How poor customer services can effect your brand

[Seya]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9iwarj/after_5_years_on_roll20_i_just_cancelled_and?sort= confidence

Why customer response is key. I love how the fantasy grounds team handles us.
Hopefully some of these people quitting roll20 will come to fantasy grounds.

[MysticCelt]

So there are a few things any small gaming company can learn from this. One is that putting your STEM people in charge of customer service is, generally speaking, not a great idea. Developers are often too close to the product they create to effectively and fairly manage criticism. This is especially true as a platform grows. Companies should look for community engagement and customer service professionals and hire them to deal with irate, frustrated, and scared customers. I'm not sure exactly how Fantasy Grounds handles this. There doesn't seem to have been any major fiascos like the one Roll20 is going through right now (at least not in recent history). But it would be a good idea for any company in this space to learn from the situation Roll20 finds themselves in. Keep your developers developing, and out of the customer service side. This isn't the first time problems like this have hit a company. RIOT, Valve, and Blizzard all come to mind as far as customer service fiascos I have personally witnessed. Almost always it went fiasco-hire community engagement professionals. But if the fiasco step can be fixed, it's better for everybody.

[shadzar]

From a business perspective, now is the time for JPG and Doug to offer free 90 standard license to anyone moving from roll20 to FG to capitalize on the negative view of roll20 right now. guerrilla tactics FTW.

[romelwell]

From a business perspective, now is the time for JPG and Doug to offer free 90 standard license to anyone moving from roll20 to FG to capitalize on the negative view of roll20 right now. guerrilla tactics FTW.

True. My group has had ongoing discussions all day about FG vs MapTools. I'm pretty sure I have enough good will with them to install FG and give it a go in a trial-run scenario/encounter. There is some concern, however, about the learning curve for players new to FG...

[shadzar]

the learning curve for players new to FG...

https://fantasygroundscollege.net has that covered for you.

[LordEntrails]

To me, this is more than just not having developers dealing with customers (because that's how it's currently done with FG), but rather attitude and personality of the people at the top.

I truly believe that a company's culture comes from the top, with Roll20 this is Nolan, Riley, & Richard. We see how Nolan responds in this case. I don't have any experience with Riley or Richard. Now, it doesn't mean that any of them are not nice guys, smart, capable, etc. But, they have setup a company culture that is defensive and intolerant of criticism. This behavior from their staff is nothing new.

Compare that to how Doug and John behave on the forums here. They are not defensive, they don't take an active hand in moderating, they always try to be helpful. And when appropriate, they are often transparent (look at the recent bundle change discussion).

To me, this is just a very visible demonstration of the differences between the people at the top.

[Nylanfs]

And a moderation change.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9iwjwd/read_this/e6n4bgx/

[celestian]

Compare that to how Doug and John behave on the forums here. They are not defensive, they don't take an active hand in moderating, they always try to be helpful. And when appropriate, they are often transparent (look at the recent bundle change discussion).

I've only been around a little over a year and I have been very happy to see how they speak to their customers and forum goers.

[LordEntrails]

I've only been around a little over a year and I have been very happy to see how they speak to their customers and forum goers.
Just a year? wow, you've done a lot in a year!

[Bidmaron]

Puts me to shame!

[JohnD]

True. My group has had ongoing discussions all day about FG vs MapTools. I'm pretty sure I have enough good will with them to install FG and give it a go in a trial-run scenario/encounter. There is some concern, however, about the learning curve for players new to FG...

Basic usage can be taught in around 75-90 minutes, including character creation and mock combat, skill rolls, saving throws, etc....

[Ken L]

One is that putting your STEM people in charge of customer service is...

Nolan isn't even a software dev IIRC. Riley developed the system before jumping ship into Orbus VR and abandoned Roll20 to Steven K. whom became the main dev afterwards. I don't know what happened after that as I left around that time.

[celestian]

Just a year? wow, you've done a lot in a year!

Well, a little over a year and a half now probably. I signed up January 2017 but didn't go both feet until around March I think?

I'd been using Maptools for years and wrote a framework there for AD&D also. Once I figured out the way FG worked it was like "freedom!". In that time both Doug and JPG have both went out of their way to be helpful. Moon has saved my sanity a lot in the Workshop forums more than once. I do owe him a drink if I ever get the chance to meet him face to face.

