FGs biggest problem

[Dugahst]

Seems to me that the biggest problem it suffers from is a lack of support.
By this I mean there are really only rulesets for a couple of games. Sure there is Core which is meant to be able to run anything, but from a practical standpoint it just doesn't (i've tried).

Now I'm not saying that they need to have the full rulebooks, monster manuals, and adventures of every game (as they have done with 5th edition D&D), but to just take the time to create fully functioning character/npc sheets with proper dice rolling for the games would go a long way.

I think this problem is more of a man power issue, I recall hearing in various youtube interviews that they only have a 'few guys'-- and these few are split between working on unity and current products (5e, path/starfinder, etc)-- hire some more, or source out some contractors.

If you look at the biggest competitor for FG (Roll20) they support so many more games (granted this is mainly because everything is html based and so the community can easily build functioning character/npc's).
FG has something like 13 or 14 native games (not including the Core ruleset for the reason listed above) where as Roll20 has nearly every game there is, want to play an AGE game its there, want to play Open Legend its there, DCC, ICONS, the list goes on (and on, and on, really there are a ton).

Don't misunderstand this post, I love FG (i got the ultimate license and own hundreds of dollars worth of content), but it's very disheartening when I find a cool looking game system and the first thing that pops in my head is "Well I can't play this in Fantasy Grounds (and I don't want to use Roll20) guess it's not happening at all."

I mean even if they hired 1 or 2 extra people and dedicated them to just making a functioning character/npc sheets (with the proper dice rolling) for systems it'd go a long long way.

[damned]

There are hundreds and hundreds of games that can be played with MoreCore.
It has support for over 60 unique dice rolls and you can build out Character Sheets quite easily once you work out how best to use the rolls.
I play several different game systems with MoreCore.
It also has several Combat Tracker enhancements over CoreRPG as well as Party Sheet and many other features.

It has support for AGE stunt dice. Legend. DCC has its own full ruleset that is very awesome. Im not familiar with Icons. The last 5 systems MoreCore rolls were added for include WEG's d6, Tiny RPG, Powers and Perils, Kult Divinity Lost, The Dark Eye (German game - Das Schwarz Auge or something like that). It supports PbtA, Torg, Metamorphosis Alpha, 2d20, Tunnels and Trolls, Ubiquity, Talislanta, Pendragon, Traveller, Symbaraoum, Harn, The Black Crusade, Dead Simple Roleplaying, Qin, 7th Sea, Legend of the Five Rings and many, many more.

[Dugahst]

I've used morecore to run a game before (shadow of the demon lord) and while it works it is not very good because it is not made for the respective system. Furthermore to get it to work you (as in the GM) has to essentially program it to work, setting up custom dice rolls is not easy, hell setting up simple dice rolls is not easy or intuitive.

From the player side they have this blank character sheet that they have to learn to set up, which causes a few problems in and off itself. For example there is no commonality, IE one players sheet will likely be set up completely differently than anothers- as the GM trying to look at the sheets really sucks.

I'm not saying it won't work, i'm just saying it doesn't work well and for average people (IE those who are not super computer literate or programming geniuses) figuring out how to force it to work is not an option. Even with the Shadow of the Demon Lord game I ran which doesn't use any fancy dice expressions, my players (and admittedly myself) couldn't figure out how to get custom dice rolls to work off the character sheet. And if the players aren't used to FG it makes it all the more harder.

Simply put it is not easy, and therefore isn't a real option.

Also MoreCore isn't an option with the default client- it's a module that needs to be downloaded. Comparatively when the DM of a Roll20 game makes a new game, they just select from the drop down the system desired. Looking at the base FG list when choosing to create a game you get the following; 3.5e, 4e, 5e, Basic Roleplaying, Call of Cthulhu, Castles and Crusade, CoreRPG, Fate Core, Numenera, Pathfinder, Rolemaster Classic, and Savage Worlds. THATS IT! Anything else has to be downloaded as a module and set up by the GM. That's pretty pathetic when you compare it to the competition.

As I said in my original post, I love FG. I'm just offering some honest and constructive criticism. I know it will likely fall on deaf ears, but maybe not.

[Myrdin Potter]

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?92-Rulesets

Plus there are a few more hidden in the different WiP forums (like a very functional AD&D and 2e AD&D ruieset). As damned mentioned, there is a very good DCC ruleset (mentioned above by you as missingj.

I have tried some of the Roll20 other games set-ups and they are about on level with the core rpg ruleset here, and more core is even higher functionality.

What I find is really missing here is a base OSR D&D ruleset, and Swords and Wizardry is bpbeing worked on now,

[Trenloe]

Unfortunately, for Smiteworks to "just take the time to create fully functioning character/npc sheets with proper dice rolling for the games" would not be enough for the majority of people. They'll want customized combat trackers, customized items, spells, feats, etc., etc., etc.. Spending many, many hours of developer time to produce an "official Smiteworks" character and sheet for a single RPG system and package it with Fantasy Grounds would be like doing half of the work and leaving it incomplete. People always want more, and if it's provided by SmiteWorks will expect more to come too! The level of automation in the 5E ruleset has set the bar that everyone now expects. This requires many hundreds of hours of developer time. My view on this is that spending a lot of money on a full time developer to do what you're asking would have little return compared to the investment, and result in people being disappointed with the result - wanting more and more automation for their favourite RPG system.

As has been mentioned above, MoreCore can do a lot of what you're asking for (PC and NPC sheets with dice rolling mechanics). What we're missing here is an extensive library of example PC/NPC sheets that are setup with most of the rolls to get you started. Sure, you still have to download the ruleset and copy it to a directory (a few clicks of a mouse, nothing more) and you'd have to do the same for example MoreCore PC/NPC sheets. But once this is done (takes a couple of minutes) then you're good to start using the sheets and creating custom PCs and NPCs.

This idea has already been done for some systems using the CoreRPG ruleset - see this thread: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23138-Share-Game-System-Character-Sheets But it would be good for the same to be done for MoreCore. Maybe even take it a step further and have some pre-made campaigns including settings/labels setup for a specific RPG system.

@Dugahst - maybe your idea can be modified to be along these lines? Help to get some of the community members who have used MoreCore to run a game in FG to post example PC and NPC sheets, so that others can get over the hurdles you mention of setting up the rolls and base character sheets? Here's an example of what I'm talking about - this is for The Dark Eye - which includes example PC and NPC sheets to get going quickly: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43697-The-Dark-Eye-(TDE)-MoreCore-Extension

[Andraax]

What I find is really missing here is a base OSR D&D ruleset, and Swords and Wizardry is bpbeing worked on now,

Castles and Crusades.

[LordEntrails]

C&C is 50% off right now, and it's inexpensive to begin with.

I will agree this is a problem. But to me its not a big one. I guess that's mainly because I don't have an interest in playing every new game (or the hundreds of 'old' ones) that comes along. I'm lucky that way, I'm happy using just about any system to play my adventures. I will add that I play in a Star Frontiers game that uses CoreRPG (DORCore) and compared to 5E the character sheet sucks. But, it works just fine in reality.

