Change My Mind: Invest in FG, need top 5e capability but also OSR/ShadowofDemonLord

[Gray Geist]

Hello everyone!

Several weeks ago I posted on multiple subreddits regarding my internal debate on whether to choose Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 at my main VTT. A majority of users there recommended Roll20 but some strong advocates for FG also came along and offered confident praise and pointed me toward the community here which was said to be very active and helpful, so here I am. I am sure this debate has come up time and time again, but here I offer you a little twist.

Let's cut to the chase: Between Fantasy Grounds and Roll20, which supports OSR/Shadow of the Demon Lord better, if at all?

An introduction that goes back in time is in order: I have been DMing a game of homebrew DND 5e for 5-6 people for over a year now. I absolutely love the versatility of the systems but what really makes it stick with me is the sheer amount of content that fans create, some of which is bad sure, but some of which is brilliant. With that said, about four months ago I began researching two other RPG systems that I absolutely love the sound of:


Lamentations of the Flame Princess

Shadow of the Demon Lord


I now own these systems and both match my DM and world style, which is very Dark Souls-esque but I have not tried either...yet. Fast forward to now and one of our beloved players is leaving to California and potentially not coming back (it's for work, and it's up to her so we shall see). Upon hearing this news two of my most tenured players (45 years experience between the two of them) were very sad as they like her very much and through some sort of miracle began suddenly open to the idea of gaming online with her to make our games work and not exclude her. Before I go on let me state that I believe there's something special about sitting around a table physically with your friends to game but I've been itching to try to play online as well and these two were the biggest roadblocks to that.

So now we get to the question above. We all know both support DND 5e quite well but what about other content they don't advertise as front page? I am aware of the power of Fantasy Grounds and have heard horror stories of Roll20 requiring you to build macros to make it automated but those may be untrue. On the other hand, I have heard that Roll20 is more open platform and some fans of LotFP and SotDL have created some sort of "mod" for it but perhaps not Fantasy Grounds?

With that said some users responded on reddit and one stated something that had me worried:

"Both can handle both of those systems fine.

For me, though, there's not even a competition between Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. Fantasy Grounds has the same problem most other VTT's have, which is that it is software that you run from your own computer. Everyone has to download, install, and connect, creating many opportunities for tech issues to pop up. The number of sessions I lost to tech supporting people's issues is unacceptable to me."

Another user responded to the above stating, "I use Fantasy Grounds a lot for online play and never had any issues and the only issues other people have is when their internet is not stable. The only technical issue one may face is to open a port on their router, some routers will automatically open it and some won't. "

So in the end it was a wash but is this true?

My mission statement for this: I want a virtual tabletop that will play DND 5e better than the other but also have the versatility or ability to play LotFP and/or SotDL if I decide to switch. I do not want to invest $200-400 (which I will be getting the top of the line content) and then have to switch. I am interested in a VTT because of the ease of use and ability to lay down exquisite (i.e. immersive) maps, monsters, etc and not worry about tracking math (for the most part) which will lend more time for me to immerse my players and myself. Furthermore, having the power & speed of a computer at my fingertips during play will be very useful as I currently use an iPad Pro at the table linked to all my files and it's fine but I'm just faster on my PC.

Are either of these major VTT’s out there useable? Perhaps only one is useable and that’s for LotFP? Or perhaps the opposite is true and SotDL is the one with the mod support?

If you need to clarify something before answering fully please feel free to ask and I will answer to the best of my ability, though keep in mind I am no knowledge/content expert for either VTT platform.

[damned]

Welcome Gray Geist

5e is supported better on this platform than any other and by a good margin.
There is no specific Shadow of the Demon Lord ruleset at this time. A little birdie tells e someone is neck deep in coding one just now but until that comes to fruition its best not to count on it being available.
In the meantime Im pretty sure that MoreCore supports all the SotDL rolls.

Im not familiar with the LotFP rules... what are the primary dice mechanics?

[LordEntrails]

Welcome :)

I don't have SotDL or LotFP experience so I won't comment on those systems. I will say that I have played games that have no dedicated rule system and have been quite happy with using one of the 'generic' (CoreRPG, MoreCore) for those games.

Let me make a few observations and point out a few things for you to consider. Some of this is what I learned when I did my comparison a couple years ago, some is what I have noticed or observed since then. I will say I have found a lot of incorrect information and poorly supported opinions out there, so make sure you are clear on what's important to you.

