When the walled garden backfires [Archive] - Fantasy Grounds Message Boards

Ken L

September 26th, 2018, 12:59

So Roll20 is having a really bad day it seems. It banned someone for criticizing the platform; a paying subscriber in fact.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9iwarj/after_5_years_on_roll20_i_just_cancelled_and/?utm_source=reddit-android

It's kind of a 'I told you so' as I got email about when I left roll20, and my 'cryptic' profile message. This just validates it. If you're curious about my message, look up my profile (same name) on Roll20.

dulux-oz

September 26th, 2018, 13:22

Oh sh!t - someone has *really* shot themselves in the foot over that one.

As one of the Mods here I can tell you I'm pretty sure none of us would do something like this - and then make it worse. We'd at least hand it off to one of our fellow Mods and let them fix the issue.

Doug has also said to "keep a light touch" on Modding - but we don't have too, because practically all of the FG Community is kind, gracious and non-@ssholes (with maybe one or two exceptions). :)

And as I said in a different thread - FG doesn't ban criticism, because (I believe) FG'll stand up under the criticism anyway because its a better product.

Still, it might mean we get an influx of new people over the next little while - so "silver lining"

So if you're on the Roll20 forums and people ask, then send them over here for a lot "nicer" experience - but don't get yourselves banned for doing it :)

GunnarGreybeard

September 26th, 2018, 13:59

Wow, is the guy who dropped the hammer the same that's listed as a Co-Founder and PR person?

dulux-oz

September 26th, 2018, 14:03

Wow, is the guy who dropped the hammer the same that's listed as a Co-Founder and PR person?

Yeah, I believe so

damned

September 26th, 2018, 14:07

I dunno - we're all human - Ive carried on *discussions* too far thinking I was being clever...

Ken L

September 26th, 2018, 14:24

The devs even responded, and swiftly headed into EA territory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9iwjwd/read_this/e6n4bgx?utm_source=reddit-android

In the typical Roll20 response, they started deleting threads criticizing the platform en mass (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9ixyj9/rroll20_mods_are_now_deleting_threads_criticizing/). TBF, a bunch of them are name calling and gas lighting the devs/moderators by name, others hitting on the platform and policies are also getting deleted at will too though.

dulux-oz

September 26th, 2018, 15:38

Valyar

September 26th, 2018, 16:38

It was about time... I expected something like that to explode sooner.

Andraax

September 26th, 2018, 16:39

Yeah I spent some time last night and this morning reading it. Like one of the commentators said, it's like watching a train wreck...

https://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/0511c76c41886f951471ee45b1710a0f62f5c8-retina-thumbnail-large.jpg

dulux-oz

September 26th, 2018, 16:50

It was about time... I expected something like that to explode sooner.

Oh, why? what makes you say that?

dulux-oz

September 26th, 2018, 16:51

Valyar

September 26th, 2018, 16:59

Oh, why? what makes you say that?
It is not the first time that something like this happens in the Roll20 world. I know and have seen that their forums are heavily moderated and censored. Even valid topics related to the platform, once addressed by a moderator or developer (especially when not convenient) are closed. Side talks about competition are not existent there.

The only thread that remained with comments under blog post and in their forums (that might have been moderated as well, I don't know) was when their database failed and caused ~day of downtime. I am no longer using their platform and unfortunately I don't have documents to proof that or URLs.

Valyar

September 26th, 2018, 17:15

Wow, petition to ban NolanT from the subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9iydv4/petition_to_remove_and_ban_nolant_from_this_sub/

This gets better and better.

romelwell

September 26th, 2018, 17:32

Howdy. Just wanted to jump in and share that once I port my Call of Cthulhu campaign (Masks of Nyarlathotep) over to FG, I'm bailing on Roll20. The fact that their team has yet to respond to the growing fervor created by Nolan's actions and tone deaf reply is the final straw (for me).
24748

LordEntrails

September 26th, 2018, 18:03

So yea.

I've heard of Nolan et al doing things like this before (banning/poor modding), but this time they did it to someone who was articulate enough and upset enough AND lucky enough to have it go viral. Look to Ken L's story for one more "point of light".

Yes Nolan is one of the co-founders over there. And has been said on various places, it's a bad idea for a company to moderate it's own subreddit. But, it's right in line with the philosophy that Nolan et al seem to take towards business.

Though obviously changing, Nolan's response is one of the top 5 most downvoted threads in reddit history. The source I looked at put it at #4 (and climbing).

