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WESeib
September 27th, 2018, 20:02
I have a relatively dumb question, and yes, those exist.
If I purchase the 5e players handbook, monster manual, dungeon masters guide, etc, through Fantasy Grounds,
what happens if Fantasy Grounds closes.

Can I export these as a PDF? In other words, do I own something, outside of the Fantasy Grounds software?

Is the Fantasy Grounds software installed on my computer with the book stored on my local system so that I can use them any time or is the book stored on a server which I have to go and get?

For instance, let's say I subscribed for a month.
Then I purchased the 5e PH.
I then let my subscription lapse.

Can I read the Players Handbook I purchased?

Thank you in advance. I am trying to absorb all of this.
I am an old player who had a free Roll20 account at the behest of one of my players.
I used it once and never again.

This recent fiasco with their overt censorship reminded me to delete me account.
So, now I am looking at alternatives although all of my games occur physically, I am curious how the licensing for the books work.

ddavison
September 27th, 2018, 20:16
First off, welcome to the Fantasy Grounds forums. See my note below:

What happens depends a bit on the license type.

1. Standard license
a. Your players would already all need their own license to connect to you (no changes there)
b. You would get no new updates to the program or DLC (obviously) but they remain on your system
c. Reinstalling to a new system would be a manual process of copying files from your old system and exporting and pasting in a registry branch which holds your license key and username info
d. Players connecting would need to use your External IP address and you would have to disable the alias feature when hosting a game

2. Ultimate license
a. Your license check would no longer be able to do the Internet check for validity and would downgrade to a Standard license
b. Everything else would be like #1

You didn't specifically ask this, but it is somewhat related.
3. What if Fantasy Grounds lost a publishing license with company A
a. Our licenses are written to allow us to maintain copies on our server for use in re-installation for customers who bought content.
b. No content would ever be removed from a buying customer
c. FG would stop selling products from company A, so only existing customers would be able to access and use those products

It's very standard language to have a "destroy all licensed items" clause in contracts. We specifically pushed for changes to that language for each of our publishers -- even the big ones.

WESeib
September 27th, 2018, 20:22
That is very fair and really good for your users!
I appreciate the response, thank you.

madman
September 27th, 2018, 20:49
Not happy with #2. That sucks.

Madman..

Valyar
September 27th, 2018, 21:17
2. Ultimate license
a. Your license check would no longer be able to do the Internet check for validity and would downgrade to a Standard license
b. Everything else would be like #1


Uhm... will there be a fix in the future versions?

Trenloe
September 27th, 2018, 21:23
Uhm... will there be a fix in the future versions?
Fix? This is deliberate functionality - to limit piracy and also to allow cancelled ultimate subscriptions to actually expire when cancelled.

WESeib
September 27th, 2018, 21:28
If FG were to shut down, what system would it connect to verify your license? They are using a license manager. A lot of major companies use that model.

Hell, Kronos, a massive (international) company that, among other things, produces a time keeping / clock system uses that same model. If they ever vanished, none of the servers would be able to authenticate the license key and they would all fail.

Hell, we've seen issues from when our time clock systems are unable to connect to the license manager due to a DNS server going down, where the whole damn thing fails until it can connect. Actually, more accurately, everything is stored locally until it can connect to the license manager again. It will do that for some max amount of time set by them.

I don't think there is a "fix" for it short of leaving the license manager server up. It is designed that way intentionally. In other words, this part isn't much of a surprise and is a standard in the software industry.

Trenloe
September 27th, 2018, 21:31
If FG were to shut down, what system would it connect to verify your license? They must be using a license manager. A lot of major companies use that model.
The only license check is when:
1) An update is ran.
2) A free (unlicensed) client connects to an ultimate license GM.

If everyone has at least a standard license then there is no license check when gaming. With standard or better licenses you can play on a LAN without any Internet connection, or if the FG ultimate license check server is not accessible. Like Doug mentioned above - the Ultimate license essentially becomes a standard license while it is running a game without the connecting free clients having an Internet connection to the FG update/alias/Ultimate license check server.

Valyar
September 27th, 2018, 21:36
Of course it is deliberate functionality, I am far from the idea that somehow the code arranged itself :)

But I find this not OK as approach for perpetual license owners. If they need to control the subscribers, there are ways to do it without impacting the perpetual licenses. In regards to the piracy... sorry, but I disagree. This limits nothing.

WESeib
September 27th, 2018, 21:36
Trenloe: That was meant as a rhetorical question directed towards the request of a fix in the future.


Of course it is deliberate functionality, I am far from the idea that somehow the code arranged itself
haha, fair enough!

