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Trenloe
September 28th, 2018, 12:47
I've started work on the underlying effects subsystem in the Pathfinder Playtest (PFRGP2) ruleset.

I've copied the current 3.5E/Pathfinder effects Wiki page and I'm updating as I go along. Things updated/changed are marked with ++ in the Wiki page.

Updated for release 3d - October 16th, 2018.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/PFRPG2_Effects

At this point, the main things are:
1) Bonus/penalty types: circumstance, conditional, item and no entry for untyped. If FG doesn't find any of these three types (or there's no type) in the effect modifier entry, then the effect won't be applied.
2) Modifiers don't stack - except untyped modifiers. In theory the ruleset shouldn't allow untyped bonuses - but I've left it there for now, as I think this might have a big effect on people already playing. There's no limit on the level of each bonus type - even though the rules specify a limit (e.g. conditional modifiers range from -4 to +4).
3) PERS (Persistent damage) has been added. PERS behaves like DMGO (which remains for backwards compatibility) - with both of these effects applying the damage at the end of the actors turn as per the RAW. Currently there is no automated roll to remove persistent damage - there will be at some point, please handle it manually for now.
4) WEAK (Weaknesses) has been added. Note - any exceptions should now be parsed correctly.
5) Poison, mental, area and splash added to damage types.
6) Other effects work as per the wiki.
7) Conditions have been started - they work for attacks (both defensive AC conditions and attacker combat roll conditions) and base ability checks (this was a fairly quick and easy one). The others will be worked on going forward...

And... a new, experimental change. I've testing this, but I'm sure there will be some edge case issues that I'll need to iron out...

Saving throws now have additional parameters - allowing "+1 conditional save vs fear" and similar effects.

How do these work? There are 2 areas - the effect itself and the cast action that triggers the save.

Pathfinder 2 makes use of traits to indicate certain aspects of an action, a spell, etc.. So, it is these traits that are used to look for saving throw effects that apply only to certain types of save. Fg adds these traits in 3 ways:

The magic tradition (arcane, divine, occult or primal) that is selected for the spell/power class where the spell resides. There is a new "tradition" button in the spell class header used to set this.
The traits from the spell that the save action is attached to - click the link icon to edit the spell details in the spell class.
A custom "Extra traits" field (similar to damage type for damage actions) is added to the Save section of the cast action.

All of these three areas are combined to create the traits list for the saving throw action. And are listed in the saving throw details in the chat window.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24802

During a saving throw, SAVE effects are parsed now for 4 parameters (#2 - 4 are comma separated, no comma after the bonus/penalty number):

SAVE effect bonus/penalty number
Saving throw type (Fortitude, Reflex or Will - or all if not present).
Bonus type (circumstance, conditional and item)
A trait that this effect applies to.

The usual rules (bonus stacking, etc.) should apply as mentioned above.

Gwydion
September 28th, 2018, 13:33
Awesome! Thanks for these!

UltimateGM
September 28th, 2018, 15:22
Yes, thank you for posting this.

dantedoom
September 29th, 2018, 01:28
Hey Trenloe, are the monsters been automatic parsed for Weakness and Resistance?

Trenloe
September 29th, 2018, 05:21
Hey Trenloe, are the monsters been automatic parsed for Weakness and Resistance?
See info here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45615-Pathfinder-2nd-Edition-Playtest-Monsters-Effects-and-More&p=407214&viewfull=1#post407214 and the exceptions in post #1 above.

Trenloe
October 2nd, 2018, 19:45
Updated for release 3b which went live today.

Datalore
October 2nd, 2018, 21:27
How do I do Protection from Evil? I figured out how to do protection but I cant figure out how to only make it work against evil targets. I tried using "IFT:ALIGN(evil);" but that gave me an error.

Trenloe
October 2nd, 2018, 21:54
How do I do Protection from Evil? I figured out how to do protection but I cant figure out how to only make it work against evil targets.
You can't , not yet.


I tried using "IFT:ALIGN(evil);" but that gave me an error.
ALIGN, SIZE and TYPE won't work currently because there are no specific fields for those in PFRPG2 - they need to be parsed out of the creature traits. It'll come, but not for a while...

I've only done trait entries for saves currently - but these do not include the traits for the creature/PC - just those I detailed above in post #1. I'll have to look at the design carefully to see if it makes sense to expand a save to also include the traits from the creature/PC in the save action. Maybe, but I'll have to check for exceptions... and the playtest rules don't specifically say that spells gain traits from the base caster - see page 194. So I'll probably have to keep the current effect conditional parameters of ALIGN, SIZE and TYPE (but code them to work in the PRPG2 framework), even though all of these will come from the base creature traits (or from fields in the PC sheet for PCs and ALIGN and SIZE).

