ICE/MERP/Copyright, etc...

[BlackCultist]

[MODERATOR - moved this discussion to its own thread]

That's a big shame - ICE have produced some good stuff in the past (MERP comes to mind). I've always wondered whether ICE would allow community converted MERP modules to be available on FG, even if it was done freely (no $ involved).

[Bale Nomad]

When it comes to MERP, ICE is probably the lesser concern compared to Middle Earth Enterprises (formerly Tolkien Enterprises - which has very little to do with the Tolkien family).

[BlackCultist]

Reading about Middle Earth Enterprises in wiki, it would appear that their business model and main source of income is generated from suing anyone they can, or from selling rights to use content or names from Tolkien's works - they don't seem to produce anything Tolkien related themselves.

[Andraax]

ICE no longer has access to the license from Middle Earth Enterprises. So, *none* of the MERP stuff can be distributed legally. It would require permission from both, and they don't work together anymore, plus Middle Earth Enterprises doesn't want to irritate it's current licensee.

[BlackCultist]

It's sad that such extensive content and work is just sitting there and can no longer be used. SmiteWorks seems to be very good at getting licenses (way ahead of Roll20 for example for D&D 5e) - would SmiteWorks be interested and/or able to do a deal with ICE/MEE for MERP to be converted to FG? FG is great for Rolemaster, but is severely lacking in available adventure modules. MERP content for FG's Rolemaster would be an excellent addition.

[Andraax]

The breakup between ICE and MEE was pretty sore on both sides. MEE actually forced ICE to pulp a warehouse full of printed materials that ICE had already paid for but could no longer sell.

[BlackCultist]

Sounds like MEE are not very nice people.

[Bale Nomad]

The tale of the good professor's intellectual property is pretty tragic. On the one hand, you have MEE wanting to monetize it any way possible, and on the other hand you have the Tolkien family estate who would preserve ONLY the original content like so many fossils. Both extremes are prone to dangers no one between them wants - sand worms in Dale?! And absolutely no games or cinematic productions?!

Both extremes are contrary to what I interpret as Professor Tolkien's original intent of having other minds and hands continue the tales of middle earth.

[BlackCultist]

It'll be interesting to see if Cubicle7 encounter similar issues as ICE did with MEE.

Also, what happens when it hits 2023 (50 years after the good professor's death)? Or is it 70 (as per UK)?

[Bale Nomad]

Here's a discussion of the UK copyright laws as they might apply to Tolkien's literary works: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/87320/when-will-copyright-restrictions-expire-on-the-lord-of-the-rings

I did not search for any discussions regarding MEE and US copyright law. All the game materials and films are derivative works based on the license originally acquired from professor Tolkien by one of MEE's ancestor legal entities, and so the existence of those works and related copyrights likely will muddy the waters even further for a much longer time.

Given the seminal nature of Tolkien's work, it is my opinion that Sithney will one day acquire MEE, and then none of it will EVER go into the public domain. One mouse to rule them all ...

[Trenloe]

I've moved this discussion to its own thread. Go nuts! :)

[BlackCultist]

So it looks like it may still be a while before Tolkien's work is available in the public domain. And probably an even longer wait for MERP to be available in the same way (as it will contain ICE copyright material).

Would there be any hope of SmiteWorks being able to weave some of their magical ability to get licenses to both, so we can get MERP onto FG? Surely, ICE wouldn't give up a chance to make some money in royalties given that they seem to be taking forever to deliver RMU; and wouldn't MEE want to make as much $ as possible before PD date? (even though MEE and ICE may not be the best of friends any more). What's more, FG's RMC could really benefit from this as there is a severe lack of adventure modules for an excellent ruleset.

[Moon Wizard]

We have pursued several license of a license type RPG products over the years; and we have not had any luck. Usually, the RPG publisher is interested; but the IP holder has already licensed the "electronic rights" to a video game studio, or has no interest.

Maybe the fans can convince the publishers and IP holders to come to us? ;)

Regards,
JPG

[pindercarl]

Tolkien licenses are overly protective and notoriously byzantine. Back when I was at Electronic Arts, the studio was developing Battle for Middle-Earth. The license was for a video game based on the Peter Jackson movie adaptation, not the original source material. This dictated not only the visuals of the game, but also precluded using any Tolkien IP that was not specifically referenced in the movie. The video game rights for the literary work was held by someone else. Similarly, at the time, I was working on Golden-Eye 2 and everything had to be approved by MGM and the Broccoli family. Barbara Broccoli vetoed every "new" idea.

As John points out, while the RPG developer has acquired the rights to develop a pen-and-paper role-playing game, the rights to electronic games are usually held elsewhere. While we can all agree that a VTT version of an RPG is significantly different from a video game, the army of lawyers that negotiates the rights would disagree.

Warner Brothers currently has the video game license, so from the electronic side you'd have to negotiate with WB and then MEE. Cubicle 7 has the RPG license, so you'd have to negotiate with them first, the MEE. Even if ICE was on board, MERP would compete with Cubicle 7's The One-Ring, so...yeah, I think MERP will likely remain in the dustbin of history along side WEG's Ghostbusters and Star Wars, as well as FASA's Star Trek.

[BlackCultist]

I'm a bit deflated now. I was hoping by now there would be some way of getting MERP onto FG to complement the RMC ruleset (MERP existed some 20-35 years ago and was dumped). Cubicle7 managed to get licenses for The One Ring - I noticed that they also have 'Sophisticated Games' as a licensee on their books, but not sure exactly what their role is.

Unfortunately, 'The One Ring' just doesn't float my boat. The game mechanics are just too abstract/generic/simplistic and, bizarre, in some areas.

