FG Usage Statistics Q3 2018

[LordEntrails]

Doug! How could you share with Morrus before sharing with us?

https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654142-Fantasy-Grounds-Toolset-Usage-Report

https://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102399&d=1539626591

[Targas]

How does it work? Counting all Ultimate connections, running a loaded campaign for more than 5 minutes? Does it include GM prep sessions as well, or will it only count when player client‘s connect, too? What if prepping is done w/o network? Questions over questions...

[dulux-oz]

You know, what I'd like to see in addition to the game's played (& yes, I'm biased - reason for being so in 5... 4... 3...) is which Extensions get used - if its possible to pull up this info.

(My ego is running rampant at the moment - obviously I'd like to think that the DOE's would be at the top of the lists - or near the top, anyway).

But putting aside my ego, I think such a piece of graph-porn (as @Nylanfs puts it) would be useful for the FG Community to see and perhaps discover Extensions that they weren't aware of.

Anyone else agree? Or disagree, for that matter?

[Mortar]

How does it work? Counting all Ultimate connections, running a loaded campaign for more than 5 minutes? Does it include GM prep sessions as well, or will it only count when player client‘s connect, too? What if prepping is done w/o network? Questions over questions...

IIRC, prep sessions do not count. It only counts sessions where players connect via the server alias.

[Targas]

Understanding how those are calculated would bring those figures down quite abit.
E.g. 503k player connection sessions for 5E, divided by 12 months, divided by average of 5 Players, divided by bi-weekly playing would be 503k/12/5/2= 4191, rougly 4000 adventures played a month. Sounds different then 503000.

[JohnD]

I think those numbers are sessions not number of players connecting. So anything with 1 player or more.

[Moon Wizard]

As JohnD clarified, this is sessions, not players.

I’d have to circle with Doug to see the exact process if needed, but I believed we talked about only including sessions longer than 1 hour with at least 1 player in addition to GM. I could be off on the exact formula though, since it has been a couple years since I looked at.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

Also, my understanding it is only sessions that either use the alias or has a free player connect (therefore causing the session to perform an ultimate license check).

So, it does not include sessions of standard licenses only that use a direct IP address to connect.

[shadzar]

Understanding how those are calculated would bring those figures down quite abit.
E.g. 503k player connection sessions for 5E, divided by 12 months, divided by average of 5 Players, divided by bi-weekly playing would be 503k/12/5/2= 4191, rougly 4000 adventures played a month. Sounds different then 503000.

how many of those connections are reconnects because FG choked, a map wouldn't load, the books wouldn't load, etc, and the player had to leave and come back

or a ISP problem that caused internet drop-age and a reconnect was required?

you have to remove those outliers before doing the calculations on the 503k number. say 20% were reconnects for one reason or another as 1 out of 5 players had a problem loading something during the game then you are down to 400k before doing any of the math.

[LordEntrails]

how many of those connections are reconnects because FG choked, a map wouldn't load, the books wouldn't load, etc, and the player had to leave and come back

or a ISP problem that caused internet drop-age and a reconnect was required?

you have to remove those outliers before doing the calculations on the 503k number. say 20% were reconnects for one reason or another as 1 out of 5 players had a problem loading something during the game then you are down to 400k before doing any of the math.
They are not reconnects, they are sessions. So the only outliers would be when the GM ends the session (after it has been running long enough with players) and then restarts the session and it runs with players long enough to be counted a second time.

But, all this data is really only designed to show relative growth and comparison to previous data sets. It's not detailed enough to try and draw other comprehensive conclusions from it.

Note, the link I provided has more data than just the one graph I linked here.

[shadzar]

ok so ...

