Whole dungeon level on combat tracker?

[glenshoe]

I'm going to have my players run through a dungeon level that's populated with a bunch of monsters. I'm thinking about placing the entire roster of NPC's on the combat tracker. That way, once the alarm is raised, I can see where all the other NPC's are and where they're going to go. Also certain encounters will draw in monsters from other locations. I also employ the mask feature so my players cant see the whole dungeon level till they explore. My question is, is this OK? I'm pretty sure I can skip unseen NPC's in the CT. And if I toggle each token to the "mask sensitive" feature, they don't show up until I reveal that particular area. Or is that simply too many npc's to keep control of. There must be like 50-60 tokens on this level. Keep in mind, not all of them will be moving at the same time. Some of them have to stay to guard this room or that. Also I don't know about initiatives. Should I just roll once for everybody once the party starts the first combat? Or do I only roll once the monsters show up? I'm afraid me trying to decide where a bunch of monsters are going to go will slow the pace down to a crawl. Finally, is there a limit to how many slots I can throw into the combat tracker?

Thanks in advance for your input!

[celestian]

You might want to test it out first. I've had some serious "lag" issues with a large number of npcs in the CT.

The plan you describe is why I would prefer to have the npcs tokens ON the map to begin with. That way I can easily tell there are nearby creatures that might come if the pcs make a lot of racket.

[Andraax]

While you can do it, I wouldn't recommend it. Create an encounter for each group of monsters, and drop a link for the encounter onto the map. This way, you'll know where they are, but they're not cluttering up your CT. When you're ready to add them, it's two clicks to put them into the CT and onto the map.

[LordNova2]

In short what you are doing is called the "Headache" scenario. LOL
I have not done that many, around twenty-some is the most I have done in FG. It can get a bit confusing,hectic and slow with that many mobs to control *(and that does not include the delays and frustrations if you got bad players pulling their shenanigans, so keep that in mind too)*.

For simplicity, I would suggest keeping the mobs off the combat tracker when possible. Make some tokens (not tied to any NPC sheets) put them on the map (hidden) and use them to represent the mobs in a room/area and moving about the dungeon when aggroed from this area. Then set up your encounters for the mobs in each room/area that that token represents. When the players reach that area add in the mobs to the map and tracker when the players get there.

Unfortunately there is no real easy way of doing large numbers of mobs individually. You might want to check out the Unearthed Arcana: Mass Combat (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf) rules, however this would be more applicable if the party was facing off with all the denzines of the dungeon at once.
Large numbers of mobs scattered in a dungeon are large numbers of mobs scattered in a dungeon unfortunately...

[Andraax]

For simplicity, I would suggest keeping the mobs off the combat tracker when possible. Make some tokens (not tied to any NPC sheets) put them on the map (hidden) and use them to represent the mobs in a room/area and moving about the dungeon when aggroed from this area. Then set up your encounters for the mobs in each room/area that that token represents. When the players reach that area add in the mobs to the map and tracker when the players get there.

I just use pins linked to the encounters. If you give a meaningful name to the encounter, it shows up as a tool tip when you hover over the pin, and you can drag the pins around like you could a token. Plus, it's one click to bring up the encounter, and a second click to add all of the monsters to the CT from there.

[damned]

Hi glenshoe different VTTs do things in different ways.
the best/correct/intended way to do this in FG is - as the others above have posted - by way of Encounters.
Once you understand the concept of the Encounter it really makes things easy to use.

[Segin]

While you can do it, I wouldn't recommend it. Create an encounter for each group of monsters, and drop a link for the encounter onto the map. This way, you'll know where they are, but they're not cluttering up your CT. When you're ready to add them, it's two clicks to put them into the CT and onto the map.

Thats a great idea. Can move the pin around which more or less represents the monsters moving and if encountered, bam, click on the pin just as if encountered stationary in a room. Sweet.

[damned]

you can also re-use an encounter - say the party are waltzing thru the challenge you can simply add it again to the CT as reinforcements arrive :)

[Ken L]

This is where you'd use maptokens. AK does this but it comes with a bunch of other changes as well.

[Andraax]

This is where you'd use maptokens. AK does this but it comes with a bunch of other changes as well.

Or pins. Which is built in. :-)

[seycyrus]

Not trying to steal a thread, but it was the ramifications of the concepts being discussed here, that makes me think there is a need for what I (perhaps clumsily) call "Persistent Combat Tracker data - NPCs".

