Help/Thoughts on using the battlemaps to "see" encounters coming up as a GM

[BrettM]

EDIT: I added a comment below (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46184-Help-Thoughts-on-using-the-battlemaps-to-quot-see-quot-encounters-coming-up-as-a-GM&p=410915&viewfull=1#post410915) with images to hopefully further clarify my post.

Hi! I know there seems to be a influx of Roll20 converts coming to FG, so please forgive yet another Roll20 comparison :< ...

As DM, in Roll20 I could see all the NPC tokens on a battlemap, giving me a 'hint' of what was in each room, etc., as PCs explored. E.g., if they go right, there are 6 bugbears; if they go left there's a black pudding. On FG there doesn't seem to be such a 'hint' -- the NPC tokens only appear when I open the story info for that room / area, and drag the encounter onto the CT.

(Of course, reading ahead in the adventure is key -- but just because I've read ahead doesn't mean I've memorized each room, number of NPCs, etc.)

Any hints from other FG GMs for running a dungeon battlemap where I can "see ahead" to remember / remind myself what's waiting for the players, without having to add all dungeon encounters to the CT just to 'see' the NPC tokens on the battlemap? My thanks!

Brett.

[Targas]

First, it is possible to see half transparent where you placed your monster - if you prepped them in advance.
In short how it works. First create a new encounter with the monsters to bundle them together. Give it a meaningful name like 01 Goblinambush, and put a link into the story entry, as well as the player map (but don‘t accidently share all pins). Prep your map, where you want to place those monsters. Most important, put a grid on it in advance. After you did so, you can simply drag a monster from the encounter you created and put them on your map. You will notice, it will show the token on the map, you‘ll see a checkmark on the encounter you put the monster correctly on the map. Do so with the full set until you have all checkmarks. Now if you close the encounter window, you will notice all your monsters on your map are gone. What the heck... Well, when you reopen the encounter window and press the down arrow on the encounter window, to be found bottom left, here they are again . They will pop up in the combat racker as well - hidden. you can toggle visibility with the eye symbol.

You won‘t need to have all encounters open at the same time, as combat can get confusing. But you will see where the adventurers stumble upon, by having the encounter öin on the map. As long as you just open this, and don‘t press the arrow down button as well, they will not be placed in the combat tracker.

[BrettM]

Thanks Targas. Regarding this...


As long as you just open this, and don‘t press the arrow down button as well, they will not be placed in the combat tracker.

How do I see the NPC tokens without placing in the CT?

I was able to follow all of your info about -- creating encounters and placing NPC/tokens on the map, etc. I'm all good up to that point as I have the encounters build... or pre-built in some cases (I've bought Tomb of Annihilation as that is what I'm currently running). And you're right, I don't want all the encounters from Area 1 to Area 10 on the CT -- that will be confusing... but I would like a visual to see all the tokens in Area 1, 2, 3 ... etc. so I have a visual cue to what's coming up.

So your comment, "As long as you just open this, and don't press the arrow down button" seems to be the answer as I don't necessarily want them on the CT, but want to see the tokens. What is the "just open this" you're referring to? The encounter? Thanks!

[BrettM]

Hopefully these images help clarify what I'm trying to accomplish (kept small to keep reduce spoilers as much as possible for any future players)...

Here's the Player Map without any tokens:
25023

Here's the Player Map with tokens but in order to have those tokens show up for me, the GM, to see, I had to add them to the CT. Ideally I'd like to see all NPC tokens on a map, regardless if they end up in combat, so I know what's coming if the players head in that particular direction. However other FG DMs may have a different method of "knowing what's coming" without the visual token clue -- I'm just used to that from 2.5 years on Roll20, but happy to consider other methods!
25024

[pindercarl]

One of the key differences between Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds is that in Roll20 is sheet/token based and Fantasy Grounds is database driven. (Which is why in Roll20 you see the difficulties between folks using the Shaped 5E sheet vs. the OGL sheet, for example). In Roll20, adding a token to the map is adding the character/NPC to the map. In Fantasy Grounds, a token is just a picture unless it "goes through" the combat tracker, thus building the link between the token and the character.