Session = GM started table of Game X with at least 1 player connected through alias for at least 1 hour?


so the only "reconnects" would be if the GM has to restart the table mid session?

hopefully that link has a glossary of what the terms mean :rofl:

[Andraax]

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/17/70/be/1770bed9bf8926c0c89abc07fffa2c4e.jpg

[Valatar]

I'm honestly a little sad to see 5E dominating that much when so many vastly better systems are doing a tiny percentage of its share. The fanmade rulesets are obviously at a marked disadvantage given that they take some work to install, but I would've at least expected Pathfinder to be a much larger chunk of the pie. On the other hand, it is nice to see Savage Worlds doing as well as it is, so there's that.

[damned]

I'm honestly a little sad to see 5E dominating that much when so many vastly better systems are doing a tiny percentage of its share. The fanmade rulesets are obviously at a marked disadvantage given that they take some work to install, but I would've at least expected Pathfinder to be a much larger chunk of the pie. On the other hand, it is nice to see Savage Worlds doing as well as it is, so there's that.

System preferences are just that - preferences.
5E on all platforms and face to face and online and in sales shows similar stats.
People vote with their wallets and their time.

[dulux-oz]

True, but I wonder how much of it is because of the perception that DnD *IS* Role-Playing, and Role-Playing is DnD.

In other words, everybody's heard of Dungeons and Dragons, while only some (most?) of those actually in the hobby have heard of the others - so new people naturally gravitate to what they know ie DnD, and its only those who have been around for a while play the other systems.

(And before anyone takes offense, I'm talking in general terms - yes, there will be exceptions, but I think the points I make are valid for a lot / a majority / most people, no?)

[Trenloe]

True, but I wonder how much of it is because of the perception that DnD *IS* Role-Playing, and Role-Playing is DnD.

In other words, everybody's heard of Dungeons and Dragons, while only some (most?) of those actually in the hobby have heard of the others - so new people naturally gravitate to what they know ie DnD, and its only those who have been around for a while play the other systems.
Maybe in some respects - probably for a lot of new people. For longer term role-players I know a lot who've played many different RPGs over the years and their go-to fantasy system is now D&D 5e, and it's what they mostly play (some exclusively).

[Targas]

In other words, everybody's heard of Dungeons and Dragons, while only some (most?) of those actually in the hobby have heard of the others - so new people naturally gravitate to what they know ie DnD, and its only those who have been around for a while play the other systems.
Wise words, of someone experiencing it in the past. :) Although I started in the 1970 where there were not much choice on ADnD, I would say the same. We started afterwards playing Midgard, Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Traveller, Powers&Perils, Runequest, Das Schwarze Auge, Harnmaster, ADnD2e, etc.
Only later we started playing DnD5E, Castles & Crusades, Pathfinder, and finally 13th Age. :P

I might be an exception, though. :D

[GunnarGreybeard]

My daughter is 20yo and when she or any of her friends recruit for players they always ask, "You wanna play D&D?" They find when they ask that but referencing other systems or even "You wanna play an RPG?", people act like they have no idea what they are being asked. As soon as they mention D&D, people are like, oh yeah I know what that is. To alot of them, it's all D&D but called by a different name.

[esmdev]

I started playing D&D with the original basic set (the one with B1 In Search of the Unknown) and AD&D was a pretty new thing. Over the decades I've tried a number of games in a myriad of genres. I've liked some better than others and certainly liked some better than D&D (any edition). My favorites being Rolemaster (RMSS), Shadowrun (2nd, 3rd), Traveller (My own homebrew) and Rifts (I've got a love/hate with the system).

What I have found, however, is that D&D is generally a constant. People might have heard of other games, but most of them know and play some version of D&D. One of the reasons that Pathfinder did so well is that deep down people see it as D&D and they never really tried to change that. It was the closeness to D&D that brought people in and kept them there.

You can get a group together and teach them a new game, but most people will compare it to D&D (unless they are simply learning a new game without having ever played D&D).

Most editions of D&D are pretty simple and quick to learn and Wizard's has done a lot to make sure this is the case.

