Paperspace as a Virtual Machine for Running FG

[Gwydion]

Good afternoon, everyone. So I'm still playing around with this, but I set up a virtual machine today using paperspace. It was super easy with no real technical knowledge needed. I found a code that got me a $10 credit to test it out as I was curious if it would be an option to run FG. I signed up for a standard hourly package with the following specs:

RAM: 8GB
CPUs: 4
GPU: 512 MB

Per hour rate: $0.10

Note that there is an "Air" version with the following specs which I haven't tried yet:

RAM: 4GB
CPUs: 2
GPU: 512 MB

Per hour rate: $0.07

The fees for how I set mine up are as follows:

Standard flat rate fee for 50 gb SSD storage ($5 /mo) (note, this is a must have. they charge this as a minimum).
Snapshot (ability to create a snapshot to roll back your machine at any time) $1 /mo
Static IP address ($3 /mo)

With the above configuration/setup, I had FG installed, up and running very quickly. The package comes with a windows license and includes windows defender, so I had to add a rule to windows defender to allow FG on the VM, but once I did that, I passed the connection test without issue. You connect with their native app (not RDP) and it seems super fast. I ran a speed test on the machine and was getting like 400 mps down and nearly 200 up I think.

So, if I kept this setup and ran FG 4 hrs/day for 15 days/mo (total of 60 hrs/mo), it would cost me $15/mo ($180/yr).

The reasons I'm toying with this are 1) I stream and it would be nice to offload some of the stress on my laptop by having a "second computer". I can also capture the screen for the virutal machine (the native app) and stream it through obs. I tested this and it seemed to work great. 2) I'm still looking for options for folks that can't port forward!

Couple FYI's:

They use the windows server edition 2016 and I've been updating it throughout the day to get it current. It takes quite a while to update but once I have it up to date I'll assume it should be pretty painless.

DirectX seemed to be native with the software as FG ran just fine with no issue.

Although you get 50 gb of SSD storage, I think I had about 12 gb to use before I installed anything (Windows and a couple other programs took up a lot of space!). I think for $1 more per month I could go up to 100 gb storage.

They only have two datacenters. One west coast and one east coast. I tried to use west coast but it said there were no more static ips available, so I select east coast and was fine.

I believe you must get the static ip for this to work. I read some faq's on their site and it does not appear you can port forward. With the static ip, it was great.

I'll keep playing with this but thought others might want to take a peek as well.

[Erin Righ]

cool, thanks for sharing

[Halfront]

This is very interesting to see if it fleshes out and works:)

[sirkerry]

Neat, have you determined if the DOE: Sounds extension works from it yet?

[Gwydion]

Yes it works fine. Tried that today. Connected from my normal computer to it and the sounds triggered fine.

[twistedtechmike]

If they dont port-forward, then how can you use it as a host machine?

[Andraax]

If they dont port-forward, then how can you use it as a host machine?

With a dedicated IP and no firewall in front of it, no port-forwarding is needed. Port-forwarding is used to bypass firewalls.

[Gwydion]

If they dont port-forward, then how can you use it as a host machine?

Similar to how I use PureVPN with a dedicate ip address. Since I have a static ip, as I understand it, all ports are essentially open so no port forwarding is necessary. I've never had to port forward with PureVPN either.

Edit: What ^^ said... Ninja'd by Andraax! :)

[twistedtechmike]

So its just a server fully exposed to the internet? Sounded great until then! A VPN would be a completely different scenario, and one that I could understand.

Port-forwarding doesn't bypass a firewall, its just part of a firewall's job to control traffic inbound and outbound.

[Gwydion]

Well wait a second. I'm not sure I completely agree that the server is fully exposed to the internet. Maybe I didn't describe it well. How is this VM any different than my own computer? The VM has windows defender and an active firewall. That isn't really different than my laptop, right? Would love to hear from damned or trenloe or maybe you do understand. I've never professed to be a true tech guy, I just like to figure stuff out. I'll search their site for more info on security, etc.. and post back here.

[twistedtechmike]

If you dont have a router performing port-forwarding, its a 1:1 NAT which means the server is wide open to the Internet.

[Andraax]

Port-forwarding doesn't bypass a firewall, its just part of a firewall's job to control traffic inbound and outbound.

Port-forwarding opens a port in a firewall that allows any traffic on that port to bypass the firewall. It's a hole in the firewall - small, and well known (because it's intentional) - but a hole none the less.

