I want my friends to get into Fantasy Grounds but they have their doubts [Archive]

LordEntrails

September 30th, 2018, 04:49

Welcome.

Your doc isn't actually too long, but I actually have a game I have to get ready for. (But still wanted to reply.)

A couple things;
- You'll want to step back a little bit from what you are used to (and so will your players) and try to adapt to the FG interface. Once you learn it, you will find that it is incredible powerful and well thought out. Agreed not the easiest to learn, but really well done for functionality.
- Yes the map is not the background, but having it as a window actually is quite powerful. Though you will find one of the biggest things to manage is screen real estate. To help manage that, use the window minimize and the hotkey bar to make it easy to pull up frequent windows etc.
- Get your player to use the hotkey bar too, especially for their actions so they don't need to go back and forth with the character tabs.
- Though things like Dodge are not automatically added to the actions, your players can add those if they want them. Either using the Rob Twohy effects coding packages from the DMsGuild or learning how to make your own actions and effects puts a lot of power in your players hands. They will love it once they learn it.
- Character generation in 5E is really powerful, but it is importan that you get the process, the order that you do things, down right. Their are videos and threads on the best process for doing so. Also note, FG add stuff when you level up, and automates a lot of it. But it removes nothing when you remove a level so it's not real good for playing with what ifs unless you understand each what if should be it's own character (character building is very fast once you know the process).

Also, check out the FG College, heck, either there or the FG discord channel you might even be able to find someone to walk you and your whole group through a getting started session.

dulux-oz

September 30th, 2018, 04:52

Hi AngrierTom, and Welcome! to the Community,

Let me also add this (it might help convince your guys :) ) - if you haven't done so already, let me encourage you to take a look at some of the great Tutorial Videos available on the Fantasy Grounds Wiki (and on YouTube). Damn's are good, as are Xorn's, and people seem to like mine as well (mine are also available from the links in my sig, below).

Start with the ones on the CoreRPG, because the CoreRPG forms the foundation of just about all the RPGs we play with Fantasy Grounds - so by learning how to use FG with the CoreRPG you'll learn about 80% of what you'll need to know to play any RPG with Fantasy Grounds. Once you've gone through the CoreRPG Videos you can then go on to Videos about your chosen RPG.

When you get familiar with the basic Fantasy Grounds product the next step is to check out some of the Extensions (Plug-Ins) for FG, such as the DOE: Sound (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?31369-DOE-Sound-Extension), DOE: Locations (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20794-DOE-Locations-Extension), DOE: Weather (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22142-DOE-Weather-Extension) and DOE: Organisations (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27169-DOE-Organisations-Extension) Extensions (to name a but a few - and a Shameless™ Self Plug).

You may also want to drop into the FG College (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40020-Join-Fantasy-Grounds-College-Learn-Fantasy-Grounds-learn-D-amp-D-and-then-play!); a great place for newcomers to get started.

And of course, there's plenty of Twitch Channels where you can watch games in progress (including my own - https://www.twitch.tv/dulux_oz - another Shameless™ Self Plug).

And keep on asking questions - we're a pretty friendly lot here, and we love answering questions.

Cheers

damned

September 30th, 2018, 05:18

some quick responses... and if any of them rub the wrong way my apologies

1. not wanting to take the time to learn a tool means you will never ever get the best out of the tool. thats pretty much the same with all tools. especially tools that can do a lot. dont short change yourself.
2. character creation in 5mins. open a blank sheet. name your toon. assign the basic stat array. drag on a background. drag on a race. drag on a class. drag on some equipment and maybe some spells. add some flavour. 5mins and you are done. sure this might not have been intuitive - see point 1 - but it is very quick and very easy.
3. why would you want the table as the map when everything else is covering the map all the time? ok - its a personal prefernce. but there are sooo many reasons why maps in windows have advantages. multiple maps open. maps not being behind other things, resize maps, link maps to notes, etc
4. how many pieces of paper, maps, books, printouts, post-it-notes and bookmarks do you have when you are playing at the table? every square inch is covered. for me the best way to handle screen realestate is to not keep every window open. Chat, combat tracker and current map. everything else i open when i need it and when i want to use something else i close this one first. i drag all the common things to my shortcut bars. i get to all my stories and encounters and items and treasure and encounters from the pins in the map. open it, use it, close it. it is far less clicks to close it and open it again later than to try and find it behind everthing else i have done since i last used it. it may sound counter intuitive. but it really works.
5. there is an awful amount of content on a D&D character sheet. some decisions have to be made as to how to organise that data so that it fits. remember also that your screen size and my screen size can be completely different. there is no point in a charcter sheet that needs a 4k screen to use when half the table are at 1080p or less. it will take you about one session to remember where things are. saves and checks, skills, actions. done. it is different to what you were doing before. just like using photoshop and gimp are different. just like word and docs are different.

ultimately - changing between software platforms requires a willingness to learn and explore. change is hard. im sure there are things that are not intuitive or dont work well in whatever other platforms you have tried. every platform has its strengths - and weaknesses. if you do take the time to learn this platform I think you will appreciate its power - and its quirks.

either way - keep gaming and having fun.

Valarian

September 30th, 2018, 06:41

would have had to waste my time reading the manual for how to use this program.
Reading the manual is never a waste of time. It shows people who you ask questions of that you've some initiative and a commitment to learn. Always read the manual and review training materials before you start asking questions. Certainly before starting to criticise. It's showing courtesy to the developer of the tool, and to the people you ask for help.

Do you expect to be able to run a game using a new system without reading the rulebook? Same thing.

JohnD

September 30th, 2018, 06:46

I read your document.

Yes, FG assumes you know how the rules work. It's a virtual table top not the next iteration of a basic game app for your phone, or a "just mash the buttons" game on the PS4 or whatever, nor is it the next iteration of Neverwinter Nights. You're not going to get a popup asking each player whether they want to talk to the villager or try to rob him in the middle of the street in broad daylight with 50 witnesses (thank Skyrim for that one). Also, if you use Effects to their most... er... effective then some of the rules bit can be cared for automatically too. But, you're missing the bits in FG which you can read if you don't know the rules. For 5e, the PHB, MM, DMG, etc... most 5e stuff has the Reference Manual which you can read and search just like a PDF generally speaking. Beyond that, this first section makes it sound like your players object to learning the rules for the game they play. Practically speaking, as you play more sessions the rules questions get fewer and fewer because in a group of people, if one person doesn't remember something it's still likely that one of the others will and there's your expectation of rules knowledge "solved" in my opinion.

As Trenloe said, if your players (and/or you) aren't willing to put in effort to learn something that you as their DM want to use, perhaps they should look in the mirror a little bit. Personally, I know and appreciate the amount of time and effort a DM gives up between games to have everything ready to go at an instant, so if my DM in the games I play in said he wanted to use roll20 for some strange reason, I would understand that if I wanted to carry on playing, I would have to put in effort to learn the new platform.

The FG setup is actually pretty intuitive once you get a few things nailed down - everything flows from what you learned to do in those areas. I can teach a person new to FG how to create a character and run them through a mock combat, moving on a map, making attacks, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, stat rolls, using the whisper functionality, open library content, find information in various modules, etc..., etc..., etc.... in about 90 minutes; slightly less if I don't have to do rules explanations, slightly longer if the person is less savvy with computer/software use. So, are your friends really saying they aren't willing to spend an evening to learn rudimentary FG use? Really? If yes, you as DM need to think about that for a while.

If you're so inclined, head on over to the Fantasy Grounds College Discord and see if you can't schedule a training session in how to use FG for 5e at your regular game time and have you as the DM and all your players attend - you'll all go through the basic learning curve together and going forward, if one of you forgets how to do something, one of the rest of the group will remember.

One thing new people often fall into is the thought that they need to make use of 100% of what FG offers right from the first game session. This approach will certainly make it feel like you're swimming in treacle or whatever the phrase is simply because FG is just that powerful of a program. Start basic and add more options as you go once your knowledge base has been established.

It doesn't seem like any research was done on how to do anything in FG. This is a terrible shame because there is a lot of content out there on YT that would answer many of your questions.

Top of your page 2. Again, this isn't a video game. Having everything on one tab of your character sheet would monopolize your whole screen - tabs are much better for space management. And, not to beat a dead horse, but once you take a bit of time and make a small effort to learn how to do something, and where information can be found on the character sheet, its one click away most of the time. Are your players *really* that unwilling to even make an attempt? If so, consider that if you DM on FG you will not have any trouble recruiting a new group that will be more than happy to experience your adventures in FG.

