GM Advice - noob with a ?personal? problem

[Kev]

So I've come to the forum to see if I should be reacting the way I am. Here is the senario... I posted I was a new ish dm looking to run an Adventure path. Got some players along with my wife. I at one point early on state "don't google any characters or locations because spoilers were everywhere in the search results, which is true. We are several months into the game, with all players but my wife having DM'ed before. 2 of the 3 are extremely knowledgeable. I made one "mistake" I thought because I gave a 25 point buy, and they are Killing it. I started adjusting for their skill and power, ie maxing hp of badies and adding henchmen. But they are still walking through levels with little negatives. OK here's the issue... Late in the second chapter of 6 in the adventure path, as the party hesitated on going in on an seemingly obvious... kills en all zone. One of the respected and corrective DM players says, "Well I'm not going to give an opinion, cause I've run this module before." Personally Mind Blowing. I am trying to figure out how to encourage them to move forward and I get this dropped in the middle of the game, in front of the players. Struggling with this, knowing that I typically overreach and working on it, I decided to IM him. "have you just run this module or the adventure path?" He responds, "I have 2 groups at the 5th chapter" ...I'm like WHAT!... **** stay in the game, people are waiting... so I go with... "any advice to getting then to go in?" response: something like, I don't know, my groups just went in and started fighting.
Here's my ?personal? problems:
1: I believe I can attribute some of the ease that they are making it through the encounters to the WIZARD, him. Knowing when to use spells and when to use cantrips/Bow. We went into a small map with limited bad guys, and he went for solid area effect spells that made a huge difference. Then on multi-level or deeper encounters, he saved spells in big opening battles and went for cantrips and arrows.
2: Since he announced this to the entire group in the 8th month, now they will be calculating his reactions as clues to the adventures, whether or not they want to or not.
3: I barely have time to research and play/run properly, so I know he will not take improv as the adventure, but as I f**ked up. *I realize this is a big me issue, but it does take away from my enjoyment of running the game.
4: I have one of my most experienced players purposely not applying his opinions to solution solving, because he knows the answers.
5: I want to enjoy, all players, exchanging ideas and interacting to solve and experience the mysteries. ~diminished~
So the questions...
1: Do I just kick him, even though it may kill the game for all, just because I put in a lot of energy and it is challenging and occasionally stressful to fit in the prep time for a game that is now skewed?
2: Do I ask the other players if it bothers them, knowing that we've played together for 8 months and they might not care as much as I do.
3: Do I just end the game because, FFFFF*********cKK!

Please let me know the level of my overreaction, and your opinion on how I should proceed. I'm having a hard time understanding why someone would want to play in an adventure that they have already DM'ed twice, other than to help them run it more times for others, which seems like using me and hurting my game and enjoyment.

Thanks

[Andraax]

I've played in modules that I had previously DM'd (doing so right now, as a matter of fact), but I'm careful to not use non-player knowledge while gaming.

[Skillkoil]

One question before I respond to the player having run the mod before. Did you have a meeting with all the players before the campaign started and set expectations. IE.. Did you ask them what they expected from the game and what they enjoyed in the game etc.. Then did you tell them what you expected from them as players and ask if they had played this module before?

As for balancing encounters. Every GM has this issue. One thing that I am finding that works is to have some back up NPC's that I can bring in as waves during combat. For example, if they are just bowling down the enemies in round one, I can bring in a few more to make the combat more perilous. Now you always want to keep in mind, how many short rests am I giving them per session vs how many encounters do I have planned. A wizard only has so many spell slots so If you make him consider economy of action over the whole night's game by allowing them less rest to recover things(every once in a while - I wouldn't push them like crazy every night) This may make things easier for you in the future. If you have a really good wizard add a counter caster to your NPC group. A few clutch counter spells can always come in handy. Tactics are another big thing you can play with. Maybe they face enemies that rush in harry them then run away. So it just isn't a slug fest on a set map. Then when the party thinks they are gone they come in again and harass them. You can definitely add attacks, increase HP, increase their + to hit if you feel the monsters they fight are just too weak. I feel your pain, I am working through this same issue in my campaign.