Trenloe
September 27th, 2018, 21:49
Of course it is deliberate functionality, I am far from the idea that somehow the code arranged itself :)

But I find this not OK as approach for perpetual license owners. If they need to control the subscribers, there are ways to do it without impacting the perpetual licenses. In regards to the piracy... sorry, but I disagree. This limits nothing.
SmiteWorks have had issues with piracy in the past (and I'm sure it continues) and this was their solution to the issue. Therefore, they felt this was something that would help them limit a problem they were experiencing, not limit "nothing" as you mention.

So, what do you suggest? Just saying "fix it" isn't a very helpful response to be perfectly honest. What would you class as "fixed"? You're not happy with what you've just discovered, I get that - please make suggestions what would be acceptable to you, while still having some form of license check that would stop people taking advantage too easily.

And please remember this - what we're discussing here is if SmiteWorks suddenly goes away. We're not talking about something suddenly changing while SmiteWorks continue to exist that restricts your current fully-paid license.

damned
September 27th, 2018, 23:58
If SmiteWorks knew that in 3 months they would be shutting their doors Im sure they would work on a solution for the Ultimate thing. As Trenloe points out - the question was if SmiteWorks closed suddenly.

ddavison
September 28th, 2018, 01:48
If SmiteWorks knew that in 3 months they would be shutting their doors Im sure they would work on a solution for the Ultimate thing. As Trenloe points out - the question was if SmiteWorks closed suddenly.

That is correct. Any sort of controlled shutdown would provide opportunity for us to patch that sort of thing out so that people could just use the software however they saw fit. I have a hard time imagining how we'd have anything other than a controlled shutdown -- or even where we would need to shut things down immediately.

Bidmaron
September 28th, 2018, 02:00
I hate to see you contemplating any kind of shutdown, but it is reassuring to know you've thought about how your company would handle it....

lostsanityreturned
September 28th, 2018, 09:10
Honestly if FG ever collapsed I would just distribute cracked clients and data to players if there wasn't some bigger and better VTT out there. I don't see FG going kaput unless some major player comes onto the scene though.

Topdecker
September 28th, 2018, 12:18
My experience with defunct companies that create software that does online checks is that they...

1. Maintain their online element for a while after the company is gone, and then
2. They release a patch or a version that removes or localizes the checks

Developers tend to actually care about how their software is regarded and are often sad that a thing they poured so much effort into is done. (Companies much less so.)

Top

ddavison
September 28th, 2018, 13:29
My experience with defunct companies that create software that does online checks is that they...

1. Maintain their online element for a while after the company is gone, and then
2. They release a patch or a version that removes or localizes the checks

Developers tend to actually care about how their software is regarded and are often sad that a thing they poured so much effort into is done. (Companies much less so.)

Top

^ This.

Thankfully, Fantasy Grounds is owned by two of the developers. In full transparency, Moon Wizard (one of the two owners) does nearly all the FG client programming for the last several years while I focus on content and website stuff.

Even if we somehow disappeared and were unable to release a cracked version, I have no doubt our community that is full of experienced developers would be able to patch it. Our community doesn't spend time looking to crack the client today because they want to support us as a company.

All of this discussion is important in the worst possible case scenario but Fantasy Grounds is still doing better than we've ever done in the past. We could certainly undergo events that drastically impacted our revenue and ability to employ a full staff, but the company could survive in numerous ways.

dulux-oz
September 28th, 2018, 13:36
Our community doesn't spend time looking to crack the client today because they want to support us as a company.

Yes, we don't spend time looking to crack the client. We don't do that at all. Never even think of the merest possibility of that thought crossing our minds. Never.

Hey, look over there... <footsteps running off followed by a door slamming>

:p

epithet
September 28th, 2018, 17:03
That is correct. Any sort of controlled shutdown would provide opportunity for us to patch that sort of thing out so that people could just use the software however they saw fit. I have a hard time imagining how we'd have anything other than a controlled shutdown -- or even where we would need to shut things down immediately.

Zombie apocalypse, man. Zombie freakin' apocalypse.

Edit: Or, y'know...

https://i.stack.imgur.com/XP75n.jpg

Trenloe
September 28th, 2018, 17:08
Zombie apocalypse, man. Zombie freakin' apocalypse.

Edit: Or, y'know...

https://i.stack.imgur.com/XP75n.jpg
Haha - that's when we stop using FG and LARP takes over... ;)

Valatar
September 28th, 2018, 18:11
There will always be people who pirate, but I at least like to believe that the majority of people using FG know it's a small shop that needs support from its userbase and would pay for it even without security measures in place. That might be a smidgen overly optimistic.

ddavison
September 28th, 2018, 18:13
Zombie apocalypse, man. Zombie freakin' apocalypse.



