Extension to Make NPCs UI similar to PCs UI?

[Mad Nomad]

Is anyone aware of any kind of extension or mod or something that would make the NPCs (monsters) UI work like a PCs character sheet?
As a DM I find the PC charater sheets SOOOO much easier to use in combat than the NPC sheets. Rolling the attacks, applying the effects, and tracking what spells and abilities were used is so much easier to do from the PC sheet. Am I crazy? Am I the only one who feels that way?

Why couldn't the monsters UI work the same as a PCs?
In theory, I could create a PC sheet for the NPCs and add them to the tracker (but that is not practical), so I am wondering if that means there is the possibility that an extension could do something like that automajically? Not actually created a ton of characters, but jsut makign the UI look and function like the PC sheets do.

[Moon Wizard]

Suggestion
If you have a handful of "boss" style NPCs that you want to have the more complex PC-style UI, create them as PCs and take ownership as GM. Then, the PCs won't see them in the character selection list, and you can add them to combat tracker when needed.

Relating to Extension
In every game system out there, especially D&D and derivatives, NPC stat blocks are different than PC stat blocks. This is because NPCs are not supposed to be as complex to create or manage as PCs. The FG interface for each game system mirrors the stat block format provided by the publisher, since that makes data entry of creatures easier for the majority of users.

Depending on the game system (which you didn't mention), the UI would have to be built to support NPCs with a more complex interface, as well as fixing all the automation code to work with the new NPC data format to match. This is not a minor undertaking, since many, many files would need to be updated and maintained.

Regards,
JPG

[Mad Nomad]

Ya, I was afraid that might be the answer. I could see how it would be a lot of work.
However, I do think its a very reasonable thing to want and would enhance the game for DMs. I know the stat blocks are different and not as in depth. And you certainly don't need as complex a character sheet as PC (no need for inventory, notes, etc.) But I don't think there is a conceptual reason not to have the same kind of buttons to cast spells/abilities, apply effects, track them, etc. Basically the actions page is what I think is really needed. If every npc had an actions page, it would be really nice. But ya sounds like it'd be hard to do.

[Zacchaeus]

Indeed, you don't mention the game system but I've never had to open an NPC sheet during combat in 5e. Everything I need for attacks, saves etc is on the Combat Tracker.

[LordEntrails]

In short, every NPC does have an actions page, it's on the Combat Tracker and it expands when its the NPC's turn.

The games I run as GM I use D&D 5E. I would absolutely abhor it is I had to interact with NPC actions like I do for PCs'. Having to have ten or fifteen PC style sheets open for the NPC's to trigger their actions would be horrible. Their is not enough screen space for it and I would never know if I had the right NPC instance open.

As Moon and Mr. Z mentioned, I trigger all their actions off the Combat Tracker. I do often open up an NPC sheet during combat, but only to read the details of actions that I'm not familiar with the details of (especially spells and special attacks).

[Mad Nomad]

Yes I'm talking about 5e. Its a lot of work, ok, thats perfectly understandable and reasonable answer. But often when I post an idea on these forums that I am pretty confident would be an improvement, people feel need to tell me it is not needed or I shouldnt want it. So I'll give further examples why it would be useful, since people often can't imagine how things can be better...