If you did have that meeting with your players, I would first go to the wizard in private and share your concerns with him. Try to have a respectful conversation and find a compromise that gets you somewhere close to where you want to be. If they flat refuse to work with you then for the sake of the group you have to sometimes pull off the bandaid quick. Hopefully that won't happen though. Maybe have a group meeting before or after a session and just tell the group that things are getting a little off course. Offer some solutions and ask them for some as well. I understand you have little time to prepare each week so changing things up may not be an option for you. If you can get 2 to 3 hours a week you can probably change the next week's puzzles, encounters, quests enough to where even if he knows it all, it will be different enough where he can't predict through your changes.

Overall it is a complicated situation and if you can't resolve it, I think it is better to lose 1 player and save the group, if everyone else is enjoying the adventure. Just do it amicably and leave any feelings out of it. He played the module and didn't tell you. You just can't have him continue if he already knows the material and can't be part of the problem solving.

I know it is rough man, I hope this helps! I wish you the best of luck however this is resolved!

[LordEntrails]

Things like this can certainly can be frustrating. You did the right thing, not reacting until you had time to think about it, and ask others for advice.

I'm sure you will get some comprehensive advice. The first thing I will say before the others' questions are asked is to encourage you to be willing to mix things up. Change names, relocate NPC's, change weaknesses etc.

[damned]

Firstly are the players enjoying it?
Secondly were you enjoying it?

In terms of balance I think its quite hard to bring it back when you have bumped their core attributes up right from the start.
To get back on top of it add 50% more numbers to the bigger encounters but dont send them all in at once. Combine this with limiting rest opportunites.
Let your caster lay waste with AoE spells destroying the first waves and then wonder what to do with the next wave as available spell slots are starting to drop hard.
Maybe even drop in a third wave in an early battle once every few sessions.
Make them battle at least once every two sessions with little or no healing or powerful spells.
Make them sweat it.

Let them go off track, run with it, let side stories develop.
This will take the prior-knowledge out of it.
Sometimes a side story will cause a wrinkle or even a big change in the main story.
Go with it.

Move important clues or encounters to a different location in the story.
The big bad encounter runs at the start of the cave complex instead of the end.
The hidden clue or artifact is not in the place described in the book.

As to prior knowledge - if 1 and 2 were correct then take a deep breath and let it go.
Al players have some prior knowledge.
They know some creatures have vulnerabilities or immunities etc.
If the player has been trying to not use that prior knowledge then roll with it.

[Kev]

First I'd like to thank everyone for the time they took to respond and for the advice itself. The question about did I state it in the session 0 got me worried cause I couldn't remember.
So, I looked up my original post and found this gem smack dab in the middle.
~This adventure path has been performed on line several times, so if you know the details of the adventure path please don't apply. We would all like to live the adventure together. ~ The "we" being a friend and a wife, the friend had to drop out due to family responsibilities. I do remember stating in the session zero that I wanted to stick closely to the AP, I believe in response to one of the player stating this path was on his bucket list. Which is one of the problems(guilt) I was having with improvising too much.

With this involved, I think I have two options.
1: Go to the others and ask if they have any problems with this situation and add that I will be modifying the adventure path more openly if he continues in the game.
2: Boot him for blatantly entering a game where I made it clear that this was a requirement and continue with the minor badguy adjustments.

Any opinions at this point would still be VERY welcome.

[Skillkoil]

First I'd like to thank everyone for the time they took to respond and for the advice itself. The question about did I state it in the session 0 got me worried cause I couldn't remember.
So, I looked up my original post and found this gem smack dab in the middle.
~This adventure path has been performed on line several times, so if you know the details of the adventure path please don't apply. We would all like to live the adventure together. ~ The "we" being a friend and a wife, the friend had to drop out due to family responsibilities. I do remember stating in the session zero that I wanted to stick closely to the AP, I believe in response to one of the player stating this path was on his bucket list. Which is one of the problems(guilt) I was having with improvising too much.

