Grounds would be time well spent creating a new video. Thank you for reminding me of the other video already out there. Also, if you can link the wiki docs, I am not sure if I have run across these before or if the vagueness of the reference is escaping me. Thank you for all you do celestain. I hope your day is going well & you've had some nat 20's rolled this week in your life.

The character build process has not changed much since then.

The Test version I mentioned is mostly backend code and does not change the overall functionality or view of the ruleset.

[Tenebris]

... Also, if you can link the wiki docs, I am not sure if I have run across these before or if the vagueness of the reference is escaping me...

The documentation link is in celestian's signature.

[SylvanSnake]

It seems the Forest Runner kit in the Ranger's Handbook is missing. Could someone update it, please?

[celestian]

It seems the Forest Runner kit in the Ranger's Handbook is missing. Could someone update it, please?

Woops, somehow I missed that. I submitted an update with the included kit. Should show up on Tuesday's update.

[SylvanSnake]

Thanks for the quick response. You do good work!

[amanwing]

Is it possible to have a AD&D 2e Paladin aura grant the -1 to hit or +1 to AC vs. evil in 10 radius. There is an aura but it seems to be self only, or?
Paladin Aura(SELF); IFT: ALIGN(evil);AC: 1;

[celestian]

Is it possible to have a AD&D 2e Paladin aura grant the -1 to hit or +1 to AC vs. evil in 10 radius. There is an aura but it seems to be self only, or?
Paladin Aura(SELF); IFT: ALIGN(evil);AC: 1;

The paladin has pre-configured an effect for it but the "aura" feature in the ruleset is not used as it requires the tokens to all be on the map. Since some DM/players do not always use maps the effect rather than the aura effect is default.

You can certainly make one on your own using the examples here (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996641187/Reference+-+Effects#Aura-Examples) for your own game.

[amanwing]

The paladin has pre-configured an effect for it but the "aura" feature in the ruleset is not used as it requires the tokens to all be on the map. Since some DM/players do not always use maps the effect rather than the aura effect is default.

You can certainly make one on your own using the examples here (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996641187/Reference+-+Effects#Aura-Examples) for your own game.

I tried but it does not work. Something wrong or missing?
58215
It shows the aura on the map but doesn't adjust the enemy attack.
58219

Edit: Got the answer from Celestian via Discord:
I got the wrong one from the docu:
AURA:10 foe orange;IF:ALIGN(evil);ATK:-1
this is the correct one:
AURA:10 orange foe;IF:ALIGN(evil);ATK:-1

Thank you!

[SylvanSnake]

So, I manually added psionic powers to my game, but the ruleset doesn't seem to allow casting times for psionics. I want to add an initiative delay for certain powers, is that possible?

Edit: Oh, I found it. Didn't see it in Actions tab of the spell window.

[SylvanSnake]

Ok, so here's a suggestion that shouldn't be too difficult to implement. The original psionics rules in the psionics handbook function almost exactly the same as non-weapon proficiencies. So how about adding a separate section to the proficiencies page for psionics? Or at the very least, give players the ability to create skill categories in the way that different types of magic spells can be separated?
I understand there is no automation mechanism for NWPs, but most powers cause effects that can't really be automated anyway.