Datalore
October 2nd, 2018, 22:01
I do not envy you coding this ruleset. So many fidgety bits.

Trenloe
October 2nd, 2018, 22:06
I do not envy you coding this ruleset. So many fidgety bits.
There sure is. Last night I was pretty happy with the save traits code, then during in depth testing I came across lots of little edge cases... I had to re-write the code... it actually made it better, but still... Fun and Games! Or, at least something else beginning with F! ;-)

dantedoom
October 3rd, 2018, 22:18
Really nice work on the conditional saves!

dantedoom
October 5th, 2018, 14:55
Hey sorry to post in a row! Just wanted to add some insight here!

1) I think would be nice if we had "bleed" as a type of damage

2) Would be possible to create an effect that interacts with all proficiency checks? Like PROF: -1 ? There are some effects that decrease your proficiency, so affects all Rolls, AC and DC, Saves

Datalore
October 5th, 2018, 14:59
Hmm, nevermind, ya that needs to be done separately at the moment.

Trenloe
October 5th, 2018, 15:38
Hey sorry to post in a row! Just wanted to add some insight here!
No worries, it's cool. :)


1) I think would be nice if we had "bleed" as a type of damage
Done. With the next release.


2) Would be possible to create an effect that interacts with all proficiency checks? Like PROF: -1 ? There are some effects that decrease your proficiency, so affects all Rolls, AC and DC, Saves
Good idea. Let me think on that... Do you have some examples of the rules/action/spell/feat/whatever that reduces the proficiency bonus please?

Datalore
October 5th, 2018, 15:44
Enervated I think

Trenloe
October 5th, 2018, 15:45
Enervated I think
Thanks. That's a condition, and so would be covered by the "enervated" condition (when it's coded).

Datalore
October 5th, 2018, 15:47
Also, something to lower spell DCs would be good.

Trenloe
October 5th, 2018, 15:52
Also, something to lower spell DCs would be good.
Examples that cause this please. Thanks.

Datalore
October 5th, 2018, 15:55
From the FAQ:

Do conditions that penalize my checks also penalize my DCs?

Yes. Any condition that imposes a penalty on all your checks also applies to your DCs. For example, frightened causes you to take a conditional penalty to your checks, so your AC would take the penalty as well. In this case, specifying “and saves” caused undue confusion—we’ll keep this in mind to ensure the wording of all such conditions will be clearer in the final text.

Trenloe
October 5th, 2018, 15:58
From the FAQ:

Do conditions that penalize my checks also penalize my DCs?

Yes. Any condition that imposes a penalty on all your checks also applies to your DCs. For example, frightened causes you to take a conditional penalty to your checks, so your AC would take the penalty as well. In this case, specifying “and saves” caused undue confusion—we’ll keep this in mind to ensure the wording of all such conditions will be clearer in the final text.
Thanks for that.

This is getting complex... :/

Datalore
October 5th, 2018, 15:59
I agree, hehe

Tell Paizo HERE (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs42aw2?UnEase-of-Play-Conditions-BuffsDebuffs)

UltimateGM
October 5th, 2018, 16:02
I know Ancestral Surge spell on page 204 increases your spell rolls and spell DCs by +1. But the only things I see in the way of reducing spell DCs are really conditions which I am sure you will already be adding into the ruleset when the time comes. One such condition is Stupefied on page 324 of the rulebook "Your thoughts and instincts are clouded. Stupefied always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to the value on spell rolls; spell DCs; and Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks. Anytime you attempt to cast a spell while stupefied, the spell is disrupted unless you succeed at a spell roll against the DC of the effect that gave you the stupefied condition."

Trenloe
October 5th, 2018, 16:05
I know Ancestral Surge spell on page 204 increases your spell rolls and spell DCs by +1. But the only things I see in the way of reducing spell DCs are really conditions which I am sure you will already be adding into the ruleset when the time comes. One such condition is Stupefied on page 324 of the rulebook "Your thoughts and instincts are clouded. Stupefied always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to the value on spell rolls; spell DCs; and Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks. Anytime you attempt to cast a spell while stupefied, the spell is disrupted unless you succeed at a spell roll against the DC of the effect that gave you the stupefied condition."
Thanks! :)

UltimateGM
October 5th, 2018, 16:17
No problem Trenloe. It does seem a bit complex in fact I didn't even know the Bards Inspire Courage and the barbarians rage didnt stack. Seems clunky to me but it seems the link Datalore posted and the information he brought up really makes sense. I like the whole bane and boon thing maybe it will be something similar like buffs and debuffs.