[MysticCelt]

Nolan isn't even a software dev IIRC. Riley developed the system before jumping ship into Orbus VR and abandoned Roll20 to Steven K. whom became the main dev afterwards. I don't know what happened after that as I left around that time.

Wow so... he's just a **** then. Well that brings me to another business principle. "Don't put a **** in charge of PR/CR"

[Seya]

What a storm the thread has 48500 up votes and nolands reply is the 3rd most downvoted post in the history of reddit

[dulux-oz]

I do owe him (Moon) a drink if I ever get the chance to meet him face to face.

You and me both!

[LordEntrails]

I do owe him a drink if I ever get the chance to meet him face to face.

You and me both!
Don't we all?

[ThisOldGM]

Greetings.

I am one of the potential refugees. I have one active game on 'the other guys' and after the third blow up by Mr N, I'm looking hard at Fantasy Grounds. So, yes, this lovely adventure of today is having an effect on at least one game master.

[dulux-oz]

Greetings.

I am one of the potential refugees. I have one active game on 'the other guys' and after the third blow up by Mr N, I'm looking hard at Fantasy Grounds. So, yes, this lovely adventure of today is having an effect on at least one game master.

You can say "Roll20" here. Heck, you can say "Maptools" and all the others as well - we ain't Roll20 :)

Seriously, welcome! Let me also say this - If you haven't done so already, let me encourage you to take a look at some of the great Tutorial Videos available on the Fantasy Grounds Wiki (and on YouTube). Damn's are good, as are Xorn's, and people seem to like mine as well (mine are also available from the links in my sig, below).

Start with the ones on the CoreRPG, because the CoreRPG forms the foundation of just about all the RPGs we play with Fantasy Grounds - so by learning how to use FG with the CoreRPG you'll learn about 80% of what you'll need to know to play any RPG with Fantasy Grounds. Once you've gone through the CoreRPG Videos you can then go on to Videos about your chosen RPG.

When you get familiar with the basic Fantasy Grounds product the next step is to check out some of the Extensions (Plug-Ins) for FG, such as the DOE: Sound (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?31369-DOE-Sound-Extension), DOE: Locations (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20794-DOE-Locations-Extension), DOE: Weather (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22142-DOE-Weather-Extension) and DOE: Organisations (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27169-DOE-Organisations-Extension) Extensions (to name a but a few - and a Shameless™ Self Plug).

You may also want to drop into the FG College (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40020-Join-Fantasy-Grounds-College-Learn-Fantasy-Grounds-learn-D-amp-D-and-then-play!); a great place for newcomers to get started.

And of course, there's plenty of Twitch Channels where you can watch games in progress (including my own - https://www.twitch.tv/dulux_oz - another Shameless™ Self Plug).

And keep on asking questions - we're a pretty friendly lot here, and we love answering questions.

Cheers

[Wolfheart]

In addition to take advantage of this, I hope the team also looks at what people answer when other people ask about Fantasy Grounds as an alternative to Roll20. There is a lot to be gleaned.

[Valyar]

Nice video from big rpg channel moving from Roll20 to FG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK-H0dDeG38

[shadzar]

Dawnforge already left roll20 for FG a while back, they just took this chance and fiasco to go into further depth why they did it to highlight other problems at roll20 to keep the dumpster fire burning.

[Seya]

Quote from a guy that Roll20 banned


I'll be honest, I kind of suspect my account to be banned when I go look at Roll20 when I go look next. I'm repeating my opinion I had over a year ago here today in the belief that my Roll20 account won't be banned. That hopefully we have some semblance of a community discussion now.

I had an opinion on Tomb of Horrors under the bugs and feedback thread they had for it. The Roll20 dev argued that the maps (which showed the traps and secret doors on the player version) were the way it was meant to be played. The Tomb of Horrors came out in in the 1970s. I commented that there was no way anyone on staff would know how it was originally meant to be played and could only speculate. Regardless it still doesn't address the fact that we as a community buy Roll20 modules expecting them to be immediately playable. By leaving all the traps and secrets on the map I argued it was not playable imagine running ToH a trap heavy dungeon that shows every trap and secret....they shut me down saying that was the way it was meant to be played because that's the map they received. Back then a lot of this was theater of the mind or we would draw the dungeon.