No problem if someone else wants to play every system that gets created. But as have been mentioned, supporting every game that comes along would actually be a really bad business decision for SmiteWorks. Most game systems would never recoup the financial investment. It's not just about hiring more people or contracting them to do the work, you have to be able to pay them a reasonable wage for their work.

That being said, their are ways to resolve almost all of your current concerns.
- Character sheets with custom rolls can be made. If it's difficult for you, ask for help. You know this place is full of people that will help each other.
- Inconsistent character sheets between players. Don't have the players make their own, make one and them distribute it to all the characters.
- ...

All that said, you want to play ICONS? Then start a post asking for help. Layout in detail what the dice mechanics are. Layout or give an example/link to a character sheet, ask for help setting it up. Ask nicely and be willing to put in your fair share of work and people will help :)

[JohnD]

As long as you have Castles & Crusades you have everything you need. :)

[Arion]

Unfortunately, for Smiteworks to "just take the time to create fully functioning character/npc sheets with proper dice rolling for the games" would not be enough for the majority of people. They'll want customized combat trackers, customized items, spells, feats, etc., etc., etc.. Spending many, many hours of developer time to produce an "official Smiteworks" character and sheet for a single RPG system and package it with Fantasy Grounds would be like doing half of the work and leaving it incomplete. People always want more, and if it's provided by SmiteWorks will expect more to come too! The level of automation in the 5E ruleset has set the bar that everyone now expects. This requires many hundreds of hours of developer time. My view on this is that spending a lot of money on a full time developer to do what you're asking would have little return compared to the investment, and result in people being disappointed with the result - wanting more and more automation for their favourite RPG system.

As has been mentioned above, MoreCore can do a lot of what you're asking for (PC and NPC sheets with dice rolling mechanics). What we're missing here is an extensive library of example PC/NPC sheets that are setup with most of the rolls to get you started. Sure, you still have to download the ruleset and copy it to a directory (a few clicks of a mouse, nothing more) and you'd have to do the same for example MoreCore PC/NPC sheets. But once this is done (takes a couple of minutes) then you're good to start using the sheets and creating custom PCs and NPCs.



I find myself disagreeing with you! Although i have run a 5e campaign, and it was very good indeed, i find myself wishing that there was just a character sheet for [insert game here]. I know that MoreCore can do most things, but it did take me an age to set up a character sheet for each race. And then, when someone went up a level and a stat increased, i had to go in and modify the dice script etc.

I have run loads of WFRP2e using the superb Morecore ruleset, loads of Earthdawn (and that is a cracking rulseset too!), some WFRP 1e, and quite a few more from character sheet only rulesets. To be honest, i would quite happily buy say a Palladium Character sheet plus theme (with no programmed content) for say £5-10. Or Pendragon, or Star Wars D6, or basic D&D or (and i could go on).

I backed the idea of a Character Sheet Creator a while back because i am not a coding person and never will be. I myself publish 8 or so games. Two of them have had the Character Sheet treatment from fans (and although based on the old version, so no drag and drop) are fantastic. I would quite happily supply or back a character sheet (if there was a creator) for all my games as it would increase my sales and hopefully boost FG too.

[Valarian]

Just checked the list in the wiki. I counted 17 official rulesets and another 42 community rulesets. I'm sure that there are more listed on the forum that haven't been listed on the wiki.

[JohnD]

I find myself disagreeing with you! Although i have run a 5e campaign, and it was very good indeed, i find myself wishing that there was just a character sheet for [insert game here]. I know that MoreCore can do most things, but it did take me an age to set up a character sheet for each race. And then, when someone went up a level and a stat increased, i had to go in and modify the dice script etc.

I have run loads of WFRP2e using the superb Morecore ruleset, loads of Earthdawn (and that is a cracking rulseset too!), some WFRP 1e, and quite a few more from character sheet only rulesets. To be honest, i would quite happily buy say a Palladium Character sheet plus theme (with no programmed content) for say £5-10. Or Pendragon, or Star Wars D6, or basic D&D or (and i could go on).

I backed the idea of a Character Sheet Creator a while back because i am not a coding person and never will be. I myself publish 8 or so games. Two of them have had the Character Sheet treatment from fans (and although based on the old version, so no drag and drop) are fantastic. I would quite happily supply or back a character sheet (if there was a creator) for all my games as it would increase my sales and hopefully boost FG too.

You'd need someone willing to code a ruleset, 100s of hours of work, for essentially pennies on the dollar (if that) and a willingness on the part of the IP holder to allow Smiteworks to sell the product (and take their cut of course). I know you know that, but it bares being stated regardless.

[LordEntrails]

...
I backed the idea of a Character Sheet Creator a while back because i am not a coding person and never will be. I myself publish 8 or so games. Two of them have had the Character Sheet treatment from fans (and although based on the old version, so no drag and drop) are fantastic. I would quite happily supply or back a character sheet (if there was a creator) for all my games as it would increase my sales and hopefully boost FG too.
As JohnD implies, how much money are you willing to put forth to have these developed for your 8 game systems?

That's really what it comes down to. I'm suspect if you came out and offered a community developer $5000 USD you would probably find someone willing to do it for you (that's a WAG, I have no idea the expense, but that is a reasonable amount for each system, i.e. 100 hr x 50$/hr). But how many more games would you have to sell in order to recuperate that expense? Let's see, if a niche ruleset sells for $10 and the profit on that is maybe $8 (?) then that's 625 sales. Would you expect to sell that many?

I have no idea. But I do know the RPG market is pretty small. For the largest system on the market, 5E, if I look at what it takes to get into the top 10% of products on the DMsGuild, that only 50 sales. Since less than 1% hit gold, which is 500 sales is where you need to look at.

Now, most of those numbers are WAGs, and comparing the sale of a FG ruleset to a 3PP product on the DMsG is pretty loose at best. But it does give a very rough idea of the challenge all RPG publishers/authors/creators have. There are only a very few RPG endeavors that can afford to actually be done to the full potential from a business perspective. Which means that leaves it up to those that love something to expand/enhance/create it and either give it away for free, or for very low compensation.

Which means since so many of us love RPGs, we do those things on the side. And we give away or sell for very little what we create. Which means that the customer/player market expects things for free or very low cost. Which means that the industry can't afford to become fully professional because sales won't support it. Which means we don't get all of the potential. Which as you can guess means it's a self-fulfilling problem.

(Did all that make sense? I feel I didn't write that very clearly.)

[Zacchaeus]

Two nations separated by a common language. WAGs here is 'Wives and Girlfriends' usually of sporting superstars, usually footballers (Soccer players). Took me a while to figure out why such persons would have anything to to with RPGs LE :)

[Arion]

I am aware of all of the above, which comes back to the "FG's biggest problem"! If creating a ruleset costs many thousands of $, it won't happen, so it rarely happens. Thus games feel unsupported as the OP mentioned.

Some of my books have sold several thousands each, which is great, but profit margins are not huge. And of course writing the game takes many, many hours (well over a hundred) and so the wages i get per hour are a few $, so not really worth spending that tiny profit for a bit extra. Hence an easier way needed to create character sheets!