- Ease of use and learning for new Dms... a good user interface doesn't have two totally different ways to perform the same types things, unless they are just both available all the time for options sake. This is a simple UX principle.
- When I am creating a new custom NPC, if I had a actions page simialr to a PCs, I could create actions just like with a PCs, by just naming it, clicking on the Add damage, or add effect options. These make it really easy to add things to a PC. Adding those to an NPC is much more difficult. You have to type it out in text and try to remember the exact wording needed to get it to show up right in the combat tracker as an action or be clickable. And some things you can add as actions and effects on PC sheet I am pretty sure you can not even do at all with the text format.
- Also this would allow you to add missing effects coding onto imported NPCs, not just ones created from scratch. Like for example, take drow house gaurd. He has parry ability which adds to AC. I could use effects coding to easily add this if it were on actions tab of NPC. Save it, then it would always be an option for that npc. But not as currently is. (that particular effect maynot be best example, but you get idea)
- Also, add drow mage to your combat tracker and tell me you wouldnt rather have that in an action page. Thats way too much info to be in the combat tracker, which is designed to provide an overview of the combat. You can't see anythign else when its that guys turn. If it could just show the little sword icon and dice icon like combat version of PC actions page, it would be a lot cleaner.
- Targeting things. I cant just cntrl click on a pc and then click the attack. I have to drag that text over onto the map, requiring a somewhat percise mouse movement. Which is tedious and annoying. Or I can open the targeting tab every turn, and drag that over. why not just cntrl click on the PC name in combat tracker or token, liek the PCs can do. Or like I can do for a PC when I choose a PC in the combat tracker.

And I totally get the need to be able to easily import the stat blocks from official material. However, the code could have imported stat blocks in the format they are in the manuals, but doesn't mean the UI put on top of that data couldn't have been formated into same design as PC sheets. The text could be turned into buttons rather than using the text as buttons.

Anyway, not criticizing. It's generally still pretty good as is. So no need to be defensive about how things are.

[Zacchaeus]

If you are looking to add effects to NPCs (and I agree that this would be useful) then you may get some mileage out of this extension https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40833-5E-Advanced-Effects-(items-npcs-characters)

[Trenloe]

- Targeting things. I cant just cntrl click on a pc and then click the attack. I have to drag that text over onto the map, requiring a somewhat percise mouse movement. Which is tedious and annoying. Or I can open the targeting tab every turn, and drag that over. why not just cntrl click on the PC name in combat tracker or token, liek the PCs can do. Or like I can do for a PC when I choose a PC in the combat tracker.
You can use normal CTRL+Left-click for NPC targeting - both on the combat tracker and via the tokens on the map. The key thing is that the NPC is the currently active NPC in the combat tracker (the tracker entry indicator is on that NPC) if using CTRL+left-click in the combat tracker (and click on the token to the left of the name in the CT, not the name itself) or that you left click on the source NPC token on the map and CTRL+left-click on the target token/s on the map.

[LordEntrails]

I didn't mean to come across as defensive, sorry about that.

[Mad Nomad]

Lord Entrails, no worries, I actually wrote my response before I even saw yours, so wasn't even refering to your post. Was just making general statement.
I also didn't do a great job framing my original proposal/quesiton.
Anyway, thank you all for the suggestions and references.
Trenloe, if the ctrl click thing does work for NPCs from combat tracker that would indeed certainly help. But it doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe I have some kind of bug or glitch. I just double checked it. I have an npc monster as active on combat tracker and control clicking PCs or other monsters won't alter its target. Not using tokens or the tracker. Yet when I switch to PC as the active person in tracker, and do the same things, it targets things as expected. For this reason I assumed it had something to do with the way PCs had different character sheets than NPCs and the way the acitons are shown and rolled etc. Odd that it works for others but not me. I'll have to spend more time investigating that.

[Zacchaeus]

You have to be fairly precise when targeting inside the CT, You need to mouse over the icon for the NPC or the player portrait for the PC on the extreme left of the NPC or PC line until you get the hand icon and then do the CTRL-click. It is easier to do the CTRL-clicking on tokens on the map rather than in the CT.

If this is still not working for you then it is likely either the theme you are using (if you are using a non-official one) or an extension which is interfering. Try in a new campaign without extensions or themes and if it works start adding back in whatever you are using until the problem recurs. You will then have found your culprit.

[damned]

While complex NPCs will take up a lot of screen space in the CT while they are active - its restored as soon as the next actor is active, it is info that the GM needs, its in a short precise format which I think is pretty easy to use.

Targeting by NPCs absolutely works. I always use targeting. While the PC is doing their thing I set up targeting on the next NPC(s) so that when its my turn Im efficient (like I want the players to be!).