The "small problems here and there" that you reference in your closing are most certainly there and they are most certainly preventing your group from using FG. The problem is those "problems" are the unwillingness of your friends/players to RTFM and learn basic use, not the actual program.

If your group has questions; actual questions not just a complaint that FG isn't roll20, compile some and share them here on the forums, or in the FG Discord and you'll find a lot of people more than happy to point and nudge you in the right direction.

I would also say, that if you are the DM, and perhaps the only DM for your group, then in some ways in addition to a story teller, you are also kind of a leader of your group. You lead the game on game night, but your decisions between sessions, during games, and at the very beginning before anyone has even made a character and you decide what races and classes are available in your campaign and what the setting/theme will be, and also, even what medium you are able and willing to game in; all these decisions lead the group to the gaming experience they will have. If you as DM lead your group to FG, they should be willing to at least make an attempt to follow.

I had to read your document twice. The first time I finished it and thought there aren't really any bad issues here, or any issues at all really. So I read it again to make sure I didn't miss something. None of what you have there is anything more than making an effort to learn the program and (possibly) fear or (seems likely) an unwillingness to change.

shadzar

September 30th, 2018, 06:56

help me convince them that FG is the way to go

I wouldn't bother. if someone doesn't want to use something, why would you tr to make them?

If you were trying to get them to switch form D&D to Monopoly and they didn't want to, would you push it on them still?

Those are just games you can play at home.. FG takes a level, as mentioned in a recent video on YT about the roll20 situation, of installation. FG doesn't run on mobile checked and verified by the Google app store or Apple, Facebok recently got hacked or something, and people are aware programs you install you should trust. Sure they tried it, but maybe they just didn't like what it did yo their computer or how it looked.

getting "used to FG" is a matter in itself. it is weird. it does things weird and unintuitive and is outdated. Thus why FGU is in development because FG cant even run a stable 64-bit version yet.

Google is being stupid and that doc isnt loading, so i cant see the actual list like others have, but those are just some thoughts in general. you could have probably fit the entire list via copy paste into the forums for people to read directly here. FG forums are not afraid to allow long post. You can post things large than Twitter allows, and even larger than Discord allows.. it is REAL forum software here. ;)

from the RESPONSES to the list above, i can assume some thing like the map etc.. and well it might just be to them FG doesnt "feel" right, and there is tons of people out there that agree with them on that. basically everyone who, to this day, are not using FG still.

if YOU really want to use it as a DM, it is better management tool than RealmWorks or whatever it is called, so just try to tell them, that in light of recent BS at rol20, you would like to switch to FG when you DM. you will pay for stuff when you run the game on roll20, and they have to pay nothing. You might be able to get them to understand your choice as a DM, though you may still have to use roll20 to play a a player when one of them DMs, but you wont have to support roll20 monetarily anymore as a DM. ;)

So just remember when you buy a program for a computer you are buying it for yourself, you can't force others to buy it, and if you like FG for a organization tool as a DM, nothing should stop you from using it as that... for online or offline games where you roll actual dice instead of using the fancy calculators in FG. You own your computer, they own theirs, nobody should tell anyone else where to or not to spend their money. :)

Bidmaron

September 30th, 2018, 16:18

If you want software you can approach without any preparation whatsoever, you get Roll20, which handles some tasks very well relative to FG (mapping, from what I can tell, and 'dynamic lighting'), but mostly it is a take-it-as-it-is or invest hours finding and pasting in 'macros' to do something other than what Roll20 does out of the virtual box.

If you want power, you have to invest some time learning the tool. This is why image software on phones offer a limited selection of filters (that you can buy more of) that have very limited ability to adjust. If you want to do anything beyond those filters, you have to go to another tool. One of the recognized standards of this is Photoshop. If you haven't used it, you will find it very 'unintuitive.' The vast array of power in that program requires the user to view 'how-to' sessions on you-tube or tutorials on web sites.

When people claim about FG being unintuitive, what they are really saying is "I cannot instantly use it with zero preparation, therefore it isn't intuitive." Now, FG does have some unusual interface elements, but, IMO (not universally shared, I agree) it helps with the suspension of disbelief because you aren't confronted with technologically-harsh interface elements like you are in every other tool I know of (Realmworks, I'm looking at you, e.g.). The user experience in FG is designed intentionally NOT to look like a computer program. You can disagree with that if you want, but once you get used to it (which takes very little time reading the ** manual and wiki), you may (or not) come to agree with what the original (pre-SW) owners did to create something that intruded minimally into the suspension of disbelief critical to successful fantasy (or non-present-day SCI FI) role playing.

As far as I know (and hope), FGU is not going to force a conventional menu or toolbar driven interface on us. With what SW has said, it is my belief (and hope) that what it will do is fix the 64 bit problem and the networking issues (to a degree - you must still host a session, and that is never going to be as easy as a cloud-hosted environment).

ddavison

September 30th, 2018, 16:56

I would second pretty much everything that LordEntrails hit upon. Use two monitors if you have them and stretch the screen across the two. Use the hotkeys for stuff you frequently reference (there are 96 of them available), pop over to Fantasy Grounds College and hop in (with your players if you can) to a class there for some hands-on with experienced users.

Ellspeth

September 30th, 2018, 18:11

Hi there AngrierTom, welcome to the forums. I read the document you shared, and the guys have all ready covered the tech stuff better than I could.

On another thread I noted I never really used Roll20, only 21 hours, after I had all ready been playing on Fantasy Grounds for two years (in fact the only place I have ever played RPG's is on FG, long story). What I found interesting about your friends concerns were pretty much the same complaints I had about Roll20. I concluded that at least in my case it was a matter of what was familiar. It is simply human nature to prefer the familiar, it is why immigrants collect together into neighborhoods on arriving in a new country, and so on. We naturally tend to resist the unfamiliar.

The other thing that struck me comes down to learning styles, and the learning curve. No one denies FG has quite a learning curve, but I have found it is easier if you are familiar with your own or players learning styles and seek out the support that best fits you. I am kind of with you when it comes to reading manuals, I prefer a hands on method, and when it came to actually learning the rules of different systems, character creation, etc I do far better learning in game or with a walk through in game with an actual GM. I am not alone or FGC wouldn't exist.

If your players are reluctant but you seem enthusiastic why not try this? It is way easier to make it simple for your players if you have played through a few games as a player yourself. There are still quite a few seats open at FG-Con you can join and learn for your own sake. You may find GM's running longer games you want to join. Over time your players may see you continuing on in addition to your Roll20 games and be willing to revisit it. If they see you expanding your comfort zone they are more likely willing to try to keep up.

For the learning curve, I have been playing 4 years and there are still features I am discovering (FG posted a bit about changing the lighting to any color a couple of weeks ago, I did not know I could do that and spent the next 3 hours changing my color). But for me, I find learning Fantasy Grounds an adventure in itself, and isn't that the basis of a good RPG? A group getting together, setting out on an adventure, overcoming challenges?

The High Druid

September 30th, 2018, 18:20

Most of the complaints there pretty much read the same as "Why doesn't my android phone work like my iPhone?" (or the other way around, if you prefer). Mostly it's a matter of being used to one system, and so the new one feels a bit "off" because you haven't spent the time with it yet. Both do (more-or-less) the same job, but in different ways.

For example, personally I much prefer character creation in Fantasy Grounds to Roll20 or D&D Beyond, precisely because the drag and drop is so simple and easy to use. To get all the automations working in either game requires a degree of tweeking, but you can always fall back on rolling the D20 and figuring out what happens just as you would round a physical table.

Window management could certainly be better. The biggest help I have found there is the ability to drag story items, map links, encounters, reference manuals, etc all to hot buttons as ddavison says above. But I'm not sure I'd recommend the screen stretching unless both your monitors are the same size and resolution, but that's mainly my dislike of some of the idiosyncrasies it causes when your monitors aren't the same size/res.

VenatorArgenteolus

September 30th, 2018, 21:47

As one of the players being written about in the original post, I thought I'd post and clarify/add to a few things. First, thank you to all of you who were reasonable and polite in your posts (which is most of you); it's always nice to see people being civil online for once. Our major issue with FG comes down to the fact that we believe it is the more powerful tool, but we see no reason for all that power. Remember that D&D is primarily a game that relies on roleplay and "theater of the mind." This is how we started: Using Word documents as character sheets, with no maps or tokens. A game between a bunch of old friends who, for various reasons could not come together at the same table. At the time, we were really new to pen-and-paper gaming, hell we were playing with our own, created-from-scratch ruleset because we were all too poor to buy rule-books. While that's no longer the case, we started using basically no software at all.