[damned]

Ultimately - having had this discussion many times before - over 50% of the market is either only interested in, or primarily only plays D&D 5E.
Add in PathFinder, 4E and 3.5E and you are well over 70% and based on some reports over 80% already.

They are simple numbers. Numbers usually tell a lot.

The next 10 biggest systems include World of Darkness*, Shadowrun*, Call of Cthulhu*, Savage Worlds*, Warhammer*, AD&D*, Dungeon World, Star Wars*, StarFinder*, Fate*. They take up between 15 and 20% of games played. (The asterisks indicate that there is some ruleset covering these at least partially already).

That leaves a very skinny number for the other 8,000 odd RPGs that people play.

---

Obviously having a fair bit to do with MoreCore my familiarity with it is probably higher than the OPs. Additionally the OP may have tried it before particular features were incorporated (it is on its 44th version). But in many cases setting up rolls is not that difficult.

Boon and Bane rolls are supported and automatically add the result to the Modifier. superteddy57 has set up a MoreCore extension and character sheet for how he uses it here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?44530-CoreRPG-MoreCore-Dice-Mechanics&p=395789

Yes - you do have to learn how to use it. But create a template character and export and import once you have it right.

How often do you level up? Is it asking your players too much to go and adjust a handful of entries when they level up? They had to learn how to use the 5E sheet too.

---

Im not positive but I do believe that many of the sheets for other game systems are not written by Roll20 themselves. They are written by community members just like here.

Writing a sheet for a new game is not as simple as picking up the PDF and converting it. You need to first learn the mechanics. This can take a long time and errors can be made by the person interpreting the rules. The conversion is best done by someone who is firstly familiar with the game system.

[Valatar]

I too would love dozens more systems supported! The trick is though that if someone's willing to do it, they either have to do it for free or work out a licensing deal with the owner of the game. If they try to charge money or solicit donations, they're opening themselves up to a legal hammering. Fortunately there are people in the community willing to do the work for free for the systems we currently have; without them FG would be a much less useful program.

[dulux-oz]

Just for a tad of context - the 13th Age Ruleset, which is based heavily on the existing 4E Ruleset, took over 900 man-hours of work to put together, test, refine, re-work, and publish - and that was just the time I spent. Add in the work Devin Knight did on the (excellent) Tokens for us, plus the work on the graphics by a number of people, and then the work required to proof and get it all published by the boys at SW, and the number of hours grows substantially. And it was the Character Sheet that took up just over half that time.

So using Lord E's figure of $5000 and a quick back-of-the-envelop calculation the Character Sheet alone would earn the coder approx $10/hr - and apart from doing the work as a hobby/love-of-it, there's no incentive for anyone to do it.

So it may sound like I'm agreeing (indirectly) with the OP, but I'm not, because you *CAN* run any game with just CoreRPG - I run two; Star Frontiers & Deadlands Classic - but you've got to think like it was when we played around an actual table - you know, blank sheets of paper for "character sheets", lego-men for minis, hordes of dice, and the games went on regardless :)

It's an expectation thing, that's all, not any real issue with the software - a bit like choosing not to play a computer game because you can't make/afford the "skin" you want.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Cheers

[spite]

I keep trying to write a response. I cant decide however, if I am in agreement or not with the OP. A huge turn off for me for morecore is the sheet is incredibly unintuitive for playing any game. Auto-alphabetising every section. Not allowing for modifiers to easily be understood, and a number of other minor gripes.
However, what it does give is already leaps above what Roll20 offers when it comes down to it. You have map interaction, health tracking on a universal combat tracker. The lions share of the grunt work (read: coding) has already been done. All Roll20's community supported smaller RPG sheets offer is a series of fillable macros. That's also not really thanks to Roll20 as a company, but from the much larger audience and community feeding into it.

As the other posters have said, the games that are supported officially and by community devs here at FG are of much higher calibre than anything Roll20 offers that it really is no comparison. The 40k sheets for example are insanely good. Look at Roll20? They're form fillable PDFs with clickable roll fields. Nothing that they spit out interacts with anything else in the way Fantasy Grounds behaves. That alone is, for me at least, a shiny wrapper with little substance.

However, people want shiny and they want to PERCEIVE their needs and wants being met. To the point where they'll slog through insane amounts of work and still claim that it's the underlying software that's so amazing because it allows them to do all this by themselves. And the fact that FG can not compete there is it's own biggest enemy. People see FG as too alien to conquer. Therefore I do agree with the OPs statement, it is among FG's biggest problems in attracting users.

[Arion]

I was writing my responses last night whilst trying to GM a WFRP2e over FG...

Anyway, to clarify my responses. I do agree with the OP that the biggest "problem" for FG users, especially new users, is the limited number of rulesets available (for a given value of limited). This is not to say that it is anyone's fault etc, just how it is.

To create a character sheet with a fixed set of appropriate boxes, labels and dice rollers requires either the skills of a programmer or a fan of the game who also knows how to code for FG. Therefore the alternative is MoreCore. I like MC, i have used it a lot for various games, and it does offer the option of running every game, but not straight off the bat. For some games it can be clunky and for others it takes a while to set up.

I have plenty of experience of setting up Morecore character sheets, but when i come to plan my next campaign, i usually go for one for which a character sheet is available, even if based on the old foundation/D20 etc. It looks nicer and is easier to handle.

I am not therefore suggesting that programmers work for almost nothing to set this up, nor am i suggesting that SW dedicate a vast amount of time to creating sheets for every possible game. If i could wave a magic wand, i would do one or both of the following:

A - Create "Mini-Rulesets". That is to say a functional character sheet and theme with rolls direct from the sheet, even if the only automation is damage, initiative etc. It does not even need game data in it, rather appropriate spell sheets and so forth. The WFRP2e sheet is beyond what i would go for here. These could be sold at say £5-10 depending on the complexity of the game.

B - A WYSIWYG Character Sheet creator. You draw boxes, add images and text etc much as any layout program, assign dice rolls to number boxes and so forth. This then exports it as a PAK file. I realise that this may not even be possible, but with the new version of FG coming this may be doable? This would solve this issue at a stroke because users could create whatever sheets they wanted and publishers could use it to create a FG ruleset for almost every system.

Would SW consider allowing the first of these commercially? Rather than focusing on huge all singing rulesets, go for smaller easier products. The developer still gets a cut as normal, but it would be a less daunting project.

[L. R. Ballard]

This community needs to start a Patreon run by a trustworthy member. That trustworthy member acts as a custodian over the Patreon's funds.

The goal of the Patreon is to crowdfund things for Fantasy Grounds that SmiteWorks isn't working on.

Interested parties get the necessary permissions from SmiteWorks and from any game designers whose IP, copyrights, etc., are at issue. The crowdfunding community approaches a trusted developer who is committed to working on the project. The community has a project price in mind: Perhaps the community is willing to offer the developer $5,000 to make a character sheet.

When the Patreon reaches its funding goal, the custodian hires the developer to work as a freelancer. The freelance developer builds the character sheet, ruleset, or whatever the community wants to have done.