You could, I suppose, drag a token from the token bag to act as a reminder to the GM as to the encounter in that location. If I really wanted a visual reminder, I might be inclined to add a bugbear token to the map (from the token bag) near the encounter shortcut and scale it up (hold the CTRL-key and then scroll wheel over the token to change the scale). Set it to always invisible through the radial-menu to make sure the players don't see it. Be sure not to overlap the token and the shortcut, as tokens take mouse priority over the shortcuts. You could then name the encounter "6 Bugbears." When you hover the mouse over the encounter shortcut, you would see the tooltip "6 Bugbears."

[Targas]

What is the "just open this" you're referring to? The encounter? Thanks!
Apologies, yes with ...this... I was referring to the pin on the map which is a link to the encounter containing all monsters. On the right hand side of the encounter window there is a small symbol, which should open the monster stats, or sometimes a picture which can be placed in the ‚other‘ tab.

I guess every GM might have a different approach. I never put pins on a player map myself (because I accidently shared all pins of a players map once containing encounter pins), but have two maps. One for the players and one for the GM. The GM one is not just keyed, but depicts traps, secret doors, includes story pins for each room, as well as a nearby encounter pin, or image pins to nearby maps (e.g. stair up/down), so I don‘t have to search through lots of stuff.

In the story I separate the link to the GM and the player map by at least one empty line (because once I accidently shared the GM map, by clicking on the wrong link just pixels apart).

The GM map can be fairly low size, like 400x600 pixels. The player map is at least 50 pixel each square. With the Illwinter mapping program, it‘s now 64pixels each square. I run the player map as png through some paint program to compress it to jpg. The best ever doing a better compression than Photoshop and others is funny enough the previous competition Ulead Photo Impact, but that‘s just a side note. My player maps just contain high resolution pictures of less than 1 MB. I make the choice based on quality, even if some say keep sizes low. I never had problems so far, and mind you my biggest map with 250 linked pins I created for the sword coast was 5.5kx6k in size.
As I say everyone is doing it different. I hope I could help. Happy GMing...

[BrettM]

Thanks pindercarl & Targas. I’m starting to understand the difference between Roll20 and FG on this. I didn’t expect FG to work exactly like Roll20... in the fact the reason for the move to FG is I feel it has more to offer than Roll20, so I’m trying to take my Roll20 methods and ‘convert’ them best to how FG works.

It may be interesting to see different ways various DMs run their FG games. It seems some have both the DM and Player map open at the same time. Others just the player map, etc.

Everyone will run it differently... I’m finding my way to which method works best for me. Thanks again!

[Valyar]

The right way to run your game during combat and get all the benefits of the automation is characters to combat tracker and from combat tracker to the map.

[shadzar]

It may be interesting to see different ways various DMs run their FG games. It seems some have both the DM and Player map open at the same time. Others just the player map, etc.

There is about 30 people that stream FG on Twitch, and i am unsure how many use Youtube.

If you have Twitch and Wish to find out more about this live where you can see things and answers to questions like this live in FG when you ask, FGC and Rob2e present a show on Rob2e's channel called "All Things Fantasy Grounds" (not affiliated with SmiteWorks, though Rob is a SmiteWorks employee. He does this on the side not as part of customer service or social media personnel.)

The show is on Sunday's 6pm Pacific timezone. They are off this week, but you cans ee pasts shows on Rob2e youtube.

Recent discussion was even had about the Waterdeep: Dragon Heist maps SNAFU, and how the Dyson Logos maps, good as always, were probably better suited for DM maps with keys rather than play maps, thus why FG include the converted to full color, by Zacc, maps as a module (exclusive to FG) when you purchase it on FG.

Though a bunch of people wish that FG and other VTTs would include both a DM map keyed and an unkeyed player map for use. You can't always tell with the pins what something is without bringing up 30 windows, as opposed to looking at a keyed DM map and bringing up the reference manual to just look and see what things are on that map before play to be ready to use the pins and story entries and links and other windows DURING pay.

You can always take a map and copy it to make your own notes and NOT share it with the players so you have your DM map for anything though. though i think it is said best to do the multiple layers extension for that type of "marked maps" to have like a GM layer from roll20 in FG to allow yo to see things without showing them to players.