I was banned for 1 month for that comment. It was an "attack". This was on my main account with everything I bought.

I came here to voice my grievance with the community and honestly believed that such reactions were abnormal and harsh, that the mod responsible should be fired.

I received a 1 year ban. To my main account.

I then turned to one of the various dnd subs and commented there.

I received additional ban time. Again my main account.

The entire time I contacted via their own rules and suggestions the email seeking a more reasonable and customer service oriented person I never received one return email saying they upheld the ban and rejected my request. Not one word returned after numerous emails.

This isn't isolated. This isn't a one time thing. It's something they have ALWAYS done and something they have ALWAYS gotten away with. If they wouldn't have responded like they did in my case there would probably be no discussion about their behavior.

Don't make the mistake of believing that this happened to ONE person.

[shadzar]

Yeah they don't know anything about D&D.. as i puleld the "meme" image from, they started wanting to include board games on roll20 and even have backgammon and Catan coded into it, but probably not accesible due to lack of licensing. Just like FG, the plug was pulled on board gmes for that sweet sweet WotC license.

But roll20 has never been able to admit fault intheir modules, be it line of sight in poor coded dynamic lighting on maps, missing information from NPCs, etc. at least FG takes community mods like Z's maps and ads them to things like Dragon Heist when they decide. "This map given is garbage, we should strive to do better and give something more IF the userbase wishes to use it."


seriously. i need a rofl emote.. someone edit this outdated vbulletin board or have Jelsoft or whoever owns it now to include more emotes....


roll20 survived from one reason, they had Soundcloud incident where they violated API, and almost lost all sound functions in roll20, and many more things.. and now roll20 will collapse for one reason. unless they pull a Papa John's and boot the owner from the company.

[Trenloe]

I very much doubt roll20 will collapse. Sure, a bunch of long standing users will look elsewhere for a while, some will stop using roll20. It won’t collapse. The majority of the people who use it won’t be on the forums, won’t be aware or even interested, won’t want to make changes to their currently running campaign. As has been mentioned in this thread, it’s not the first time users of roll20 have been banned/treated poorly for providing feedback roll20 didn’t want to hear, and I’m sure it won’t be the last.

Time will tell... but I’m sure roll20 will continue...

[Valyar]

They need more spectacular fails in order to start losing critical mass. Until it is free - it will stay.

[Xydonus]

I very much doubt roll20 will collapse. Sure, a bunch of long standing users will look elsewhere for a while, some will stop using roll20. It won’t collapse. The majority of the people who use it won’t be on the forums, won’t be aware or even interested, won’t want to make changes to their currently running campaign. As has been mentioned in this thread, it’s not the first time users of roll20 have been banned/treated poorly for providing feedback roll20 didn’t want to hear, and I’m sure it won’t be the last.

Time will tell... but I’m sure roll20 will continue...

Yep - It's a massive PR disaster for Roll20, and they will likely lose some income from this in the short-term. But generally speaking, most people will continue to use Roll20. Not all of them will probably remain subs. I know one GM who has quit being a subscriber to Roll20 due to this fiasco, but he's still going to use the free version to continue his games and I'm still going to use roll20 to play in those said games.

Wouldn't be the first time I've used a product owned by a group of assholes.

[viresanimi]

What a dumpster fire!

Glad to say that I've never had anything but the most respectful reactions from the people at Smiteworks. I've literally had Moonwizard fix a bug I reported within 45 mins of me posting it. The devs here really really listen to the community, when they get feedback.

I hope anyone coming here from R20 will have a great time. This is just about the friendliest corner on the internet.


Vires Animi

[Valyar]

Wouldn't be the first time I've used a product owned by a group of assholes.
I say this too when I look at my iPhone and iPad... :(

[shadzar]

They need more spectacular fails in order to start losing critical mass. Until it is free - it will stay.

WebDM, Nerdarchy, Dawnforge Cast, Talking20, and a few other not smaller youtubers just dropped roll20. many of them have large "blog" followings. so if the number of downvotes on the NolanT post even half leave. that will be 30k subs lost.


that is enough to put a financial hit on them that might shake things as violently as just happened to TellTale Games... and word is spreading faster to more corners, social media sites, etc.

it is only getting bigger since it all exploded on reddit, and reddit spreads through the internet like a wildfire. i i figure ENWorld wont be long to have something about it, if it doesn't alrady, as well lots of other people catch wind of it. this fire is only starting, the blaze hasnt happens yet from how i see it.