[damned]

A developer did a crowdfunding exercise for a ruleset wizard and got 57 backers only.
The project needed 300 to be viable.

Roll20 advertises over 1 million users.
Game systems outside the top 25 or so games average less than 200 games in a quarter, outside the top 35 or so are under 100 games.

[Valyar]

We should not compare Roll20 and FG, because there is nothing to compare in this regards. Roll20 provides you with ... nothing. They didn't enhance their service since years and the "Charactermancer" or whatever the name is, is not that good. Yes, you have dynamic lighting and for ridiculous amount of 10 USD per month - access to the buzzword "API". The fancy they pretend it is, you are on the mercy of the JavaScript and the community. Their whole "environment" is run by the community and quite frankly, one of the reasons I stopped using this platform. I reported a bug that I can fix on my own in their javascript code and for more than an year nobody did a ****. Sorry, this is ridiculous.

Fantasy Grounds on the other hand, did something right - they made a framework. Amazing framework, but... still only a framework. Without proper tools for it to be used by non-technical people, it is just another niche thing with the full power of the framework accessible for few. If we get GUI and easy to use tools to develop ruleset/module/theme/skin and better documentation I am absolutely sure that the library will explode from rulesets and FG will get even more people using it. For example - the map editor of StarCraft. No need to say more, I hope.

I know my way around code and the only learning curve for me was how the hell the XML is organized and to learn the specific LUA programming specifics, as it is different than the scripting/programming languages I am versed with. I don't want to have second job at programming, I prefer having second job doing nice stuffs in FG for the hobby I like, with tools that are making my life easier. I can compare it to an open-source project, but the people who can fork or continue the project (when the owner no longer has interest to keep doing it) are significantly fewer.

In short - give us the tools and we will do the rest. :)

PS: MoreCore is fantastic. Must be in the Core.

[L. R. Ballard]

A developer did a crowdfunding exercise for a ruleset wizard and got 57 backers only.
The project needed 300 to be viable.

Roll20 advertises over 1 million users.
Game systems outside the top 25 or so games average less than 200 games in a quarter, outside the top 35 or so are under 100 games.

Thanks for that.

Those 57 people weren’t committed to paying the real-world price to get something done.

Here’s an example of how it could’ve worked. I backed MapForge at $98. If 56 other people had supported the crowdfunding campaign quoted above, 57 people would’ve raised $5,586. At a project price of $5,000, the project gets done.

But I take your points:

1. Some of the games that people want support for simply don’t have enough players to get the response needed to fund a project.

2. It’s unreasonable to think that SmiteWorks can dedicate labor to a project that won’t get a return on investment (ROI).

[Valyar]

Most of the time it is lack of proper marketing, not that there are no people. Nowadays, with the saturation of our senses to a level that makes us shut down, lack of good way to promote your product or create a need is fundamental to the success. Many companies have awesome products, but fall behind the marketing and lose. And we get Roll20.

[Trenloe]

Crowdfunding to create a ruleset by the community, not controlled by SmiteWork? I would be very, very, very cautious with going this route. There are many stories of rulesets being started by developers but never finished. Annoying, but no one has paid for said ruleset, so no one has lost out.

I’ve backed a number of crowd funded software over the years and I have been burned many times - product never gets out of alpha/beta, product never delivers anything like it comitted to, etc., etc.. I now usually avoid software kickstarters/crowd sourcing - they usually run out of money and under deliver. This happens again and again, whether it’s part-time or professional full-time developers.

Crowd funding a FG ruleset? How many people are going to pay $20, $30, $40 for a ruleset, sight unseen, developed by a part-time community developer? And then wait a number of months for it and hope it gets to a point that it’s decent and usable with good content...

Whereas the current royalty model is not ideal in terms of attracting developers for less than mainstream RPG systems, and keeping them interested when the going gets tough (which it does). It does provide the developer with a small level of ongoing revenue (royalties per purchase), it protects the consumer by them only paying for something that is ready to use, and it allows for official products to be released (with reference material) as the IP owners get their cut.

EDIT: and, the number of community developers I’d even slightly consider pre-paying to develop a ruleset can be counted on one hand. And they’re already working on other projects. My opinion is that this really isn’t something that trying to throw crowd source funding at is going to solve. It can sound like a solution when the small number of dedicated FG community members are kicking around "I’d easily pay XX for that!", but as the example damned mentioned (a GUI FG XML builder) - "everyone" said they wanted this, but very few backed the project, so it never happened.

[dulux-oz]

Who said (apart from speculation) that you'd get someone (good) for $5000?

A Professional coder earns circa $75/hr and up, which puts a 500 hour project at approx $37.5K - meaning at $5K you'll be over 400 hours short.

Yes, someone may step up and do it for less - as a labour of love / hobby / because they want it themselves - or you'll get a "talented amateur" or someone who doesn't have the experience & skills and who'll drop the project when it become too tough - and I hope like hell I'm wrong about that - but I'm not.

How do I know? Because I'm a professional Coder, because I've already done the Ruleset-creation job and know how long it'll take, and because its my job as a Programme Manager to find people to do this type of work and have experienced all of these consequences before.

First Rule in setting up a software project (or any project, for that matter): set realistic expectations up front.

Guys! There's a reason there is no large pile of Rulesets, Character Sheets, etc - its not because they're not wanted, its because the people who want them aren't willing to pay for what they are truly worth. The economics of the the thing makes it unviable (as others have said and implied) for all but those willing to do it as a labour of love - and for really niche games there simply isn't the people who'll be willing to cough up the dough.

Case in point: everyone (hyperbole) said on these boards that they wanted the Ruleset Wizard (check the history!) but only 57 backers? That's not just a badly run Kickstarted (if it was badly run), that's a genuine lack of interest once people have to actually put their money where their mouths are.

2nd Case in point: how often do we see on these boards people complaining about the cost of FG and FG subs, and the "fact" that Roll20 is "free"? An FG sub costs less than a cup of coffee once a month, and yet people...

Again, just my $0.02 worth - from someone who's been there and done it :)

Cheers

[celestian]

This community needs to start a Patreon run by a trustworthy member. That trustworthy member acts as a custodian over the Patreon's funds.

The goal of the Patreon is to crowdfund things for Fantasy Grounds that SmiteWorks isn't working on.

Interested parties get the necessary permissions from SmiteWorks and from any game designers whose IP, copyrights, etc., are at issue.

A big blocker for this would be license. I only know this because one of the rulesets I'd love to work on is still hoping for that to happen.

Generating tools for people to create character sheets, rulesets, ref-manuals and the like would probably be easier to utilize as it would then by-pass the need for license (users just make their own).

That said, I'm sure most would still love to just buy everything they need for their "version" of the RPG they want pre-made.

[L. R. Ballard]

Most of the time it is lack of proper marketing, not that there are no people.

That’s true. Lack of proper marketing prevents products and services from selling. I doubt that empirical evidence would bear out the claim that that's the case "most of the time."

I don’t know if Valyar were responding directly to my post. But, in Damned’s example, fifty-seven people are “some people” rather than “no people.”