Finally, at least where Fantasy Grounds is concerned, the 5E ruleset is simply superior in so many ways to the others I've tried, especially in terms of support. I've looked at some of the other rulesets, but my biggest problem with them is I spend a lot of time worrying that it won't be updated (or noticing that it hasn't been updated in years). An example: I bought D20 modern and was sad how behind the times it was, I've been looking at Savage Worlds but why spend money now when I know that it'll be obsolete in a few months and I'll have to buy again, Traveller is still waiting on starship implementation after months, Shadowrun is an edition behind, etc.

In contrast bug fixes come to 5E weekly, modules come out before you can buy on Amazon, and the system is well implemented and fully automated where it counts.

Just some thoughts...

[garrion_sw]

I agree with most of the sentiment here regarding the distribution of games. While I am not a 5e player or GM and won't ever be, it does seem to dominate the game market across the board from my perspective. As disappointing as this is for me personally, RPG growth across the board seems to be increasing because of it, which is good for the community as a whole. When I go to my FLGS to run games I always get the question, "Are you running 5e?" My answer is an emphatic, "No, but I am running [list of a multitude of other game systems and settings]. Would you like to try a demo of those, no knowledge needed with pre-gens ready for you - just like if you were at GenCon?" I get a shrug or if on forums I just get no other response.

So based on my experience, the numbers generated here seem to be right on par with what I experience away from FG - and the experience of other GMs I talk to. I believe it is simple brand recognition as others have pointed out. D&D is a household name (and for some generations/individuals a source of misunderstood stereotyping). Perhaps if there were an immensely popular streaming broadcast with professional actors playing Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller, etc., then we would see the popularity of those particular systems skyrocketing. I think that there are many GMs and players of a certain age and experience who would rather do another game system they like better but are simply settling for what they can find an audience for. I'm just a hard-headed peon though. So I'll live in my happy isolation, content to gather together whatever players I can who are willing to separate themselves from 5e.

Thanks for bearing with me through my rant. :)

[Mortar]

I started playing D&D with the original basic set (the one with B1 In Search of the Unknown) and AD&D was a pretty new thing. Over the decades I've tried a number of games in a myriad of genres. I've liked some better than others and certainly liked some better than D&D (any edition). My favorites being Rolemaster (RMSS), Shadowrun (2nd, 3rd), Traveller (My own homebrew) and Rifts (I've got a love/hate with the system).

What I have found, however, is that D&D is generally a constant. People might have heard of other games, but most of them know and play some version of D&D. One of the reasons that Pathfinder did so well is that deep down people see it as D&D and they never really tried to change that. It was the closeness to D&D that brought people in and kept them there.

You can get a group together and teach them a new game, but most people will compare it to D&D (unless they are simply learning a new game without having ever played D&D).

Most editions of D&D are pretty simple and quick to learn and Wizard's has done a lot to make sure this is the case.

Finally, at least where Fantasy Grounds is concerned, the 5E ruleset is simply superior in so many ways to the others I've tried, especially in terms of support. I've looked at some of the other rulesets, but my biggest problem with them is I spend a lot of time worrying that it won't be updated (or noticing that it hasn't been updated in years). An example: I bought D20 modern and was sad how behind the times it was, I've been looking at Savage Worlds but why spend money now when I know that it'll be obsolete in a few months and I'll have to buy again, Traveller is still waiting on starship implementation after months, Shadowrun is an edition behind, etc.

In contrast bug fixes come to 5E weekly, modules come out before you can buy on Amazon, and the system is well implemented and fully automated where it counts.

Just some thoughts...

The rulesets are all community developed and updated, CoreRPG and 5E being exceptions. Savage Worlds, Traveller, Castles & Crusades all have 1 developer working on them, in their spare time. No idea about the rest of the rulesets, but some are likely in need of a developer. A good chunk of the DLC available is made by community devs as well.

