Problem with the Facing of Round Tokens

[demonsbane]

I wonder if there any method for managing the facing of round base tokens (with 2d graphic as photographs inside), other than revolve them with the middle mouse buttom.

I don't like this revolving solution because for showing facing, the tokens ends each one in disparate positions. A few upright, other down-side, and more weird variations. This looks graphically bad and also is baffling for the viewers.

While this is perfect for tokens emulating miniatures from top side view (such as Devinnight's), I find this very bad for handling facing with round tokens.

Anyone knows a solution? I don't want my round tokens gone mad in my maps!

I guess in d20 games facing isn't an issue (because it doesn't exists!) but yes, it is if some of us want to play other RPG system (GURPS) with this software.

PS: MapTool has a nice implementation, consisting in making the round token's facing editable with a right mouse click. Then appears a mark in the token denoting its actual facing (what do you like). With this option there are no need of rotating weirdly the round tokens.

[Ged]

Three options come to mind: 1) have a second token immediately beside the first denote the facing, 2) put a directional token (such as the arrow in the default set of tokens) near the token and rotate it, or 3) just place a pointer - meaning the arrow drawn with both left and right mouse buttons pressed (or an area of effect arrow from the pointers menu) to denote facing. Not perfect, but maybe graphically less annoying....

[Toadwart]

Had similar problems when I first started and uses a round token with the characters portrait in the middle and a black and white arrow ion the edge. Worked ok but the portraits sometime were hard to identify when rotated. I use devins top-down tokens now so no longer worry about this ;)

One idea:
Create some 'generic' round tokens with something like an arrow or dot on the edge to indicate facing. The tokens can be labelled with by dragging some text (the characters name) onto the token and that text pop us if you hover the mouse over the token (I think dragging the PC portrait over the token works too)
If your players religously use a set color for their dice then colored tokens would help to quickly identify the player.

Grey/checkeboard/polka-dotted tokens could represent enemies...

[demonsbane]

Thanks both of you for the answers.

Ged, I find your devised solution as the only viable for my Fantasy Grounds games, but the inconvenient is the two independient tokens (the actual token and the "facing small token", as the small directional or pinhead token) creating a more clumsy handle of the tokens: first mouse-drag the token, second mouse-drag the facing-token (and rotate it if it is the directional token) and then place it alongside the portrait-token...

Besides this, the arrow pointer is for me really clumsy for this use (not for other uses of course), because it tends to hide below the character token and then again the issue is clumsy to handle.

At the end, I'm going to try this, but frankly I'm not very convinced. Really I wish this could be a issue implementated with Fantasy Grounds, rightmouseclick over the token and a facing option.


Toadwart: I'm happy knowing Devinnight's tokens are good for you. Indeed, a lot of them look very good, really! (*). Then you don't have my problem :cool: because you can do all imaginable facings.
About your solution regarding the facing problem of my portrait-style tokens, I find it is in principle good but having a portrait and then a larger rotating base for the portrait token as two separate tokens is going to create havoc in my interface for clumsiness in handling all these separate pieces. The idea is good but the app doesn't let to carry it well to the practice. The thing is a bit similar to Ged solution in the sense of handling this with separate token pieces...
Regarding to making generic round tokens with a name linked but without image, I don't like that solution because precisely I want the images of the tokens :) But thanks very much anyway.

(*) Nevertheless, for my current style of roleplaying, IMHO figurines/sprites as tokens contribute to over-emphasize the boardgame aspect of RPGs over the storytelling aspect, while again IMHO a portrait-"photograph" aids more to unconsciously link a background and personality inside the token on the board.

As a show of the issue and possible solutions, here are two images. What do you prefer?:


Facing of portrait style tokens with MapTool.
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/MapTool1.jpg


Facing of portrait style tokens with Fantasy Grounds. Of course, hexes here are part of the background JPG.
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/FantasyGroundstryofofferfacing.jpg



Greetings,
Demonsbane

[dLANbandit]

Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't a toke that is like the large triangle eliminate your visual look arguement?