Enter Roll20. We all came in, and I was the DM for our first campaign using it, a campaign that we still run in fact. While I'll not deny that we had to deal with a learning curve in Roll20, I don't believe that a single one of us ever had to open up the user manual. Why is this? Because the Roll20 Interface is well designed for beginners. Everything is labeled, neatly formatted, and the character sheet is almost identical to a physical one: With all information related to combat and checks on the main page, while appearance info and spells separately. Pretty much the only difference from an official Wizards of the Coast character sheet and the Roll20 sheet is that the inventory is also included on the main sheet. To date, the only thing I've ever needed to open up a manual for is to remember how to adjust my maps (which I rarely use anyway) to the grid. Additionally, all of the most useful tools - the compendium for items/monsters/spells, notes and character sheets, and the chat log - are logically separated and compacted as to not infringe on screen real estate (which is a big issue for me since I only have one monitor). One click or button press switches between them, without having to set hotkeys or macros that I will inevitably forget. Smaller but useful features are on the sidebar, out of the way of the main table, and are available at a click as well. Maps can be layered, and the map is on the main table, just like it would be in real life. Lastly, and windows can be split off and minimized or, my personal favorite touch, turned into a tiny widget that you can move around on-screen so you can have a number of them at your fingertips at any time (useful for keeping track of several NPC sheets in combat). All together, the basic features were figured out by our 4 minds working together in about 15 minutes, and we got the hang of more advanced ones as we went.

Then this whole controversy with Roll20 started. And it's ridiculous, mind you, that it's even happening. Roll20's founder and support screwed up, and should be publicly shamed/fired. But people jumping ship is like people swearing off of Star Wars because George Lucas had some offensive opinions: It's kinda stupid when you take into account that a lot of other people worked on the project, and those decisions made by those few people didn't make it into the product. And now one of my players, who DM's his own campaign, wants to do just that: Abandon the platform we've been using for well over a year now, maybe 2 years because I don't know precisely when we started using it, because someone else made a dumb decision that ultimately doesn't affect him at all. But I'm all for learning new things and gaining new skills/experience, so I say "While I'm not going to be spending any money yet, I'll try it with you for a little while and get a feel for it." (Not a verbatim quote, but that's the sentiment). He asks us one night to install the demo and he payed for a month of the Ultimate Edition to give us some more tools to work with.

The other 3 of us get into the session. Seemed weird to me that I couldn't connect just using his username or the name of the campaign, but hey, that's fine, no big deal. We get in and it looks nice; it really does. The background looks cool, as does the design of the tabs at the side. But my first thought is "That's a lot of buttons." So I start clicking around, seeing what's available. I also have a character sheet to fill in, but I hold on that for just a minute while I orient myself. My next thought is "Why in the world are there so many pop-up windows?" Seriously, this looks more like the entirety of my desktop rather than a single program, and I see no way to easily minimize and sort it. Well then I go back that that character sheet. I type in my class, race, background, etc. (I hadn't realized there was drag-and-drop functionality yet). So I fill it all in and realize just how little info is on that front page. I check out all the rest of the tabs, and it strikes me that there are more tabs than pages to an average character sheet. That seems really odd, and switching between them would obviously make combat slower than if most of the info were on one page. I picked Warlock, so I go to look at my spells. . . and find I have no spell slots. What? Again, I hadn't dragged and dropped, so that's partially my bad, but I didn't see a way to manually edit them either, which Roll20 actually has. The option might be there, but I couldn't find it. Once characters are fixed (mostly), our DM opens up the map. . . and it opens in a separate window. Why? There is plenty of space on the VIRTUAL TABLETOP to display it. We open the turn order. Idk if we got auto added to it when we rolled initiative, if not that would be a good feature, but again, it's a huge pop-up window. Granted, it can be resized, but it doesn't get small enough for my liking. I go to cast a spell, and while there are automated spell rolls, I couldn't find a way to display a spell's description in chat, since my DM didn't know the exact details of Dominate Monster, which I don't blame him for. So instead of him just being able to read the description in chat after I post it, one of us has to read it from an external source (it might also be in the in-game compendium, but that's an extra window and I always have D&D Beyond open since most of my rulebooks are on there, so if I'm going to open a window anyways I may as well use that).

It could be the most powerful tool on the market, but in my experience, players don't need a ton of power, they need convenience. Being able to see more at once, without compromising the experience, is the most important thing. Sure, we could have read the manual. Maybe there are even some tips for fixing our problems in there. But we didn't have to read any additional info to learn Roll20, because it's intuitive. Everything is labeled and well organized. We all have jobs and lives outside of the game, so we don't want to spend hours learning the ins and outs of a program that is supposed to be an aid, not a necessity. That, and who reads a manual in 2018? JK, but you get the (long-winded) point by now. There are further issues, but the TL;DR is as follows: FG has too many pop-up windows, illogical organization of information, and almost no QoL features.

Trenloe

September 30th, 2018, 22:19

As one of the players being written about in the original post,...
Thanks for spending the time to tell us about your experience.

I would be interested if your first experience of using a VTT was Fantasy Grounds. Because I feel that you learned about VTT use and functionality from one specific VTT (roll20) and now your experience of that brings you to getting frustrated because you don't know how to do what you're used to doing in a new application - which has a different interface and does things a little differently too. Whereas when you first started learning about roll20, you weren't fully aware of what the average VTT could do and probably thought quite a few times "I can do that? That's really cool!" Whereas now you want to do exactly what you did in roll20, instead of learning a new application and it's different interface and new functionality. That is not putting you down in any way - I'd be exactly the same. And, to be honest, felt the same as you in the couple of games I've played in roll20. I readily admit that my feelings were because I'm used to what I'm used to and don't want to spend time learning a new application when I know one already. I played the couple of games on roll20 because a GM friend wanted to use that to run a couple of games - so I joined up, muddled along, spent some time outside of the session learning how to use roll20, and enjoyed the games.

Quite a lot of the things you've mentioned can be done/managed in Fantasy Grounds:
- drag the link to a spell record to the chat window and then the GM (or other players) can click on the link in chat to open the complete spell record and read about it. You can do this for any record you have access to.
- you have flexibility and can hide a lot of the buttons on the right sidebar that you don't want to see - open the library and check the buttons in the top half of the window that you want visible on the desktop.
- "windows can be split off and minimized or, my personal favorite touch, turned into a tiny widget that you can move around on-screen so you can have a number of them at your fingertips at any time" - you can do exactly this in FG - minimizing a window makes it a small button icon on the desktop - move it somewhere out of the way and click on it to open it whenever you want.

As you've discovered, FG does things differently. A lot of functionality is via drag/drop, other functionality is via context sensitive right-click menus or enabling edit mode.

As has been mentioned, it takes a while to get used to Fantasy Grounds - more so when you're used to a certain interface, with certain functionality - and, from the tone of your writing, an application that you really don't want to stop using. That's cool - don't stop using it. But, if one of your GMs really wants to use FG, and you want to game with them, I'd suggest you give it a go and try to learn it with an open mind. There is nothing more frustrating for any GM who would like to use something because it will help them out with their game prep and organization (this is one of the main reasons we've been told the GM wants to change) than to hear negative feedback almost immediately. If I have all this wrong, I apologize, but that is was it sounds like from where I'm sitting.

As has been mentioned, most people can get pretty proficient with using Fantasy Grounds in 60-90 minutes - sometimes less, especially if you're just looking to play with your friends rather than use the full power of the application. Keep an open mind and get to know how FG does things, rather than pointing out how it doesn't do something the same as, or as well as, roll20. And, who knows, you may find quite a few Quality-of-Life features that you weren't aware of before. Or don't... if you don't want to spend a little bit of time learning FG, or flat out feel it isn't for you, then keep using roll20. No harm, no foul...

Temmpest

September 30th, 2018, 22:25

I've never used Roll20 so I don't have a point of comparison. I never realized how difficult FG was until you pointed it out. It can be some work to get up and running but overall I'm very happy with it and look forward to the Unity version when it comes out. I've been DMing for about a year now on FG and I'm just glad that something like this exists so I can play with friends who no longer live close to me. Good luck to you and your group. I think you should use whatever works for you. And I would definitely not try to convince people to switch if they don't want to.