What happens if the reinforcements arrive, take casualties, and run away to join up with another group of casualties to hunker down in another part of the dungeon - that is, what if the encounters dynamically evolve? What if some of them partially heal or cure some of their ill-effects?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to pull NPCs off the combat tracker with their current status (wounds, spell effects, etc.) and combine them into a new encounter?

If you agree, please vote, https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=118089.

[GavinRuneblade]

Unfortunately there is no real easy way of doing large numbers of mobs individually. You might want to check out the Unearthed Arcana: Mass Combat (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf) rules, however this would be more applicable if the party was facing off with all the denzines of the dungeon at once.
Large numbers of mobs scattered in a dungeon are large numbers of mobs scattered in a dungeon unfortunately...
Andraax mentioned the pins and you can just move pins as needed. In another thread there was a discussion of using two maps at once, one for DM only, and you can have tokens on that DM only map showing the types and basic locations.

For attacks when they show up, optional rules have been published in several places, and DMs have proposed even more variations how to handle it. The three I like best are these.

Most realistic and for big mobs
If you have a mob, just figure the number needed to hit turn it into a % and average damage and have them deal that fixed amount per round without rolling. So on a d20 every pip is 5%, if you have a mob of 40 angry peasants throwing rocks and they need a 17 to hit, that's 20% (4 pips, 17, 18, 19, and 20; at 5% each). If the rocks do 1d4 then the average is 2.5, multiplied by the 8 that hit each round = 20 damage per round from flying rocks. As they get killed the damage decreases naturally.

Less realistic and for small mobs
For smaller but still inconvenient mobs, like 5 or 6 angry peasants throwing rocks, the DMG recommended using the fixed damage so you only roll say 6d20 and then any 17+ multiply by the fixed 2 damage. Fast and easy.

Fastest and easiest for any size mob
A blogger I like said that as parties level low damage like that becomes trivial so even these methods take too much time and simply assigning a realistic fixed but random damage might be quicker and still feel fun. Like "The angry peasants hurl rocks at you again and you take 2d6 damage".

[LordNova2]

Andraax mentioned the pins and you can just move pins as needed. In another thread there was a discussion of using two maps at once, one for DM only, and you can have tokens on that DM only map showing the types and basic locations.

For attacks when they show up, optional rules have been published in several places, and DMs have proposed even more variations how to handle it. The three I like best are these....


My use of slang may have caused some confusion. I am using the MMORPG slang/term "mob", where mob = NPC, not an "angry mob". Well they could still be angry, as from most denizens perspectives the PCs are home invaders, thieves, and cold-blooded killers. LOL


I was also assuming the OP's dungeon was diverse with its NPCs, where there are a healthy verity of different monsters (different stat-blocks) that make up the denizens of the dungeon.

I just counted and in my game we had last night (a published adventure by WOTC) and there were originally 51 NPCs with 14 different stat-blocks used, keep in mind there was another two levels to this place so lots more NPCs they could aggro if they took off running into another level. (And yes I have one of those players... LOL) There was some variation from that count, as due to the players actions two NPCs could not make it to this place, and I added a "captain" for the guards. So the end result was 50 NPCs with 13 different stat-blocks. The three biggest groups of the same stat-blocks were 20 (these guys were drunk, passed out), 10, and 6.
The combat/dungeon was very role-play heavy too. They were smuggled in by hiding in creates of treasure and were dropped off in a treasure chamber, their goal was to sneak about to quickly sabotage the pace and get out.... A rather simple and easy mission. ...We all know how something so simple and easy always tuns out. LOL
There are also NPCs representing at least three different "groups" in this place, each with their own agendas (even apposing agendas, which will become relevant at a later date.), one of these groups could be powerful allies to the players if they play their cards right.

So it is not like they were in the town square and started a large mob of angry peasants by yelling "King Murphy sniffs ogre turds!". LOL
To further complicate things the party (of five) has been for the most of it split into three groups over the past two sessions. (What can I say they like to live dangerously)

I also forgot to mention some of these NPCs have features/abilities (some had legendary abilities) that allow extra damage once a round if an allie are withing a range of its target, and such... Most of them have different attacks (types) they can make, including and spells, and some have spell books with an assortment of spells to choose from... The NPCs and encounters are so complex and dynamic that it is difficult to simplify them by just averaging them out.
Averaging out the attack/damage for a group of NPCs works best if they are mostly of the same stat-block, and rather mundane (commoners, guards (or henchmen), goblins, kobolds, skeletons, zombies, ogres...).

