Balancing encounters for a party with increased damage output.

[Skillkoil]

I am in need of wisdom from all of the wise and powerful GM's of Fantasy Grounds. I am running a 5E homebrew campaign where all the player characters have either an extra d4 of radiant or fire damage (depending on custom subraces I created) on all attacks/spells that require an attack roll. The party size is 6 level 3 players (currently). How much extra CR do you think this d4 per player warrants? Also the damage dice will increase to d6,d8,d10,d12 about every 4 levels.

I would love to get some feedback on this. I want my players to still feel challenged and have death be a real possibility. To be thorough I will list the race/class of the 6 players.

Deep Gnome / Evoker Mage
Full Blood Orc/ Champion Fighter
Tabaxi / Arcane Trixster Rogue
Tiefling / Hunter Ranger
Goliath / Death Priest (DMG)
Human / Conquest Paladin

I am doing more than just increasing CR. I am adjusting HP, Damage Output and abilities of mobs. However, any input you could give me on providing my players with fun and challenging combat encounters would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[LordEntrails]

So the biggest thing in balancing combat in 5E is action economy. Since you have 6 players instead of 4, you need to add 50% more NPCs to encounters to start with.

Then, since you have upped the damage output of players, you either need to add more NPC's (which messes with action economy), or add hitpoints to the NPCs'. Adding hit points is the simplier of the two methods. Since your players generally do 2.5 more hitpoints than average, you have to multiple that by the number of hits the NPC would normally take before being killed. So if an NPC would normally take 5 hits to kill, then you add 2.5x5=13 hit points to such an NPC. As your players level up, the math will change since you are increasing their additional damage output you will up that.

Note, By upping the hit points of the NPCs, you might be increasing their challenge ratings. But, I wouldn't bother doing that, because you will then increase the XP you award and the players will then level up faster than normal, and they will then be doing more damage faster and you get into a upward spiral.

Of course, the easiest thing to do is not to modify the game in the first place and then it's already balanced...

[Zacchaeus]

Yes, you have somewhat created a rod for your own back by increasing the player's damage output. The easiest method would be to have all the NPCs do the same. The tables in the DMG for scaling encounters are probably a good place to start but they're tabulated on the basis of what the average player damage would be. And extra d4 damage on a shortsword is a whopping 70% increase; even on a larger weapon the extra damage isn't trivial. I think you are going to have to play if by ear and more than likely have to do a lot of things on the fly like increasing NPC hp and numbers.

[Skillkoil]

Thank you both for the input. I knew going in that doing this would make my job harder. Which, i'm ok with because I feel it adds to the story enough to be meaningful. I do appreciate the feedback and I think doing an HP increase on top of the number of enemies should bring things into balance. I will see how much amortization I have after our next session.

[LordEntrails]

Let us know how it goes :)

[Bidmaron]

Not sure how adding d4 improves the story but you must have a reason

[Skillkoil]

Not sure how adding d4 improves the story but you must have a reason

Each player character is either half angel (Nephilim) or half demon (Demon Spawn) Each has a once a day ability that lasts 1 minute and then they all imbue their weapons and magic with either radiant or fire damage. The reason this is important to the story would be quite a spoiler for my group. But they will need these abilities for core points in the campaign. If it looks like I can't balance encounters after a couple more sessions I may make it situational. (Under great stress or times of great need) For now I want to at least try to make this work. Balancing for large parties isn't an exact science in the first place in my opinion. There are so many variables, short and long rests, player choice of abilities/spells, tactics, magic items, waves of combat vs ambush, the dice rolls and so on.

I got the advice I was looking for though, I'll take the opinions with it as well. :)

Thanks!

[Bidmaron]

Sounds very intriguing, Skillkoil. I always loved dip your toe in the shallow end but wind up swimming the English Channel kind of campaigns.

[Skillkoil]

Sounds very intriguing, Skillkoil. I always loved dip your toe in the shallow end but wind up swimming the English Channel kind of campaigns.

I really hope I can make this an eighth as deep as the English Channel. I am enjoying the experience of creating this world and the challenge of making it entertaining, surprising and compelling for my players.