Ironic (?) thing is I just created a Roll 20 account yesterday so I could run some Undermountain one-shots for a con I'm participating in (Aethercon VII, since they don't allow FG to be used). Had thought about putting some map assets on their marketplace, but not going to bother now.

Oh, another things (don't have the link atm) but at least one of the people who puts art assets up on the Roll 20 marketplace has said he will give download copies of any assets people bought through the marketplace there if they have deleted their accounts and didn't download the assets.

dulux-oz

September 26th, 2018, 18:22

Though obviously changing, Nolan's response is one of the top 5 most downvoted threads in reddit history. The source I looked at put it at #4 (and climbing).

I've got it as 2nd.

romelwell

September 26th, 2018, 18:34

And so it goes...my non-threatening reply to Nolan's response has been deleted on /r/Roll20. So thin-skinned and immature.

LordEntrails

September 26th, 2018, 19:05

I've got it as 2nd.
Yep, it's moving up fast! Now at -32.4k. Has a long way to get to number 1 though, Battlefront at -683k (and it's not done either).

Doug, thank you for running things differently!

shadzar

September 26th, 2018, 20:02

people are now coming to FG Forums asking if they can get a discount from coming form the competitor. oh boy this trainwreck just got interesting interesting for Doug.. now to make some popcorn and see how it pans out. FG Friday this week is going to be interesting for sure on Twitch!

Ken L

September 26th, 2018, 23:19

So Dawnforged Cast has chimed in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK-H0dDeG38

celestian

September 26th, 2018, 23:34

Wow, that video went where I didn't expect. I was not however surprised when he said they contacted FantasyGrounds for a project and they supported them.

Nylanfs

September 26th, 2018, 23:42

I can see a point from Nolan's viewpoint. There doesn't really need to be more white guys promoting TTRPG's. :)

And a moderation change.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9iwjwd/read_this/e6n4bgx/

MysticCelt

September 27th, 2018, 02:13

You know, I've just spent an hour or so reading the comments on Reddit on this, and all I can say is, I wish we had this as a case-study when I was doing my MBA, because I have *never* seen anyone commit business suicide so quickly or so thoroughly.

I know they're the competition, and I know what was said by the founder was simply way past stupid, but this might actually cause Roll20 to fail, and there's staff and their families to think about.

Thank God that Doug and John would never do something so stupid - the way the comments are going and the number of people saying that they're cancelling their subs or not using the VTT at all is simply astonishing - I don't know what Roll20's *real* revenue stream is like, but damn, are they going to take a hit!

I mean I immediately thought about like, what if this happened with FG? I have like $500 invested in FG product which might not be a lot to some people but it's a hell of a lot for me. I'm not that active on the forums and stuff but I definitely get a different vibe but I cannot imagine how I would feel if I were like $500 into Roll20 and this **** went down. How can they be so careless? This hobby is really important to people. Like pretty regularly D&D is the best thing about my week. And to treat customers like that, and risk the platform imploding because of it is just incredibly irresponsible. And to do it over practically nothing, that's just reckless. I hope they manage to sort their **** out and become a better company after this.

I've never been more thankful for how good the FG community is, and how good the mods and admins are. Helpful, chill, not elitist. The software is great too. I've always heavily preferred it to Roll20.

I was really nervous about investing in a VTT and spending money on stuff that could only be used there. But FG keeps proving it was the right choice so good on y'all.

Valatar

September 27th, 2018, 03:13

I mean I immediately thought about like, what if this happened with FG? I have like $500 invested in FG product which might not be a lot to some people but it's a hell of a lot for me. I'm not that active on the forums and stuff but I definitely get a different vibe but I cannot imagine how I would feel if I were like $500 into Roll20 and this **** went down. How can they be so careless? This hobby is really important to people. Like pretty regularly D&D is the best thing about my week. And to treat customers like that, and risk the platform imploding because of it is just incredibly irresponsible. And to do it over practically nothing, that's just reckless. I hope they manage to sort their **** out and become a better company after this.

I've never been more thankful for how good the FG community is, and how good the mods and admins are. Helpful, chill, not elitist. The software is great too. I've always heavily preferred it to Roll20.

I was really nervous about investing in a VTT and spending money on stuff that could only be used there. But FG keeps proving it was the right choice so good on y'all.

Thing is, if FG went belly up (heaven forbid), all the stuff you bought would still work. If roll20 sinks, every penny everyone spent on supplements etc is GONE. Good luck getting refunds!