Don't get me wrong I do hope that in the future there is more work done to make tokens more like an object with a series of images possible based on its state instead of just a picture placed to scale.

I was hopeing that the scripting would allow tokens to have script describing how the token displays itself.

[demonsbane]

Hello dLANbandit:

I think the problem with another token visually imitating Maptool's "facing large yellow triangle" is the same that the problem already described about the directional token in my earlier post.

Your idea is still is a second minor token to handle besides the main token (the portrait style token), and this is a bit unwieldy. If we add to this the need of manually rotating the very token for denoting the facing, this is more mork than for a pinhead token, exactly the same issue as with the directional token (the small arrow) Fantasy Grounds incorporate by default and already mentioned by Ged.

Besides this, as you can see in MapTool image, the "facing triangle" is inside the portrait style tokens. If we try to do this with Fantasy Grounds, at least a half of the times we are dropping the "facing triangle token imitation" into the portrait style token we are handling, the facing token will fall bellow the portrait style token (at a non-visible layer), being overlapped by the main token and hence becoming invisible. You need then to remove the main token for seeing the small facing token hiding below and manually rearrange again both tokens hoping better luck... Really unwieldy, because requires a lot of random attemps to make the thing working each time.

This issue of the small facing token falling below the portrait style token is the reason why, as you can see in the attached images, I put the small pinhead tokens aside the portrait style tokens, but inside the corresponding hex.

Nevertheless, perhaps I'm the one missing something. So if you have any other comment or more about this let me to know please.

Greetings,
Demonsbane

[dLANbandit]

So far we have this list of not quite ideal ideas.
1. Tokens next to tokens. Unwieldy.
2. Tokens on top of tokens. Hard to keep the one you want on top.
3. Facing on the token thus getting upside down tokens.
4. Drawing the facing on the map. Hard to update, as you can't clear one facing w/o clearning them all, or you can let the screen get cluttered.

It seems to me the only ideal solution is devnight's style tokens. However I think you said you didn't want to use those for some reason.

So the only solution I see is to kick back and wait on the developers to give you more flexible token options. And that is no solution at all for now.

Sorry I think you are stuck with substandard solutions or forking over some money for the time being.

[Snikle]

I would like to be able to group tokens, and be able to select them rather than just the mouse over the token automatically selects them. I would like it to be a click to 'acctivate' the token, perhaps a yellow/red glow around it, then spinning grouping etc could be selected by right clicking or something. Reason I would like to group would be for mounted combat, have a mount token, with a rider atop it or something.

[Oberoten]

What I'd love to see is something like the groupings in most RTS games. IE, you can select a group by dragging a square around them and then pressing a key combination. (Usually CTRL + 0-9) and then recall the group by pressing 0-9 and everything done to the group is also done on each individual. Mayhaps once the group is locked in, it'd also lock the order of the group? Possible for tokens to be in several groups?

IE : Mounts as Group 1, Riders as Group 2 and BOTH in group 3.

[Snikle]

Ah yeah that would be a good way to to do it. I second that idea.

[demonsbane]

(...) It seems to me the only ideal solution is devnight's style tokens. However I think you said you didn't want to use those for some reason.

So the only solution I see is to kick back and wait on the developers to give you more flexible token options. And that is no solution at all for now.

Sorry I think you are stuck with substandard solutions or forking over some money for the time being.

That is the thing, dLANbandint!

As you said, I can to use Fantasy Grounds with some "substandard solution" (pinhead secondary tokens for denothe facing) for running my GURPS games, while I wait and wait for the developers work until the release of some Patch 1.07c :)

Or I can to wait a while until the release of another Virtual Tabletop software offering options for handling tokens as I need to do.

Or I can to start my campaing right now using MapTool 1.1, but renouncing/leaving out some of the particular features making Fantasy Grounds unique.

Or I can to adquire some Devinnight's Tokens for my Fantasy Grounds GURPS Fantasy games, tokens not presenting problems about facing in this app (and in none, I think). "The problem" with Devinnight's tokens isn't an actual or technical problem as it is with portrait style tokens in Fantasy Grounds. Rather it is a subjective issue of personal preference along with a practical issue.