[GavinRuneblade]

Thanks pindercarl & Targas. I’m starting to understand the difference between Roll20 and FG on this. I didn’t expect FG to work exactly like Roll20... in the fact the reason for the move to FG is I feel it has more to offer than Roll20, so I’m trying to take my Roll20 methods and ‘convert’ them best to how FG works.

It may be interesting to see different ways various DMs run their FG games. It seems some have both the DM and Player map open at the same time. Others just the player map, etc.

Everyone will run it differently... I’m finding my way to which method works best for me. Thanks again!

If I'm running/adapting a published adventure, then during prep time, I add every encounter to the area map and look at it with ALL the NPCs laid out just to get an idea of the area.

During play, I activate encounters a step or two ahead of the players so I can have NPCs flee in logical directions, call for help, bring in reinforcements, etc with an emphasis on "logical". Don't want an orc fleeing down a hallway toward undead he should know are there, unless he's really that panicked and desperate.

For my homemade stuff I have a similar solution to Targas above where I make a small, low-rez map for myself and put notes on it rather than full encounters etc. and keep it up during play. Unlike Targas I do put pins on all my PC maps.

[Trenloe]

Though a bunch of people wish that FG and other VTTs would include both a DM map keyed and an unkeyed player map for use.
This wish has already been granted!

FG has been doing this as standard in the majority of the products produced in the store for a number of years. There is usually a keyed DM map (as presented in the original product) with numbers, traps, secret doors, etc. shown - so that the GM can look things up directly in the reference manual and/or story entries based off the reference numbers on the map. Plus the story entries will be pinned (linked) to the GM map.

Then there will be a map produced for the players - with the key, numbers, traps, etc. removed - and the story entries pinned to the map for quick reference by the GM during play.

I'm wondering what "bunch of people" are making these wishes for FG, when what they wish for has been around for years?

Here's an example of the usual FG standard, taken from the Pathfinder Playtest Doomsday Dawn (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=PZOSMWPZO2100MFG) FG product. The map top center is the GM map - with the map key and FG story links. The top left is the reference manual - produced in a similar format to the original product, with numbered locations so the GM can find the info based off the GM map quickly and easily if they prefer running using the reference manual format. Link to story entries are also provided - with some of the story entries shown in the top right. Bottom right, underneath the other windows, is the main player map - at a good pixel size for play, with all of the GM specific info removed. FG links are also provided allowing the GM to run the game purely from the player map if that's what they desire. There's a lot of flexibility in this approach - providing GMs with multiple sources of information and allowing them to plan, play and organize the game how they wish.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25026

[shadzar]

This wish has already been granted!

The ones in the FG store yeah, mostly (havent sen every product in there run yet, but have seen a LOT). but any NOT in the store, which there is how many adventures on DMs Guild as FG modules? not so much that ALL have a DM map for each map.... and the other VTTs... good luck getting them to do it.


hopefully FGU will have the built in GM layer that prevents the need for double maps and the GM information can just be placed on a layer the players never see. One of the biggest draws for ANY VTT is that ability for the GM to see one thing, and the players see something else, so you have those notes right there during play without having to flip back and forth between pages or "windows".


Also hopefully FGU will allow that GM layer to be on top of the map layer but under the tokens layer so a GM doesnt have to wonder if they can "click through" GM notes to be able to get to tokens to move them, or ahve the GM layer locked an only visible but not able to interact with it unless it is unlocked for "editing".

but we will all hear about more FGU features... Soon(TM) :p

(and.... FGU release date just got pushed back another 3 months...)

[Trenloe]

The ones in the FG store yeah, mostly (havent sen every product in there run yet, but have seen a LOT). but any NOT in the store, which there is how many adventures on DMs Guild as FG modules? not so much that ALL have a DM map for each map.... and the other VTTs... good luck getting them to do it.
So, it’s some developers in DMs Guild not doing a thorough job, rather than FG not being able to provide a GM and Player map.

So the aforementioned "bunch of other people" are not actually wishing for FG to be able to do both a keyed DM map and an unkeyed player map (because FG can, and does do that) they are just wishing for the occasionally third-party product, outside of FG's long list of DLC, to do a little more dev work and include such maps.