[Intruder]

OPINION: I do a LOT of encounter balancing in 5e. If all you have done is grant each PC a limited damage boost, then
adding HP to an NPC should be done sparingly.

An average encounter only lasts 3-4 rounds. The additional damage has a limited number of applications, and then only if
a HIT is scored.

With your 1 minute time limit, how many attacks are possible multiplied by the percentage change to score a hit against the NPC
type?

More NPC HPs should enable the NPC to attack maybe 1-2 additional rounds. Increase the "to-hit" bonus.
This will make the NPC more dangerous if not killed quickly.

[Skillkoil]

OPINION: I do a LOT of encounter balancing in 5e. If all you have done is grant each PC a limited damage boost, then
adding HP to an NPC should be done sparingly.

An average encounter only lasts 3-4 rounds. The additional damage has a limited number of applications, and then only if
a HIT is scored.

With your 1 minute time limit, how many attacks are possible multiplied by the percentage change to score a hit against the NPC
type?

More NPC HPs should enable the NPC to attack maybe 1-2 additional rounds. Increase the "to-hit" bonus.
This will make the NPC more dangerous if not killed quickly.

Their 1 minute abilities are seperate from the d4 damage boost. The 1 minute daily abilities are movement buffs for the character.

As for the "to-hit" bonus that is something I was considering as well. In fact one encounter I created I changed the bonus to hit on the NPC's from +4 to +6 and gave them a small bonus to HP.

Another strategy I am using to insure that combat is meaningful and has enough threat is having waves prepared for the players. So if in the first or second round of combat they are just tearing down my NPC's, I can introduce reinforcements of the same or higher CR depending on how combat is going. Now I can't use this all the time, but it seems to me a legitimate way to keep combat right on the edge of too easy and too hard. At least until I have spent enough time with the party to learn what is appropriate for them.

I hope that makes sense. :)

[Skillkoil]

So the biggest thing in balancing combat in 5E is action economy. Since you have 6 players instead of 4, you need to add 50% more NPCs to encounters to start with.

If I want to have an encounter with my party that is more balanced in number of enemies vs player characters. Let's say 6-8 NPC's for the 6 players. Could I not increase HP and add an extra attack or ability to replace the increase in NPC's by 50%? I would love to get your opinion.

[LordEntrails]

If I want to have an encounter with my party that is more balanced in number of enemies vs player characters. Let's say 6-8 NPC's for the 6 players. Could I not increase HP and add an extra attack or ability to replace the increase in NPC's by 50%? I would love to get your opinion.
Aure, it's just harder to do. Or more "swingy" depending upon die rolls.Because of crits. Having a lower ratio of NPC to PCs also means, depending upon terrain, the PCs have a better than "normal" ability to control the battlefield and keep the NPCs off the casters.

But, all that depends on a lot of factors such as NPC tactics, PC tactics, battlefield terrain, abilities, ranged vs melee attacks/control,etc.

As you are seeing, their are lots of ways to keep balance. Once you are comfortable with one or two, keep exploring others. It will keep varying things for the PCs as well, and that's usually a good thing to keep them thinking and trying new things too. Combat is never much fun when each combat ends up being just the same as every other.

I will add, I really like waves like you mentioned earlier, especially when you want nearly deadly encounters, because you can keep pushing them closer and closer in little bumps. Of course, you have to make the players think the waves were planned in advance and not just a tool you are using to take them to the edge.

The other piece of advice I have heard recently, don't tell your players afterwards about any of the metagame stuff you have done. Don't tell them you changed NPC HPs or kept adding waves or anything else. Whether they win or lose a combat, always let them bask in the illusion that you had nothing to do with it. Don't steal that magic from them :)

[Skillkoil]

The other piece of advice I have heard recently, don't tell your players afterwards about any of the metagame stuff you have done. Don't tell them you changed NPC HPs or kept adding waves or anything else. Whether they win or lose a combat, always let them bask in the illusion that you had nothing to do with it. Don't steal that magic from them :)

Yes, that my friend is exactly what I plan to do! Thanks again to all of you for the feedback, you really got me thinking about lots of different things that will help me. ^5