The CT is not designed to provide an overview of the combat - it is designed as the GM tool to run combat.

Adding additional weapons or effects when syntax is an issue I generally duplicate something that is already on the sheet/tracker and edit that.

For AC effects Id tend to just increase their AC.

Possibly the issue is less with the CT and more with how to add additional info?

[Mad Nomad]

As an update, getting more familiar with some of the advanced combat tracker stuff has helped. Thanks for those who pointed that out. On further reflection, it seems the largest issues I still have are really related to creating or custmoizing NPCs, though others do remain. And I think my proposal would shift from having a PC character sheet for NPCs to instead a desire to have the control and editing of NPC work more similarly to that of PCs. It's not so much aboutcloning the PC sheet exactly.

I don't think anythign is likely to ever come of this, but just incase it's ever useful for future versions of FG or extensions I'll just document them here as a final thought.

Reasons for more PC like behavior and UI for NPC for 5e...

- Easier to add or customize the attacks of NPCs.
For PCs you can easily use the built in UI to add new attacks or spells or bonuses, damage types, or add effects to those attacks. With NPC UI, it is much more difficult.

- When creating NPCs you can not drag a spell to them and have it work like you can with a PC. This is because they are not buuilt like PCs with spell save DCs and such. So if I want an NPC to have 10 spells, I have to manually edit the text of each spell to make it work, changing the english so that they have a DC. If they worked liek character sheets, I could simply change their global DC.

- NPC sheets can be harder to read
With NPC that have abilities and spells, they can be very long, hard to quickly find things. The PC Ui allows for collapsing sections and using the shield icon to refer to spells and abilities. This would be nice in NPCs. At same time, I probably wouldn't want to have a bunch of tabs on the npc sheet like the pc sheet since many are not needed. But collapsing the NPC sheets and using the shielf icons more would be nice.

- WHile not always good to direct combat from an expanded NPC card, it would be much easier to do so if it worked more like a PC card. With similar combat action buttons rather than finding the hightlitable text in the paragraphs.

- Consistancy in the way thigns work, where to find various stats etc

[Zacchaeus]

As I think was pointed out above you should not need to refer to the NPC sheet during combat. All of the NPC actions are on the Combat Tracker and whilst it doesn't use buttons it's just a matter of double clicking on the attack, damage, saving throws, effects etc. You can click on the shield icon on the CT beside any of the actions or traits of an NPC to get a description of what that action or trait does, so I'm not sure what you mean by the NPC sheets being harder to read.

If the NPC can cast spells then you can automate the population of the actual spells into the NPC sheet. Additionally with the correct wording FG will work out the attacks and spell save DCs where those are present in the spell/ The trait should be named 'Spellcasting' and the wording should be as follows:
The [NPC] is a nth-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is [ability]. The [NPC] has the following spells prepared.
Cantrips (at will): <spell name>,<spell name>
1st level (4 slots): <spell name>, <spell name>
2nd level (2 slots): <spell name>, <spell name>
It is important that the wording is exactly as above including the punctuation. All spell names should be in lower case separated by a comma.
If the NPC has innate spellcasting abilities then replace the heading with 'Innate Spellcasting' and replace the 1st level, 2nd level etc with 3/day, 1/day or whatever the NPC rate of casting is.

This is how NPCs get their spells, saving throws etc. Before the Spellcasting trait was automatically parsed like this then it was as you describe above. NPCs required spells to be dragged in and then the Save etc had to be worked out for each spell. If you are editing a spellcasting NPC you can replace the spellcasting ability, level and spells and the mechanics will be preserved.

I agree that customising an NPC is more about replacing existing text with new text rather than drag/dropping items. However it's easy enough just to copy a trait or feature from one NPC to another so the typing bit is minimised.

As for consistency; remember you are the DM so you only have to worry about NPC attacks etc and all of the NPCs are consistent on how the information is displayed on the CT. Once you know how or where that info is displayed it doesn't matter how it's done for a character sheet.