MysticCelt

September 27th, 2018, 04:21

Skillkoil

September 27th, 2018, 04:56

All I know is we have seen quite a bit of traffic to the college today. It seems people are looking for an alternative. We have been welcoming people all day. I'm not really concerned with the details of what happened but I am certainly glad to show people the benefits of Fantasy Grounds and help grow our community. So if you are one of the people who discovered us through this "event". Please feel free to ask for help in all our different mediums and I think you will find a welcoming community that wants you to succeed.

Happy Gaming!

dulux-oz

September 27th, 2018, 05:51

Thing is, if FG went belly up (heaven forbid), all the stuff you bought would still work. If roll20 sinks, every penny everyone spent on supplements etc is GONE. Good luck getting refunds!

Not only that, but I recon that there are enough Community Devs around that we could possibly keep FG going *depending upon copyright issues, etc) - I mean, I not only code because I game I code because I like coding - and I'm pretty sure there are others out there who feel the same way.

But I can't see it coming to that - I mean, from the conversations I've had with Doug and John (not to mention the odd argument) I can't see them letting things get to that point, or even starting down that path - of course, you never know what the gods of fate have planned - but still, I can't see it happening and being Doug or John's fault.

LordEntrails

September 27th, 2018, 06:05

Thing is, if FG went belly up (heaven forbid), all the stuff you bought would still work. If roll20 sinks, every penny everyone spent on supplements etc is GONE. Good luck getting refunds!
This was one of the core drivers for me to choose FG over Roll20 a few years back.

Another was the difference in the vibe I got from teh community. Specifically that criticism was not allowed on the Roll20 forums, but it was on the FG forums. Funny how that turned out huh?

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 06:12

Thing is, if FG went belly up (heaven forbid), all the stuff you bought would still work.

Would it? I mean the downloaded books would still open as the reference manuals they are, but without the servers to connect to, you would never b able to save your game progress because that requires a license, which requires checking with the FG servers to grant access to in the program. this is why i have called FG cripple-ware in the past, and why i do no rent software.

also without the FG servers to convert your table alias, then nobody would b able to connect to your table if for some reason you were able to still have the license level last used without having to be check every time FG runs.

without the FG server, FG would be nothing but a big book collection and as non-functional as the "free" version allows it to be. heck would anything from the vault actually open without FG being able to connect to check the license level of the user?

LordEntrails

September 27th, 2018, 06:16

Would it? I mean the downloaded books would still open as the reference manuals they are, but without the servers to connect to, you would never b able to save your game progress because that requires a license, which requires checking with the FG servers to grant access to in the program. this is why i have called FG cripple-ware in the past, and why i do no rent software.
Not quite, I think. My understanding the license check only happens when a demo license tries to connect to an ultimate license.

also without the FG servers to convert your table alias, then nobody would b able to connect to your table if for some reason you were able to still have the license level last used without having to be check every time FG runs.

Except people could use the external IP instead of the alias.

without the FG server, FG would be nothing but a big book collection and as non-functional as the "free" version allows it to be. heck would anything from the vault actually open without FG being able to connect to check the license level of the user?
Except the license check doesn't happen like you think it does. So yea, in many cases it would still work just fine.

Valarian

September 27th, 2018, 06:48

Would it? I mean the downloaded books would still open as the reference manuals they are, but without the servers to connect to, you would never b able to save your game progress because that requires a license, which requires checking with the FG servers to grant access to in the program. this is why i have called FG cripple-ware in the past, and why i do no rent software.

also without the FG servers to convert your table alias, then nobody would b able to connect to your table if for some reason you were able to still have the license level last used without having to be check every time FG runs.

without the FG server, FG would be nothing but a big book collection and as non-functional as the "free" version allows it to be. heck would anything from the vault actually open without FG being able to connect to check the license level of the user?
As LordEntrails says, the license server only kicks in for unregistered users connecting to an Ultimate license and to resolve alias connections. Without the servers, there are no more software updates, no alias connections, and Ultimate licenses act like Full licenses. However, all Full licences will still talk to each other with the external IP address. Games will save to the GM's campaign folder, as they do at the moment. All the stuff you bought would still work - only for licensed users, but it would still work.

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 07:11

dulux-oz

September 27th, 2018, 07:21

then how is it a Standard, "full" license only allows 1 "free" license? it has to check connecting to ANY table.

now i cant even find the comparison chat that tells what each license offers over the others. :confused:

EDIT: found it, it isn't on the store page, its on the front page...

so it has to make a check when connecting to a "standard" license also, not just Ultimate.