[esmdev]

The rulesets are all community developed and updated, CoreRPG and 5E being exceptions. Savage Worlds, Traveller, Castles & Crusades all have 1 developer working on them, in their spare time. No idea about the rest of the rulesets, but some are likely in need of a developer. A good chunk of the DLC available is made by community devs as well.

That is basically the point I was making. 5E is well supported and I don't have a problem spending money on it.

After purchasing RMC, Traveller and D20 Modern, I'm more reluctant to spend money on non-5E materials from FG. I bought Traveller the day it came out with the belief that it would be a functional, playable ruleset. It was months before basic fixes to important aspects were implemented and it is probably years from being completed with one of the most important parts of the game (starships) now where in sight.

The important part of commitment to a game system with FG is the knowledge that some update to the FG core systems won't kill the ruleset without a developer to update it. There are plenty of posts in the forums where 'there isn't currently a developer to update the ruleset' is the reply to why it no longer works. I totally understand that this happens in community development but that is my basic reasoning for not committing to a ruleset that isn't 100% backed by Smiteworks or developed myself. I also now know that just because it's for sale by Smiteworks doesn't mean it's actually supported by Smiteworks or will be anywhere near the capabilities and quality of the 5E ruleset.

[Targas]

Although the above on updating is true, it doesn‘t stop me from playing even a ruleset which is not complete. As I have to localize almost everything, and enter modules manually, because I think it is much better done the way I do it, there is not much use of the existing material for me. As such I can live with the core stuff being available. :D

[shadzar]

True, but I wonder how much of it is because of the perception that DnD *IS* Role-Playing, and Role-Playing is DnD.

a lot and it isnt for lack of trying. you have DNDBeyond showcasing Twitch personage AnnaProsser saying effectively everything is D&D, and due to them having only D&D category for so long you have the 90s being crapped on by streams like Roll4It right now streaming the new VtM in D&D category for that reason you mention rather than its own, and those people want to be D&D famous. little do they know the "Tabletop RPGs" category on Twitch is growing, so they are missing their target audience when people are looking in game specific categories.


those people like Roll4it, Encounter Roleplay and others that just lump every RPG into D&D are problematic in that way.

the excuse used "Well everyone knows D&D"... well teach them something else...

Big Mutha **** Crab Truckers is a looser "ruleset" that would be fast and easy to put into FG.. though it wouldnt be allowed on this website due to its name, but is more geared to other types of play be it beer & pretzels, or actual storytelling play.

Same goes for Mouse Guard, it has a much stronger story focus and design. Though these games would have no use for something like a "combat tracker" since they don't focus on combat, so might not even be a good fit for FG in the first place.

As they say word of mouth is the big thing and int he 90s you had 2 giants: D&D and Vampire/WoD
00's: D&D and Pathfinder
10s: D&D and people are confused about anything else.


Paizo finally got themselves some channels on Twitch to allow people not to be grouped int he wrong game so can play with people who will NOT bash Pathfinder as "inferior" to 5e, but still others mispalce the game in D&D so it is a fight to get people to understand not all games are the same.

Remember the Nancy Grace on Fox News thing where a couple inherited money from a dead relative and neglected their child to play World of Warcraft? Nancy blamed it on D&D while they actually showed the computers with WoW on the screens.

People just can't be bothered to learn and want to over generalize things sadly.

Then others just don't care because they want to be "D&D famous". they need the name D&D for attention to themselves, not as a way to help people find the right game for what they want to do when as the chart shows, SO MANY game exist that do SO MANY things in different ways, and allow for such a broad spectrum of playstyles but everyone shoehorns everything as "its D&D".