Ken L

September 30th, 2018, 22:46

My next thought is "Why in the world are there so many pop-up windows?" Seriously, this looks more like the entirety of my desktop rather than a single program

My exact experience when I moved from roll20, and I still dislike it strongly.

in my experience, players don't need a ton of power, they need convenience.

Many of the old guard will defend FG to death with fanboy-ism, this is a strong gate to FG that many new players don't want to surmount.

Trenloe

September 30th, 2018, 23:09

Many of the old guard will defend FG to death with fanboy-ism, this is a strong gate to FG that many new players don't want to surmount.
Assuming you're referring to the people who has been pretty open and honest in this thread so far... One of the reasons is that because of that "steep learning curve" people keep mentioning (steep being relative - is 60-90 minutes steep for an in depth, powerful application?) a lot of people don't give FG a fair go and then comment about FG not being able to do a lot of stuff that it actually can. Letting people know what FG can do, and suggesting that people take more than 15 minutes is not die-hard, old guard fanboy-ism. Unless helping people to understand what someone's VTT of choice can do is defending FG to death with fanboy-ism? Maybe in some people's eyes it is...

To get back to what has already been mentioned - you don't have to use the full power of FG. If you don't want to enter effects, detailed character information, etc. - then don't. Put some basic data into your PC (you can put a lot of data into a PC sheet in only take a few minutes with drag/drop functionality in the more mainstream rulesets), then you can make all of your common rolls from your PC sheet - adjusting manually as necessary, or just telling the GM - that roll total is a 25 because I had +2 for being sneaky, or whatever. If the GM wants to use FG for it's organisational capabilities, but everyone is fine not using all of the potential power in FG, then you are not forced to use it - you can run a pretty minimal theatre of the mind game in FG if you want. You can also start basic and expand along the way if you learn some nice things you want to use, or just keep it minimal - tracking session-to-session campaign data, XP, loot, spell and item data, etc., etc.. You are not forced to use everything, pick and choose what you want to use that works best for your game.

I've seen some GMs come onto the forums and post after a couple of weeks that they're so frustrated because they haven't started playing yet. And it gets down to the fact that they're trying to automate every-little-thing. Which, may be possible, but it's just not worth the effort and potential frustration before you start playing and finding out that you may not actually want that level of automation/detail when you're playing. Start simple, learn the basics, get gaming, get learning and then decide down the line the things you want to add as you go along.

ddavison

September 30th, 2018, 23:15

Almost anything that has a link can be dragged. You can drag stuff to chat to share it, drag it to other players, to hotkey bars for reference later, onto maps for pins or into textcontrols to make a link. I believe a lot of people use DNDBeyond plus Roll20. Take a few moments to look at the Reference Manual within Fantasy Grounds for different books and then click the page link in the upper left to pop those pages out. You can then share those pages as mentioned above or add it to a hotkey, note, etc.

The experience for the players has some nice time-saving features, but many of the features are DM-focused. Those will help the DM run the game more smoothly and efficiently.
1. Party Sheet - makes it easy for the DM to award treasure by dropping it to the Party sheet's inventory tab. From there you can divvy up items or press a button to evenly divide coin and update everyone's character sheets. Anything you don't want remains in the Party Inventory, freeing up players from having to take those kinds of notes. At town, you can sell unwanted items back and get them converted to coin with a click of a button
2. Party Sheet - XP and Quests. These are similar. They keep a running log and calculate XP for everyone in the party sheet. The DM just drags the encounter in once you defeat it and clicks Award.
3. Spellcasters - targeting multiple enemies with CTRL+click targeting and then cast rolls against each target for you automatically, dropping out missed people where necessary. Then click the damage or effect and it will apply it based on who saved
4. Combat Tracker - it does auto-initiative and effects tracking for you.
5. Effects - these are powerful but something you don't have to start with initially. Many spells and NPCs come preloaded with effects but you can create your own or check out the many resources here for different classes. It helps players remember and set the various abilities they have
6. Leveling up normally just requires dragging in the new class to your character sheet and picking any manual items. The chat log will tell you all the stuff that is done for you automatically.

Roll20 has some nice features, for sure. Fantasy Grounds will shine in some of the same areas and in different areas as well.

shadzar

September 30th, 2018, 23:42

It could be the most powerful tool on the market, but in my experience, players don't need a ton of power, they need convenience.

You are not alone. Many use the tools for a crutch be they roll20, or FG, or Map-tool and try to program everything so the DM forgets how to run the game and the players just turn into push-button maniacs. It does loose that feel your whole post was talking about for more power... that wasnt needed in the 80s, and many still don't need it.

Maybe you guys can find a compromise so you don't become a button-pushing hive mind and can still TOTM, while using FG with the other guy as DM? that is for you to decide But you CAN use FG TOTM without all the stuff with pen & paper since you can roll dice in the chat with /die command.

VenatorArgenteolus

September 30th, 2018, 23:49

Thank you to those of you who replied with solutions to some of the problems I had - knowing that you can drag-and-drop the spell to show the description is useful, as are a few of the other things mentioned. However, the responses seem to be missing the main point: That FG isn't well-organized or optimized, in my opinion. For the most part, I got the features I needed to work; it's not that I didn't want to put in the time to learn a program, because we did to an extent. After all, we spent about an hour trying to figure it out, and didn't come out of it with nothing. But it often required extra steps, or in the case of the many windows issue, simply is more complex than it needs to be. Again, why is the background just empty space? Why not put it to use, as you would at an actual table? That removes a window. Why not have a search function for the whole compendium at once (admittedly that might be possible, I just never saw it)? That collapses several windows into one.

All the features are there, and I figured out how to use a good number of them. But the virtual tabletop doesn't feel like a tabletop; it feels like database. That kind of program could be VERY useful for a DM, but leaves me as a player feeling like I'm hobbled. I could walk across a room on my hands, sure, but why do it when it my legs work just fine? That's the feeling it gives off. And as a DM myself, the MOST important thing to me is that my players are having fun playing my campaign. Myself, and at least one of the other players agree that the program, as is, just isn't refined. Like a huge hunk of diamond that nobody bothered to cut or set; it's not really valuable in it's current form. I haven't gotten the first-hand opinion from our last player, but if even one of my players doesn't feel like the program is providing anything useful to them, I'm not going to use it. I admire the power and flexibility of this program. It's just that Roll20 does the basic and important things in ways that are easier to use, which is infinitely more valuable. I feel that way as both a player and a DM. After all, I'd rather have a well-organized toolbox with 50 multi-purpose pieces, than a messier one with 200 specialized tools that I'll likely never need.

shadzar

October 1st, 2018, 01:24

Again, why is the background just empty space? Why not put it to use, as you would at an actual table?

Moon Wizard would have to answer that and nobody else probably can, but again you are not alone.. All i can say is there is no such thing as a "map" in FG. everything is just images that can apply a grid and all the tools can but used to measure of draw on the image.

even a character portrait you could have the grid on and USE as a map....

That is by the nature of FG having everything revolve around the combat tracker and not around the tokens. it really is a cluster-frick of needless windows and lots hate that.

in the end you have to decide how to spend your money or time, and if FG isnt worth it, hope your group doesnt break up over it. if nothing else try using Discord voice to just share a map and play in, and the DM can just track everything in FG themselves for all the player and the players can TOTM it all.

LordEntrails

October 1st, 2018, 01:28

AngrierTom and VenatorArgenteolus, Let me suggest something, would you and your group be willing to sit down (virtually) with an experienced GM and have them walk you through using FG?

I have no doubt if you posted a day and time at least a few days out that you all were willing and able, we could find someone to help walk you through things.

I really feel if you guys had someone show you , in about an hour or so you all would be very comfortable, and in a better position to decide if you wanted to switch or not.

Let me say I appreciate the time and effort you folks have put into it, but trying to learn FG all on your own may not be the most efficient way to learn it, as you know, in many ways it does not work in the way you expect. We can help :)

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 02:10

We unfortunately would never have the time for that without sacrificing our sessions themselves. We rotate between 3 DMs, and play once a week. Everyone in the group works vastly different schedules, and most of our schedules change week-by-week. We only have one timeslot each week that we can guarantee the ability to get together. Also, we don't know anyone who actually uses FG and is comfortable enough with it to teach us, and no offense, but we wouldn't want to learn from a complete stranger. While we could likely learn some things from them, we can understand things far more thoroughly by learning them ourselves, as a group. And I suppose that I should say again: We KNOW how to use the program, we just don't LIKE the way it works. The advanced features we may lack some knowledge on, but that's fine since we won't need them often, if at all.