No, it doesn't - not if the "default" is to allow 1 demo. If you want more than that then that's when the check is done.

As I understand it there's a "token" that gets passed back and forth between the host and the client(s) with a "number of demos connected" count. When the count is above 1 the demo client contacts the FG servers to see if the ID-license code in the "token" from the host is a "standard" or "ultimate" - at least, that's how I understand things to happen

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 07:32

ah so it is the host doing the check, not the client... this is just confusing... i still say no VTT that requires a website is anything more than renting because all this confusing mess. FailFish

dulux-oz

September 27th, 2018, 07:36

ah so it is the host doing the check, not the client... this is just confusing... i still say no VTT that requires a website is anything more than renting because all this confusing mess. FailFish

No, as I understand it it is the client doing the check, based on info received from the host - but as I said, that's how I understand things, I could be wrong

Valarian

September 27th, 2018, 07:47

then how is it a Standard, "full" license only allows 1 "free" license? it has to check connecting to ANY table.
That's a feature of the demo functionality, not normal game connections. It's there to prevent the standard license impinging on the ability of the Ultimate license to host unregistered players in a game, but still allow Standard license users to demo a game. As dulux-oz points out, the server check doesn't need to take place until more than one unlicensed player tries to connect.

For normal games, you can completely bypass the servers between Standard licenses if you use a direct IP address connection. That is the functionality that would remain. Games where all players have a licensed version would still be able to run in the event that the license servers were unavailable.

Trenloe

September 27th, 2018, 08:04

As has been stated above - if every user has a license then you have full access to the game and the products you’ve previously bought (which are downloaded to your hard drive). If the FG server (used for updates, demo user connecting to Ultimate and alias functionality only) is Down you will still be able to play and have full access to your products.

This is far from "cripple-ware" or "rented" software. Far from it.

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 08:58

This is far from "cripple-ware" or "rented" software. Far from it.

sadly, your feelings have no bearing on the facts...

crip·ple·ware
/ˈkripəlwer/
noun informal•Computing
noun: crippleware; plural noun: cripplewares

software distributed with reduced functionality with a view to attracting payment for a fully functional version.

Fantasy Grounds is the very definition of crippleware.

Valyar

September 27th, 2018, 09:03

Fantasy Grounds is the very definition of crippleware.

Not true. There is clear separation between Demo version and Standard/Ultimate. Unless you are not reading at all what you are clicking and blindly download and install executables, I don't think it matches.

Moon Wizard

September 27th, 2018, 09:06

I think he was merely saying that if you have already paid for a license, it no longer fits that criteria. So, maybe a clarification is that if the servers go down, the functionality is only minimally impacted for people who have purchased.

I’d like to keep this discussion more high level, rather than dissecting posts.

Thanks,
JPG

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 10:23

and SHTF as Reddit made a course correction in /r/roll20 ...

https://old.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9j6k9s/subreddit_status_and_moderation_changes/

We have asked the mods of /r/lfg to step in and become the new moderators of this community. We leave it up to them to decide the rules of this community going forward, and have removed all Roll20 staff from the moderation team of this subreddit.

according to this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LOo5FXf8Vk ) it seems MapTools and Fantasy Ground can now be discussed on the roll20 subreddit in comments to things... like if someone were to comment, "You know if you are tired of abuse from roll20 you could always use Fantasy Grounds instead."

(I assume memes are allowed round here?)

Valyar

September 27th, 2018, 11:46

It was about time for some damage control measures to kick-in.

PS: If this is Nolan, who is the guy with the pink hair and piercings that I glimpsed on some streams?

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 12:20

PS: If this is Nolan, who is the guy with the pink hair and piercings that I glimpsed on some streams?

Adam Koebel, co-creator of the failed RPG, Dungeon World; and DM for the lapsed king of D&D streams on Twitch, itmeJP. I think Adam is just a face of "diversity" for roll20. Some say he is employed there, others say he just heavily promotes it, but he did run Yawning Portal in part on the roll20app twitch account.

Adam Koebel is like the Dave Middleton of roll20, since thedigitaldm does most of the Twitch related things for FG (except for Fantasy Ground Fridays where Doug actually hosts on the twitch.tv/FantasyGrounds Twitch account), and Adam speaks on behalf of roll20 on Twitch.

it was rare to ever see Nolan stream, so Doug is a more....um. what is the word? visable and approachable person as far as a "streamer" is concerned.

