Dealing with certain characters.

[Jaystewy]

I have some issues with some of my PC's when it comes to death of their characters, one of the most of all. I'm trying to be more of a, its your character, kind of DM. I'm unsure what to do about someone who creates a character with no fear of death. (i.e he killed himself in a tent he set on fire) just so that he can create a new, more OP, character. I'm trying to stay away from forcing him to continue his character, but I also feel there should be some consequences from making new characters whenever you feel like you want to. He is an experienced player, but has no fear of his character dying due to know he can just create a new one. Any help with PC's like this would be great. I've thought about, forcing new characters to start at level 1, but that is going to negatively effect everyone and not just him. I'm just trying to get him to care more for his character to want to keep him alive and not commit seppuku whenever he wants to make an OP character for chapter or two of the campaign.

[esmdev]

How about tell him if his character dies due to his action or is in some way caused by some dopey choice he makes his next character starts with strait 10s plus racial bonus.

[jasonthelamb]

I think this is one of those "talk to your player" moments. You are the DM, and you can just say... "well, since you did this - you start with ___________ instead". You can do WHATEVER you want, that's the great part about being the DM!

[Atua]

This is a player issue, not a game issue and as such should be handled outside of the game. I would sit down with him outside of the game and discuss his reasoning for doing this and find out what he really wants out of the game. With this sort of behaviour, it looks like he is not really invested in the story as the new character has to get up to speed and does not feel invested enough to stay alive to help with the party goals.

Politely explain to him that this sort of behaviour detracts from the game and, you as the DM's enjoyment of the game. If he doesn't want to change his behaviour maybe you need to seriously think about playing without him. I get the feeling he is only in it for the combat, like this is some sort of computer game.

[Serafyna]

How about tell him if his character dies due to his action or is in some way caused by some dopey choice he makes his next character starts with strait 10s plus racial bonus.

I personally feel like this would be an unfair penalty, despite the player's constant re-rolling of new characters. I find that outright saying to someone that "If you kill your PC again, I'm essentially taking control of the new one's creation" - that'll only make them hate you and the new PC, I think. Try talking to them first, and explain how you feel. Maybe that'll fix the issue before any punishments or penalties need to be brought in? In the F2F group I play with, we have several people (myself included simply because I wanted to test other classes) who re-roll new characters every so often. One of the others does it because the story threads either kill his characters prematurely and we keep running out of scrolls of revivify, with no one in the party knowing the spell, or the story plot means that character has to leave the party. Again, I merely did this, as I was still new to the system and wanted to try the other classes (I've only managed to officially play as 5 classes across 2 campaigns, plus a one-time 6th for a school one-shot battle royale)

The other player who constantly rolls up new characters does it on purpose - at first it was because his character died. Big deal. His second character was killed in glorious battle, I think. But the 1st & 2nd knew the 3rd character, who eventually turned out to be this toxic, hates-the-world, insufferable a$$hat who was on some loner revenge quest. So A-kun (let's call him A-kun for now) purposely kills this character off in the Fey Wilde during the Wild Hunt! all because he was unhappy with how he was playing him. Enter the 4th character; a Tabaxi Rogue who gets dropped into said Fey Wilde, and only has a love for gold. Well.
This did not align with the party's goals. Add in some player meta-gaming in the form of the dead jerk's harpy niece being raised by the parents that threw him away for being a 1/2 elf instead of full high-elf (a neice that he's never met!); said 1/2 elf Bloodhunter somehow knowing a little bit of everything about everything, also he hasa been all over the world in his short 22 years of life; the Tabaxi somehow becoming unselfish and leaving all his equipment to the mysteriously resurrected jerk character that no one remembers (because laws of the Wild Hunt and Fey Wilde); and said newly-resurrected character trying to insinuate himself by making mentions of the party's Big Bad Enemy and the bag of holding he had entrusted to the party's leader, thus digging himself into a grave of "We don't trust you, especially since you said yourself that you were an a$$hat to everyone and made a deal with the Big Bad." Where was I going with this?