[twistedtechmike]

Technically its not a hole, its a static route (NAT). We just like to call them pinholes :) Regardless, the way this is being described is a 1:1 NAT where all ports are being forwarded to the VM. Windows firewall is good, but I wouldnt put anything on the net with a 1:1.

[twistedtechmike]

Full disclaimer, I've been in IT since 98. Not trying to sound like a d-bag, just trying to educate.

[damned]

Technically its not a hole, its a static route (NAT). We just like to call them pinholes :) Regardless, the way this is being described is a 1:1 NAT where all ports are being forwarded to the VM. Windows firewall is good, but I wouldnt put anything on the net with a 1:1.

By default, a new instance of a modern windows operating system will install with all ports firewalled and the network zone set to Public. In this state there really isnt a whole lot of practical difference between a hardware firewall not forwarding any packets and a software firewall dropping all packets. Of course the user of that system may make changes to that configuration with or without fully understanding what it is they are doing... just as they might to a hardware firewall device...

[twistedtechmike]

The difference in the Windows firewall, is when you open ports. Opening port 80 does not restrict it to HTTP. That's where you want a hardware firewall with packet inspection, to filter by protocol, not just port. It's much more than just port open/close to worry about with security. I think we've gone beyond the scope of the OP at this point. It sounds like a great idea, to have a full time, hosted FG instance, but Im not sure this is the route I would personally go.

I agree with you completely, damned, on dropping packets.

[Gwydion]

This definitely got above my knowledge but I appreciate all the additional education to me and others reading this thread. I did want to ask another question as I await any further input from the paperspace tech team. Does it help twistedtechmike that paperspace doesn't using port 80 to communicate and therefore I don't think windows ever opens port 80 absent me creating some rule to allow it? See the two articles below from paperspace. Just trying to learn and appreciate the eyes on this!

https://paperspace.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002244367-What-ports-does-Paperspace-use-

https://paperspace.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/236401787-What-types-of-firewalls-and-anti-virus-software-does-Paperspace-support-

[Andraax]

Full disclaimer, I've been in IT since 98. Not trying to sound like a d-bag, just trying to educate.

Full disclaimer, I've been in IT since 1978.

[Gwydion]

Full disclaimer... I am NOT in IT...... but I did stay at a Holiday....... ;)

[twistedtechmike]

Those ports are for their internal network and applications. I only used 80/HTTP as an example, sorry if this caused confusion. I'm only nitpicking, because its a topic I am interested in, and would consider pursuing myself. If there's no buffer between the internet and PC other than Windows Firewall, its a hard no for me. To each their own, and lets be honest, FG data is not very sensitive. If the PC was compromised, what would you really lose?

[LordEntrails]

Those ports are for their internal network and applications. I only used 80/HTTP as an example, sorry if this caused confusion. I'm only nitpicking, because its a topic I am interested in, and would consider pursuing myself. If there's no buffer between the internet and PC other than Windows Firewall, its a hard no for me. To each their own, and lets be honest, FG data is not very sensitive. If the PC was compromised, what would you really lose?
My 8th level half-orc barbarian!

[Gwydion]

Those ports are for their internal network and applications. I only used 80/HTTP as an example, sorry if this caused confusion. I'm only nitpicking, because its a topic I am interested in, and would consider pursuing myself. If there's no buffer between the internet and PC other than Windows Firewall, its a hard no for me. To each their own, and lets be honest, FG data is not very sensitive. If the PC was compromised, what would you really lose?

Got it.. Sorry about that. I did take that too literally! Not surprisingly, their tech team just confirmed most of the discussion here. Here is the full email I received:
__________________________________________________ ______
Hi there,

He is correct in that a public IP is indeed public and reachable by anyone on the internet. You are responsible in protecting your machine, but if you have the correct firewall rules you shouldn't have much to worry about.

There is a lot of info online about setting it up correctly. One piece of advice - take snapshots before you make any config changes so that if you do mess anything up you can revert back to a working state. Also please see our Do's and Don'ts.

Let me know if you have any questions.

__________________________________________________ _________

I think I will continue playing with it as I will only keep FG on it most likely so for me, the benefits might outweigh any potential risk. Thanks again for helping educate me!

[twistedtechmike]

Im still interested to see how it plays with several clients connected, so please keep us in the loop!

[Gwydion]

I definitely will!

[Ken L]

No offense, but for 180/yr you may as well go for a full subscription web service like powerVTT or roll20. To each their own though, but I use each platform for its strength.