[Valyar]

If number equal to half of NolanT downvoters leave, but they are free subscribers, then I believe Roll20 won't care and be probably happy that less people consume their resources.
I am curious on the numbers that stated they are leaving and what % of them will really drop this product permanently, or react impulsively. Unfortunately I think we will never know, unless Roll20 closes tomorrow. :D

[Valatar]

It's not that simple, though. The 'free' users are the ones powering their whole business model. Take my (made-up) numbers here, say that they have 100,000 free users and 10,000 paying users. 50,000 free users walk out. No loss, right? They weren't paying customers. Except now it becomes much harder to find people to play and run games on their service. The 10,000 paying users are now more likely to walk as well when they can't get enough people for their games.

[Valyar]

Yes, I overlooked this possibility. I was looking from different angle.

[LordEntrails]

It's not that simple, though. The 'free' users are the ones powering their whole business model. Take my (made-up) numbers here, say that they have 100,000 free users and 10,000 paying users. 50,000 free users walk out. No loss, right? They weren't paying customers. Except now it becomes much harder to find people to play and run games on their service. The 10,000 paying users are now more likely to walk as well when they can't get enough people for their games.
You missed another aspect, those free users are part of the Roll20 product. Not just in a player base for the paying customers, but for the ad revue they generate every time they log into Roll20. So, fewer free players is less ad revenue.

Remember, when the service is free, YOU are the product.

[Krael]

Hello everyone! another transplant from 'the incident'.

Had an account forever here, but never did much with it (was way too long ago to remember why), but definitely like what I see these days.

Thanks for the advice on tutorials, time to start deep diving in, and rolling some dice!

[dulux-oz]

Hi Krael, and Welcome! (back) to the Community :)

[GunnarGreybeard]

Had an account forever here, but never did much with it (was way too long ago to remember why), but definitely like what I see these days.

Wow, since 2006! That's like a whole generation ago. :D

[Dark Angel]

I still use roll20. But I canceled my paid subscription. If they can be proper, I'll consider a paid subscription. But for now, I'm not giving them money.

[Krael]

Wow, since 2006! That's like a whole generation ago. :D

Old guard, UNITE! ;)

[LordEntrails]

I still use roll20. But I canceled my paid subscription. If they can be proper, I'll consider a paid subscription. But for now, I'm not giving them money.
One thing I like to point out in situations like your, and I hope you take this in the positive manner it is intended, (even saying that makes me worried it won't be!), even using the free Roll20 account still makes Roll20 money, because of the ads they place. Second, I always advise people to remember, when a service is free, that means you are the product. (Remember Cambridge Analytics?)

[romelwell]

Old guard, UNITE! ;)

indeed!

[Urqy]

New face here. I was a five year paying customer (pro) at Roll20 but am migrating to FG now. I started playing with the system on Friday night and am "all in" at this point for games that I run. I've watched a few of DDM Dave's tutorial FG videos as well as Taking20's (Cody) FG tutorials and that was enough to convince me. (The same guys that taught me how to use Roll20 years ago) In three days I have recreated the 5e campaign I am running on Saturday nights and hope to try it out this weekend using FG. Once you start playing around with FG it becomes really intuitive. I really am impressed with how polished this system is compared to Roll20.
The only downside I've run into so far is with regards to port forwarding. I've found links with various options and solutions and think I have a solution that works for me now. The community assistance here is pretty awesome!
And finally, the incident(s) alone didn't drive me from Roll20. They were just the proverbial straws on the camel's back. Unresolved tech issues, cost, and Nolan's antics all worked together to pave the road toward FG. The polish on this system is really refreshing.

[LordEntrails]

New face here. .... The polish on this system is really refreshing.
Welcome to the Community and FG. Always nice to hear someone happy and excited about FG :)

[dulux-oz]

Hi Urgy, and Welcome! to the Community,

If you haven't done so already, let me encourage you to also take a look at some of the great Tutorial Videos available on the Fantasy Grounds Wiki (and on YouTube). Damn's are good, as are Xorn's, and people seem to like mine as well (mine are also available from the links in my sig, below).