However, neither I nor Damned claimed that no people are interested in supporting crowdfunded projects. Damned offered that 57 people weren’t enough people to fund a specific project, and I agree that 57 is a small number to support the kind of work hypothesized.

Would proper marketing generate enough interest? Business-to-business copywriters like Bob Bly and Steve Slaunwhite will tell you that it depends on the number of qualified prospects you have—“qualified prospects” being people who may be interested in buying your product or service. If you’re prospecting online, it depends on whether you can even get qualified prospects to your landing page, let alone get someone to read the copy. How many people will actually read the copy and take the next step? An average direct response sales letter mailed out to people gets 2% response. Those are just people who are interested in learning more. The people who actually buy the product or service are even fewer.

I tend to agree with Damned that games outside the top 25 that people play on VTTs don’t have enough qualified prospects to make crowdfunding feasible.

[Segin]

We should not compare Roll20 and FG, because there is nothing to compare in this regards. Roll20 provides you with ... nothing. They didn't enhance their service since years and the "Charactermancer" or whatever the name is, is not that good. Yes, you have dynamic lighting and for ridiculous amount of 10 USD per month - access to the buzzword "API". The fancy they pretend it is, you are on the mercy of the JavaScript and the community. Their whole "environment" is run by the community and quite frankly, one of the reasons I stopped using this platform. I reported a bug that I can fix on my own in their javascript code and for more than an year nobody did a ****. Sorry, this is ridiculous.

Fantasy Grounds on the other hand, did something right - they made a framework. Amazing framework, but... still only a framework. Without proper tools for it to be used by non-technical people, it is just another niche thing with the full power of the framework accessible for few. If we get GUI and easy to use tools to develop ruleset/module/theme/skin and better documentation I am absolutely sure that the library will explode from rulesets and FG will get even more people using it. For example - the map editor of StarCraft. No need to say more, I hope.

I know my way around code and the only learning curve for me was how the hell the XML is organized and to learn the specific LUA programming specifics, as it is different than the scripting/programming languages I am versed with. I don't want to have second job at programming, I prefer having second job doing nice stuffs in FG for the hobby I like, with tools that are making my life easier. I can compare it to an open-source project, but the people who can fork or continue the project (when the owner no longer has interest to keep doing it) are significantly fewer.

In short - give us the tools and we will do the rest. :)

PS: MoreCore is fantastic. Must be in the Core.

I don't see any addressing this. This is what has made other things very popular, being accessible for the general community to contribute with a toolset (ie: the tools they need). NWN (yea, a game, not the same, but still) is an example. I am too new to know if FG has the tools in place for people to easily produce modules themselves or for the community. But from your post it seems it does not meet the goal completely at least.

*MR. Ihopeimpostinginthecorrectthreadbeforeigetjackedup *

[L. R. Ballard]

The OP stated:


I mean even if they hired 1 or 2 extra people and dedicated them to just making a functioning character/npc sheets (with the proper dice rolling) for systems it'd go a long long way.

Let me preface this next part by saying that I teach two discussion-based classes at the university. My task is to get high participation from the students. If that involves my losing a civil argument, then so be it. It helps that I also teach introduction to logic. Knowledge of logic makes it easier for me to state a good argument, which is a more instructive argument to lose than a bad one.:)

A fitting form for the OP’s argument is a disjunctive syllogism: If p, then q. / Not the case p. // Therefore q.

Let p be developing a game-specific character sheet, which the OP states would be satisfactory. Let q be using MoreCore, which Fantasy Grounds offers as an alternative.

Unfortunately, for Smiteworks to "just take the time to create fully functioning character/npc sheets with proper dice rolling for the games" would not be enough for the majority of people. They'll want customized combat trackers, customized items, spells, feats, etc., etc., etc..

Trenloe is arguing against the meaning the OP ascribes to p by claiming that “the majority of people” will reinterpret p to mean something other than the original poster states.

That may be true, but it’s a straw man of the OP’s original claim.

The OP’s strong thesis is, charitably, the development of a ruleset; his weak thesis is the development of a character sheet or NPC sheet.

Does the OP’s weak thesis—character sheet development—entail his strong thesis? Not necessarily.

To make his claim stronger, Trenloe would have to show evidence of a majority that consistently wants more than a character sheet or NPC sheet for any given system. Otherwise, one cannot be certain that he’s referring to a representative sample when reinterpreting the meaning of p.

What kind of money would it take to develop something along the lines of the opponent’s weak thesis?


I'm [sic] suspect if you came out and offered a community developer $5000 USD you would probably find someone willing to do it for you . . . but that is a reasonable amount for each system, i.e. 100 hr x 50$/hr).

Lord Entrails offers the $5,000 figure as a guess, but who does one get for $5,000? Maybe a logic professor is free.;)


Who said (apart from speculation) that you'd get someone (good) for $5000?

A Professional coder earns circa $75/hr and up, which puts a 500 hour project at approx $37.5K - meaning at $5K you'll be over 400 hours short.

For a ruleset. There’s the straw man again. According to Dulux-oz, $5,000 is a low estimate for a ruleset. Remember, though, that the OP offered a weak thesis for creating a character sheet or NPC sheet.

I grant Trenloe’s and dulux-oz’s arguments that $5,000 is not enough to hire a developer to code a ruleset for FG. It’s what we call in the United States a “lowball bid.”

But p was not proved false, simply reinterpreted. The OP follows up by reiterating the initial meaning of p:


I find myself disagreeing with you [Trenloe]! Although i have run a 5e campaign, and it was very good indeed, i find myself wishing that there was just a character sheet for [insert game here].

I introduced a possible solution as a Patreon that could fund feasible projects. A feasible project may be developing a character sheet or NPC sheet.


Crowdfunding to create a ruleset by the community, not controlled by SmiteWork? I would be very, very, very cautious with going this route.

In fairness to the OP’s argument, what Trenloe stated isn’t the OP’s argument. That notwithstanding, I agree with Trenloe’s cautious approach toward crowdfunding software program development. The wisdom of having SmiteWorks’ support on projects for its platform is also clear.

[dulux-oz]

Ah, but isn't taking only part of an argument also intellectually dishonest (in the interests of a good discussion :) )?

To elaborate: if all of my arguments were taken (and not just the line quoted) then you would see that I'm saying that $5k is a lowball-bid for a Character Sheet: using my experience that the Character Sheet was over half the hours spent on the whole Ruleset. I was also not arguing that p was false, but merely trying to set some realistic expectations around the discussion. Hoping to better define the parameters / constraints, if you like, so as to help people come up with a feasible project - if possible. (I, personally, don't believe that such a project *is* feasible, given the constraints and assumptions people seem to be working under - but I'll be happy to be proven wrong).

So, not taking a contrary position to you, @L.R., but interested in your response :)

Cheers

[Trenloe]

Crowdfunding to create a ruleset by the community, not controlled by SmiteWork? I would be very, very, very cautious with going this route.
In fairness to the OP’s argument, what Trenloe stated isn’t the OP’s argument.
In fairness to Trenloe, Trenloe was not responding to the OP's argument - as the OP did not mention crowdfunding at all. I was responding to the ongoing discussion which was beginning to mention crowdfunding.