Trenloe
October 7th, 2018, 14:38
Starting to add details of NPC stablock parsing to the Wiki: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/PFRPG2_NPC_Sheet

Note - I'm updating this as I go along, so it might sometimes be 1 week ahead of the current ruleset release.

Kelrugem
October 17th, 2018, 12:22
I've started work on the underlying effects subsystem in the Pathfinder Playtest (PFRGP2) ruleset.

I've copied the current 3.5E/Pathfinder effects Wiki page and I'm updating as I go along. Things updated/changed are marked with ++ in the Wiki page.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/PFRPG2_Effects

At this point, the main things are:
1) Bonus/penalty types: circumstance, conditional, item and no entry for untyped. If FG doesn't find any of these three types (or there's no type) in the effect modifier entry, then the effect won't be applied.
2) Modifiers don't stack - except untyped modifiers. In theory the ruleset shouldn't allow untyped bonuses - but I've left it there for now, as I think this might have a big effect on people already playing. There's no limit on the level of each bonus type - even though the rules specify a limit (e.g. conditional modifiers range from -4 to +4).
3) PERS (Persistent damage) has been added. PERS behaves like DMGO (which remains for backwards compatibility) - with both of these effects applying the damage at the end of the actors turn as per the RAW. Currently there is no automated roll to remove persistent damage - there will be at some point, please handle it manually for now.
4) WEAK (Weaknesses) has been added. Note - any exceptions should now be parsed correctly.
5) Poison, mental, area and splash added to damage types.
6) Other effects work as per the wiki.

And... a new, experimental change. I've testing this, but I'm sure there will be some edge case issues that I'll need to iron out...

Saving throws now have additional parameters - allowing "+1 conditional save vs fear" and similar effects.

How do these work? There are 2 areas - the effect itself and the cast action that triggers the save.

Pathfinder 2 makes use of traits to indicate certain aspects of an action, a spell, etc.. So, it is these traits that are used to look for saving throw effects that apply only to certain types of save. Fg adds these traits in 3 ways:

The magic tradition (arcane, divine, occult or primal) that is selected for the spell/power class where the spell resides. There is a new "tradition" button in the spell class header used to set this.
The traits from the spell that the save action is attached to - click the link icon to edit the spell details in the spell class.
A custom "Extra traits" field (similar to damage type for damage actions) is added to the Save section of the cast action.

All of these three areas are combined to create the traits list for the saving throw action. And are listed in the saving throw details in the chat window.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24802

During a saving throw, SAVE effects are parsed now for 4 parameters (#2 - 4 are comma separated, no comma after the bonus/penalty number):

SAVE effect bonus/penalty number
Saving throw type (Fortitude, Reflex or Will - or all if not present).
Bonus type (circumstance, conditional and item)
A trait that this effect applies to.

The usual rules (bonus stacking, etc.) should apply as mentioned above.

Wow thank you, Trenloe :) Just out of curiosity: In Pathfinder 1 and 3.5e one also often has such boni like "+2 on Saves against Enchantment". Do you think that your development will maybe be patched to the other rulesets as well by the developers? :) Or may this be too difficult? :) Thanks :)

Trenloe
October 17th, 2018, 12:42
Wow thank you, Trenloe :) Just out of curiosity: In Pathfinder 1 and 3.5e one also often has such boni like "+2 on Saves against Enchantment". Do you think that your development will maybe be patched to the other rulesets as well by the developers? :) Or may this be too hard? :) Thanks :)
Maybe... I need to clean it up a bit, but I did have that in the back of my mind and have made changes in the same structure as 3.5E/PF. It's something Moon Wizard and I can discuss in the future when he is less involved with the FGU development.

The biggest issue is actually assigning what the save is against. Especially for PC saves, as most GMs will just as their players to "make a reflex save" and the players do the roll themselves - as most players like it this way, they don't like the dice rolling for them automatically. At present, the PFRGP2 save vs. trait functionality is only possible if the saves are triggered automatically - so the players don't roll. I have some ideas in mind - I don't want to go all the way to a dice-rolling-dialog window popping up, like as in the interesting "request rol (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45234-5E-Request-Roll-Extension-WIP)l" extension (I can see some people would be OK with that, but others wouldn't). But I'm thinking of maybe pushing data to the player clients with details along the lines of "next save rolled has XX, YY, ZZ traits" - and those traits would be applied to the next save rolled by the player. I'd design a little interface for the GM and Players to review the trait data, set/reset, etc.. And maybe extend this to other types of rolls if there's a need.