The personal preference issue is the one I tell yesterday: "Nevertheless, for my current style of roleplaying, IMHO figurines/sprites as tokens contribute to over-emphasize the boardgame aspect of RPGs over the storytelling aspect, while again IMHO a portrait-"photograph" aids more to unconsciously link a background and personality inside the token on the board.".
Please read unconsciously also as "natural" and "easier".

The practical issue about these tokens is the difficulty for creating oneself new similar and visually compatible tokens. Yes, in my games I often find I need more variety of tokens for special situations. This does happens to a lot of GMs and players. The idea of using a warrior token as blacksmith or as a beggar doesn't convince me, for instance. Nor using an ankheg for filling the role of a small dragon. Or a princess or female druid for representing a female child. So I always end with the need of creating more tokens, and this only can be done by myself. The very perspective of Devinnight's tokens-figures is IMHO very hard to create in a convincing manner (I like to draw and to paint, so I would love to have a Four Ugly Monster step by step tutorial for mastering the technique, although I doubt they would want to make us easy to achieve their little masterworks! LOL). Indeed, I tried to draw myself some tokens attempting to be visually compatible with some of Devinnight's, but I did achieve poor results and the time needed was long because my clumsiness working with that perspective. Indeed, I tried this perspective 9 years ago for doing my own cardboard tokens.

So, currently I prefer portrait style tokens because:
-With TokenTool (of RPGTools) you can to make your own portrait style tokens from a photograph, picture of your own choice or painted for yourself with a single mouseclick (really nice).
-The portrait style tokens containing mostly a painted of photographed face are IMHO more suitable to attaching a personality, a role playing character, and don't overemphasize so much the boardgame aspect of RPGs, letting more feel for the narrative aspect (all this IMHO of course).
-They are free.

Sorry for the extension! Really I'm interested in the subject and I don't mind to speak about it, but you aren't obliged to read all I'm writing here!

PS: although a bit out of the facing portrait tokens thread, Oberoten's and Snikle's ideas about the handling of tokens by the app are also good for me. In MapTool, you can to draw a selecting square (as in Windows desktop regarding icons) for taking tokens inside as a single selection. Then you drag-drop all selected tokens with a single mouse move-drop. But the selecting function of so many RTS (pressing 1-0 keys assigned to pre-selected units) isn't present.

[Ram Tyr]

I just want to say, that this feature, while useful, is not so important to me that I would want Smiteworks to focus their limited time on this. As has been discussed with other suggestions, there are many that could live without the requested change, especially when other areas recieve much more community support for change. For me, this particular issue has no legs, at least not until other requests are incorporated.

That being said, I do not want anyone to believe that I am simply being contrary. I have no doubt that demonsbane has a burning desire to see this request implemented. The only reason why I've posted this is because the Devs take note of our ideas. I do not want them to believe from general silence that everyone believes this is as important as is being portrayed in this thread. I just wanted another opinion on the issue to be heard.

Later.
Ramza

[demonsbane]

Hi Ramza:

This facing feature, you say, is not so important to you. Then surely you must be a d20 user. I understand if you want Fantasy Grounds remain being a D&D/d20system virtual tabletop app, then makes sense you judge as a waste of time the requesting of features D&D/d20system doesn't use, as facing, by part of other users.

But instead speaking only from our particular and biased interest, we take the viewpoint of the own app, what is better for Fantasy Grounds: to remain enclosed to the d20 market, or to start extending some of its functions and features to be useful to other non-d20 rpg gamers?

If the aim of Fantasy Grounds's developers is the app to be a generic online rpg virtual tabletop, allowing you to run your own choice of rpg system, then features as this are important. If it isn't for you, it could be for the app.

Since the very moment the app features boards and tokens, IMHO it is obliged to fully implementate the facing feature, as it is esential to boards and tokens (excepting the abstract system of D&D about that). Again, unless the idea is keeping the app confined to the d20 universe.