This has no reflection on the capabilities of Fantasy Grounds.

A GM can always add their own such map as well - expanding on a purchased module (or their own) to include all the relevant reference material they feel they need to run their game.

[Myrdin Potter]

The adventures I have converted on DMs Guild all have a DM Map and a Players map. I do that any time the material I am converting have both (sometimes there is no player map, only a keyed DM's map and I need to make a player's map the best I can).

However, material not on the Smiteworks store does not go through the Smitewoks QA process and program capabilities have increased over the years, so older material may not have everything a newer conversion will.

Since FG and Roll20 are two different products with two feature sets and UI, common tasks will be done in different ways. I think this thread has shown way to approximate what the original poster has asked for. There even is an extension that adds more than one layer as well if that is the approach you like.

[shadzar]

So, it’s some developers in DMs Guild not doing a thorough job, rather than FG not being able to provide a GM and Player map.

So the double standard for the "fanbois" etc and hypocrisy about "not picking apart single parts of a post" Moon Wizard mentioned elsewhere, only goes for "users" not Moderators?

You clearly quote a prior complete sentence from me, but failed to fully read that sentence and just choose a few words to zero in on and cherry-pick to argue about something. Which is normal around here from the moderators, as well the "fanbois", as they were dubbed previously by an "Ultimate license holder" that i am borrowing the term from, because it is most appropriate.

[shadzar]

However, material not on the Smiteworks store does not go through the Smitewoks QA process

I think this is the sad but true part, that people wish could happen, but in no way possible to force through DMs Guild and other offerings. same could be said for the other VTTs as well. the lack of QA and quality control, since they can't control them. people always dream for a working standard though, even if it is a pipe dream. :)

[Zacchaeus]

Will everyone please stop rising to shadzar’s bait. I’m sick of seeing these pointless arguments.

[BrettM]

Since FG and Roll20 are two different products with two feature sets and UI, common tasks will be done in different ways. I think this thread has shown way to approximate what the original poster has asked for. There even is an extension that adds more than one layer as well if that is the approach you like.

Certainly two different products, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts on how they handle this in FG -- either placing tokens, or an encounter pin, or multi-map view, etc. My thanks!



hopefully FGU will have the built in GM layer that prevents the need for double maps and the GM information can just be placed on a layer the players never see.

Purely based on how I've played in past, that would be my wish too -- all info on one map, where all info is available to the GM, and can be shared with the players as needed. However, Roll20 has it's faults as well, and there will always be pros & cons, and compromises, between different toolsets.

Thanks again to all!

[Trenloe]

So, it’s some developers in DMs Guild not doing a thorough job, rather than FG not being able to provide a GM and Player map.
So the double standard for the "fanbois" etc and hypocrisy about "not picking apart single parts of a post" Moon Wizard mentioned elsewhere, only goes for "users" not Moderators?

You clearly quote a prior complete sentence from me, but failed to fully read that sentence and just choose a few words to zero in on and cherry-pick to argue about something.
Oh, you talk about hypocrisy! I don't think you know what that means. But, if you need a good example - just look at your post. You complain about "picking apart single parts of a post" and how do you start said post? You quote one single sentence from me, out of context as you then do nothing to actually refute that comment, but complain about people just picking apart single parts of a post. Which is exactly what you just did.

I did fully read your sentence, and the others following it, which were very clearly saying that FG doesn't/couldn't provide keyed DM maps and unkeyed player maps - with your next sentence going on about the desire for a keyed DM map and a reference manual to see what things are on the map - which is exactly what FG (and it's products) provide. I presented clear and detailed information on this - mainly for the OP to see what is possible and not be swayed by your clearly inaccurate information.

In addition, if you (to use one of your phrases) "fully read" the post from Moon Wizard that you mentioned , you'll see that he goes on to essentially say leave the moderation to moderators. Which is exactly what I'm doing - moderating clearly incorrect and misinformed comments on these forums. And I will continue to do so.

[Moon Wizard]

We've reached the conclusion of this thread, I think. Closing for now. Please open a new thread, if you have more questions.

Regards,
JPG