Whereas theoretical analysis of a fixed scope discussion is interesting... You have to remember that we are not in a classroom situation here, where the questions/argument are displayed at the front of the classroom and people discuss/argue around those. Forums, by their very nature, contain discussions that evolve, segue and are not restricted to purely the scope of the original poster. Picking apart individual responses, purely with reference to the original post, 30 posts and 2 days after said original post, doesn't provide "fairness" to any of the people posting and reacting within an evolving discussion.

[LordEntrails]

I will add that I spent about 80 hours working on developing a character sheet using CoreRPG for Star Frontiers. I'm not a coder, but I do work with code (mostly Java) on a regular basis. So I'm used to reading it, understanding what exists, and modifying it (but not starting from scratch).

In that time, I did not manage to even getting a working layout on the sheet. Now, someone who has made such a sheet before would have gotten much farther than me. As has been pointed out, my estimate is certainly a low-ball. I should have made sure that was clear in my post.

That aside, another perspective or way of looking at the issues, not just from the OP, but from the arising discussion;
1) Creating a user facing app that allows for the creation of graphically custom character sheets would be a major software project (order of magnitude; ten thousand hours)
2) Enhancing a user facing app to allow for the creation of custom rule sets would be an order of (or several) magnitude more significant
3) Creating a single custom character sheet currently takes an experienced FG developer ~250 hours (?)
4) Creating a single custom rule set takes an experienced FG developer ~1000 hours (?)

So to make #1 less resource intensive than repeating #3 each time, you would have to plan on making at least 40 custom character sheets. And for #2 better than #4 that would be 100 to 1000 rule sets.

#3 & 4 have the advantage of substantially lower risk than 1 or 2. They require little in the way oversight or investment. They allow for shorter commitments of time from developers. They allow for the inclusion of new functionalities that are regularly added to FG (i.e. just look at the challenge with the new Advanced Kombat extension has keeping up with changes to FG architecture.) I will add, isn't the estimate that there are about 800 various commercial rule systems?

So, other than cost and ROI, there are significant reasons that influence any suggest decision.

I don't think anyone disagrees that it would be AWESOME if anyone could create a customer character sheet in 5 hours or a custom ruleset in 50. Unfortunately, even if current software technology is capable of such a thing, it's not (yet?) practical.

[gtw2017]

*ahem* the biggest problem with FG is the perception of a problem. Instead of writing walls of text, you could take it upon Yourself to learn walls of code and make the necessary parts you need, yourself. That's right, you. Not someone else, not a 'coder' - you - its quite within your capability to make these things if you put your mind to it. humans are amazing, when they are not butting heads in side-long discussion. Find info on moreCore, XML or whatever and teach yourself how to make the bits - or do as I used to do when i was 12 and use sequins for gold coins and blue towels for water, making do with whatever was at hand.

[Trenloe]

In general - even if there was some amazing application that would allow character sheets to be created relatively quickly, there will *always* need to be some level of coding behind the scenes - RPG systems are always finding new weird and wacky mechanics that will have to be coded for specifically.

The GUI builder mentioned before was only ever going to be something that produced the FG GUI XML with access to base FG control properties. It was never going to write anything but the most basic LUA code for you - it would give you a starting point to build the underlying code required. This was something that a lot of people missed at the time. Don't get me wrong, it would have saved a lot of time, as GUI creation and control positioning can be very time intensive. But it would still require learning and writing LUA code to get power in the FG character sheet.

But, hey guys! What is available now that gives you a lot of what you've been asking for? What gives you a customisable character sheet that allows you to get the main rolls you need to play a lot of your chosen RPG system? What is constantly evolving and building new dice mechanics based off community need? Yes - the MoreCore ruleset! Find it here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?34860-MoreCore-Ruleset

Is MoreCore perfect? No, of course not. Does it give you a character sheet that matches your favourite RPG system exactly? No. But what it does is allow you to have many different RPG dice mechanics all at the click of a button laid out in a character sheet with some control over how it looks and operates.

Being realistic - SmiteWorks are more than likely not going to do what the OP asked (employ someone to code character sheets in the base product), nor is a community controlled crowdfunding effort to do the same likely to succeed - either get the required backing or bring a few decent character sheets to light.

The main complaint of the OP regarding MoreCore (in post #3 of this thread) was that it isn't included in the base FG product (i.e. they have to download and install it), and they didn't understand the dice strings needed to make their chosen RPG system work.

Community content will more than likely never be included in the base FG product. So making the current 2 minute process to download and install MoreCore integrated into FG may not happen. Let's admit that for most people it's going to require a visit to the forum and a download, then copy/paste of the .pak file to the FG rulesets directory. Not an onerous process, but obviously something that is still a required step.

So - we move on from installation of MoreCore and look at using MoreCore. Keep in mind that this is (mostly) a one man's community effort to allow anyone to have most of the dice roll and character sheet mechanics for their RPG system of choice in Fantasy Grounds. A few people pitch in here and there.

The important bit!

Since the start of the discussion in this thread, damned has started a new thread here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?44600-Unsupported-Game-Systems-Offer This is aimed at helping GMs get started with setting up a unsupported RPG system in FG using the MoreCore ruleset. damned wants this to be a two-way street (and so he should), in return he's asking for an example PC sheet be provided (in FG character sheet export format for ease of use by others) and a brief description of how it works.

This will allow the first GM to get setup with damned's help and then allow other GMs to get a big step up the ladder towards using MoreCore for that RPG system in future.

This is an amazing offer from damned - thanks mate! (I'd give you more rep, but I've already given you some recently).

Let's all get behind this! Expend our energy in developing community PC sheet content (and maybe NPC sheets too) for the unsupported RPG systems that can be played with MoreCore. This doesn't require you to learn FG XML or LUA, just a small amount of time to understand how to apply the MoreCore dice strings and a bit of thought on how to set this up in the MoreCore PC sheet. This will be much faster and more dynamic than waiting and hoping for something that may never happen - i.e. some official level of basic character sheets for niche RPG systems in the base FG product.

[spite]

*ahem* the biggest problem with FG is the perception of a problem. Instead of writing walls of text, you could take it upon Yourself to learn walls of code and make the necessary parts you need, yourself. That's right, you. Not someone else, not a 'coder' - you - its quite within your capability to make these things if you put your mind to it. humans are amazing, when they are not butting heads in side-long discussion. Find info on moreCore, XML or whatever and teach yourself how to make the bits - or do as I used to do when i was 12 and use sequins for gold coins and blue towels for water, making do with whatever was at hand.

This is just inflammatory at best.

There is a service, which people use because it offers capability in an area.
There is another service, which people have (on many occasions) identified the lack of that capability as a problem for it.


The answer to that is not "YOU should learn how to make the second service do what you want". That's not how consumers work.

If I go to McDonalds and they don't know how to make a Chicken burger as well as Burger King, it would not fall on me, the consumer, to go behind the counter and make a good one. I would go to the other place that serves better burgers.