Just don't ask when FGU is coming out on FGF streams because "Soon(TM)" is the answer, same as given around here.

Trenloe

September 27th, 2018, 13:31

I think he was merely saying that if you have already paid for a license, it no longer fits that criteria. So, maybe a clarification is that if the servers go down, the functionality is only minimally impacted for people who have purchased.
Thanks for that JPG, you are correct. I thought it would have been obvious in my post where I refered to needing a license to do the things everyone else had been pointing out. These are the facts of the matter, with a license nothing is crippled, nothing is rented. This was, sadly, ignored by some.

ddavison

September 27th, 2018, 18:47

(I assume memes are allowed round here?)

@shadzar, we would prefer for you not to include Memes, pictures or comments directly targeted at any person in particular. While we don't mind debate, we want to stay above anything resembling a personal attack.

Nylanfs

September 27th, 2018, 18:51

Typically we use images to illustrate a function or an error we are seeing, or a cool map or portrait we want to show off. :)

Valyar

September 27th, 2018, 18:53

The image below can be considered one of a function and error...

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 20:09

oh fine.. i guess the meme isnt needed since TheQuartering and Taking20 just lit into the roll20 storm.

Valyar

September 27th, 2018, 21:10

If Disney owned WotC the D&D license granted to roll20 would be revoked. Let’s see if Hasbro will react. We live in very sensitive times...

shadzar

September 27th, 2018, 22:08

If Disney owned WotC the D&D license granted to roll20 would be revoked. Let’s see if Hasbro will react. We live in very sensitive times...

So you are right equating roll20 to Roseanne Barr? a complete PR nightmare to distance yourself from.

damned

September 28th, 2018, 00:13

Adam Koebel, co-creator of the failed RPG, Dungeon World; and DM for the lapsed king of D&D streams on Twitch, itmeJP. I think Adam is just a face of "diversity" for roll20. Some say he is employed there, others say he just heavily promotes it, but he did run Yawning Portal in part on the roll20app twitch account.

Adam Koebel is like the Dave Middleton of roll20, since thedigitaldm does most of the Twitch related things for FG (except for Fantasy Ground Fridays where Doug actually hosts on the twitch.tv/FantasyGrounds Twitch account), and Adam speaks on behalf of roll20 on Twitch.

I would never call Dungeon World a failed RPG.
It is in the top 20 game systems played on roll20 and has a reasonable market share.
When I say reasonable - D&D has upwards of 70% of the market and Pathfinder takes a huge chunk of the rest. The top 10 systems eat 90% of the market by themselves.
Dungeon World would be in the band of the next 20 RPGs.
Thats out of many thousands of RPGs.

shadzar

September 28th, 2018, 00:21

Strange then Adam never streams it on Twitch since it has its own category and everything. He once streamed it, but in the D&D category so I thought he was so ashamed of it he didn't want to put it in its own category.

Either way, it never has anyone steaming it, and hardly anyone mentions it. Those who do mention it, just call it a dumbed down D&D. but that all has little bearing on roll20 recent incidents.

damned

September 28th, 2018, 00:35

I personally think it is a great variant on D&D. Yes it is simpler. It is very much focused on the story. Its a lot of fun to play and run. And Ive watched quite a few DW streams - some with Adam as GM and others with him as a player.

iotech

September 28th, 2018, 02:12

Cody from Taking 20 released this today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZJHAywQFm0

He says some very nice things about FG and Doug at 14:30 and near the end.

Ken L

September 28th, 2018, 02:35

Wait, why is Shaz trashing Adam? Adam was seperate from Roll20 for a long time before becoming their official 'GM'. He did Mirror Shades and Swan Song.

Dungeon world is a great light game system with a fantasy theme. It's more designed for theater of mind type games. Shadow Run Anarchy is similar.

Nylanfs

September 28th, 2018, 02:50

There's also a Kotaku article where he was interviewed (https://kotaku.com/one-fans-criticism-of-d-d-app-roll20-sends-its-subreddi-1829374197) and a Newsweek article (https://www.newsweek.com/roll20-reddit-nolant-jones-apostleo-apostleoftruth-dungeons-and-dragons-ban-1142706)

shadzar

September 28th, 2018, 08:44

Wait, why is Shaz trashing Adam?

maybe was not a part of roll20 all along, but is a part of it now, and because something he said at TwitchCon the other year. basically his way yo play is the only way that should be allowed, and anyone else playing a different way is wrong. Those kinds of people don't belong in RPGs or even gaming.

damned

September 28th, 2018, 09:12

i have had some limited interactions with Adam and he has been open and approachable and has given me permission to do some things in FG that I requested.
so... my take on him has all been pretty positive :)

shadzar

September 28th, 2018, 11:04

that is all we can do, base our opinions on someone by our own interactions with them. doing it the other way would be... mob mentality? i just have no interest in making a second attempt in case he was having a "bad day" at the con to give him another chance because... i just couldnt care less. there is plenty of other streamers out that that do it better, and now more since some FG people are beginning to stream, or stream more from around here.