Kelrugem
October 17th, 2018, 12:49
Maybe... I need to clean it up a bit, but I did have that in the back of my mind and have made changes in the same structure as 3.5E/PF. It's something Moon Wizard and I can discuss in the future when he is less involved with the FGU development.

The biggest issue is actually assigning what the save is against. Especially for PC saves, as most GMs will just as their players to "make a reflex save" and the players do the roll themselves - as most players like it this way, they don't like the dice rolling for them automatically. At present, the PFRGP2 save vs. trait functionality is only possible if the saves are triggered automatically - so the players don't roll. I have some ideas in mind - I don't want to go all the way to a dice-rolling-dialog window popping up, like as in the interesting "request rol (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45234-5E-Request-Roll-Extension-WIP)l" extension (I can see some people would be OK with that, but others wouldn't). But I'm thinking of maybe pushing data to the player clients with details along the lines of "next save rolled has XX, YY, ZZ traits" - and those traits would be applied to the next save rolled by the player. I'd design a little interface for the GM and Players to review the trait data, set/reset, etc.. And maybe extend this to other types of rolls if there's a need.

Thanks for your fast answer :) Sounds very cool and I understand you and the issue that most players want to roll their saves on their own. Then good luck and much success with that :) Your work will surely be appreciated a lot :)

Bidmaron
October 17th, 2018, 20:50
Sounds like an option setting....
Trenloe, I just cannot complement you enough on the fine work you have done here.

madman
October 24th, 2018, 18:49
Do you have plans to put the Athletics check into the Actions for things like Grapple?

Trenloe
October 24th, 2018, 18:53
Do you have plans to put the Athletics check into the Actions for things like Grapple?
Yes, but this is a way off yet.

UltimateGM
November 3rd, 2018, 18:57
Speaking of effects whats the difference in weapon properties and traits. So if I want to bypass a creatures resistance and it only is effected by magical items is it magic or magical and would it go into the properties or traits of the weapon. Also, do I add magic to the weapons damage area or will Fantasy Grounds know that the damage is from a magical weapon? Thanks in advance for the clarification.

Trenloe
November 3rd, 2018, 19:13
Speaking of effects whats the difference in weapon properties and traits. So if I want to bypass a creatures resistance and it only is effected by magical items is it magic or magical and would it go into the properties or traits of the weapon. Also, do I add magic to the weapons damage area or will Fantasy Grounds know that the damage is from a magical weapon? Thanks in advance for the clarification.
For PCs: traits in weapons are only used currently to check for things like expert, master, legendary (when first added to the PC inventory), and additional damage dice on a critical (deadly and fatal). For PC damage, it relies on the damage type being set to magic or magical or spell to count the damage as magic/magical for immune, weakness and resistances. This is done when a weapon is added to the PC's inventory that has a "bonus" value above 0.

Basically, for PCs - check that the damage types for the damage roll include "magic" if the damage is magical. Once the weapon is on the PC sheet, damage types won't be added during a damage roll, except from the DMGTYPE effect.

For NPCs it does look at the traits of the attack (in brackets after the attack string) and will add the "magic" damage type to damage rolled for that attack if a trait of "magic" or "magical" is found in the attack traits.

Hope that answers your question?

UltimateGM
November 3rd, 2018, 20:16
Yes it does answer my questions. Thank you Trenloe!

Trenloe
November 4th, 2018, 12:11
Yes it does answer my questions. Thank you Trenloe!
Correction (highlighted in bold):

For PCs: traits in weapons are only used currently to check for things like expert, master, legendary (when first added to the PC inventory), and additional damage dice on a critical (deadly and fatal). For PC damage, it relies on the damage type being set to magic or magical or spell to count the damage as magic/magical for immune, weakness and resistances. This is done when a weapon is added to the PC's inventory that has a "bonus" value above 0.

Basically, for PCs - check that the damage types for the damage roll include "magic" if the damage is magical. Once the weapon is on the PC sheet, damage types won't be added during a damage roll, except from the DMGTYPE effect.

For NPCs it does look at the traits of the attack (in brackets after the attack string) and will add the "magic" damage type to damage rolled for that attack if a trait of "magic" or "magical" is found in the attack traits - this is currently in the dev version to be released next week. In the current live release it checks for weapon names that begin with a "+" for example: +1 longsword.

Hope that answers your question?

ShadeRaven
November 9th, 2018, 18:01
Wow, Trenloe! Had to take some time off as my wife battles with biopsies and weekly treatments, but the changes in the last few weeks are mind-blowingly awesome!

We got out and made some new characters last night to start doing some more playtesting and did run into one small status effect problem. DMG: 1 did not work with damage output spells.