It does not matter if the second service technically can deliver what the person wants, if that person does not know about it, and the service does not make it easy for them to find that out. You will just have people using the first service thinking that's the only way to get their need met. The reality is, I can look at any obscure RPG on the market and 9/10 times I can go to roll 20, and find a barely functioning Character Sheet that LOOKS like the one in the book, and works with their system. I can then start rolling dice and working the game. Let's take Strike! RPG for example. I log in to Roll20, search for Strike! and find this (https://puu.sh/AS66u/9a4717c592.png) character sheet. I can put in what I need to fields that are labelled, press buttons that are labelled to add things and I'm away.
I go to FG to do the same thing, and I get told by the community's long standing members that Strike is unsupported, but I should try MoreCore or CoreRPG. So I go to MoreCore, it sounds like it has more! I am met with this (https://puu.sh/AS6bl/a87359b2a8.jpg). To those who are looking for a VTT to meet their needs, unless it's one of the major player RPGs that gets them into FG to start with, Roll20 becomes the obvious choice.

That's where the argument for how many people want that stuff? And in Roll20 there are more people using it, so more people willing to put in the free time/effort to make those basic HTML sheets than FG community people willing to work on XML and LUA. The average consumer doesn't care that one is much easier and faster than the other. They care that it is done. Telling them they need to learn coding will not make them buy into FG. They'll think what most people would think in that situation "eh, actually no. I'm gonna go to the guys that have this stuff done already". And they'll take considerable drops in product quality to PERCEIVE that their needs are being met.

[shadelon]

Another part of the problem is getting permission from the developers of a particular game system to even post anything. I have tried. It is not nearly as easy as you may think. I've tried directly contacting the developers of my favourite game to share the sheet and rulebook modules I made myself so everyone can use it, and they denied it, so I can only use it for personal use and that's it. What they want for me to be allowed to release them at all, is full ruleset support that can be sold on the store. And if you try contacting some other devs, I can guarantee you'll get much the same answer. And that requires programming. Luckily I have a friend who can code. He just can't get his FG install working right now since he's on Linux and it keeps crashing on him.

As for your player sheet problem. This is where the GM is supposed to create the sheet themselves, and import multiple copies of it. That's what I did with mine and works quite well. I can run my favourite system on MoreCore quite effectively actually. Damned is always available too to help you figure out how to make it work for any particular system. Just give him ALOT of information on it. Explain it to him detail by detail. Then he can help.

[L. R. Ballard]

Ah, but isn't taking only part of an argument also intellectually dishonest (in the interests of a good discussion :) )?

To elaborate: if all of my arguments were taken (and not just the line quoted) then you would see that I'm saying that $5k is a lowball-bid for a Character Sheet: using my experience that the Character Sheet was over half the hours spent on the whole Ruleset. I was also not arguing that p was false, but merely trying to set some realistic expectations around the discussion. Hoping to better define the parameters / constraints, if you like, so as to help people come up with a feasible project - if possible. (I, personally, don't believe that such a project *is* feasible, given the constraints and assumptions people seem to be working under - but I'll be happy to be proven wrong).

So, not taking a contrary position to you, @L.R., but interested in your response :)

Cheers

I appreciate the reply. I'm tempted to say that validity is a formal criterion of truth and that the assignment of a truth value to a proposition does not entail any ethical responsibility thereby. No possibility of ethical responsibility in the assignment of a truth value means no possibility of intellectual dishonesty. But I won't say that. I'm going to resist the temptation. :)

Sure, a disjunctive syllogism can be part of a larger argument. In this example, it can be part of a larger argument about why one should use MoreCore. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about using an elementary valid argument form to focus on the specific argument of a poster. Maybe the OP or his supporters would like to defend themselves against the assertion of intellectual dishonesty. But I really am feelin' strong, Peter Cetera strong.

Now, about expanding the argument's scope: I'm a university lecturer and a freelance editor for academics. I know project prices for the work that I do. I track time on projects to the hundreth of an hour. But I don't know how to begin to quote the work that computer programmers do. I simply wanted the OP and like-minded people to benefit from a consideration of their position on its terms, and it appears to me that my hypothesis, submitted on their behalf, is infeasible given your statements.

My own opinion? The problem the OP has stated isn't a big problem for Fantasy Grounds, certainly not FG's "biggest problem." If I were interested in playing a game outside the top 25, I'd probably work with damned and give MoreCore a shot.

[L. R. Ballard]

Generating tools for people to create character sheets, rulesets, ref-manuals and the like would probably be easier to utilize as it would then by-pass the need for license (users just make their own).

That has been the practice of some AAA gamemakers like Bethesda Studios. They released a set of tools for Skyrim purchasers called the "Creation Kit." The Creation Kit gives Skyrim purchasers access to developer tools. The tools allow people to make modular enhancements to almost all aspects of the game. One of the most popular mods is called Sky UI. Sky UI is a user-interface overhaul that makes it easier to find and categorize items. It's basically a "character sheet" improvement made for free by the community and available for free to the community.

Last year, I offered in the Unity thread that something like a Creation Kit would be worth considering for Fantasy Grounds after the Unity port.

[Wolfheart]

I have to agree with OP, and have always maintained the stance. I do enjoy the product, especially now that I'm actually running D&D, but I'm still patiently awaiting an overhaul of dice use and completely customizable character sheets within the UI.

[JohnD]

That has been the practice of some AAA gamemakers like Bethesda Studios. They released a set of tools for Skyrim purchasers called the "Creation Kit." The Creation Kit gives Skyrim purchasers access to developer tools. The tools allow people to make modular enhancements to almost all aspects of the game. One of the most popular mods is called Sky UI. Sky UI is a user-interface overhaul that makes it easier to find and categorize items. It's basically a "character sheet" improvement made for free by the community and available for free to the community.

Last year, I offered in the Unity thread that something like a Creation Kit would be worth considering for Fantasy Grounds after the Unity port.

There's a difference in resource availability for something like this between a "AAA" developer like Bethesda and what SmiteWorks can manage unfortunately.

[Andraax]

Yeah, Bethesda is part of ZeniMax Media with over 1,500 employees and estimated income of $120 million a year. Smiteworks is just a tad bit smaller...

[L. R. Ballard]

This may be a digression, and, if so, I apologize. Also, in the spirit of fostering a good discussion, I owe Trenloe a reply, which I have not forgotten.

Anyway, here goes . . .


There's a difference in resource availability for something like this between a "AAA" developer like Bethesda and what SmiteWorks can manage unfortunately.

I grant that. Those tools are a neat idea, but I don't expect SmiteWorks to be able to manage something of the scale of a “Creation Kit.”

Still, Unity is a AAA gaming engine. If the Unity port can open access to Unity’s interface to make extensions and do things like Zeus's Par5e utility, it may be possible for FG users to write scripts for the Unity-based Fantasy Grounds that improve its already robust features.

But it's here that the Unity port is a mystery to me. It sounds less like a coding project and more like a transliteration task, i.e., one of transcribing a text from one alphabet to another.

It’s not writing a paper on Aristotle from scratch. It’s transliterating Aristole from Greek to Latin.

I wonder if FG Unity would be complete if it were simply a matter of writing FG from the ground up to work on Unity. It’s not that: it’s transliterating the existing version into a language that Unity supports. It’s keeping everything more or less the way it is, but putting it on a AAA gaming engine’s foundation.