I'm writing these posts because I want to explain what the issues are, from our point of view, in the hopes that they may be addressed in future versions of the program and FG will be made more accessible to people. Like I said, I think FG is very powerful and useful for DMs, but it's a killer on players because it is unwieldy, even once you figure out how to do what you need. Case and point: the other player I mentioned in my last post that agrees with me? He read part of the manual and found there are 96 commands (or more) that can be linked to hotkeys. I don't need, or even WANT hotkeys! I mostly use my mouse to navigate on a computer, because it's simpler and I don't have to remember what's linked to what. And true, I don't HAVE to use them. But the design of the program is based around things like that. FG just doesn't seem to be made for ease of use, but rather to allow the more knowledgeable to utilize the full breadth of it's features. Which would be fine if it were just a tool for making maps and such, ya know, a one-man project. But it isn't. It's a full virtual tabletop, where multiple people have to communicate. And when a person is speaking, which is more important; that they use large, impressive words, or that they are brief and easily understood? FG seems to favor the former.

LordEntrails

October 1st, 2018, 02:24

...
I'm writing these posts because I want to explain what the issues are, from our point of view, in the hopes that they may be addressed in future versions of the program and FG will be made more accessible to people. Like I said, I think FG is very powerful and useful for DMs, but it's a killer on players because it is unwieldy, even once you figure out how to do what you need. Case and point: the other player I mentioned in my last post that agrees with me? He read part of the manual and found there are 96 commands (or more) that can be linked to hotkeys. I don't need, or even WANT hotkeys! I mostly use my mouse to navigate on a computer, because it's simpler and I don't have to remember what's linked to what. And true, I don't HAVE to use them. But the design of the program is based around things like that. FG just doesn't seem to be made for ease of use, but rather to allow the more knowledgeable to utilize the full breadth of it's features. Which would be fine if it were just a tool for making maps and such, ya know, a one-man project. But it isn't. It's a full virtual tabletop, where multiple people have to communicate. And when a person is speaking, which is more important; that they use large, impressive words, or that they are brief and easily understood? FG seems to favor the former.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Different people use and learn things differently. For me, FG was very intuitive and is easy to use. For many, such as yourselves, it's not. It comparison, I've spent hours trying to learn Roll20 (and am still working on it for a gaming Con I'm supporting), and find it very difficult. Each to their own.

As for the hotkey example. I think you are missing something there, see each hotkey slot (which you can put any command you want to into) can have it's own label. So no need to remember what you put in the ALT-F7 slot, just hold down Alt and read the hotkey labels.

Anyways, don't know if their much point in continuing as I don't think we want to "argue" with you. If you do have any questions or issues we can help with. Just let us know.

Happy Gaming!

Temmpest

October 1st, 2018, 02:25

FG isn't for everyone. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just use what you want.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 03:27

I know you guys are just trying to help, and I appreciate it. The issue is that the DM seems to be trying to force us to use FG, and asking you guys to help "convince" us is kinda backhanded and disrespectful, so I felt the need to respond with what the actual issue is when my friend pointed out that the DM had made this post. Not trying to start anything. Thank you all for your support, help, and opinions!

Andraax

October 1st, 2018, 03:40

Atua

October 1st, 2018, 04:12

There are more players than GMs. The GM chooses the tool, and the players will find their way to his table. If you don't want to use the tool, you are free to find another GM.

I look at it as the player's trying to force their choice on the GM, not the other way around.

Andraax, there might be more to this then we are seeing here, I think it might be best to stay to the benefits of FG over roll20, as opposed to getting into the middle of a possible argument they might be having.

@Venator, as both a player and GM of Fantasy Grounds, I have noticed that a great of the benefits favours the GM. Being a GM yourself, you would be aware that prep time can be quite extensive (however, this does depend on your GM style, some GM's are seat of there pants, impromptu masters). Where I find this tool shines (for 5e at least, but other rulesets have these benefits as well) is in providing decent tools in organising your preparation material so that access to it is quick and easy (as a GM, you can use the shortcut bar at the bottom to link your most used story entries for example so that you can bring up an often used file, like a world map or what have you). It also provides quality of life improvements to how the game is run (for example, tracking concentration in 5e, so that when a PC takes damage, it automatically triggers a concentration check and removes the effect if it fails, such that you do not have to remember to tell the player to do it).

These sorts of things allow me to focus more on the story that I want to tell, rather then be bogged down in the insignificant busy work of the game. On the player side of things you would probably not see that often, or at all, and instead as you have said, be exposed to things such as window explosion (which I don't like as well, but hopefully FGU might modify the occurrence of this) and the different format of the character sheet, and the quizzical need of the combat tracker, or why the tabletop itself is not used. As a player, I try to keep my windows down to three, the current map, the combat tracker and lastly the character sheet, but someone with a single monitor could definitely start feeling cramped by even those three windows along with the chat window and the right hand button selection, especially if the map is a large one. You can reduce the size of the map, and navigate around it where necessary, by the way, which can help with providing all important real estate.

On the flipside, I started with roll20, as it was free (nothing's better than free, right ;) ), but I found that the amount of time I spent on prep work using that tool was prohibitive, and looked for an alternative, which led me to FG. FG has definitely sped up my prep time comparatively speaking, which has allowed me to spend that extra time to make the game itself more interesting, a richer experience, which I believe has benefited the players indirectly (they get a more engrossing story/game/adventure). I guess all I'm trying to say here is that your friend may be interested in trying this tool because his prep time is limited, but does not want the game/adventure to suffer for it.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 04:32

@Atua, I did notice that is benefits the DM far more than the players, and I agree that in certain regards it is very powerful. I am one of those impromptu DM's, so it doesn't do so much for me, but I do see why my other DM is attracted to it. He does a lot of prep work and keeps a variety of notes, while I tend to keep everything in my head, or make it up as I go. I just can't use it effectively as a player, and I know at least one of the others is in the same boat. However, if FG were to ever fix some of the concerns I have, making it more player friendly, I would absolutely be willing to switch over.

I also really appreciate your sentiment, Atua. As I stated earlier, we are a group of IRL friends with years of history; we use D&D as a way to hang out and stay in touch. The distinction of DM changes every week, and switching between platforms for sessions would be annoying, so making sure we're using the right one for us is a big deal. When I see people saying "find new players," I have to laugh a little bit, because they are completely off-base. The game is ABOUT the players, DM included. I'm sure I'll get around to learning FG a little better over time, but for now, I'm just doing what's best for the group as a whole.

PS: Your positive attitude and understanding has led to my other friend, the one who thinks of FG in the same light I do, to giving it another shot. I feel a little better about the program after seeing your post, as well, even if I still don't prefer it.

Valatar

October 1st, 2018, 05:04

Thing is, if you feel that FG is too automated and harshing your vibe by getting in the way, you can simply not use those features! Buttons getting in your way? Click the lower right Library button and you can uncheck any section that you don't want on your screen. You can strip down FG to a chat window and a map window and roll the dice or use /roll commands and call it a day. I've gotten quite fond of the automated assistance, however! I don't view it as reducing the players to button pushers, I view it as taking care of the numeric busywork so the players can pay more of their attention to the roleplaying and less to trying to work out a saving throw.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 05:10

@Valatar You, sir, have not been paying quite enough attention. It's not about what the program does or does not do; it's about the fact that essential features do not function in useful and logical ways. The window spam is a problematic result of that, not the only issue. I also have no problem with the automated assistance. I think it could be quite useful if I learned a little more about how to use it.

Atua

October 1st, 2018, 05:14

...switching between platforms for sessions would be annoying, so making sure we're using the right one for us is a big deal...

I do not envy your choice there, as by the looks of things, the requirements of the DM's in your group seems to vary a great deal. I don't think you will find something that is the be all and end all (heck, if there was one, everyone would be on it). All I can think of, is maybe running for a month or two on FG with the DM who is keen on using it so as to become more familiar with the quirks of the interface so they become less incongruous. At that point you will have a pretty good idea on whether the things that bother you now, will bother you in the long run and can then make a very informed choice.

I wouldn't bother having the keen FG DM try to add too much to the interface through extensions (extensions being community designed add ons that provide additional automated benefits most of the time), just keep it to the vanilla experience, so that he can focus on running the story he wants. Then put it to a vote.