FG is a Client-Server architecture, Roll20 is a Software as a Service. An important implication of this to me meant that everything I create (in FG) is stored local. No one can ever take that away from me. I am not dependent upon the terms of service, availability, or financial stability of anyone but myself. Don't get me wrong, there are pro's and con's to each, but that to me was close to non-negotiable.

Cost; If this is a concern to you, look at the full price of both over your expected usage time. For me, FG is much lower cost for what I wanted to buy and for how long I plan to use it.

SmiteWorks, the company that owns and runs FG, from my observations and experience, is exceptional. Their are extremely customer focused, and continue to make major re-investments in their products with a focus on next generation VTT technology.

The community and forums here are my favorite forum anywhere. Friendly, helpful, active, and open. Want to discuss the benefits of Roll20, Maptools or any other competitor over FG? You won't be the first, and you won't provoke a flame war either (nor will you get banned, like I've heard can happen at other places). Speaking of flame wars, you won't often find them here. I can think of 2 in the years I've been here, and both were one-sided by a single person and very short lived.

I've noticed quite a few dedicated GMs switch from Roll20 to FG. But haven't heard of any going the other way. Maybe that's the circles I run in (though I think those are pretty wide).

Networking can be an issue with a client-server architecture. If you ask for help in anyway except the most obnoxious way, there are many network gurus here who will step up to help you out. And, if you are someone not able to find an acceptable solution, did I say how customer focused SmiteWorks is? 30 day money back guarantee. So, even if you go buy the ultimate license (which is on sale for another day or two) and the complete D&D bundle and can't get it to work for you, they'll refund your money. Not that I suggest you do that, you can completely test the network connectivity with the demo license, but hey, the option is there.

Someone who plays one SotDL or LotFP will probably drop by shortly to tell you what they think about playing those games. Any other questions, just ask.

[Ken L]

It doesn't really matter. FG is more for those with the established systems as it's tricky to host relying on 'automation ' of rule-sets that aren't available, even something as simple as a character sheet doesn't exist for many of these games.

FG has become more of an 'alternative' scene where as roll20 is more 'main stream' The difficulty curves for on-boarding new players and getting new players is on roll20's side as they have a larger player base, where as on FG you need to source multiple LFG locations to game advertise enough bodies.

In short, FG is easier for established groups who can learn the ropes of the platform, Roll20 better for herding internet cats, and receiving them. Internet cats however are very flighty. I'm not going to write some conversion essay akin the the meme here (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/steven-crowders-change-my-mind-campus-sign).

[Simpe]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

I'd like to give my point of view on your situation.

I joined the FG community fairly recently. I'm currently implementing a full ruleset in the FG engine, on top of the standard CoreRPG Ruleset. I have done a little checkup on roll20 and weighted the different pro's/con's of the different versions, out of a developer perspective. The API's are quite different and even though roll20 is in jscript and maybe a bit simpler, it's so much less powerful than what FG supports. Yes, the powerfulness of the FG api means that it is much more complex, but instead you have access to a lot of already written rulesets, plus the source to a few of them. Most of the time you will probably be satisfied with the CoreRPG or MoreCore rulesets and maybe only add a mod to one of these, if you are interested in having your custom die rolls or whatever it takes.

Now, I had some issues pretty early with understanding how to implement a ruleset so I joined the discord server that people here use. Boy what a community! I've been asking questions both here and in discord, trying to resolve issues that I encounter and the help has been massive. Most of the time several people weigh in and try to look at the issue from several angles, giving me not only a way to solve the problem but a realization about how to best do things in order to get a stable ruleset / product.

I've JUST started looking into using FG as an actual tool when i DM. I only DM in real life but the aid of using this tool in that situation as well is pure awesomeness. If you just learn the formatted-text implementation that you use for taking notes etc, you'll quickly be able to make a really comprehensive way of taking notes and tracking all the information you need about your players. Just like previously pointed out here, I've already noticed the activeness of the developers and these are people that really love what they're doing - and they're constantly updating and adding both content and features into the engine.

Cheers,
Simon

[mrrockitt]

I'm afraid I also can't comment on whether the systems you wish to run are supported on one or the other but as a convert from Roll20 myself only a month ago I can honestly say there is no way I would switch back to it now. I don't hate Roll20, it's a great system and good luck to them but it's FG all the way for me.