D&D has become the next Jello, and Xerox. so for all the posturing of "protecting the brand" the Pirate Bay thing did for removing access to any D&D PDFs that has since been reversed through the use of ONEBOOKSHELF, it didn't do a thing to "protect the brand" only the income stream. And they [HASBRO/WOTC] are happy with the falsified numbers coming fro Twitch saying "X streams of D&D" when half are other companies games, because it boosted their mental awareness for the game, and its "visibility" while defrauding shareholders, and anyone else they present those numbers to as any sort of valid data. Hey it brings them more money, so why not let everyone say everything id D&D since it draws them firs to it as he "gateway game".

but how do you fix it? how do you get the masses that watch this misnaming of things on Twitch or Youtube or other social media to sue the right name? How does a business compete with those same social media to get their game properly named in articles form blogs, twitters, etc so other games can get the exposure they deserve instead of being lumped into just "Oh its D&D"?

i would like to know, and i bet a few businesses would like to know how to destroy the 500lb gorilla so people will use a better term.

At least video games they use terms like "Its WoW" to describe MMOs (used to be "Its Everquest", but that game is past expired for many people.)

Whatever the largest "brand"/"franchise" is will be the defining name for all things of its type/genre.

[GavinRuneblade]

My daughter is 20yo and when she or any of her friends recruit for players they always ask, "You wanna play D&D?" They find when they ask that but referencing other systems or even "You wanna play an RPG?", people act like they have no idea what they are being asked. As soon as they mention D&D, people are like, oh yeah I know what that is. To alot of them, it's all D&D but called by a different name.

This reminds me of trying to order Pepsi in Mexico and having to tell the waiter "un Coca Pepsi por favor" or "One Coke-Pepsi please" because most of the places I visited called everything "coca" not pop, soft drink, soda, etc.

I can imagine asking, hey wanna play "dnd-Vampire the Masquerade" or "dnd-Teenagers from outer space"? I also think that "RPG" today mostly means a video game, not actual roleplaying.

[LordEntrails]

One thing to keep in mind, is the growth of D&D in the last ~5 years has been tremendous, and I think one of the driving reasons is the accessibility of the system. Not just that it's available online, in-stores, etc, but that the rules are easy to understand. That you don't need to invest much time or money to get a "competitive" or nearly maximized character. With some systems like 2/3.5/PF there are so many books, options and details that to a casual player, it is overwhelming and unnecessary.

Also remember, that in the same time frame, the percentage of non-males in D&D has gone from something like 10% to 40%. I'm pretty sure that other systems have not seen that type of diversification. So, though maybe 5E isn't the ideal system for many of us, it is the system of choice for many.

[esmdev]

One thing to keep in mind, is the growth of D&D in the last ~5 years has been tremendous, and I think one of the driving reasons is the accessibility of the system. Not just that it's available online, in-stores, etc, but that the rules are easy to understand. That you don't need to invest much time or money to get a "competitive" or nearly maximized character. With some systems like 2/3.5/PF there are so many books, options and details that to a casual player, it is overwhelming and unnecessary.

Also with the dmsguild.com now having all the older editions people are coming back to D&D because the edition that they like is back.

I remember when 2nd edition became accessible again I bought it just so I could pull out my old Birthright boxed sets. It works so much better with 2nd edition. Is it weird that I still had my Birthright books but not my 2nd edition books, yeah, it is. :)

But I can see a lot of people coming back because the D&D they like is now available. Oh, the D&D Cyclopedia … another system that I really dig.

[shadzar]

Also remember, that in the same time frame, the percentage of non-males in D&D has gone from something like 10% to 40%. I'm pretty sure that other systems have not seen that type of diversification.

i am not sure that matters except to those trying to make political distinctions. during the 90s it was a clear fact that more females were playing Vampire as a LARP than any that were playing tabletop games, because it offered more of what they, at the time, were looking for. Which is possibly, tied to a new subset of gamers in the "storytelling" avenues.

D&D is still the same combat ruleset in each edition, just those wanting to use it as storytelling time with little to no combat has grown, rather than the other types of plays have dwindled.

o more people learning they could pay how they wanted wold b the more determining factor in they didn't get forced into a playstyle by some vocal majority and feel free to explore other playstyles, denouncing the ONETRUEWAYISM purists that claim this or that or "D&D cannot be played without a DM" nonsense.