Oh yeah. Needless to say, every time one of our group had to roll a new character - be it because of a death, story related plot, or a character's suicidal tendencies - the newly made character was made up at the minimum party level (currently that's 9th, among a party ranging from 9-13th levels), and only gets the basic equipment available to the class (as we don't really focus on the backgrounds, since we run anywhere from 6 to 12 players at once.... poor Fernie, no wonder he split the party...)
Honestly, though, the 'punishment' is entirely up to you. You do have rights as the DM/GM, and you shouldn't let this player bully you - because that's what this borderline is. They know they can get away with it without consequence, so they keep doing it, causing more work to be put on you trying to tie in the new characters. One of my current players (sadly we said goodbye to her today, as her play style differed from the rest of the group) said to me that, "Your happiness as the DM is just as important as the players. You should have as much fun DM'ing us as we do playing." That hit me - I constantly worry, both as a fairly new DM and just my personality in general, that the people around my aren't having as much fun or enjoying themselves as they should. But how can they have fun, if I'm not having fun?
A miserable DM makes for a miserable table - don't be afraid to stand up for yourself! If it turns out that this player needs to be kicked from the group because they aren't respecting your rights as a DM, then maybe they weren't meant to be at your table - no matter how long they've been playing. I hope this helps.

[Temmpest]

Why not have the party raise the character from the dead? There are a variety of ways to get this done.

[Serafyna]

Why not have the party raise the character from the dead? There are a variety of ways to get this done.

A good example of this is Puffin Forest's video ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT9HgcufRQk

[LordEntrails]

As others have mentioned, this is a player issue, not a character issues, deal it with it out of character. If the player doesn't want to play the same type of game as everyone else, then ask the player to leave the group.

Sometimes people grow out of something. Even among friends, we are not always at the same place in our lives and interests. Maybe it's time for that player to take a sabbatical.

[esmdev]

I personally feel like this would be an unfair penalty, despite the player's constant re-rolling of new characters. I find that outright saying to someone that "If you kill your PC again, I'm essentially taking control of the new one's creation" - that'll only make them hate you and the new PC, I think. Try talking to them first, and explain how you feel. Maybe that'll fix the issue before any punishments or penalties need to be brought in? In the F2F group I play with, we have several people (myself included simply because I wanted to test other classes) who re-roll new characters every so often. One of the others does it because the story threads either kill his characters prematurely and we keep running out of scrolls of revivify, with no one in the party knowing the spell, or the story plot means that character has to leave the party. Again, I merely did this, as I was still new to the system and wanted to try the other classes (I've only managed to officially play as 5 classes across 2 campaigns, plus a one-time 6th for a school one-shot battle royale)


As opposed to a player who is literally taking control of the campaign by sidelining it every time he wants to switch out to something that would be optimal for whatever the next game section is? If someone did this in my game they'd be vote off the island by the players, I wouldn't even need to do anything. Fortunately my group has been together for over 20 years so everyone knows what to expect from everyone.

The original poster said that is what he is doing. Lighting his own tent on fire to change a character to be over powered for the next section of the campaign.

He asked for an option to provide incentive to continue to play the original character without demanding he roll a new level 1 character so as not to overly hurt the rest of the group. The player is not just rerolling to try out new classes, he is rerolling to be awesome min-max optimal for a specific segment of a campaign. I'm assuming that he is also the kind of player that reads or has play the games several times in order to know what he needs to be to do this (though I cannot be sure this is the case).

[Targas]

During Pen & Paper times when Players rolled their new chars mid-game, for us they could just rejoin next session. You know, GM checking if the player did create his char right, finding a suitable opening to bring him back into the game. If your player misses your gaming session, because of intentionally creating a new one just because of optimizing, he might feel stupid missing half of the fun. As well of being inpolite to the other gamers and generating more effort for the GM to switch between group sizes and matching encounters, there is no sense in utmost optimizing, as it will just increase the overall difficulty level for the whole group.