Ellspeth

September 28th, 2018, 11:26

How bad does your screw up have to be to make Newsweek? https://www.newsweek.com/roll20-reddit-nolant-jones-apostleo-apostleoftruth-dungeons-and-dragons-ban-1142706

dulux-oz

September 28th, 2018, 13:06

Ellspeth

September 28th, 2018, 13:21

dulux-oz

September 28th, 2018, 13:26

In truth I got that from one of our community members here who shared it on FB. I have noted before that I never really used that other VTT, it didn't impress me. Of course I was introduced to gaming through Fantasy Grounds and wrote it off to the human tendency to prefer what is familiar.
I shared here because this seems a pretty stark illustration of how easily good will can be lost, to appreciate what we have here, and to understand how important it is to be aware how important it is to think twice, or ten times,, before posting anything online.

Yeah, I'm constantly amazed at how.. "pedestrian" the FG Forums are - especially when compared to the majority of the rest of the 'Net. We don't know how good we've gor it here until we poke our heads out the door and see what the rest of the 'Net has to deal with.

I am so, so glad I found this product and this Community, and I thank all of us for keeping it so friendly and helpful - thank you!

JohnD

September 28th, 2018, 13:53

But it's "free"!

hawkwind

September 28th, 2018, 14:07

But it's "free"!

have you looked at their LFG forum , its like a bad dating App

dulux-oz

September 28th, 2018, 14:20

have you looked at their LFG forum , its like a bad dating App

Oh man, I just had an image of "swiping left" on player profiles :)

JohnD

September 28th, 2018, 14:55

have you looked at their LFG forum , its like a bad dating App

No, I have enough time wasted with all the hours I spend waiting for my wife to be 20 minutes late to everything without fail.

NotRussellCrowe

September 28th, 2018, 14:59

But it's "free"!

I try to promote over on reddit but I just don't know how to counter this one, if there even is one. Then again I've never been good at debates/arguments, easier to just walk away and enjoy life.

mattekure

September 28th, 2018, 15:10

I try to promote over on reddit but I just don't know how to counter this one, if there even is one. Then again I've never been good at debates/arguments, easier to just walk away and enjoy life.

I figure for many/most it is "free" for players. Its a different business model that works for some and not others. As a DM, I prefer this model where I can buy it, not pay month to month, and get all the features I need for my game. I dont worry about losing access to my stuff if I cant make the next payment. Also, I dont have to worry about my players financial status as they can all connect for free. None of my regular players have a paid license. But we are all glad we moved here.

JohnQPublic

September 28th, 2018, 15:28

I try to promote over on reddit but I just don't know how to counter this one, if there even is one. Then again I've never been good at debates/arguments, easier to just walk away and enjoy life.

Roll20 is free if all you want is a shared whiteboard and a chat program (I think the chat program is free). If you want any automation, official content, or any of the cool features you have to pay. If you have to pay, FantasyGrounds is cheaper and better.

JohnD

September 28th, 2018, 15:51

I try to promote over on reddit but I just don't know how to counter this one ... easier to just walk away and enjoy life.

Indeed it is.

LordEntrails

September 28th, 2018, 17:46

How bad does your screw up have to be to make Newsweek? https://www.newsweek.com/roll20-reddit-nolant-jones-apostleo-apostleoftruth-dungeons-and-dragons-ban-1142706
#2 most downvoted post?

No, I have enough time wasted with all the hours I spend waiting for my wife to be 20 minutes late to everything without fail.
You gotta plan for it, like I do.

We tried me "not" doing that once, when we were going on vacation. I gave her a time we should leave, and she said no, what time do we have to leave. I said, "no later than" and we left 15 minutes after that and we missed our plane by 10 minutes. After she asked why I didn't leave a buffer and I reminded her of our conversation, she doesn't argue with me about leaving a buffer. (Score 1 for me! All I need is another 10k to catch up!!)