If all else fails, would it be allowable to convert MERP modules for FG and make them available to the FG community totally free of charge? (non-commercial) - I notice that Valarian has a community developed version of The One Ring linked on the FG Wiki Main Page. Could this be done for MERP (noting that it would be using the RMC ruleset)?

[Trenloe]

I'm a bit deflated now. I was hoping by now there would be some way of getting MERP onto FG to complement the RMC ruleset (MERP existed some 20-35 years ago and was dumped). Cubicle7 managed to get licenses for The One Ring - I noticed that they also have 'Sophisticated Games' as a licensee on their books, but not sure exactly what their role is.
As has been mentioned above, licenses of licenses are different - to get MERP on FG there would need to be agreements with ICE and MEE. Additionally, as also mentioned, putting any of this on FG would be classed as a computer game - and that needs a whole new license as well.


If all else fails, would it be allowable to convert MERP modules for FG and make them available to the FG community totally free of charge? (non-commercial)
Not unless you get permission from the copyright holders. Copyright holds even if distributed for free.


I notice that Valarian has a community developed version of The One Ring linked on the FG Wiki Main Page. Could this be done for MERP (noting that it would be using the RMC ruleset)?
Valarian doesn't include any of the data from ToR - just the mechanics. Under US copyright laws, the mechanics of a game can't be copyright. But any of the written word/prose/graphics/names from a game are copyright. So, in theory, someone could write a MERP extension for RMC - but all it could do is reflect the mechanics of the MERP RPG (essentially dumbing down RMC) and the very, very basic numerical values of base data records - the mechanics of the game.

I know you're disappointed that you won't see MERP on FG. It's just not going to happen I'm afraid.

[BlackCultist]

If all else fails, would it be allowable to convert MERP modules for FG and make them available to the FG community totally free of charge? (non-commercial)
Not unless you get permission from the copyright holders. Copyright holds even if distributed for free.

So Trenloe, I know it's a long shot, but, if permission was granted from MEE and ICE, would it be possible to produce MERP modules for the RMC ruleset for FG?

p.s. It looks like you're currently located in my home city! Hope you're having fun over there. :)

[Trenloe]

So Trenloe, I know it's a long shot, but, if permission was granted from MEE and ICE, would it be possible to produce MERP modules for the RMC ruleset for FG?
I'm sure it would.


p.s. It looks like you're currently located in my home city! Hope you're having fun over there. :)
It's my home city too! Currently surviving... ;)

[esmdev]

All that being said, you could still port your MERP adventures into RMC and run/play them yourself without distributing it. It really depends on your personal desire to play the material vs. share the material.

Indeed if you were to port the maps and modules to your own personal RMC server you could sort of share it by running it as a GM for people. You can't distribute your modules to the community but you could run them for the community.

My personal recollection of both versions of MERP was version 1 was better for Middle Earth feel than version 2, but version 2 was closer to the more unified RPG system that ICE was slowly lurching towards (aka Rolemaster). Prior to MERP most people just used Arms Law and Spell Law for critical tables in D&D, the early version of character law was sort of a interesting read but not worth the effort.

[esmdev]

Um, one other bit of information. The rights are actually split between the family and MEE. Material from the Hobbit and Trilogy are held by MEE while the pre-1st age, 1st age, 2nd age, and most of 3rd age (and I think the 4th age) are still held by Tolkien Estate. In order to produce a product that covers both you would need rights from both. MEE has proven that they don't mind multiple similar products within their holdings (LOTRO + new in development MMO being an example). The Tolkien Estate on the other hand has proven they really don't like anyone doing anything with their holdings that isn't them.

I remember thinking when MERP production was shuttered that ICE seemed way off the reservation with their early era sourcebooks based on my understanding of the licensing at the time and that might be why it all imploded. I don't know if this is what happened but I've always thought it might be a factor.

[Andraax]

I remember thinking when MERP production was shuttered that ICE seemed way off the reservation with their early era sourcebooks based on my understanding of the licensing at the time and that might be why it all imploded. I don't know if this is what happened but I've always thought it might be a factor.

When it all "imploded" was about the time they were starting work on the films, and they wanted new / more profitable contracts for gaming products.

[Valarian]

I'm a bit deflated now. I was hoping by now there would be some way of getting MERP onto FG to complement the RMC ruleset (MERP existed some 20-35 years ago and was dumped). Cubicle7 managed to get licenses for The One Ring - I noticed that they also have 'Sophisticated Games' as a licensee on their books, but not sure exactly what their role is.
Sophisticated Games is the licensee and creator of The One Ring. Cubicle 7 are the publisher in the UK.

[Sulimo]

When it all "imploded" was about the time they were starting work on the films, and they wanted new / more profitable contracts for gaming products.


ICE had a near bankruptcy in 1993, then their distribution network collapsed. Additionally, the price of paper practically doubled overnight. This is why there was never a Southern Gondor module for 2E (it ended up being split in two, People and Land, and is why they split the Arnor module up).

When ICE filed for bankruptcy (chapter 11) in 1999, that allowed Tolkien Enterprises (later Middle Earth Enterprises) to pull the license, if this bankrupcy had not happened (and the chapter 7 in 2001) ICE may have been able hold onto the license, the terms that ICE had very very good (ICE basically got the license because no one else had asked for it previously).

ICE of course made other mistakes. See the links below if you are interested in the history of ICE.


A brief history part 1. (https://www.rpg.net/columns/briefhistory/briefhistory8.phtml)
Part 2. (https://www.rpg.net/columns/briefhistory/briefhistory9.phtml)

[skippern]

I read in an ICE newsletter a short while back (cannot remember exactly what month), that no MERP/Middle Earth material will be supported by ICE unless Middle Earth Enterprises accept economic terms within the grasp of ICE (Middle Earth Enterprises require large upfront payments and steep percentages of revenue, ICE is barely breaking even).