Battle length

[richvalle]

This was prompted by a post from kalmarjan:


Last night it really sucked, as the group was up against 14 Hobgoblins, 9 Goblins, 8 Elite Hobgoblins, 6 dogs, a nasty Dire ape, A Hobgoblin Adept and A particularly nasty Hobgoblin with a Double Bladed Sword.

Count in 7 Players with Cohorts and Summonings, and it REALLY sucks when you crash.

Combat took 5 hours, but one of those was trying to resolve the crashing issues.

Sandeman

I've been trading emails with my players about our last game. We had 6 characters (all 6th level) plus a druids wolf companion vs 7 med scorpions. 6 large centipeds showed up during the fight but didn't last long.

The fight took about 4 hours. We use Teamspeak for voice comm during the game.

kalmarjan how the heck were you able to run that fight in 4 hours?

rv

[John_Geeshu]

Why does it take so long? That's what I want to know.

[Kalan]

the main reasons combat in most d20 Systems take so long is the tactical nature of it, especially at the higher levels when you have a LOT more options to you.

Had the party been primarily fighters/fighter types - combats tend to go a LOT quicker. Once you toss casters into the mix - it just gets downright oogly.

I've seen LIVE games take upwards of 2hours to resolve combats fair less complex than those (and having judged some RPGA events in the past this has been my experience watching much higher level parties than I was involved with. Even my own low level parties tended to take an hour on some fights).


I'd hazard a guess that anything up to about Level 5 or 6 runs fairly quickly (depending on party size), but once you get higher than that...it just gets oogly...

[richvalle]

Why does it take so long? That's what I want to know.

Per one of my players:

Let's see, source of delays:

player indecision about what to do - 10%
reviving player who has fallen into a coma between their turns - 5%
looking up spiritual hammer and other common spells - 10%
figuring out how many plusses should have been on that die roll - 5%
hypercritical second guessing of rules on my part 0.0000000001%
extraneous banter - 5%
need to repeat conversation due to overlap/ cutout 5%
dead time waiting for someone to respond when they aren't 5%
whispering to DM 5%
grappling, glitterdust, blindness, grease, overrun, tumble 10%
six players + dog 30%
seven scorpions for almost the entire battle 10%

[kalmarjan]

I've been trading emails with my players about our last game. We had 6 characters (all 6th level) plus a druids wolf companion vs 7 med scorpions. 6 large centipeds showed up during the fight but didn't last long.

The fight took about 4 hours. We use Teamspeak for voice comm during the game.

kalmarjan how the heck were you able to run that fight in 4 hours?


Well, the reason it took so long was that not all creatures were in the skirmish at the same time. Some had to move up to 210 feet before joining the fray.

The party was 7 characters all level 4. Plus one wolf companion and a celestial eagle. (And an invisable adept with a wand of cure light.)

How did the battle go so short? Are you kidding me? 4 hours for one battle is pretty long in my books.

It all comes down to being organized. One thing I will say about the tracker is it is pretty cool to keep track of spells/buffs. WHEN IT DOES NOT CRASH THE MACHINE!

I am going to give DM's Familiar a go for inbetween combat.

If you are using teamspeak, I would suggest that the combat would go much quicker.. I do not use teamspeak, but I also "prompt" the players to keep the combat moving faster.

I have been playing D&D for about 20 years now, so maybe that has something to do with it.

I really do not know how to really answer the question, but good luck with your combats in the future..

Sandeman

[kalmarjan]

dead time waiting for someone to respond when they aren't 5%

I put in a house rule that if the player does not respond in 3 prompts, then they lose the action, unless they tell us "brb" or "awk", in which case they are assumed to do the same action as their last turn. (Unless they specify different)


looking up spiritual hammer and other common spells - 10%


If the player uses the spell, it is curtesy for them to already have the hotkeys set up for this, no? Guess I am lucky there.


grappling, glitterdust, blindness, grease, overrun, tumble 10%


If the tracker did not crash my machine, then it would really shine here. I had a similar situation with grease and entangle.


six players + dog 30%
seven scorpions for almost the entire battle 10%

It really helps that your players coordinate. The group that I have going are really awesome in that respect. When the dire ape showed up, they concentrated their attacks and took him out. Then the BBEG was concentrated on.

Another thing, several players had to go out and leave.... which meant that I was playing them as well.