With this involved, I think I have two options.
1: Go to the others and ask if they have any problems with this situation and add that I will be modifying the adventure path more openly if he continues in the game.
2: Boot him for blatantly entering a game where I made it clear that this was a requirement and continue with the minor badguy adjustments.

Any opinions at this point would still be VERY welcome.

If you have already gone privately to the player and they are unwilling to compromise and you clearly stated your expectation in the beginning then it may be better to find a replacement player and work their character into your story and continue on with the people who want the original adventure.

I hope everything works out for you and your group continues. I do think it is a good idea to bring up this issue matter of factly to the group and explain why the player's decision is a problem.

Good Luck!

[damned]

First I'd like to thank everyone for the time they took to respond and for the advice itself. The question about did I state it in the session 0 got me worried cause I couldn't remember.
So, I looked up my original post and found this gem smack dab in the middle.
~This adventure path has been performed on line several times, so if you know the details of the adventure path please don't apply. We would all like to live the adventure together. ~ The "we" being a friend and a wife, the friend had to drop out due to family responsibilities. I do remember stating in the session zero that I wanted to stick closely to the AP, I believe in response to one of the player stating this path was on his bucket list. Which is one of the problems(guilt) I was having with improvising too much.

With this involved, I think I have two options.
1: Go to the others and ask if they have any problems with this situation and add that I will be modifying the adventure path more openly if he continues in the game.
2: Boot him for blatantly entering a game where I made it clear that this was a requirement and continue with the minor badguy adjustments.

Any opinions at this point would still be VERY welcome.

You are 8 months in.
He might have started GMing it after this campaign started.
Have you asked him?

Im still going back to what i think is the most important part.

Are the players enjoying it?
And were you enjoying it?

If the answers to these were Yes then there isnt really a big issue.
There is an issue but its not really that big a deal.

If you - or the players - are not enjoying it - is it because its too easy or because of meta gaming?
If its because its too easy - is it meta gaming or is it still the up front boost?

Remember - all players meta game even when they are trying not to.
It sounds to me like you have a group that has played well for 8 months - tick.
You have a player who has knowledge about the adventure (untick) but is doing his best not to use that knowledge - tick.

We play together for fun.
From what you have written - I think you were having fun and I think you should go back and keep having fun.

You sound hesitant to mix things up and not go "by the book" but you started off right at the start by not following the book.
If you arent comfortable mixing it up - dont. But dont let some preconceived notion that the way its written in the book is the best and only way hold you back.
If its something you dont enjoy doing thats different.

Personally - GMs are always in demand.
But GMs should be able to play too.

[Kev]

I haven't spoken to anyone yet, getting my head right with this sturdy, level headed advice first.

I have done the math and he could have started those games around the same time, or just after. Since we are every other week.

Yes, I have learned a few valuable lessons with starting them at hero level.(aka not following the AP) Like it's not just that they are stronger, but they have fewer vulnerabilities to overcome or to be exploited. Also, in a densely populated city, it stands out much more in every nearly every interaction.

I think the enjoyment all around is varying based on my prep time, so that is hard to factor in with this situation. But is has been getting better as I improve my prep. I think that will improve even more as I now will be a little more loose with the AP.

I think at this point, if no one brings it up, I will let it ride. And if someone does, we can have an open discussion without me blowing it up from my end.

Thanks again!

[JohnD]

In 2018, it will be very hard, if not impossible to find people who can't/haven't played a published adventure or flipped through it in a store or a PDF online.

Personally, similar things used to bother me, but, now all I ask for is if there's advance knowledge, the player not make it obvious (blatantly and painfully obvious...) in game.

It is pretty impossible to police what outside knowledge others have when connecting to your game; all you can really do is ask, I would suggest privately, that said knowledge out of character is not acted upon in game, and for the players to not make it obvious to everyone they know the adventure.

If you are really struck by coincidences that keep happening, then change up the stock encounters a bit, adding or modifying the situations. What you describe could also simply be the player playing his spellcaster PC well and strategically.