[shadzar]

i dont see much of a problem here. Hack and Slash is a viable playstyle. it just doesn't seem to fit with your group, and you might jsut need to openyl discuss with the whole group if thee is a problem fromt he other players with this no fear player.


if the other players have no problem with it, then you shouldn't. it isnt YOUR game as a DM, it is the players.

you mention some do this, so that must be their preferred playstyle. maybe you are not a fitting DM for what they want since you want something els,e and shold offer someone else a chance to DM?


Either way you all need to discuss your ideas as a whole group and see what people are looking for out of the game. Then you will be able to figure out what is ging wrong.


It could just be people tired after long day and jsut want to bash things, or maybe they are uninterested in the "story" (Princes of the Apocalypse for example loses many peoples interest with all its confusion), or maybe they just want to tabletop Diablo?

the best course of action is to take time and talk to everyone. if it seems you are the only person having an issue with this, then just go with what the players want out of the game. if you are unable to give the players what* they wan because it conflicts too much with how you can enjoy the game as a DM... well, then you might not be a good fit to DM for this group?


without more details, there is really nothing to go on but blanket suggestions or accusing each other of things when nobody may be at fault on either side of the DM screen. :confused:


*Note: a GM isnt a babysitter and required to give the players everything all the time, that defeats the purpose of a game, and just becomes "play" or becomes some Munchkin-fest, which not all DMs enjoy and that is understandable. all DMs are players too and have a right to have fun, but we must realize what are limits of likes and dislikes during games are over time. and no DM can have everything ready at the drop of a hat if the playrs want one thing and the only thing the DM has had time for is something else. Maps don't draw themselves, and NPCs create themselves, encounters don't budget themselves, etc. ;)

[celestian]

if the other players have no problem with it, then you shouldn't. it isnt YOUR game as a DM, it is the players.


I don't agree with this at all myself. Your players certainly have the choice of playing in a game they like (hack & slash or not) but the game is run by the DM and if he isn't having fun and he stops running it, it's gone. That certainly means it's his game. Even if he "hands off" DMing to another person, while he was running it, the game is his. That doesn't mean the players have no affect on the adventures choices, it just means w/o a DM there isn't a game. Let the players do what is within the system but there are also consequences.

If you want to run a RP heavy game I'd make sure to point that out in the blurb when looking for players. I wouldn't try to "make them change" to what you want tho. I tend go for RP lite and Action heavy games myself ;) I think these days we call them "beer and pretzel games".

If your group has been together for a bit you could try and get one of them to continue DMing the game you're running (heavy action) and then start another and make sure everyone is aware of the style it will be.

[Bonkon]

Good Day All :)
I would not have a problem with starting the char at level one with basic starting gear and having an NPC fill the void left by the, in my opinion, selfish player.

[shadzar]

No, and you misquoted before you cherry-picked a line rather than reading fully the note at the bottom.

The world is the DMs, the game is the players. The DM can create anything in the world, but when the players are sick of it, they leave; the DM then has no game, but he stil has his world.

You are almost bringing back the DM vs player argument with a slight twist.

a game doesnt exist without a DM (unless apparently it is Gloomhaven), but there is only 1 DM, and it is a thankless job because the players outnumber the DM.. its THEIR game. they choose to play it or not.

the game can go on without the DM that began it, and that may be to the enjoyment of the players, because it is THEIR characters, NOT the DMs. they can take those characters and continue the game without the DM and with another DM.

the players get to keep their game, and the DM gets to keep his world, he is just no longer apart of the players game at that point. and if such a DM wants to use his world again he has to do more work to get more players into it.

either side of the screen can continue without the other side and replace that other side and the "game" continues, but it isnt the same game if it is all new players and characters, only the same world. ;)

[Trenloe]

I don't think the OP even mentioned the style of their game. The issue is the player wanting to kill off a PC they no longer wish to play, and seemingly do this regularly so they have an optimized character for the next one or two chapter of the campaign.