I have not a burning desire of this implementation. I can to surrender myself and to accept the fact Fantasy Grounds is a D&D/d20 app and myself go for other alternatives as Battlegrounds RPG, MapTool or others.
But it is a pity so pretty app so is Fantasy Grounds, having so much potential, will remain encapsulated to d20system failing to offer usability to other posible rpg systems when the thing would be so easy and so little demanding (at least in this particular case).

Non d20 users (if here are any!), non-d20 token portrait style users (BTW any GURPS user here?), can we to play with something as this?:

Current Fantasy Grounds portrait style tokens handle of facing
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/fgtryfacing.jpg

Anyway, I don't wish to mount a flaming discussion about this! If you guys wish to handle this as a poll, of course you are free to do, although I think I'm going to foretell the result, having Fantasy Grounds so many improvements in the waiting list, and being this (I think) mainly a community of d20 gamers with no token-facing needs.

Cordially,
Demonsbane

PS: Ramza, the silence you mention, I think it isn't providing me any support. IMHO it is plainly due we are in summer :)

[Adan]

IMHO the issue is clear. Definitely the current way Fantasy Grounds handles the facing of round tokens is a mess due to a lack of app support.

I think an improvement about it as MapTool has (it has been showed here upwards) would add to Fantasy Grounds at last usefulness to GURPS users, HERO System users... and more.

Regards,
Adan

[Griogre]

I currently play D&D 3.5 with FG so the lack of a facing indicator of some sort is not a big deal to me. However, it is true that many of FG's compeditors do have some way of showing facings on their tokens. Eventually, I would like to see something like this done.

To Demonsbane: There is a partial solution where the players can easily show facing. When the GM locks token movement, the player requests to move to a location by dragging a token to where they want to go. This draws a white line to the location where the player asked to go. The player can change his mind before the GM approves the move but dragging his token somewhere else which changes to where the white line is drawn. This white line could easily be used to show facing if the player just drew a short line toward the hex side he was facing. While this works fine for the players the GM can't do this because he always has permision to move. Still it may not be that difficult for SM to implement something like this where they could use the code for drawing of the "white line request move" as a base.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it there is no reason the players couldn't set their oponents facing by requesting to move the enemy token. Thus the players could actually set facing on *every* token using the request move method. LOL, only the GM could not show facing. :p

[mossfoot]

I believe in the simple and direct solutions myself. So what I did was create some new tokens, about the same size as the numbers, in solid primary colors, representing figures from a top down view - their right arm symbolically held out as if holding a weapon.

I call them my "Risk" tokens, because they look like very simple plastic game pieces.

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/mossfoot/StarWars001.jpg

Nothing fancy. But effective!

[Sigurd]

I think the clarity of Token Facing is mostly a matter of clear tokens. Witness that artsy top down tokens are clear but round circles need some identifiers.

Considering how many free graphics packages there are out there, I don't really find FG's approach very limiting. A small modification to the png file and facing is obvious even on a round. If that level of abstraction doesn't work for you then go with very detailed tokens.

It would be nice if there was some sort of game board expansion to FG that would snap token direction to cardinal points or the directions on Hexagonal grids. Still, I'm glad of the flexibility of the mouse wheel and 360 degrees of rotation.

If you have too many tokens at once it becomes hard to keep track of no matter what. I can see using different coloured arrows added to the png file to denote, player, enemy, unknown. Might mean a little extra work for the DM but I think its probably worth it.


I'd like to see some better management of formations. Or snapshots to preserve token layout and direction.

I'd also like to see them ditch the token bags for a browsable file folder model.


I like mossfoots little guys -- any chance I can download them somewhere to use myself?????


Sigurd

[Ram Tyr]

I also like mossfoot's tokens.

mossfoot, if you are going to make them available, you could ask Four Ugly Monsters (https://www.fouruglymonsters.com) to host them as a community created download. I'm sure they would put it up, and it would be a cool follow up to the generic character sheet that you and Toadwart worked on!