I will immediately say that I am no expert, (as you will quickly realise), but the way that FG automates rolls and abilities for you is so much better than making all the macro's by hand in Roll20! I also much prefer the look of the interface and the control it allows you over games. When creating content as a DM I find FG so much more stable than Roll20, that might have just been my internet connection but the server-client set up means you don't have to worry about that whilst setting up.

As to the cost, the fact that Roll20 is available for *free* makes everyone say how expensive FG is. This is not true however in my experience, if you want to buy official D&D books/modules/campaigns they are more expensive on Roll20. Also if you want much storage space and the few tools Roll20 offers you will almost certainly need to upgrade to the two paid options. Again, the server-client option means the content you can store and present to your players is limited only by the size of your hard drive!

It is true that FG is more complicated for beginners but once you get the hang of it it's a much better system I think.

I also have found the community to be helpful and Smiteworks Support are great too. Not to say the Roll20 guys were not, but FG just edge it in this category for me :)

[damned]

MoreCore was designed to allow people to play other games that dont have a specific ruleset. It has 50 or 60 rolls and fairly flexible character sheets and combat tracker. Its free. Ive played a bunch of different game systems using MoreCore.

[ddavison]

Welcome Gray Geist.

We don't have an official ruleset for Shadow of the Demon Lord but we have an agreement with place with the owner of the IP to allow for it if we can get it developed. Official rulesets are noticeably more robust and easier to run a full campaign in than a community ruleset. With that said, the generic ruleset CoreRPG that is included with FG will allow you to support the basic needs and still use most of the common features of a ruleset. Damned took this one step further by creating the MoreCORE ruleset and it enhances and makes it even easier to support otherwise unsupported systems without doing any coding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8M48Pqb0BM

We offer a full 30-day money back guarantee on all purchases and subscriptions from our store, so you could dive right in with a 1 month sub and/or any add-ons that struck your fancy to run it through the paces. After an evening or two of playing around with it, you'll probably have a good idea if it is going to be a good fit for your needs.

[Ram Tyr]

I've played LotFP on FG in one or two sessions. I believe the DM used the Morecore ruleset... I recall it supporting the game just fine.

[JohnD]

In my experience most of what you get on the internet in support of Roll20 contains a lot of deliberate misinformation or uninformed information about FG. A couple of videos that might be worth your time:

https://youtu.be/1gHmxi4EydE

https://youtu.be/qb-d3Zcznj4

Hopefully those work, I'm on a tablet right now with a less than ideal interface.

I've used FG for over 6 years. The rulesets I've used are listed in my signature. It is not terribly difficult to learn; just don't expect to know everything all at once. As with any powerful software program (not some browser app...) there is a learning curve - embrace it. Everything you make inmonth one you will be able to use in year 6 (I'm doing it now in fact...) so your work is never wasted.

Prep Less Play More

That's a good slogan and it's accurate.

If you want a demo of anything, let me know I'm happy to spend a couple of hours walking you through stuff.

[mrrockitt]

Both work fine for me :)

That first video is what lured me away from Roll20!

[Gray Geist]

Thanks for the replies and welcomes everyone...wow they weren't kidding when they said this community was helpful and active huh? Impressive stuff. I'm going to try and reply to some posts that ask me direct questions and others where I may have questions of my own. I may not reply to everyone as I may have gleaned some great info but have no questions back but just know I've read and appreciate every post.



Welcome Gray Geist

5e is supported better on this platform than any other and by a good margin.
There is no specific Shadow of the Demon Lord ruleset at this time. A little birdie tells e someone is neck deep in coding one just now but until that comes to fruition its best not to count on it being available.
In the meantime Im pretty sure that MoreCore supports all the SotDL rolls.

Im not familiar with the LotFP rules... what are the primary dice mechanics?

LotFP is an OSR format game and to be quite honest, I've never played it yet, but it uses d20 as the main dice as well as a great use of d6 from what I can tell.


Welcome :)

I don't have SotDL or LotFP experience so I won't comment on those systems. I will say that I have played games that have no dedicated rule system and have been quite happy with using one of the 'generic' (CoreRPG, MoreCore) for those games.

Your entire response is great to hear and especially the part about the customer service and above, I've heard some sprinkles about the MoreCore set and it seems interesting.