"Hack and Slash" is an RPG style. It is combat centric. It doesn't necessarily mean that every PC in a hack and slash campaign is maxed out and the most efficient for that chapter of the campaign being played. In fact, a lot of enjoyment can be had from a hack and slash style campaign where the PCs are less than optimal. There's nothing wrong with a hack and slash game, if that's what you're after. But having issues with a hack and slash style player was not at all what the OP was asking.

[dulux-oz]

...it isnt YOUR game as a DM, it is the players..

I disagree. The power dynamics in any RPG lies firmly with the GM (see my last blog post for a more in-depth discussion) - without the GM there is no game, and with the current (and, some may argue, perpetual) shortage of GMs in our hobby a GM can always find players, whereas the players may not always be able to find a game (ie a GM) to play with. It is also the GM who has the most "ownership" in the game, being the individual who spends the most time, effort and money compared to any player, or even all (of the game's) players.

In relation to the OP's OP: its a player issue, not a character one. Talk to the player, explain to them why its a problem, and, ultimately, if the undesirable behavior persists, don't invite them to play with you any more - you can always find another player to take their place if that's what you desire. it *IS* your game, *YOU* are in charge, so don't put up with behavior that is unacceptable - after all, its your job to make sure that the group has fun - and that includes you as well.

Cheers

[Targas]

if the other players have no problem with it, then you shouldn't. it isnt YOUR game as a DM, it is the players.

Well, you asked for it... I disagree - partially. Same as Dulux-oz stated. It should be a game everbody enjoys. It sounds like a player issue, and I wouldn‘t mind asking a guest player to join as a possible replacement for any troublemaker. As a GM you can spend countless hours making a roleplaying session a refreshing. interesting experience. I seldom see Players spending much thought on their chars, but it‘s improving with all the adventures an adventurer will go through. So this player starting from scratch, will loose this immersion...
It definately helps motivating other Players to GM as well. It took me a year to bring my Players so far, but those who try enjoy to GM themselves (and understand the GM side better after being a GM themself.) Some don‘t like to GM, and it‘s not something for everyone. But to look over the edge and broaden the mind is a big step into better roleplaying, IMHO.

[JohnD]

I don't agree with this at all myself. Your players certainly have the choice of playing in a game they like (hack & slash or not) but the game is run by the DM and if he isn't having fun and he stops running it, it's gone. That certainly means it's his game. Even if he "hands off" DMing to another person, while he was running it, the game is his. That doesn't mean the players have no affect on the adventures choices, it just means w/o a DM there isn't a game. Let the players do what is within the system but there are also consequences.

Well said.

[shadzar]

I disagree. The power dynamics in any RPG lies firmly with the GM (see my last blog post for a more in-depth discussion) - without the GM there is no game

Really?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/247724/DD-Solo-Adventure-Citadel-of-the-Raven-Fantasy-Grounds

This is a Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition adventure designed for one level 3 player, without a DM.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBzE4_1D9l4
Part 2 -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMdEmgHsCkc

(I will be sure to let SmiteWorks employee, Rob2e, know he is playing D&D wrong, as well everyone that bought and enjoyed those games.)

and apparently it is the 3rd, meaning there are 2 others at least made for D&D 5e, and FG....

Shall i prove you wrong more?

https://www.tsrarchive.com/dd/dd2-bsolo.jpg
https://www.tsrarchive.com/dd/dd2-xsolo.jpg

and arguably all these can be played without a DM. https://www.tsrarchive.com/add/add-hhq.html

without a DM there is easily a game, proven with facts. that playstyle may not be your preferred playstyle, but others are [B]NOT required to use your playstyle as the only one they have to play by. ;)

[Trenloe]

(I will be sure to let SmiteWorks employee, Rob2e, know he is [by your standards] playing D&D wrong, as well everyone that bought and enjoyed those games.)

and apparently it is the 3rd, meaning there are 2 others at least made for D&D 5e, and FG....