At the one time I was running all the 13 Hobgoblins, 9 Elite Hobgoblins, 8 Goblins, Dire Ape, Adept(invisable), Fighter Hobgoblin, 6 Dogs, a Wolf companion, a rogue(pc), Fighter(pc), Bard(pc), Ranger(pc).

Add into that the buff spells the BBEG had, plus the elite hobgoblin, and you are looking at a big mess. I almost wish that the players had run, but they decided to take on the whole shebang...

And won. WOW!

My players rule.!

Sandeman

[Ilwan]

With that encounter and number of players, that fight would have taken 4 hours easily in my live group. Since we use a battleboard and play the rules straight forward, maybe the amount of time is a little less. I would have liked to see that battle.

[DarkStar]

My first combat (which was first combat ran by me in D&D ever - and it was here, in FG, I never played D&D before I bought this software ;D) was kinda slow and it was 1PC vs 2 goblins. Second combat (5PCs vs 6 goblins) was quite quick (at least it's how I see it on the DM's side, ask my players) and every battle gets quicker and smoother.

Last battle we had was 4 PCs (rogue, monk, ranger, sorcerer - no real fighters, as you can see) vs 4 human fighters/warriors + 1 medium boss (also a fighter). It ran very smooth in my point of view.

I am a D&D n00b, but I have some experienced players who are eager to help me out with the rules whenever I need their assistance, I am having less and less problems. :)

Personally, I love the tactical aspect of combat in D&D. Yes, it can take a lot of time, but fights are very enjoyable that way, it's not just "sword swinging" and rolling a die, you actually have to think, plan your movements, watch out for attacks of opportunity and coordinate everything in order to stay alive.

One thing we do, which wasn't even a house rule, it kinda evolved on it's own, is that when a player wants to undertake a special attack or another special move (i.e. cast a spell or use a special ability) they roleplay it and give me a OOC summary of the rules, like telling me his spell DC, additional effects, etc. That way I don't have to remember everything all the time and I don't have to lookup stuff in SRD so often.

[kalmarjan]

With that encounter and number of players, that fight would have taken 4 hours easily in my live group. Since we use a battleboard and play the rules straight forward, maybe the amount of time is a little less. I would have liked to see that battle.

You can see the chatlog here.

https://www.fouruglymonsters.com/fumcomm/posting.php

Please excuse the cursing from the crashes. :)

This chatlog has been cleaned BTW

Sandeman

[Cantstanzya]

My battles take some time as well, but probably the quickest way to speed things up is for the players to have their actions ready to go when they are called on. It was very frustrating in the beginning when I would call on someone for their turn and they would then start to type what they are going to do. They should have their actions already typed in and when I call on them for their turn all they should be doing is hitting enter and then rolling the dice. Personally I think 3 prompt is way to generous. If you call on them and they don't respond .... they lose their turn. Especially since they can have two actions prepaired (using the tab key) plus all they can store in the hot keys. Also, the slower things go the more time the players have to be distracted and they don't pay attention, which in turn slows things down even more. I am hoping 1.06 will really speed the combat up because that is where I feel the software has the most room for improvement.

[richvalle]

I tried to figure out some numbers.

The battle lasted about 8 rounds. Thats one round every 30 min. That works out to 2.5 min per player per round (but includes me taking the turn of 7-11 critters at a time).

It also means a player is taking one turn every 30 min.

This battle was a bit odd in that the scorpions ended up gang grappling the main fighter just inside the door to the room. Besides taking out the main tank it somewhat plugged the doorway and stopped others from getting into the room.

Added to this was an effect that gave creatures in the room Magic Resist 15. The main spell slinger failed twice on his two tries with magic missle and then he gave up.

So the top two damage dealers were nutralized and the party had a hard time getting 'metal on target' due to the terrain.

Once the main figher got free and situated (darn Grease spells!) the fight lasted about 4 rounds.

[Ilwan]

You can see the chatlog here.

https://www.fouruglymonsters.com/fumcomm/posting.php

Please excuse the cursing from the crashes. :)

This chatlog has been cleaned BTW

Sandeman

The link doesnt work Sandeman.