Also, if AngerierTom wants support on some of the many features available in FG, he can hit up FGC (Fantasy Grounds College), where he can get support on any questions he has.

ddavison

October 1st, 2018, 05:19

He read part of the manual and found there are 96 commands (or more) that can be linked to hotkeys. I don't need, or even WANT hotkeys! I mostly use my mouse to navigate on a computer, because it's simpler and I don't have to remember what's linked to what.

Hotkeys are clickable with the mouse and they display a title for whatever you put there. Try just dragging a few things down there to see what I mean. The hotkeys are the section at the bottom of the screen. You can hit F1 through F12 to launch them, click them or drag them to the chat. Hold Shift to show Shift-F1 thru Shift-F12. Do the same for CTRL, Alt and the various combos -- although 12 may be enough for you as-is.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 05:52

ddavison

October 1st, 2018, 06:37

@ddavison I did actually figure out how to use the hotkeys, I was using that as an example of power without purpose. A feature that is included not because a large number of people will use it, but rather for those very few who feel they need to be able to have everything hotkeyed for reasons I personally cannot fathom. Something that could have been left out, in favor of working on the key features that the majority of players will appreciate. At least, that's my opinion on the matter.

I think they are pretty heavily used. I use them when I DM a session to have links to the upcoming parts of the adventure I want to run or maps that I plan to revisit in the following sessions. New FG users routinely close the map by accident. If they dragged it to the hotkey, they could just pop it up right away without having to ask the GM to re-share it. As a GM, you don't have to go back and find it in the Maps window or from the story.

As a player, I put reference sections for rules I want to refer back to - such as the PHB page on conditions or the class page for a new character type I'm playing but not super familiar with. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned how nice it was to have access to everything on the screen at once. Hotkeys help with that sort of thing.

At the end of the day, you are just going to have your own preference on which type of system you prefer. It's great that we have several alternatives out there for people to choose from.

Trenloe

October 1st, 2018, 07:00

@ddavison I did actually figure out how to use the hotkeys, I was using that as an example of power without purpose. A feature that is included not because a large number of people will use it, but rather for those very few who feel they need to be able to have everything hotkeyed for reasons I personally cannot fathom. Something that could have been left out, in favor of working on the key features that the majority of players will appreciate. At least, that's my opinion on the matter.
Don't think of these slots as "hotkeys" in terms of traditional hotkeys - i.e. specific keyboard shortcut keys you press instead of using the mouse. Think of them as a customisable button bar - allowing you to allocate what you want to be easily accessible with the click of a button, or the hold of a key (CTRL, SHIFT, ALT to move to a different set of buttons) and the click of a button. This is great functionality and flexibility within the application - allowing a player or GM to allocate the things you want to access quickly right there on your desktop. And... change them as you wish, if you no longer need the link you put in button 4, change it to something else or clear it for later use.

So, don't think "hotkeys" - think "dynamic button bar". :)

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 07:40

As a player, I put reference sections for rules I want to refer back to - such as the PHB page on conditions or the class page for a new character type I'm playing but not super familiar with. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned how nice it was to have access to everything on the screen at once. Hotkeys help with that sort of thing.

I see that point, but wouldn't it just make more sense to create a system in which most, if not all of that information could coexist on a screen without having to constantly open and close windows? Granted, I'm not designer (I did go to university for game design, but that's a whole other story), but isn't simplicity and ease of access the hallmark of any good product? Rather than have a bunch of hotkeys that bring up extra information, I'd much rather just be able to make one click to un-hide the info I need, or be able to have it up on the side without obstructing my view of the play area. Hotkeys are a solution to the problem of screen space. . . but are they a good solution? I don't feel they are a good substitute for comfortable design. They're an advanced tool that should only feel necessary if I'm doing something like prep work, where I might need to reference 10 different documents at once, and time is of little concern. While in combat, my access to info can greatly affect how enjoyable my experience - and that of the other players - will be. Hence why all combat-related character info is on one page in the physical 5E character sheets. Hence why combat is once chapter in the PHB. Hence why I would like for the main screen to be the battle map, not a background that doesn't contribute in any way.

Out of combat, it still makes sense to have attributes and skills on the same page, since they relate closely to each other, and I might have to make several different checks, both skills and saving throws. And my features and traits may affect those, or other things I may be doing out of combat. There is a reason the character sheets were designed the way they were, and FG just destroys it. Outside of the character sheet, if I'm looking up info, I generally only need one thing at any given time, maybe two if I'm trying to figure out a ruling on a spell or something. So why not, instead of having a bunch of different windows (Items, Monsters, Spells, Chat, etc.), make it one window with several tabs, similar in design to an Internet browser? And just make it if I want to split them, or join several together, I can? And again, if there isn't already a function to search through ALL of these databases to find what I want, that would be a great feature.

And you mention that new users commonly close the map by accident. Instead of making it easier to reopen the map. . . why not just make it so it's less likely to get accidentally closed? Ya know, fix the issue instead of circumventing it. Again, like in Roll20, where the map is part of the background and can't be closed by accident, because it's completely under the DM's control. That doesn't have to be your exact solution, but it's at least a sensible one. After all, we don't just swipe our physical maps off of the table all the time by accident, do we?

I want to use FG, as much as it might not seem so. It just doesn't work in a way that makes any sense to me. If it went through changes that made it more player-friendly, I would absolutely jump ship and play on FG, but as it is, why would I? It's just clunky to use. I can get the same experience by having a bunch of Chrome tabs open with D&D Beyond tabs, basically.

Trenloe

October 1st, 2018, 08:23

...but wouldn't it just make more sense to create a system in which most, if not all of that information could coexist on a screen without having to constantly open and close windows?
This is the reference manual - another way to display data, but all in one window. Like I said - FG has flexibility in many areas. If you want to use the dynamic button bar (hotkey bar), use it. If you see no use in it, then don't use it. But it doesn't reduce the flexibility and power of the hotkey bar for those that like that functionality. They're not a substitute for anything, they're a very flexible and powerful piece of additional functionality that you're not being forced to use if you don't want to.

It's good that you're giving feedback, but it seems you're fighting against how FG does things, not going with how it does things. FG is constantly evolving (the reference manual functionality I mention above wasn't available a couple of years ago) and the devs do take feedback on board, but it's not going to change over night. And, as usual with most products that have been around for many years (FG has been around for 15 years now I think), backwards compatibility has to be considered when making changes.

Now... considering the map as a background. Personally, I do not like this. Sure, in theory it simulates the table-top environment of a big map on the table that has all sorts of clutter on top of it. But... why? Why not have a system that allows you to setup your screen as you want it. If you want the map front-and-centre, then size the FG image window containing the map to be nice and large and in front of other window, if you want it below the other stuff you're looking at then bring the other windows to the front - but if you want to see the whole map again, just click on the map. This adds a lot of flexibility, especially if the PCs are spread across multiple maps - for example, a multi-level tower, where the GM has a different image for each level. For they can share the images with just the players who have PCs on that level, or if a player is running multiple PCs for that session, share multiple maps with them - and the player can view them all by having multiple map windows at their disposal - which they can swap to, resize, zoom in, minimise, reposition to their hearts content - this gives players and GMs control of how they setup their desktop and view maps.

I get it, you're used to something else. I've seen very similar comments from many new users over the years - where they rail against functionality they describe as: not-intuitive, messy, non-modern, not like apps they're familiar with, "this doesn't make sense", "... for reasons I personally cannot fathom", etc., etc.. Then, over time they change - they get to know how FG works, they appreciate the non-standard interface that minimises menu/button clutter and recreates something like the face-to-face RPG experience, they get to understand and appreciate why some design decisions were made (and, yes, maybe get frustrated at others - FG isn't perfect), they see how SmiteWorks takes on board feedback (without blocking, locking or barring threads/people) and the product changes over time, they get comfortable and happy with the application. Some don't/can't make the change and leave - that's fine, FG isn't for everyone. But, there are a lot of reasons why Fantasy Grounds has many die hard fan-boys (a lot of the time that name shouldn't be seen as derogatory) - it's because we see the strength, power, flexibility and gaming opportunities that Fantasy Grounds can provide, and have enjoyed many hundreds of hours of great gaming with our friends, where Fantasy Grounds has facilitated that and made it easier - not got in the way and made it a battle...

I'm glad you want to use FG. My recommendation would be to embrace it and try to avoid thinking that it doesn't make sense or that you can't fathom why something is useful/works the way it does. Shrug and think "oh well, perhaps there's a reason for that" (there more than likely is). Use it, explore the functionality and get gaming. Take a positive attitude to the gaming session, embrace the change - your gaming will be all the better for it, and everyone round the (virtual) table will enjoy it!