Great for warforged and other constructs! Future games could use these for cyborgs, androids, etc., all over! Creative.

Later.
Ramza

[mossfoot]

they're pretty easy to make, you know. ;) Two rectangles, a circle, erase the lines as needed, flood fill color, save, flood fill color, save different name, etc... ;)

But I'll ask if they're interested

[Sigurd]

You know I followed you as far as the second rectangle .....

:)

Sigurd

[dLANbandit]

our group just has a map up all the time, even if just blank with the group order layed out. That helps the DM and us prevent arguements about who is out front and who can be sneaked up on and what not.

However after combat starts the group order no longer matters as each person moves independantly.

I have always wanted a way to associate tokens with one another, so I could have an incapacitated version of my character, one with mount, one without, and easily right click on my token and switch between modes.

All that being said I think the grouping and my solution are extras for FG to work on long term with other 'extras' that have been suggested. However, I think the problem with round token facing is a simple fix but a real issue. Their is no graceful solution, but with our 'extras' there are ways to acomplish it already just with a bit more clicking than we like.

[demonsbane]

Hi Mossfoot:

I think your tokens are ok because they work for you. But seemingly they work exactly the same way as the aforementioned Devinnight's tokens (FUM), having a top down view (ingenious the diferentiation between right and left arm!), but with the difference of being absolutely schematized as the most primitive Sinclair Spectrum's graphics, for saying it so. That seems to me similar to the use of letters for tokens regarding graphic richness, but with rotation-for-facing incorporated due the perspective.

There are absolutely no problem with that and Fantasy Grounds does handle that tokens very well.

I think it is ok if you devise a solution for you handling of tokens, anyway. But that wasn't the subject of the thread. Anyway you are free to tweak a bit the direction of the thread for expressing your ideas, being all this related.
Nevertheless, I think we were talking specifically about the problem inherent to the use of round-portrait-style-tokens with Fantasy Grounds, for instance when we are trying to use the app for playing non d20 games. Games probably needing facing (true, not all...!).

Perhaps you did want to show we still can to use Fantasy Grounds despite that problem with the round-portrait-tokens, and you put here your solution as an example of how to do it. Of course we can to use Fantasy Grounds if we are willing to make some sacrifices.
But suggesting another type of tokens and/or another perspective, while it is appreciated, doesn't fix the problem: Fantasy Grounds lacks of the Facing feature for round-portrait-style-tokens.

The situation is all RPG virtual tabletop aplications I know have this feature. And Fantasy Grounds, despite its quality, don't.



(...) However, I think the problem with round token facing is a simple fix but a real issue. (...).

True. I insist: the fact is Fantasy Grounds currently seems to be the only RPG virtual tabletop lacking of this basic feature (excepting Gametable? I don't know for sure). Such a cool program needs to fix it to not remain behind of another apps in its board aspect and for offering support for another game systems other than d20.

Even OpenRPG, being free, has Facing and Heading features:

OpenRPG Facing
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/OpenRPG_Facing.jpg

OpenRPG Heading
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/OpenRPG_Heading.jpg


And Screenmonkey:

Screenmonkey Facing example, taken from the Lite version
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/Facing_Screenmonkey.jpg


Battlegrounds RPG in truth isn't behind them:

Battlegrounds RPG Facing with Square Map (taken from the beta-demo; Hexgrid support is implemented with the official release)
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/BattlegroundssquaremapFacing.jpg


Maptool round-portrait-style-tokens facing feature already was showed in earlier posts. As it was showed the thing we achieve trying to do this with Fantasy Grounds.


Greetings,
Demonsbane

[Azrael Nightstar]

I guess what it comes down to Demonsbane is that there are a number of different ways of handling token facing in Fantasy Grounds, but you don't really like them. The devs and users agree that tokens should get a reworking in the future, but at the same time, it's not a high priority. Your options are to deal with using a less-than-ideal method until then, or, if it's an important enough issue to you, finding an alternative program.