It had been prevalent in other games and system, and just now moving over the D&D and tabletop games in general from other places.

While there is still female tabletop gamers that just want to hack and slash and play things like Blood Bowl, instead of Hello Kitty Princess.

The contributing factors will be hard to pin down in any case other than larger visibility as the internet grows and is used more. Think if you had today's networking capability back int he 70s how the Jack Chik movement would have been different?

it is sort of like the dotCOM bubble is still slowly ever expanding still and the ripples on the edges are affecting more and more things as time goes on and more people are connected or introduced in large swatches to more things. Would be interesting to see a study that doesn't dismiss the internet's influence on changes in modern activities and think past eras prior to the internet had the same potential.

Also maybe the females were always there, just didn't want to be known for it in the past? Only those females can answer if that is the case for themselves.

[damned]

I have a vested interest in several systems other than D&D and still I will play/run D&D at least 65% of the time.
I will also run/play Call of Cthulhu, Trail of Cthulhu, City of Mist, Dungeon World, Pulp Action, Esoterrorists, Star Wars, Savage Worlds and other stuff.
If all of those were equally weighted then each would get under 4% of my time after D&D.

And the point about Pathfinder being D&D is very salient. Its not just pathfinder - its also all the other versions of D&D.
D&D is so big and so dominant - in sales, in games played, in mind share - that it may as well be the market.

Is it an issue? Only if you are a publisher of another system!
As D&D has grown so has the market as a whole.

[Myrdin Potter]

I am a Hasbro shareholder. Go! Go! D&D! :-) (it still is a rounding error for them)

[Andraax]

(it still is a rounding error for them)

I remember one year, at Origins, having a late night BS session that included some people from WotC. This was back in the 3.5 days, IIRC. One of them told a story that illustrates the difference between WotC and Hasbro philosophy. He said that a pre-order sale for an upcoming book had just finished and they were looking to get like 35,000-40,000 pre-orders. They ended up with like 70,000 pre-orders and he was ecstatic about it, and went to his new Hasbro boss with the good news. His boss' response was something like "If we aren't going to sell a million copies, why are we even bothering to produce it?"

[shadzar]

I am a Hasbro shareholder.

i dont think D&D will offset the HASBRO numbers in any way considering their recent layoffs of "single digit percentages" of the 5000 global HASBRO employees... or the claims of securities fraud and such from officers of HASBRO...

that rounding error could be something that could make money IF HASBRO would sell off the property and focus on things that are more than rounding errors they can focus on rather than lcienses they either don't understand or things they just want to profit off the brand of.

But this gets into non RPG territory that has nothing to do with the chart.... Unless they decide to sell off the D&D property.

[Manchine]

Doug! How could you share with Morrus before sharing with us?

https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654142-Fantasy-Grounds-Toolset-Usage-Report

https://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102399&d=1539626591

I would like to know what the percentages now if possible? I saw one months ago but I can't find it.

[LordEntrails]

I would like to know what the percentages now if possible? I saw one months ago but I can't find it.
They are now posted to ddavision's blog page. Latest usage stats are the third one down here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/blog.php?15332-ddavison

EDIT: see Trenloe's response. Obviously their is a new new way :)

[Trenloe]

I would like to know what the percentages now if possible? I saw one months ago but I can't find it.
Site Search -> search for usage statistics, sort by "date" will give you access to all of the usage data posts. Here's the latest: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/reports/2020Q4/

[Manchine]

Site Search -> search for usage statistics, sort by "date" will give you access to all of the usage data posts. Here's the latest: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/reports/2020Q4/


They are now posted to ddavision's blog page. Latest usage stats are the third one down here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/blog.php?15332-ddavison

EDIT: see Trenloe's response. Obviously their is a new new way :)

Thanks for the info both of you!