I hope you don't feel like I'm patronising you here, I apologise if that's the case. I usually don't think it's a good idea to tell people how they should play their own games... Just some advice that you can ignore if you wish. Game on! :)

Valyar

October 1st, 2018, 08:43

If players have so hard time keeping the map and other assets on the screen, constantly click X or right-click-> close and have problems re-opening from the Image library, I think the issue is not with FG at all. This is OK for the first couple of sessions, while they learn the product, but if this is constant behavior, they either don't want to learn, silently sabotage the game or should not use a computer. The GM can always see who has the map/image opened by checking the portraits in the lower left corner and re-share. If the players can't manage the zoom/resize interface, he can do that as well by locking the zoom/size from his end, I did this for some maps with new players.

The approach of Roll20 is different, everything there is map, it is not really providing tabletop feeling and immersion as FG does. Which is quite important and so far everyone I introduced to the product loves it. Problems are elsewhere, not in the user interface IMO.

Targas

October 1st, 2018, 08:55

There is a Community plug-in called Custom Desktop decal, which simply changes your background picture to anything you might like. But it will behave differently, by not adding grid snapping, zooming in/out, sharing fraction of the map, moving an oversized map around, sharing a map with individual adventurers, e.g. who peek around the next staircase, remove sharing, auto-center zoom level and portion of oversized map for all players at once, draw on top of it to mark changes, put down pins which link to either other maps or story related lookups, put down tokens you can label individually and read by hoovering over with you mouse, allow for auto deploy prepped encounters in advance, or even selectivly hide enemies by toggling in the combat tracker, or let players draw different colored arrows with distant meters, let attack dice be dropped directly on the token to roll hits/damage (although I think this might even be possible w/o a map),... you get the picture. Btw., players don‘t need to re-open maps. The GM can do this for them as well. Instead of clicking dice, you simply drag your dice to an F-key slot and by either clicking this slot or pressing an F-key it rolls whatever you like. Last statement was just a sidetrack on f-keys.

Trenloe

October 1st, 2018, 09:15

And, to follow up on an earlier comment - where allowing images to become "maps" was mentioned - or, more accurately, it was mentioned that you can put map type stuff on an image if you wish, and the combat tracker links everything together (even across multiple images/maps) as the hub of combat data tracking, initiative order, targeting, effects, etc. - all in one place. Again, it's a shift from other more map focused VTTs - providing similar RPG functionality, but in a different way.

The ability to use any image as a container for gaming should be embraced as a very flexible approach to the VTT desktop. Want to use a cool image as a background to theatre of the mind gaming, but still want to put some tokens on the image to roughly indicate positions, ranges, or how many baddies are left? You can! You're not limited to specifying any one visible object as a map - you can have a few open at a time, or on-the-fly decide to use a random image as a map/position indication tool. Quite a few FG GMs I know use many different images as background to maps for fast, quick, non-positional gaming - but still put tokens on to aid in visualisation of rough position, with a flavour image for the background.

Here's an example: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45550-Need-roleplaying-quot-Theater-of-the-mind-quot-walk-thru-using-FG&p=405124&viewfull=1#post405124 There are some others from damned around somewhere too...

Other community members have put together images/templates that can aid in showing where individuals are in relation to others, without worrying about counting squares or similar:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43085-Generic-quot-Theater-of-the-Mind-quot-map-(image-and-module)
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43227-quot-Theatrical-Maps-quot-for-Theater-of-the-Mind-combats&p=384667&viewfull=1#post384667
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43227-Theatrical-Maps

shadzar

October 1st, 2018, 12:13

The issue is that the DM seems to be trying to force us to use FG, and asking you guys to help "convince" us is kinda backhanded and disrespectful

Show the DM the same level of lack of respect and suggest to him using Tabletop Simulator for your games. it has less windows for D&D use, its a giant table. drag a link and drop to get maps on the table, and many tokens and icons exist in 3d. there is a "mod" for D&D use on it. though everyone will have to pay to use it as it is only on Steam. but it does board games also which FG and roll20 dont.

Maybe that would be an alternative if you are all wanting to leave roll20 and dont want to all use FG. :)

ddavison

October 1st, 2018, 15:28

I don't think it is disrespectful for a DM to try to convince players to switch to the platform that the DM prefers -- especially if the DM is footing the bill by way of paying for the Ultimate license and DLC. The DM invests the most time and money into the game. DMs on our site have very little difficulty filling a complete table of players.

shadzar

October 1st, 2018, 16:47

Kelrugem

October 1st, 2018, 17:00

you might have missed where it was reported there are 3 DMs in the group. that would be 3 copies of FG ultimate license vs 3 free roll20 accounts.

is this one person that started the thread buying all those license for everyone else?

roll20 only takes 1 person paying the monthly fee, and can have more than one DM by just clicking a button to let any player have DM control.. FG can't do that. the expense is larger greater than "reviews" make it out to be.

As far as I understood they all are friends a long time and probably will not need any new stranger/player who might only have the demo :) Thus, everyone can buy a standard license which might be in that case cheaper (depending on the number of people, but I doubt it is much bigger than a standard size) than 450$ once or 30$ per month :)

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 17:02

@Valyar What you are suggesting is that players the players are stupid/malicious, and while this can sometimes be the case, that is like blaming the victim. It would be like if we had a machine with huge, exposed blades, and blamed people for falling in after their first month on the job. "Well he's been working with the machine for a while, he should have known better." That's very poor reasoning.

@Trenloe You keep mentioning "flexibility," the problem is I can see exactly what you mean, but it doesn't make the program any more attractive. It's fine to be able to do more with the map, it's fine to have automated features. But an "acquired taste" is just a way of saying that it's nasty until you learn to ignore the flavor, and that seems to be what you are suggesting about this program; that I have to use it for a while and ignore the glaring issues I have with it in order to appreciate it. As for the hotkeys, when I said that I "can't personally fathom it," that wasn't a dig at this program, that's my general feeling about using masses of hotkeys. Again, I'm very mouse-oriented in terms of how I compute. My keyboard is for communication, my mouse is for interaction, essentially. That's a very boiled down description, but I can't put it much better without a several page explanation/rant. Yes, there are other ways to do what I need much of the time, but if the suggestion is always "set a hotkey," that tells me something about how the program is designed to be used.

The reason I'm not "going with how FG does things" is because the things it does do NOT simulate a tabletop experience. They simulate a database, with the option of having a tabletop somewhere amongst it. It's one more thing to manage, not a constant the way these games were meant to be played. The tabletop is the center of a "tabletop game" after all. And if we are just going to use theater of the mind, as we used to, well why use a program at all? Please stop insinuating that my issues are only because I didn't use FG first. Granted, a few things are. But I deliberately tried to distance myself from Roll20 while trying to learn this program, because I know preconceptions can get in the way. Even approaching this as freshly as possible, with an open mind, did not yield many positive results. And that's where the problem lies: If I were a gamer come straight from the tabletop to this program, I would dislike it even more than I do now. You say it reduces clutter; I'd claim the opposite. You say it's flexible; Comparatively to a physical character sheet and game board/map, it seems restrictive. I get that's my opinion, but it seems to be one that many other people share, hence why when I asked around about VTTs for the first time, this program was never mentioned. It was only when this whole Roll20 controversy started that I ever heard about FG. Everyone I know that plays tabletop games has a Roll20 account; the 4 people involved here have FG accounts, and only 1 likes it. Does that not say that maybe some improvements should be made to the program? That the competitor is doing something right? Maybe you'd disagree on this point, and I understand that it's not my project to govern, but it doesn't seem to be coincidence that program seems niche. Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you. Niche products have their place, too, and it is a very important role to fill. But it does mean that you're appealing to a smaller audience as a matter of course, using less intuitive features in order to deliver on another front, whether that be power, graphical detail, etc.

@ddavison It's not disrespectful for him to try to convince us; it's disrespectful to attempt and go behind our backs and to break the relative unity of the group by asking you guys to convince us for him. Again, 3/4 of us DM, so if we switched over to FG, that would be 3 people that have to foot the bill, not just him. And it's not about finding a table full of players; any of us can do that. We run these sessions as a group activity to keep in touch and have fun together, not just to play the game. If he wants to DM for another group as well using FG, I wouldn't mind in the least. That has no bearing on the issue.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 17:06

Kelrugem

October 1st, 2018, 17:24

@kelrugem Missed you in the last post, sorry. That is indeed the case, we could probably all get standard licenses, though I think with that we would also have to all get the source books if we wanted them (could be wrong about that, though). Either way, it would indeed be cheaper for each person if we did it that way, excluding source books, which we have on D&D Beyond anyway (They're all linked through my account, so everyone else can see the content I've purchased. It's a really neat feature, even if I am the one footing the bill for all the books lol).