I try to promote over on reddit but I just don't know how to counter this one, if there even is one. Then again I've never been good at debates/arguments, easier to just walk away and enjoy life.
I usually say something to the effect of; Cambridge Analytics once again proved the point, if a service is free, you are the product.

Valyar

September 28th, 2018, 18:12

As a DM, I prefer this model where I can buy it, not pay month to month, and get all the features I need for my game. I dont worry about losing access to my stuff if I cant make the next payment. Also, I dont have to worry about my players financial status as they can all connect for free. None of my regular players have a paid license. But we are all glad we moved here.
+1 and valid not only for FG, but for the other software products I use legally.

Ampersandrew

September 28th, 2018, 19:00

On seconds thoughts, I didn't need to post this.

Mellock

September 29th, 2018, 12:45

Ampersandrew

September 29th, 2018, 13:08

I just thought I'd link this article (https://www.cybersmile.org/blog/roll20-founder-nolan-t-jones-talks-about-online-abuse-and-roll20con) here. It's from 2016, where Nolan T sheds some light on his experience with online abuse.

Pointing out legitimate shortcomings a product or service in a polite fashion is not online abuse.

Roll20s apparent* handling of any criticism of their product is brutal and anti-customer. We all have a choice how we spend our money, who we choose to give it to. I'm very, very glad that I have never decided to give even one penny of it to the owners of Roll20.

I picked Fantasy Grounds because it is in my direct experience a vastly better VTT. Also, being able to buy a licence outright was a big factor for me. I don't want to drip feed money to a company on an ongoing basis. Won't do it for Microsoft, Adobe, or back in the Day WotC (I cancelled my support when they made the 4th ed char gen online only).

Having picked it, it seems that the management here are way more customer friendly. I'm chuffed.

* I say apparent, I have no direct experience of it, but the impression I get from their commentry and others descriptions of how they've been handled it's abysmally bad.

Mellock

September 29th, 2018, 13:29

Pointing out legitimate shortcomings a product or service in a polite fashion is not online abuse.

Roll20s apparent* handling of any criticism of their product is brutal and anti-customer. We all have a choice how we spend our money, who we choose to give it to. I'm very, very glad that I have never decided to give even one penny of it to the owners of Roll20.

I picked Fantasy Grounds because it is in my direct experience a vastly better VTT. Also, being able to buy a licence outright was a big factor for me. I don't want to drip feed money to a company on an ongoing basis. Won't do it for Microsoft, Adobe, or back in the Day WotC (I cancelled my support when they made the 4th ed char gen online only).

Having picked it, it seems that the management here are way more customer friendly. I'm chuffed.

* I say apparent, I have no direct experience of it, but the impression I get from their commentry and others descriptions of how they've been handled it's abysmally bad.

That's not what I meant :) I was quoting the title of the article. I just thought it would provide some context.

shadzar

September 29th, 2018, 15:53

Pointing out legitimate shortcomings a product or service in a polite fashion is not online abuse.

sadly, most of "those" people from the "woke" crowd think any sort of criticism or critique is a personal attack or harassment be it online or off.

Mellock

September 29th, 2018, 16:13

I just thought it was kind of interesting. Nolan T seems to be the kind of person raised with a certain side of the internet. I'm thinking 4chan-like. I sometimes wonder of this behaviour is what it leads to when they grow up to be adults, in this case with a business. I wonder if the FG community, making an effort to be nice, will have its effect on future adults, if we're part of kids playing DnD trough FG right now.

I don't know if that's a load of psycho-babble, or if we're really making a small difference. I do know that I started playing in my early-twenties, and kind of stuck with this enjoyable community now in my mid thirties. I like to think that in a small way, it formed me in the way that I treat others -- especially online.

dulux-oz

September 29th, 2018, 16:26

A wise man once said (& no, I can't put an actual name to the Wise Man - sorry): "The person you end up as depends upon two things; the books you read and the people you hang out with".

Topdecker

September 29th, 2018, 16:43

FG's working model reminds me a bit of all the scientific societies that formed and that were quite effective during much of the 18th century. Many collaborators all working independently and without much friction but towards very similar goals - with this one being to play one rule system or the other comfortably while being online.

Anyhow, the FG development model is open and welcoming and this extends quite happily to the customer-base and seems to quietly influence the tenor and direction of many interactions here on the forums in a very positive fashion.