I think that RPG gamers are more adequately prepared to deal with and maybe even thrive in any sort of zombie apocalypse situation. :D

Trenloe
September 28th, 2018, 18:15
That might be a smidgen overly optimistic.
Just a bit. ;)

Like I mentioned earlier on in this thread - SmiteWorks have had issues with piracy in the past, and I'm sure they continue to have issues. In fact, I've seen an article today where someone suggests that if you look hard enough you can find FG D&D material out there for a lot cheaper than it is in the FG store or Steam.

LordEntrails
September 28th, 2018, 18:57
There will always be people who pirate, but I at least like to believe that the majority of people using FG know it's a small shop that needs support from its userbase and would pay for it even without security measures in place. That might be a smidgen overly optimistic.
Unfortunately I have to agree with Trenloe on this :(

Without intentionally meaning too, I've found my own material that I publish on the DMsGuild on a pirate site. I mean, if someone is going to pirate a FG module that lists at $1.95, they will steal most anything.

Gamers are notorious for wanting to play for free. It's part of our culture :(

Andraax
September 28th, 2018, 20:26
On the flip side, if someone is going to use a stolen module that only cost $1.95, then it's unlikely they would have paid for it to start with - no matter the price.

LordEntrails
September 28th, 2018, 20:44
On the flip side, if someone is going to use a stolen module that only cost $1.95, then it's unlikely they would have paid for it to start with - no matter the price.
Agreed and understood :)

damned
September 29th, 2018, 00:06
On the flip side, if someone is going to use a stolen module that only cost $1.95, then it's unlikely they would have paid for it to start with - no matter the price.

which still doesnt make it ok...

Andraax
September 29th, 2018, 02:39
which still doesnt make it ok...

I never said it was. It does not, however, represent a "lost sale" either.

lostsanityreturned
September 29th, 2018, 04:27
I wish I could convince more of my players to actually purchase content.

The one downside of getting an ultimate license. I do hope we get some sort of FG / Beyond thing going on at some point, as I could better convince people to get player content if there was some sort of cross interaction. But I don't expect it.

That said, I have the same issue with physical books of RPG systems too "but you have it, why do I need it" kinda attitude.

dulux-oz
September 29th, 2018, 05:36
I think that RPG gamers are more adequately prepared to deal with and maybe even thrive in any sort of zombie apocalypse situation. :D

24763

Valatar
September 29th, 2018, 06:06
I wish I could convince more of my players to actually purchase content.

The one downside of getting an ultimate license. I do hope we get some sort of FG / Beyond thing going on at some point, as I could better convince people to get player content if there was some sort of cross interaction. But I don't expect it.

That said, I have the same issue with physical books of RPG systems too "but you have it, why do I need it" kinda attitude.

What content, you mean like adventures you're running through? Tell the lazy bums to pitch in, it's more than fair to split the cost of an adventure if the GM's specifically bought it for the players to play through. It's not like they're that expensive, split four or five ways it's a negligible cost if you all split it evenly.

shadzar
September 29th, 2018, 12:59
RPGs have always been a GM expense. That is why GMing is a labor of love, because it is a thankless full-time job. If you aren't willing wanting to do it, then make someone else.

lostsanityreturned
September 30th, 2018, 14:51
RPGs have always been a GM expense. That is why GMing is a labor of love, because it is a thankless full-time job. If you aren't willing wanting to do it, then make someone else.
So my wishing that players would buy their own PHBs and standard licenses support the hobby has resulted in you telling me not to be a DM? I am going to disagree with that philosophy.


What content, you mean like adventures you're running through? Tell the lazy bums to pitch in, it's more than fair to split the cost of an adventure if the GM's specifically bought it for the players to play through. It's not like they're that expensive, split four or five ways it's a negligible cost if you all split it evenly.
The core books, things they use for their characters. I have no issue buying adventures and all the content I run with, but it means that for the large number of players I have brought into playing on fantasygrounds only a small minority have actually supported the hobby by spending money. The rest have just happily taken what they got for free and that makes me sad.

shadzar
October 1st, 2018, 00:00
So my wishing that players would buy their own PHBs and standard licenses support the hobby has resulted in you telling me not to be a DM? I am going to disagree with that philosophy.

then don't complain the players want to borrow books from the DM... the DM has ALL the books. rarely did a DM not have a book the player was using somthing out of.