It doesn't really matter. FG is more for those with the established systems as it's tricky to host relying on 'automation ' of rule-sets that aren't available, even something as simple as a character sheet doesn't exist for many of these games.



I like this reply a lot and I get what you're putting down. I'd hope to manage through the difficulty curve for sure but my question is regarding the "It doesn't really matter." What doesn't matter? I get the established systems piece but SotDL and OSR (Lamentations) use highly established systems so are you essentially saying that is doesn't matter because they are established and therefore I don't have much to worry about (can use MoreCore, etc)? Or established systems as in, they have to be established on FG?



Welcome Gray Geist.

We don't have an official ruleset for Shadow of the Demon Lord but we have an agreement with place with the owner of the IP to allow for it if we can get it developed. Official rulesets are noticeably more robust and easier to run a full campaign in than a community ruleset. With that said, the generic ruleset CoreRPG that is included with FG will allow you to support the basic needs and still use most of the common features of a ruleset. Damned took this one step further by creating the MoreCORE ruleset and it enhances and makes it even easier to support otherwise unsupported systems without doing any coding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8M48Pqb0BM

We offer a full 30-day money back guarantee on all purchases and subscriptions from our store, so you could dive right in with a 1 month sub and/or any add-ons that struck your fancy to run it through the paces. After an evening or two of playing around with it, you'll probably have a good idea if it is going to be a good fit for your needs.

Thanks ddavison! I see, so when you say "if we get it developed" who is that down to? Is that decision up to the official devs and pulled from a list of games the devs see as most profitable to develop? Just curious! I've heard that SotDL is being developed for FG but I'm not sure if there's a different between official and modders or if both sort of work in tandem where a modder could make a ruleset and then the devs of FG pick it up and run with it?

Does the MoreCORE ruleset cost extra money?

Also I'll be unable to test the two "unknowns" because I don't know how to test anything but 5e as that's all I've DM'd thus far and all I will DM in the near future (4 months or more perhaps). If I was experienced in SotDL or LotFP I'd be able to confidently say "Oh absolutely, I'll take on FG and test out OSR ruleset (LotFP) and SotDL on the MoreCORE ruleset and kick it's tires!" But currently I can't, does that kind of explain why I'm digging in more on those than 5e? I absolutely know FG kills it for 5e so I'm excited about that for sure.


I've played LotFP on FG in one or two sessions. I believe the DM used the Morecore ruleset... I recall it supporting the game just fine.

Oh really? Do you remember details on that though? Was the DM playing OSR (LotFP) style games for years and new how to finagle so perhaps it appeared as though it was supported easily or did he/she actually comment on how surprised he was that the MoreCORE set was highly effective? Just curious, either way good to hear and I'll take your word and everyone's word for it!


In my experience most of what you get on the internet in support of Roll20 contains a lot of deliberate misinformation or uninformed information about FG. A couple of videos that might be worth your time:

https://youtu.be/1gHmxi4EydE

https://youtu.be/qb-d3Zcznj4

Hopefully those work, I'm on a tablet right now with a less than ideal interface.

I've used FG for over 6 years. The rulesets I've used are listed in my signature. It is not terribly difficult to learn; just don't expect to know everything all at once. As with any powerful software program (not some browser app...) there is a learning curve - embrace it. Everything you make inmonth one you will be able to use in year 6 (I'm doing it now in fact...) so your work is never wasted.

Prep Less Play More

That's a good slogan and it's accurate.

If you want a demo of anything, let me know I'm happy to spend a couple of hours walking you through stuff.

I see, those are some very good points and your confidence (as well as others above) in FG is really inspiring to be honest. By Rulesets you've used do you precisely mean "GM'd" or played in or both? Just curious. Have you heard anything about OSR, specifically Lamentations and/or Shadows of the Demon Lord? 6 years is a darn long time to use a program and I'm glad to hear from so many fans of the program here that they've been around such a long time.

I really appreciate the demo offer, I may take you up on that. After I receive more feedback and can ruminate on this more I will contact you for sure - again, thank you!


Both work fine for me :)

That first video is what lured me away from Roll20!

What first video? The one about the costs of each program? I've seen that one, I agree it kind of floored me too!