[kalmarjan]

Okay, apparently linking to the page that you were typing the posting in does not work :)

I have updated the boards that I run to allow anyone access to the chatlogs. Back in the day I had two groups, (Sort of) so I had to limit the access of what could be read so there was no spoilers. Well, now there is just one group, so without further ado, here is the REAL link for it. :)

https://s9.invisionfree.com/FG_RTTTOEE/index.php?showtopic=174

Sandeman

[Ilwan]

Holy manoly, thx Ill need an hour at least to go through it. :D

[Craw]

Also, the slower things go the more time the players have to be distracted and they don't pay attention, which in turn slows things down even more.

No kidding! For this reason, I have moved toward fewer opponents of higher level. I am also starting to become a bit of a nazi about being ready when your turn comes. My players are pretty good about being ready and delays for questions are relevant and to the point. We have been able to get through most battles and post-battle search/healing in about an hour each. However, most of these involve 1-3 opponents powerful enough to represent a challenge rating higher than the average party level.

On the rare occasion that I run multiple weaker opponents, I like to resolve all of their moves and attacks in one initiative count. I move them all then roll all attacks at once (actually I roll one die mulitple times if there are differing attack mods so I get a clean log) and then parse out the damage. Saves quite a bit of time.

[kalmarjan]

Heh.

I do the same. Basically I follow the old D&D routine for initiative:

All simular monsters (such as Hobgoblins) get the same init, and act on the order (alphabetically). This battle was a little harder as there was 8 different groups of monsters to follow.

As for turns, the players are pretty good about their turns. It usually takes my players less than 20 seconds to respond. I think I conditioned them to this by doing something like this:


5....
4....
3....
2....
1....

You would be surprised how fast someone responds when they see the timer ticking down. :)

Seriously though, as long as the battle is fun, who cares how long it takes?

One thing though:

As for the rules and such, I recently rediscovered DM Genie which I had up on the dusty shelf. (Okay, the dusty file folder... one day I will get to cleaning up my 300 gigs worth of space LOL)

I just have to relearn it, and then, I will have all the automation I could ever want. The combat tracker is most excellent, and it can pretty much do everything except for sharpening your pencil when you are filling out the character sheet. (Which is a moot point since you can just print the sheet anyways. :) )

I am going to give it a try for the next couple of sessions, and see how it works out. Perhaps this will convince me to pick up a cheap laptop. (I can dream)

Sandeman

[richvalle]

I still don't want to have to switch back and forth between programs. Unless I can get a 2nd monitor or a laptop (as you say) I think I'll stick with FG for now.

I have asked my players to try and be ready when their turn comes up. We have some dnd newbies and pre 3.5 players in our group.

Also some players that want to discuss all their options with the group before they deside what to do. Time to crack the whip! :)

I like that count down method kalmarjan. Might have to give that a try.

rv

[kalmarjan]

LOL

Learned it from a DM in one of the rare times I have played D&D in my life. (as a player, not a DM.)

He did it to keep suspense. The trick is not to everuse it. (It does lose its effect after a while.)


I remember it going this way:


DM: As you open the tome and glance at the runes in the inside, the page begins to shimmer, and the runes start to glow red hot. An acrid smoke pours out of the pages, choking you. As the pages get hotter, your head swims as a viper of flame appears from the letters. What do you do?

Me: Uhh, well, I could...
Other player: Dude! Drop the book!
Another player: No wait! It could be something cool.
Yet another player: If you think that would be cool, your crazy
Another Player: Hmm... I remeber something about a spell that I read about this...
Other player and Another Player: Yes! We'll look it up..

DM: Well, the runes are glowing, and the page has burst into the flames. The flame viper coils itself around your arm, sending shimmering flames and total agony through you. What are you doing?

Other Player and Another Player: What? Wait a sec... looking it up

DM: 5....

Me: I am going to drop it, no WAIT! WAIT! I think I should hold on to it, Guys, what do you think?

DM: 4....
3...

Yet another player: Oh no... do something!

Me: Okay! Okay! I grit my teeth and bear the flames and try to grab at the Viper. I roll a 16, my thac0 is 12. Do I grab it?


As you can see... it can be very effective. If you want to really make your players jump at what to do about the trap, or an ultimatum, it really is the way to go.

Sandeman

Who is amused by the reference to AD&D and shivering at the memory of Thac0

[richvalle]

Didn't the first Tome of Horrors do something like this as well? I think there were several places where the dm had to start counting down from 10. If he got to 0, everyone died. Actually I think everyone died anyway. :)

rv