So a quick example was our Cleric. They chose Healer's Blessing and Undead's Bane for cantrips (amongst some others).

For Healer's Blessing, we gave him an affect to toggle of (Self, Action) HEAL: 2 which works great! Well, except that this bonus is supposed to work on each die roll of a heal. I am not sure how difficult adding a bonus per die toggle would be, but we can just add additional buttons when it's working on a 2nd die, etc.

However, for Undead's Bane, we added to the Heal spell the damage button: 1d8+WIS positive. We then added a button to Undead Bane that was (Self, Single) DMG: 1 which does not work when clicking the blooddrop button for damage on the spell. It does still add damage to things like weapons, etc., but the damage action on the spell list does not activate that effect marker. If our cleric of Sarenrae used his scimitar on an attack while that was still flagged, the +1 damage effect does still work with weapon attacks.

A minor thing compared to all the amazing updates we missed out on, but thought you should know (as it's hopefully a minor fix!).

Trenloe
November 9th, 2018, 18:44
Wow, Trenloe! Had to take some time off as my wife battles with biopsies and weekly treatments, but the changes in the last few weeks are mind-blowingly awesome!
Thanks so much for the nice feedback!

And sorry to hear about what your wife is going through - I hope she gets better soon.


For Healer's Blessing, we gave him an affect to toggle of (Self, Action) HEAL: 2 which works great! Well, except that this bonus is supposed to work on each die roll of a heal. I am not sure how difficult adding a bonus per die toggle would be, but we can just add additional buttons when it's working on a 2nd die, etc.
Yeah, this one is an interesting one. I'll look into the possibility of adding code to apply to every heal dice. I the meantime, the workaround would be to manually adjust the heal actions for that PC.


However, for Undead's Bane, we added to the Heal spell the damage button: 1d8+WIS positive. We then added a button to Undead Bane that was (Self, Single) DMG: 1 which does not work when clicking the blooddrop button for damage on the spell. It does still add damage to things like weapons, etc., but the damage action on the spell list does not activate that effect marker. If our cleric of Sarenrae used his scimitar on an attack while that was still flagged, the +1 damage effect does still work with weapon attacks.
Good catch. It's actually more than just DMG: 1 - no DMG effect will apply if the damage is rolled from a damage action from a spell class in the actions tab.

This introduces a (currently) undocumented effect in the base 3.5E/PF ruleset - DMGS - damage applied to damage rolled from a damage action in a spell class on the actions tab. With DMG being applied to damage rolled from elsewhere. This is a problem (and an issue in the current 3.5E/PFRPG ruleset too). The code should read the "Spell Dmg?" field in the damage action edit window and set the action as spell damage only if that field is set to Yes.

EDIT: There's also another undocumented effect - DMGSTYPE. The same as DMGTYPE but only applies to damage tagged as "Spell Dmg?" = Yes.

Thanks for finding this one! I've logged it as #1.051 in the bug tracker. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tbGSjXB_PrkHJpu5reRqx6KSvJnGkAHkhZhgSpgTjHk/edit#gid=0) I've found the issue and successfully tested a fix. It'll be in the next release.

ShadeRaven
November 9th, 2018, 18:45
Okay, so I was in FG toying around with characters we hope to play tonight and decided I would see if I could address the Shield Reaction (Hardness) damage reduction from both physical shields and things like the Shield Cantrip. Not seeing anything in the PFRPG2 Effects that look suitable, I decided to see if RESIST would work.

Ran into a couple of things there. First the least unusual: if I set someone to RESIST: 4 and then hit them with a sword... it ignored the resist entirely. If I hit them with the sword after changing it to RESIST: 4 slashing, that would work perfectly. It does not appear that RESIST all as an effect works - it has to have the type. I tried it with numerous damage type, even removed the damage type and had it as an untyped damage, and the RESIST: 4 didn't work.

Then I noticed something odd when I was toying around with the RESIST field testing against a fire spell, trying to figure out how resist worked. The only toggle that seems to be working is ALL. One Action (ACTN), One Roll (ROLL), Apply Each Once (SNGL) did not work when it was added to character's effects on the combat tracker. They'd still expire, but they'd have no affect. The weird thing is that things like the AC: 1 circumstance bonus worked regardless of the toggle. I didn't check all different effects, but I checked with AC: 1 and ATK: 1, both seemed to work with the different application type toggles on the effect.

Here's an image of using RESIST: 4 fire using different action toggles:
25261

Not sure what to make of it, but something wonky is going on in there.

As always, thanks for all the hard work!

PS: Any thoughts on how to get an easy use of a Shield's Hardness to reduce damage when someone applies the reaction?