Start with the ones on the CoreRPG, because the CoreRPG forms the foundation of just about all the RPGs we play with Fantasy Grounds - so by learning how to use FG with the CoreRPG you'll learn about 80% of what you'll need to know to play any RPG with Fantasy Grounds. Once you've gone through the CoreRPG Videos you can then go on to Videos about your chosen RPG.

When you get familiar with the basic Fantasy Grounds product the next step is to check out some of the Extensions (Plug-Ins) for FG, such as the DOE: Sound (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?31369-DOE-Sound-Extension), DOE: Locations (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20794-DOE-Locations-Extension), DOE: Weather (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22142-DOE-Weather-Extension) and DOE: Organisations (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27169-DOE-Organisations-Extension) Extensions (to name a but a few - and a Shameless™ Self Plug).

You may also want to drop into the FG College (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40020-Join-Fantasy-Grounds-College-Learn-Fantasy-Grounds-learn-D-amp-D-and-then-play!); a great place for newcomers to get started.

And of course, there's plenty of Twitch Channels where you can watch games in progress (including my own - https://www.twitch.tv/dulux_oz - another Shameless™ Self Plug).

And keep on asking questions - we're a pretty friendly lot here, and we love answering questions.

Cheers

[Three of Swords]

As a Roll20 convert, if you're a 5e player, the first extension I recommend is Ken's Advanced Kombat extension. It can be found at:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?44343-Extension-Advanced-Kombat-(5E)

It adds some elements that make FG act a little more like Roll20 (in a good way).

[Seya]

I'm glad you guys are enjoying Fantasy Grounds

[JohnQPublic]

As a Roll20 convert, if you're a 5e player, the first extension I recommend is Ken's Advanced Kombat extension. It can be found at:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?44343-Extension-Advanced-Kombat-(5E)

It adds some elements that make FG act a little more like Roll20 (in a good way).

How did I not know about this?! Looks great, testing it this week.

[Urqy]

Thanks very much for the info on the tutorial videos and Ken's AK extension!

[Grommit57]

I had a hardcore roll20 player in my game last weekend. He went home after Saturday night and Sunday morning bought an Ultimate Lic. Now I'd like to think it was my DM'ing that sold him but I'm sure it was the software. I've been spending a lot of time at FGC so the game is going much smoother now.

[CrawlingChaox]

I had a hardcore roll20 player in my game last weekend. He went home after Saturday night and Sunday morning bought an Ultimate Lic. Now I'd like to think it was my DM'ing that sold him but I'm sure it was the software. I've been spending a lot of time at FGC so the game is going much smoother now.
Yeah, this is the best ad Fantasy Grounds could ask for. Word-of-mouth and setting examples can't reach as many people as, say, a YouTube video, but when it does reach someone it works wonders.

[Seya]

I had a hardcore roll20 player in my game last weekend. He went home after Saturday night and Sunday morning bought an Ultimate Lic. Now I'd like to think it was my DM'ing that sold him but I'm sure it was the software. I've been spending a lot of time at FGC so the game is going much smoother now.

That's great to hear. Hopefully with the FG con we can get some more new players to experience Fantasy Grounds

[JohnD]

I had a hardcore roll20 player in my game last weekend. He went home after Saturday night and Sunday morning bought an Ultimate Lic. Now I'd like to think it was my DM'ing that sold him but I'm sure it was the software. I've been spending a lot of time at FGC so the game is going much smoother now.

No reason it couldn't have been both!

[DragonsDen13]

Yeah, this is the best ad Fantasy Grounds could ask for. Word-of-mouth and setting examples can't reach as many people as, say, a YouTube video, but when it does reach someone it works wonders.

The old saying for me (when I was in sales), it takes 7 happy customers to equal 1 unhappy customer. Word of mouth is the best advertising there is. A happy customer will tell one or a few people but an unhappy customer will tell everybody they can. So, always try your best to resolve customer issues in a manner that the customer finds palatable. And this doesn't even have to be the solution the customer really wants but just one they will be "not unhappy with". Everyone wins when you work with your customers; not against them.