Why should a playr buy a book for 2 paragraphs in it for a character they are only using this weekend? so for one class they have to buy a whole book for?

the DM has the book, they can share it. You ca';t expect every player to shell out %50 for a single class.

and FG is made to where you get to share the same book with ALL the players at the same time, and STILL get to use it yourself since it loads on the table. so it isnt like they are taking the book home and you cant read it. so you really have LESS to complain about it when it comes to FG since you arent being deprived of anything except the money you were going to have to spend ont he book anyway if YOU wnted to use it.

and FG the players, if they are not DMs, really have no need for the books since EVERYTHING load from the DMs table, and if YOU import a character with books not loadd on your table but a player had opened to create the character on their table, it might corrupt the character file....

and this is all BEFORE FG goes away, cause that is how it works now while FG servers are still up and running, and i doubt Doug could unlock the vault since it is mostly thigns owned by WotC and licensed for works to use,.

so if your players DO buy a book, you wont have access to it on YOUR FG account, unless you log into their table.

FG is made so th GM table shares EVERYTHING to all the players connected, the players never need to buy a single book to play, because FG ignores EVERYTHING from the players program. the themes, which options are on.. the colors.. everything is on the GMs table, the player can only log into it and use books from the GMs library.

EDIT: there is the whole "paid to GM" thing floating around here somewhere if you want some money back for GMing...

lostsanityreturned
October 1st, 2018, 02:47
"I wish I could convince more of my players to actually purchase content."
This was my stance, that you have flown off and attacked me for.

My reasoning for the stance is that I would like the hobby to be supported further as it is a niche industry and the DM only purchasing content limits the income stream for FG and the core rules.

I was at no point "complaining" to any major degree, again, hence the use of the word wish.


then don't complain the players want to borrow books from the DM... the DM has ALL the books. rarely did a DM not have a book the player was using somthing out of.
I never complained that the players wanted to borrow books.



Why should a playr buy a book for 2 paragraphs in it for a character they are only using this weekend? so for one class they have to buy a whole book for?

the DM has the book, they can share it. You ca';t expect every player to shell out %50 for a single class.
Two paragraphs and one weekend? where did this come from. I am talking about players that play with me for years and use classes, feat, background, spell and rule reference. Again It is still a WISH for them to support the industry and put back into the community, not a complaint.
And every player? again where is this coming from?


and FG is made to where you get to share the same book with ALL the players at the same time, and STILL get to use it yourself since it loads on the table. so it isnt like they are taking the book home and you cant read it. so you really have LESS to complain about it when it comes to FG since you arent being deprived of anything except the money you were going to have to spend ont he book anyway if YOU wnted to use it.
What? Again not related to anything I said. I bought the ultimate edition for a reason.




and FG the players, if they are not DMs, really have no need for the books since EVERYTHING load from the DMs table, and if YOU import a character with books not loadd on your table but a player had opened to create the character on their table, it might corrupt the character file....
Again, not relevant.



and this is all BEFORE FG goes away, cause that is how it works now while FG servers are still up and running, and i doubt Doug could unlock the vault since it is mostly thigns owned by WotC and licensed for works to use,.

so if your players DO buy a book, you wont have access to it on YOUR FG account, unless you log into their table.

FG is made so th GM table shares EVERYTHING to all the players connected, the players never need to buy a single book to play, because FG ignores EVERYTHING from the players program. the themes, which options are on.. the colors.. everything is on the GMs table, the player can only log into it and use books from the GMs library.
Yes? I don't get what you are saying I have every book I want that was never something I b



EDIT: there is the whole "paid to GM" thing floating around here somewhere if you want some money back for GMing...
I don't, I never mentioned wanting money and money for me was never a part of the discussion.

Andraax
October 1st, 2018, 03:19
Again It is still a WISH for them to support the industry and put back into the community, not a complaint.

Shadzar doesn't use FG, he just comes around to annoy people on the forums, seems to be his hobby.

Anyway, I probably buy enough to replace a half dozen other people who don't buy. :-)

Moon Wizard
October 1st, 2018, 04:22
As always, let's keep the discussion civil, and not make statements intended to cause conflict. We welcome multiple points of view; and try to keep a light touch on the forums.

I've sent a PM to shadzar asking him to tone down his level of discussion.