If that’s so, Unity should have built-in functionality for scripting. At some level of interaction, Unity even has functionality for noncoders, something with what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG) potential.

Insofar as the OP has addressed a problem with FG, the Unity port may contain within itself a solution.

[celestian]

Yeah, Bethesda is part of ZeniMax Media with over 1,500 employees and estimated income of $120 million a year. Smiteworks is just a tad bit smaller...

If you're implying it would take Bethesda level of investment (money and employees) to create a UI that allows for custom features within FG, that is a little misleading.

Give a detailed plan, a small group of competent devs should be able to manage it for much less than NWN toolset. The requirements are not nearly the same.

I suspect Doug has all the resources he can diverted towards FGU however. Carl's previous work suggests he has the talent to make a lot of this happen eventually.

[Andraax]

If you're implying it would take Bethesda level of investment (money and employees) to create a UI that allows for custom features within FG, that is a little misleading.

FG *already* is a UI that allows for custom features. It's just that the method used to customize it is not to the OP's liking.

[celestian]

FG *already* is a UI that allows for custom features. It's just that the method used to customize it is not to the OP's liking.

The running UI doesn't allow for custom features. The system does support it via lua and xml changes but ... and im hard pressed to think of a single thing within FG (in-game) that allows the ruleset or character-sheet to be customized. You can certainly add new records (race/class/etc) but there is no way to alter the UI and/or the way the ruleset functions or the character sheet view.

An example of what I mean is the ability to have a completely customized character sheet with fields needed for whatever system the DM needs. Then being able to configure how those are used (such as how to make a save, attack or skill check roll). It would certainly be a complex task but starting with a common group of bullet points to begin with wouldn't be to hard. Overtime it could be grown to support many more configurations.

Again I'll suggest Carl has some experience with this. Just go look at his older Tabletop Connect videos.

Having a UI that allows the users to do it w/o having to know LUA/XML would do nothing but help the FG community IMO.

[Andraax]

The running UI doesn't allow for custom features. The system does support it via lua and xml changes but ... and im hard pressed to think of a single thing within FG (in-game) that allows the ruleset or character-sheet to be customized. You can certainly add new records (race/class/etc) but there is no way to alter the UI and/or the way the ruleset functions or the character sheet view.

Well, it's not common, but several aspects of MoreCore can be modified "on the fly" as can the "Hero Points" extension. Like I said, however, the UI can be modified, it's just that methods currently used is not to the OP's liking (or yours, apparently).

[Valatar]

Bethesda never made any tools for users; they made the tools for their own developers to help them develop and just shared those tools with the users. Which honestly wouldn't be at all a bad idea for FG, making tools for making rulesets could save days of development time for every project and add up fast. All of my friends who're full-time developers have waxed eloquently about the necessity to build tools for simplifying various parts of their projects.

[Tielc]

We should not compare Roll20 and FG, because there is nothing to compare in this regards. Roll20 provides you with ... nothing. They didn't enhance their service since years and the "Charactermancer" or whatever the name is, is not that good. Yes, you have dynamic lighting and for ridiculous amount of 10 USD per month - access to the buzzword "API". The fancy they pretend it is, you are on the mercy of the JavaScript and the community. Their whole "environment" is run by the community and quite frankly, one of the reasons I stopped using this platform. I reported a bug that I can fix on my own in their javascript code and for more than an year nobody did a ****. Sorry, this is ridiculous.


I'm sorry, I totally disagree with this. I use both a Pro account on Roll20 and I purchased an Ultimate License and most of the 5e content within Fantasy Grounds. Both systems have their pros and cons, and a lot of what you're going to use depends on your players aptitude for working with anything technical. I have very non tech savvy people in one group I play in. I would NEVER expose them to Fantasy Grounds, I would be playing tech support the entire time instead of running a game. Likewise I also play in a group of people that like the technical coding required to play Fantasy Grounds the the benefits that provides.

When I originally saw this post, I thought it was about something completely different. In fact the reason I stick with Roll20 for my non-tech savvy group is that FG does some stuff really great, but doesn't do it all. So you expect it will do what you want, and then stuff is missing and not there, same with purchased content on FG. The very first character I tried to create was missing proficiencies provided by Races, or you have to remember to drag and drop the class from the original source when leveling, etc. to get that sources benefits. If you don't know these nuances, it can be more detrimental than it's worth. Likewise Roll20 doesn't track effects or have a party sheet for loot and xp, those are pain points there. In the end, I use whatever system is going to best benefit the group as a whole. I'm not even talking about the differences between needing to install software on macs, manage local vs online libraries, etc. I mean, I had to write an extension just to play 5e the way I wanted in FG. I also needed to download APIs to play it the way I wanted in Roll20. Those are all things I know how to manage, and again, both have pros and cons there as well.

My point is, to just fan-boy a single system and say the other offers nothing is very narrow minded. Both have their flaws, and both are continuing to improve their products. Competition is good for that reason, because without it, we wouldn't have 2 fairly good VVT options to choose from.

[Valyar]

My point is, to just fan-boy a single system and say the other offers nothing is very narrow minded. Both have their flaws, and both are continuing to improve their products. Competition is good for that reason, because without it, we wouldn't have 2 fairly good VVT options to choose from.
I used Roll20 for two years, initially free, later paying for the features. The switch to Fantasy Grounds was done after I carefully evaluated all features and capabilities. I still find FG's ability to work with maps inferior to Roll20, but the rest is just better. Especially the GM toolset. So this was not spontaneous decision and I don't have fan boy attitude. I simply find FG the better product overall. And no subscription based model as the only model .

In regards to playing tech-support with FG - Roll20 is having the same learning curve as player. I disagree with your statement as I have presented both VTTs to various groups and some prefer FG, some Roll20.

[L. R. Ballard]

In fairness to Trenloe, Trenloe was not responding to the OP's argument - as the OP did not mention crowdfunding at all. I was responding to the ongoing discussion which was beginning to mention crowdfunding.

Whereas theoretical analysis of a fixed scope discussion is interesting... You have to remember that we are not in a classroom situation here, where the questions/argument are displayed at the front of the classroom and people discuss/argue around those. Forums, by their very nature, contain discussions that evolve, segue and are not restricted to purely the scope of the original poster. Picking apart individual responses, purely with reference to the original post, 30 posts and 2 days after said original post, doesn't provide "fairness" to any of the people posting and reacting within an evolving discussion.

I weighed Trenloe’s role as a moderator when considering how to reply to his post. I am interested in converting some adventures for Fantasy Grounds and will need the support of the moderators, developers, and forum members. Encouraging rational thinking is valuable, but it has its limits in internet forums, especially when education is unrelated, in this context, to my primary objective. I prefer to be able to ask a question related to that objective and get a reasonable reply; thus far, this assembly has helped me considerably in that regard. My wish is that that continue. For that reason, I will refrain from commenting directly on the claims in Trenloe’s reply. In closing, I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite YouTubers, who concludes many of his videos with the following: “And remember, as always, have fun!”