Shall i prove you wrong more?

...

without a DM there is easily a game, proven with facts.
The facts? 5 solo adventures out of thousands of adventures published for D&D over the years. Way less than 1% - that's a statistical anomaly. It's laughable that you throw these out and think that this proves people "wrong more".

D&D is designed to be played as a group with a DM and players. Any solo adventures for D&D are produced to allow people to primarily play when they can’t get to a group - and they are basically pick-a-path books using the D&D system. Picks-a-path books have their place, and I’ve enjoyed many over the years. But I don’t class them as a role-playing game, and I definitely don’t see them as anything like a substitute for joining a DM to play with other players in the DM's game.

The "facts", as you put it, are that without a DM here would not be well over 99% of the D&D games played. And, it could be argued, D&D probably wouldn’t exist anything like it does today if it wasn’t for the hoards of DMs who made and ran the game for their players over the years - if they didn’t, there would not have been a game!

For the majority of DMs it is not a thankless task, it is something they do that they love and so they can play with friends (old and new) and enjoy creating a world and running a game that provides hours of enjoyment and social interaction. I actually feel sorry for you that your experience of the DM/Player dynamic makes you think that being a DM is a thankless task. That is far from my experience - I find running games for my friends incredibly rewarding and they are very thankful that I do. I’ve also been involved in many large RPGing societies and conventions and I can tell you that the vast majority of the players are very thankful and appreciative of the DMs who run games.

[esmdev]

Technically the authors of those modules are acting as DM by providing adventures that others can play. Without their effort there would be no adventure. Those solo modules provide the player the ability to play in someone else's adventure and gives options and direction.

You could play the game by just randomly rolling yourself a dungeon from tables in the DMG but then you would basically be both DM and player.

None of this really help the OP of furthers the topic.

[Andraax]

None of this really help the OP [or] furthers the topic.

Shadzar is not trying to help - he only hangs out here to sprinkle gasoline and throw matches...

[NineShadowEyes]

I would kick this yahoo right out of the group without hesitation. Simple. Done.

[JohnD]

Shadzar is not trying to help - he only hangs out here to sprinkle gasoline and throw matches...

**** posters gotta **** post.

[Bidmaron]

Shadzar, oh Shadzar.... right up next to the pyramids and what was before the Big Bang I have to wonder how someone who continues to espouse that he has no use for Fantasy Grounds continues to hang around. I used to think that your previously evidenced desire for FG to succeed outweighed your buttheaded-ness but you would try the patience of Job.
If it were possible, I would nominate you for community discharge. As in get the crap out of here. You have the audacity to accuse anyone here of Nolanism?????? Wow. That is just all I can say.
Sorry for my rant but I just cannot remember ever running into someone so bipolar and irritating before.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread; as it seems we've covered the initial post and beyond.

Regards,
JPG

[Trenloe]

For those that read this thread and are concerned that GMing may be a "thankless task", there is some great feedback from both players and GMs for the recent FG Con 13 put together by Fantasy Grounds College here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46152-FG-Con-13-Testimonials!&p=410692&viewfull=1#post410692.

GMing and playing RPGs is social interaction, just like with friends in "real life" (outside gaming) - don’t play with negative people, someone you don’t enjoy socialising with or people who don’t integrate well into the group. The above linked testimonials show that this is very possible. As a GM talk to your players if things aren’t going well and you’re not enjoying it - if there’s not a reasonable solution that you’re happy with then don’t be afraid to ask a player to leave, move on to another group etc.. Playing RPGs can be an amazing experience with the right people (just read some of the FG Con testimonials), so don’t waste your time with a campaign/group/individual player if it’s not working and you’re not enjoying it. Sure, make an effort and communicate - hopefully most people will be able to take constructive criticism and provide good feedback. But if it’s not working, don’t flog a dead horse.