The stat blocks also show average damage(s), (as in the second example you gave). Since it is automated in FG, I have not heard too many DMs going with the average for damages. But in the long run dice rolls do tend average out the more dice you throw down.
Style of play also comes into factor as well too. I look at the attack rolls as a method to say the attack was a miss/hit/critical, the damage tells us how successful, or critical, of a hit it was. While I need to do better at this myself, rolling for damage is a nice tool for adding flavor. The attack hits and you roll for the goblin's damage (1d6+2) you roll a 1 for total of 3 damage, "A goblin comes at you taking a swing with this scimitar at your head, you move causing the goblin to miss, the majority o the blow goes into your shoulder armor with just the tip of the sword slicing a small shallow cut into your arm as the goblin follows through with the swing. Dealing three slashing to you.", where as if the goblin rolled a 6 for a total of 8 damage "The goblin gives a swing at your center of mass, directly hitting you, the blade lands between the plates of your armor, deeply slashing into your side dealing eight slashing damage."

seycyrus has it nailed on how dynamic encounters in a dungeon can be, as well as the dungeon itself. And his proposed idea this would be a nice function to have.

Andraax's suggestion of using pins to encounter sheets is a good idea that I overlooked. I can easily see myself easily mixing them up with the story-pins and making a mess out of things. Perhaps this is why he did not recommend it. LOL


However this is also Fantasy Grounds we are talking about. A very powerful tool that can easily keep track of miss/hit/critical, saving throws, damages, damage resistances and the lot; it is literally as easy as Drag & Drop and Point & Click! :)
I made the switch from Roll20 as I got tired how the VTT system was so slow, especially with opening and juggling multiple NPC sheets. This is because your browser is trying to crunch up to several hundred MB of HTML data. The OGL character sheets on Roll20 come in at around half the size with their HTML code of the Monster Manuals XML database in Fantasy Grounds, and that is saying allot as to how clunky Roll20 is. The Shaped Sheets for 5e are even worse, much worse as the HTML from the character sheet increases to being 3-5 times the size of the same Monster Manual database. Yuck! (My GM who runs an Epic level campaign in 5E is switching to FG as he is tired of loading up his game's page in Roll20, walking away from the computer for 20-30, and it is still agonizingly slow to do anything and work on the adventure and make/tweak NPCs.)

In the OP's case it is keeping track of where all the denizens are at and what they are doing, and remembering that there are eight guards in the next room that will join the fight if they hear combat, but the eight one will first run off to the other room and release the trolls from their cages before joining the fight.... Not to mention how they could retreat to another area of the dungeon when injured or call for more backup if they start loosing.

All three of the solutions you gave are great and work very well, under the condition that the NPCs are simple/mundane and they primarily work off the same stat block. Otherwise you are constantly reworking the averages and missing out on some of the features/abilities that make that NPC such a challenging encounter.

Running an active dungeon with diverse NPCs and dynamic encounters is hard and allot of work. Some DMs can find it easier to keep track of all this than others. There are a few tricks to make some things a bit easier. But it is still allot of hard work on the DM's side to run these dungeons.

[GavinRuneblade]

All three of the solutions you gave are great and work very well, under the condition that the NPCs are simple/mundane and they primarily work off the same stat block. Otherwise you are constantly reworking the averages and missing out on some of the features/abilities that make that NPC such a challenging encounter.

Running an active dungeon with diverse NPCs and dynamic encounters is hard and allot of work. Some DMs can find it easier to keep track of all this than others. There are a few tricks to make some things a bit easier. But it is still allot of hard work on the DM's side to run these dungeons.
Option 3. Just assign a level of damage that appears appropriate and apply it. Reduce as they die. Make attacks only for the relevant/significant ones.

And yes, I know exactly how complicated something simple can get. I have one game with a pixie PC and when we were doing the Princes of the Apocalypse (which has 13 connected dungeons each with 40 to 90 NPCs) at one point he had gotten the party split among three of the 13 dungeons with something like 36 NPCs using over 20 stat blocks interacting with various party members either violently or not. They also had talked 4 NPCs from an earlier adventure to follow them for a while into one of the surface levels. It was busy to say the least.

[Nylanfs]

Why not a combo, place a single token for each NPC group, make that group and encounter and pin it. As combat / exploration progresses move the token, and the associated pin for that group as the patrol etc.

[Andraax]

Why not a combo, place a single token for each NPC group, make that group and encounter and pin it. As combat / exploration progresses move the token, and the associated pin for that group as the patrol etc.

Why do you need the token? Just place the pin and move it around...

[Nylanfs]

Visual, plus you might have turn the pins so they only show with a CTRL press