[twistedtechmike]

@Ken: As someone who has a 5 user license for d20pro and had a full roll20 subscription, I can say without hesitation there is no replacement for Fantasy Grounds. Dynamic lighting in the other two does not compare to power of FG. Paperspace is a much cheaper alternative to full blown hosting like Rackspace though, which has me curious. Im thinking a 24/7 FG instance would make a PbP session doable, which interests the hell out of me.

[Ken L]

PowerVTT / Astral is another contender for the subscription web VTT space, there's more than Roll20 now. FG's core strength is standalone, and interface control for the modding aspect, if your machine is struggling to run it then you may need to change gears rather than putting a dolphin in a motorized fishtank.

[twistedtechmike]

I think the OP's issue was Internet bandwidth, and my interest is not hardware related.

[sirkerry]

Yes it works fine. Tried that today. Connected from my normal computer to it and the sounds triggered fine.

Sweet! Thanks for checking.

[Segin]

... grrr.. nevermind.

[Gwydion]

PowerVTT / Astral is another contender for the subscription web VTT space, there's more than Roll20 now. FG's core strength is standalone, and interface control for the modding aspect, if your machine is struggling to run it then you may need to change gears rather than putting a dolphin in a motorized fishtank.

Just to clarify for anyone reading this thread about why I started it. I just like to tinker/try new things to see if I can start some discussion with folks on potential new ways to use FG or perhaps start people much smarter than me in finding uses of software/products that might unlock some new, exciting way to game, stream, use FG, etc.. My machine is actually great. Works fine. I do worry given how much I tax it with FG, Syrinscape, OBS, Ableton live, StreamElements, midi controller for sounds, etc. that at some point I will hit my wall with it, but thankfully so far that hasn't happened.

I stumbled across paperspace and though it might be an interesting concept as I've never tried any rent on demand server (other than the office where we do rent some VM's through AWS). I thought it might be interesting to try. I especially find it intriguing that it appears I could pretty easily run FG through a chromebook or any laptop with minimal specs if I want by connecting to the VM. I actually played around with launching FG on the VM by connecting from my iPad and, although I certainly wouldn't recommend it, I thought it was pretty cool that I could even connect to it, launch maps, pull up the CT, etc..! It sounds like paperspace is working on more tablet support, so I might keep poking around with this just to mess around.

Twistedtechmike - I will test this out more in a group setting sometime but I had Rob2e connect to me and I connected using a different FG license I have. So, I was tapped into the VM and running it as the DM, Rob connected as a player and I separately connected as a player. I had rob open virtually all of his modules and I shared some maps and it all seemed to run smoothly with no slowdown from his end that was noticeable. Still not a perfect test, but I will keep you posted.

Happy gaming all!

[twistedtechmike]

Thanks for the update! Ive already started looking at options to test myself!

[Gwydion]

Thanks for the update! Ive already started looking at options to test myself!

Awesome! Let us know what you find as well.

[sirkerry]

Just to clarify for anyone reading this thread about why I started it. I just like to tinker/try new things to see if I can start some discussion with folks on potential new ways to use FG or perhaps start people much smarter than me in finding uses of software/products that might unlock some new, exciting way to game, stream, use FG, etc.. My machine is actually great. Works fine. I do worry given how much I tax it with FG, Syrinscape, OBS, Ableton live, StreamElements, midi controller for sounds, etc. that at some point I will hit my wall with it, but thankfully so far that hasn't happened.

I for one and very glad you did. I'm going to set myself up an account there and see what I can do with. Wonder if Voice Meeter Banana will run on it?

[Gwydion]

I for one and very glad you did. I'm going to set myself up an account there and see what I can do with. Wonder if Voice Meeter Banana will run on it?

I think it should. No reason why it shouldn't. My understanding is that you should be able to load and run most any software. There is also USB forwarding which I don't completely understand, but I think it means, as one example, if I loaded a DAW like Ableton Live Lite and wanted to control it with a midi-controller like novation launchpad, I could load the software on the VM, connect novation to a usb port on my computer, and use the launchpad just like it was connected to the VM. That might not be a novel concept, but it seemed interesting to me!

Oh... and I can't wait until Voicemeeter Potato launches... Beta supposed to come as soon as next week. As I understand it, it will more hardware and virtual inputs and outputs. Can't wait!

[Gwydion]

I for one and very glad you did. I'm going to set myself up an account there and see what I can do with. Wonder if Voice Meeter Banana will run on it?

Oh... when you set up your account, you might want to do a google search for coupon/referral codes for Paperspace. I quickly and easily found a $10 code that I used. So, I will play with it for a couple months before I decide if its something I want to keep.