Ah oki :)

I do not have much time to answer, but maybe it helps when I answer, too :) I just came recently to FG with my players, too :) before we were playing two years on Roll20 with a Pro account (the 10$ option). What the people here mean with "taste" does not necessarily mean that one has to get used to oversee the problems. When my players and I started to try FG we had the opposite conlcusion than you :) While one had to learn the tool first (like with Roll20 too), all my players and I came to the opinion that it is much more intuitive than Roll20 due to the description in the sidebar and the links to informations you can provide to any feat, special ability and so on (so one does not need to copy the full text into the sheet such that the sheet does not overload with too many informations too fast) :) E.g. character making: In FG it is pretty clear where to go, since there is a character manager and in the sidebar is something like "characters". In Roll20 one has to know that one has to put up character sheets in the handouts and that is a bit hidden :)

The same with immersion: In Roll20 for us everything was too plane, too generic because Roll20 want to be a tabletop for everything (or at least it made this impression to me), it didn't give us the feeling of playing a RPG, playing D&D. While you have UI themes, mood lighting etc. in FG which provide for us a much better feeling of playing an immersive tabletop :)

This is what the people here may mean with "taste" :)

To the hotkeys: As some other persons mentioned you can basically use everything just with your mouse :) I had the impression that FG is "mainly" for the mouse due to the provided Drag&Drop of everything in the sidebar and of the dice macros in the sheets :)

PS: We play D&D 3.5; maybe Roll20 is different when playing 5e or some other versions :)

dulux-oz

October 1st, 2018, 17:30

Having watched this thread now for some time, I think that we've reached a point where both sides have frankly and fairly expressed their views, and that neither side will be able to convince the other.

That's OK, it simply means that some people prefer to use R20 - with all its benefits and flaws - and some people prefer to use FG - with all its benefits and flaws.

So with that in mind, why don't we all move on to more beneficial activities, OK?

And no, I'm not banning anyone or censoring anything or engaging in any other behaviour like that - my name isn't "Nolane" after all - so if people want to continue (on both sides) talking to a brick wall then more power to you - me, personally, I'd rather spend my time gaming. But that's just me. :)

ddavison

October 1st, 2018, 17:31

@VenatorArgenteoulus, it sounds like your group just needs to work out stuff among yourselves first. It sounds very similar to situations where one person wants to run a game of system X but the rest of the group is already comfortable with system Y.

FG is very mouse-specific and we highly recommend a 3 button mouse with a mouse wheel. If you genuinely want to learn how to use Fantasy Grounds to the fullest, you will need to adapt and learn the FG way of accomplishing tasks. If you don't you will have a bad experience with it. Even if you do, you simply may not like it. To learn it, you might take a visit over to Fantasy Grounds College and hop into one of the classes there with some of the other DMs/players. Alternately, you can watch the various tutorial videos we have linked on our YouTube channel and wiki.

Fantasy Grounds evolves over time and undergoes constant updates. It is not, however, going to dramatically change the basic way it operates. It's going to be using drag and drop and right-click menus for the foreseeable future. Window management is something we do hope to improve in the future, but we don't have the exact plan worked out for that at this time. If that is not your cup of tea, then that is completely fine. We can tell you things that we like or how you can shift your usage to benefit the most from the application but we can't make you like something you simply don't like. If you decide that you want to keep researching it, we offer 30-day money back guarantees on all purchases from our site. You can pick up a module or two -- perhaps Dragon Heist and then try it out fully. If you don't like it, just shoot a note over to [email protected] and we will get you refunded.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 17:37

ddavison

October 1st, 2018, 17:43

@kelrugem I'm glad you found FG useful! I just have very different feelings on a lot of the issues. I've never had a problem with info overload in Roll20 (I guess because I was used to the physical 3.5 and 5e sheets first?) and think it is much better organized. I can get the immersion thing: Roll20 is a bit generic looking. The hotkeys v. mouse thing comes down to the fact that FG has a lot of menus and windows, and a lot of things are hidden in tabs within those menus and windows and heavily divided. Whereas in Roll20, I don't need to drag and drop anything into chat; I can just click it once and it displays there, or I can just open it up from a collapsed title if I'm the only one who needs to know what it does. The only-drag-and-drop necessary for Roll20 is for character sheets, which is a feature also present in FG, so they're nearly dead even there. Character creation is about the same once you figure them out.

Side Note: The DM mentioned that shared content is indeed in FG, so that is awesome. We just didn't see it because he didn't buy any source books with it yet, which was smart given that the discussion is still ongoing.

You don't have to drag links to chat unless you want to share them. You can just click it to open up abilities, spells, etc. to see the full description. I assume that is the same in Roll20 unless you opening an ability pops something up on your friends systems. Do you ever drag links to DNDBeyond content into Roll20 to share? If so, that's the same thing except you never leave FG. If you didn't drag and drop the race and class to your character sheet when you built your character, you may not have seen this. It does pop up a new window though instead of expanding a section within the character sheet, so you would need to close it after you read it. If you wanted to share it with the group so they could read it too, then you could drag the window link to chat or to a specific player's portrait.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the hotkeys are there to help unhide things. If you find yourself going to a 2nd tab to pull up something regularly, you can throw it into a hotkey bar slot so it is always available as a single click from the desktop.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 17:51

FG is very mouse-specific and we highly recommend a 3 button mouse with a mouse wheel. If you genuinely want to learn how to use Fantasy Grounds to the fullest, you will need to adapt and learn the FG way of accomplishing tasks. If you don't you will have a bad experience with it. Even if you do, you simply may not like it. To learn it, you might take a visit over to Fantasy Grounds College and hop into one of the classes there with some of the other DMs/players. Alternately, you can watch the various tutorial videos we have linked on our YouTube channel and wiki.

And therein lies my exact issue with the program. This isn't a work program, not a tool to learn so I can do a job. It's a GAME. Games may have tutorials, but you know what we say about them when the tutorial is too long? That they are badly designed. I've never had to take a class to learn how to play a game - especially a game I already know how to play! Sure, learning the advanced features later on, once you have the basics well and truly down, that makes sense. But to have to watch a 30 minute tutorial, or take a class, just to learn the program, to run the game I already play? That's ridiculous to me. Again, we figured out the basics of Roll20 in about 15 minutes, give or take, and we did it without any outside help. It took us nearly an hour here, and there doesn't seem to be much worth the extra time spent. It's different, and certainly more powerful than Roll20. . . but what does that matter? D&D has never been about power, so that is a non-issue. As for how different the interface looks, that's nice, I guess, but ultimately irrelevant to me since I'm a very practical person most of the time.

I understand that you all have your own design philosophy, but that's just the nature of any kind of philosophy; it's a personal thing. I tried it, don't like it, and gave you suggestions on how I think you could make it better. If you don't want to take them, that is your prerogative, I just won't be using the system and wouldn't encourage others to do so either. And I don't need a refund or anything; I haven't spent any money here yet. Though the DM who started the post might need it, depending on whether he actually ends up using FG for anything.

VenatorArgenteolus

October 1st, 2018, 17:57

You don't have to drag links to chat unless you want to share them. You can just click it to open up abilities, spells, etc. to see the full description. I assume that is the same in Roll20 unless you opening an ability pops something up on your friends systems. Do you ever drag links to DNDBeyond content into Roll20 to share? If so, that's the same thing except you never leave FG. If you didn't drag and drop the race and class to your character sheet when you built your character, you may not have seen this. It does pop up a new window though instead of expanding a section within the character sheet, so you would need to close it after you read it. If you wanted to share it with the group so they could read it too, then you could drag the window link to chat or to a specific player's portrait.

It is not the same in Roll20. Once info is on your character sheet, it's a single click on a button to share it, or click on the title to expand it. And I don't have to drag in anything from D&D Beyond because, assuming I have the sourcebook on Roll20, I can just either drag it to my character sheet to be filled in, or click on it to read it, similarly to FG in that respect. I did see all the features you mentioned, they are just the same as Roll20, or lacking in comparison. I just use D&D Beyond instead of buying my sourcebooks on Roll20 because I like their format and organization better, not to mention they have better prices on the books. That's just a matter of me choosing to do a tad bit more work for more clarity.