At least that's how I see it :)

Top

LordEntrails

September 29th, 2018, 17:29

A wise man once said (& no, I can't put an actual name to the Wise Man - sorry): "The person you end up as depends upon two things; the books you read and the people you hang out with".
Well said.
I use something akin to that today when looking at the world at large. Need to understand something about a person, such as a politician, media mogul, athlete, business partner? Look at who they associate with. In general, good people associate with good people, criminals associate with criminals, etc.

LordEntrails

September 29th, 2018, 18:46

Not to beat a horse when it's down... But I had to share this cuz well, wow. So glad Doug and John are the people they are...

So I stopped by r/Roll20 today to see what was going on. And it actually looks like it might turn into a nice healthy place. Evidenced by a few example thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9jx5mx/roll20_enhancement_suite_browser_extension/) there that starts out;

Reposting this with the hope it wont get taken down again thanks to a change in mods.
I've been working on this browser extension....

And the guy then goes on to post links to a browser extension that he's done that adds a bunch of functionality to Roll20 and solves a bunch of issues with the native environment.

Another thread (https://Sorry, I realize this isn't a support forum, but I posted something on Sunday or Monday in the support forum of Roll20 and haven't really got a reply. I haven't used the service before, and I'm supposed to play in a game tomorrow.) starts;

Sorry, I realize this isn't a support forum, but I posted something on Sunday or Monday in the support forum of Roll20 and haven't really got a reply. I haven't used the service before, and I'm supposed to play in a game tomorrow.

So I draw two conclusions from these and other posts;
1) The toxicity in the Roll20 community wasn't an unusual thing.
2) r/Roll20 is shaping up to be a healthy place where criticism and open discussion will be welcome.

#2 a good thing. I'm happy to see it, and hope the Orr Group can take it to heart and learn, and grow, and maybe become as healthy and welcoming a company as SmiteWorks is.

shadzar

September 29th, 2018, 19:10

1) The toxicity in the Roll20 community wasn't an unusual thing.

well from what I have heard about roll20 from people that have NO CHOICE but to us it.... there is no support for the average player. you can go to the forums and hope another user can help you, or pray you can figure out what is wrong yourself. like all browser based tools you get mostly the common response:

1. Delete all your cookies
2. Clear your cache

if you want a macro, hope you can find it in the forums or write it yourself.. roll20 doesnt have anything like "extensions"/"themes" that let you add in the form of say a library of macros to apply to your game, you have to copy paste code from one place into the right place into your game.

Valatar

September 30th, 2018, 03:02

I was frankly amazed by what I saw of the administration of the subreddit, and I guess their forums by extension given that they were unethically running both with the same people. The posts that were getting people banned were so milquetoast run of the mill suggestions and bug reports, nobody in their right mind would lash out at a user, a customer at that, for posting it. Why was that guy getting his posts deleted for trying to write a browser extension that would improve their service? What insanity is that?

shadzar

September 30th, 2018, 06:40

Valatar, you have to understand "communities". you see a "community" possessed by a company has always been a place for control. control of the discussion by the company itself. this is why you see most discussion on non0company websites about thing.

WotC closed down its forums.. aka "community" because the made a trash system called 4e which created a literal war on their forums, and most people were already moving to places like ENWorld. same goes for DNDBeyond.. its a 5e only club, not a D&D club.... ENWorld at least allows discussion of other editions or games.

Games Workshop was all about control of their "community" and they too shut down their forums, and for a time i think most people preferred Dakka Dakka forums instead before it shut down.

Roll20 mostly has the LFG that is quick and easy to list the game and incorporate the thing with actually joining the game... not that sharing a URL with someone is that hard, and that is all it takes to join any rol20 game, thus why it has the obfuscated link in chat every time because it will connect then resolve the browser to editor.roll20.net or something like that for ALL games. so people wanting to talk openly went to reddit, but there the thing was done that they claim shouldnt be done.. the company was allowed to run that "community".

Most companies want to control their products discussions. It used to be negative discussion was a bad thing because word of mouth and such, but now they truly are a lot (see Nike or Disney) that believe there is no bad publicity" that strive to live on controversies....

insanity would be the right word for it all. in part in the RPG world is the ongoings of the "woke" crowd trying to rock the boat, and boy are they doing it. so it will be a long time before things stabilize again and anyone can figure out how to serve a community, and which part of it you want to serve, because most of it now is trying to figure out which demographics to aim the products at, who is worth of respect, etc... instead of jsut saying "anyone can buy anything, and when they have, they have a right to offer opinions on it". until then all criticism is bad. all critiques are bad. everything you do and say is hate speech unless it is glowing praise for everyone and everything else... aka... communities "don't need more white guys".