Personally I don't see this as being very important, in my game we use round portrait-style tokens and simply turn the top toward the direction they're facing. It may not be as pretty with them upside-down or facing left or right, but they're not art, they're just tokens. But again, that's a matter of personal taste. It's up to you and your group whether token facing makes or breaks your FG experience and, if so, you'll just have to use something else til the devs get around to this on their list.

[demonsbane]

Hi Azrael:

I esteem your interest for the thread.

I just keep showing in the forum the lack of an esencial feature of virtually all existent RPG virtual tabletops, despite the efforts of some persons to blur the objectivity of the problem.

The objective is simple to achieve: the images speak for themselves and the reasons are obvious.

The happy-with-d20-system-persons also are easier happy with Fantasy Grounds (currently intended mainly for d20), and I see many of them (not all, being honest) a bit lacking of objectivity because they are speaking from inside its personal satisfaction :)


I guess what it comes down to Demonsbane is that there are a number of different ways of handling token facing in Fantasy Grounds, but you don't really like them.

I think this isn't so. I explained in earlier posts there are no real way of handling facing of portrait round tokens in Fantasy Grounds.
Ok, we can to make a mayhem and insanely rotate the portraits as is displayed in one of the attached images... True, you are right in that thing doesn't like me, nor my players.
The only honest thing can be done about this is what Ged said: trying to put a small token along the main token for denoting facing, but trying to do this with Fantasy Grounds is a real pain for reasons already explained. Isn't a question of taste, but of not being practical nor manageable.
Isn't I don't like the "available options". The issue is really there aren't options.
If you are regarding Mossfoot's tokens as an option, I don't do the same because those aren't portrait style round tokens. There are very useful and working options (above all, handling facing by rotation) for tokens as Mossfoot's or FUM's, but that is all.

Returning to the theme, I find overwhelming the fact of Fantasy Grounds being the only software not having the facing feature -as it can be seen in the attached images of the thread. I think one can to live a bit more without the hexgrid feature (incorporating it oneself in a PNG or JPG map), but I find the lack of round tokens facing being too much impairing for non-d20 gameplay.
IMHO this lack of hexgrid and facing feature (and more things) is due this software was mainly created with d20 at view. I think such thing does no good at the end to the app.
At the other hand, is right to say Fantasy Grounds excels in another features in comparison with others virtual tabletops, and I think most of us agree with that. I love this program, but also acknowledge while I'm not playing d20 more and the app isn't going to offer basic tools for playing another game systems, I would love others too. In the past I did play some d20 games with Fantasy Grounds, but now I don't. Currently Fantasy Grounds isn't working for me, unfortunately. This does happens to more persons, not only to me.

Regarding your opinion, Azrael, about tokens not being art, here is mine about that: I think tokens sometimes can be some type of art, oh yes a personal interpretation. But they can be true portraits of great flavour and quality. The potential of computer images is great. Why to deny or limit it? I also try to create atmosphere with the handling of images, and doing a mess with the images sabotages my efforts.

BTW, it is acknowledged there are people choosing Fantasy Grounds for its visual "flavour". This "Fantasy Grounds feature" is a bit lacking in another virtual tabletops, as for instance the more tilted to "formulary aspect" OpenRPG. The visual aspect and visual potential is one of the things Fantasy Grounds excels, and we are living in the epoch of Super VGA, soon to be even upgraded (at least that is said!). So, I find inconsequent the efforts of some persons trying to reduce the importance of the visual-graphic aspect of tokens (part of the virtual tabletop app and gaming experience with the app) until the point of regarding it as almost worthless (or "wholly subjective", being the same claim but said with other more affected words) for intending to squelch my signaling of Fantasy Grounds needing the facing feature for portrait-artistic-round-tokens.

Not really a problem: one can to choose another virtual tabletop. But the Fantasy Grounds handicap of not having facing feature for round portrait tokens is real and undeniable. Perhaps for some of you it is not important, but the issue exists regardless it does affects you or not.

Nothing more for now.

Regards,
Demonsbane