Ultimately it is your game though and you have to decide what you can accept and be comfortable with at your table. Just be mindful that your decision doesn't result in just you and your wife sitting at it, because that could be the outcome depending on how you end up handling this.

[Skillkoil]

In 2018, it will be very hard, if not impossible to find people who can't/haven't played a published adventure or flipped through it in a store or a PDF online.

Personally, similar things used to bother me, but, now all I ask for is if there's advance knowledge, the player not make it obvious (blatantly and painfully obvious...) in game.

It is pretty impossible to police what outside knowledge others have when connecting to your game; all you can really do is ask, I would suggest privately, that said knowledge out of character is not acted upon in game, and for the players to not make it obvious to everyone they know the adventure.

If you are really struck by coincidences that keep happening, then change up the stock encounters a bit, adding or modifying the situations. What you describe could also simply be the player playing his spellcaster PC well and strategically.

Ultimately it is your game though and you have to decide what you can accept and be comfortable with at your table. Just be mindful that your decision doesn't result in just you and your wife sitting at it, because that could be the outcome depending on how you end up handling this.

I think the original issue began was that he said he had already run the module/adventure and refused to help with the problem solving & story progression. The GM whispered him and asked for help in getting the players to proceed and the player just said, "My players ran in". So it may not be the advance knowledge that is specifically the problem but the fact that the player with the knowledge is now refusing to assist in group decisions because of it.

Like I said before this is difficult any way you slice it. You are going to just have to find some kind of compromise or decide how much this game is worth to you and the rest of the players. I really do hope it works out for you!

[damned]

I think the original issue began was that he said he had already run the module/adventure and refused to help with the problem solving & story progression. The GM whispered him and asked for help in getting the players to proceed and the player just said, "My players ran in". So it may not be the advance knowledge that is specifically the problem but the fact that the player with the knowledge is now refusing to assist in group decisions because of it.

Like I said before this is difficult any way you slice it. You are going to just have to find some kind of compromise or decide how much this game is worth to you and the rest of the players. I really do hope it works out for you!

That might be how it happened but the way I read it was the player did not want to make this particular decision for the group because he knew it could be an important one. He was acting in the interests of the game and group and not acting on his knowledge. The fact his groups just "ran in" and the games are still going means that even if the rest of the group make a poor decision here it probably wont matter in the overall scheme. Im thinking that the players revelation caught the GM offguard/by-surprise more than anything else. There wasnt a lot to suggest that prior to this one event that the group werent playing nicely together - possibly even the opposite - the party are doing well and progressing the story.

[Temmpest]

3: I barely have time to research and play/run properly, so I know he will not take improv as the adventure, but as I f**ked up. *I realize this is a big me issue, but it does take away from my enjoyment of running the game.

Don't be afraid to improv! It may even help with your dilemma since that player may realize that he doesn't know what to expect. I would recommend definitely changing things up. Don't end the campaign and ruin it for everyone else, especially if you've been playing for 8 months. I've improved on many campaigns, especially when I know one of the players has already run through it.

[Ardem]

I think the issue you have is two fold, he was not 100% forth coming to begin with, why he announced it now and not before who knows. I also think by him announcing it he also let the other know do not rush in, he was warning them. that was pretty shitty. Either was I think just ignore it and push on. Balance is not everything, some players just love to win and not the challenge so work out what make people happy if it not affecting the fun then I would just move on, and not even worry about it.


Going forward I would mix up the fights, have the fights where they are expected on the majority so not to change too much work for yourself. But enough to make it hard, have undead where there should be monsters, vary the levels, use hidden/invisible creature. Move the encounters a room or a hallway from where they are suppose to encounter. Crreate traps where ther should be treasure and vice versa. these small changes will be enough to make it difficult to meta, and when some thing you cannot change like a boss fight so be it.

Also if they have too much of an easy fight all the time, put some thing that magic item that helps heal the monsters in a zone or bring them back from the dead until they figure it out. Do these things on the fly.