Thanks all,
JPG

Valatar
October 1st, 2018, 05:16
To be fair, Fantasy Ground's architecture gives little benefit to a player who buys content. They can view it while disconnected from the GM, and the GM can authorize their modules to work in the GM's game if the player has something the GM doesn't, but by and large a player isn't gonna really get anything if they go and buy the bulk of the modules in the store. It would be cool if a player had such a good time that they wanted to throw money at FG or at the content makers, and I still think that the players and GM should evenly split the cost of something like an adventure module if the GM buys it for the players to play, but the whole angle of FG's design philosophy seems to be to shield players from as much financial burden as possible.

damned
October 1st, 2018, 08:37
I always encourage players in my games to buy a license even of they are only ever going to play with me on my ultimate.
I also encourage them to give GMing a go - even if it is just a one or two session game.

Sigurd
August 19th, 2019, 23:24
That is correct. Any sort of controlled shutdown would provide opportunity for us to patch that sort of thing out so that people could just use the software however they saw fit. I have a hard time imagining how we'd have anything other than a controlled shutdown -- or even where we would need to shut things down immediately.


I seriously hope you guys are around for good. You've added heaps of quality and functionality to the program and enriched my table. Thank ye!

dulux-oz
August 20th, 2019, 04:20
Thinking about things, I'm pretty sure we (the Community) could put together some sort of entity to take over from /buy out SmioteWorks and keep thing going.

There are enough professional coders, web developers, network engineers, project managers, CIO/CTOs, and CEOs in the Community that I'd be surprised if something couldn't be worked out. (Hell, that describes me alone.)

deer_buster
August 20th, 2019, 17:40
Regardless of how you obtain it if you like it enough to use it you'll probably end up buying it anyway (e.g. Rob2e, etc.). As a matter of fact, Factorio developers have said that they figure piracy has resulted in more purchases than advertising...if people like what they get they are very likely to support the developers. And to be honest, if you don't like FantasyGrounds once you have tried it, then you probably have a pre-conceived bias anyway.

<rant>I just wish the DMsGuild material could update automatically too because it starts to become a pain in the arse when you<rant> have many items that you have to check, then re-download them, etc.</rant>

Also, I am in the camp that would prefer that the perpetual licenses wouldn't have to check anything ever (even now). I can understand the subscription licenses checking.

Having said that, keep your resources working on FGU, and only critical updates to FGC :)

deer_buster
August 20th, 2019, 17:41
Thinking about things, I'm pretty sure we (the Community) could put together some sort of entity to take over from /buy out SmioteWorks and keep thing going.

There are enough professional coders, web developers, network engineers, project managers, CIO/CTOs, and CEOs in the Community that I'd be surprised if something couldn't be worked out. (Hell, that describes me alone.)

As a professional software engineer, I'd be hip to that jive...

ddavison
August 20th, 2019, 17:47
I'm not sure what sometimes causes these sort of questions to pop up. SmiteWorks is doing very well as a company. You might as well ask "how can I play FG if a massive asteroid strikes the earth and cripples our infrastructure?"

:)

Bidmaron
August 20th, 2019, 17:54
Plus you have already answered the question.

The High Druid
August 20th, 2019, 18:46
I'm not sure what sometimes causes these sort of questions to pop up. SmiteWorks is doing very well as a company. You might as well ask "how can I play FG if a massive asteroid strikes the earth and cripples our infrastructure?"

:)

I think it's a combination of things. WotC et al. can't come round your house and clear out your bookshelf if they happen to go under. D&D beyond is totally at the whim of curse, and could be turned off at any time, likewise for Roll20. Microsoft recently shut down their eBook service and removed access to all the books customers had purchased (they refunded, but you know the books were still gone) and Amazon and Apple have both had incidents of removing purchased items from customer's devices. A lot of roleplayers are very much also collectors, and are concerned that their collection is "safe".

Bidmaron
August 20th, 2019, 20:22
That is the great thing about FG. the stuff is resident on your computer. They can’t come in and wipe that away. The only risk is the license check, which they have promised to disable if they went under (and even if they didn’t some hacker could kill it and probably already has for pirates)

LordEntrails
August 20th, 2019, 21:24
I'm not sure what sometimes causes these sort of questions to pop up. SmiteWorks is doing very well as a company. You might as well ask "how can I play FG if a massive asteroid strikes the earth and cripples our infrastructure?"

:)
Ok, so how do we keep playing after an asteroid strikes earth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWzxq0aCfLE

Might have to go back and use a radio type modem, but I'm sure we can figure it out!

Andraax
August 20th, 2019, 21:27
Amazon and Apple have both had incidents of removing purchased items from customer's devices

Amazon has, AFAICR, only done this once, with a book that was a copyright violation. And they replaced the book, free of charge, with a copy that had no copyright problems. The only thing customers lost were notes or bookmarks they had added.