[ddavison]

For Shadow of the Demon Lord, we have an agreement in place with Schwalb Entertainment to do an official ruleset with all the bells and whistles. There are a few community attempts at it in the past -- mostly through MoreCORE, I think. For an official commercial ruleset, we set a fairly high standard. Those cost money (normally the equivalent of the PDF for the game) and we expect that the user will get great value out of the system. Because we are a small team, we have to bring in developers from our community who have coding and graphics expertise. We *think* we have a resource for this now, but we hate to promise anything because there have been cases in the past where someone is well-intentioned but unable to complete the work for some reason. We don't have the bandwidth to complete it internally. We offer some assistance in the form of QA, access to raw files from the publisher and access to source code from any of our previously released rulesets. The latter is typically available to any user already. We allow new ruleset developers the ability to reuse any of our code from other rulesets. Our community devs typically get a 15% commission for building a new ruleset and maintaining it.

[Trenloe]

Welcome to the forums Gray Geist

One of the decisions you will have to make is how much automation you want, and how much automation you need, to be able to game in FG. A few people demand 80/90% automation and won't play a system unless they have that. Which is cool - it's their money, time and gaming requirements. Many people just want to play and have the main VTT options available to them - sharing of maps/images, story entries, language functionality, basic character sheet data, basic NPC data, common rolls, etc., etc.. Stuff that allows you to play, but you still need to know the rules and apply a lot of things manually - just like you would playing face-to-face around a real table.

CoreRPG and MoreCore (I'd recommend MoreCore as the dice rolls are more supported and the MoreCore tab on the character sheet gives more flexibility) allow you to do the latter - play the game with basic info, sheets and rolls available to you.

Here are some examples of what people have done with MoreCore:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?35056-MoreCore-Themes

Here's an example of what I've done for The Dark Eye in MoreCore: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42264-The-Dark-Eye-Rules-Set&p=384185&viewfull=1#post384185

And here are examples of character sheets GMs have put together using the CoreRPG ruleset: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23138-Share-Game-System-Character-Sheets

Sure, there will be little things that CoreRPG or MoreCore won't be able to do - but they should be able to do the majority of things needed to get you playing. As long as you don't expect lots of automation, you'll be able to play most games. If not, a friendly dev (usually damned) may help get the main rolls/data you need coded up for you to use.

So, back to my original question: "how much automation [do] you want, and how much automation [do] you need?" If you ask me this, I say I want a good level of automation to make things slick and easy to play. Do I need all of this to be able to play fun games with my friends and people I've met over the Internet using Fantasy Grounds? No, not at all, and I frequently play just such games and have a great time - FG still provides a lot of cool VTT features that are RPG system agnostic - add to this some PC/NPC sheets in MoreCore and you'll be good to go...

[JohnD]

The first video I linked does indeed show, that if 5e is your ruleset, FG is truly cheaper than "free". The "it's free it's free it's damn free" rallying cry really gets the people who aren't willing to do exactly what you're doing now though; put in a little time researching your product purchase ahead of time.

OSR type games are pretty well all I play now. Castles and Crusades is my #1 presently and likely for the future. It gives me almost everything I want and is an absolute value steal at the current price. Seriously... $10 for the ruleset, PHB and M&T... huge bargain.

I've DMed all the rulesets listed in my signature and created game content for them. I've played in Pathfinder, C&C and Rolemaster games as a player. FG handles Rolemaster the best I've ever seen that ruleset handled... in fact seeing that was what led to me choosing FG over that browser app you're also considering.

As a disclaimer, I have invested heavily in my FG experience; I own a lot of what is currently known as DLC even for rulesets I no longer play. The 5e bundle is at first glance pricy, but look what you get for your money and what it could cost you over at the "free" place.

One other consideration for you possibly. FG has all those rulesets on the front landing page licensed. Your alternative web based app, not so much. If supporting the people that make your favourite games is important to you, then buying a FG product sends some $ their way. That has a lot of value to me personally.

Anyways, drop me a PM if you want a quick tour. During the summer I'm generally only available late nights after 9 pm central.

[Andraax]

LotFP is an OSR format game and to be quite honest, I've never played it yet, but it uses d20 as the main dice as well as a great use of d6 from what I can tell.

I just read a review of LotFP on rpg.net which included some info about it's mechanics. Sounds very similar to Castles and Crusades - I'd bet you would be able to play it pretty well using that ruleset. If not, there are a couple other OSR rulesets, plus the generic ones previously mentioned.

[LordEntrails]

Does the MoreCORE ruleset cost extra money?
No. MoreCore is free and can be downloaded from the forums here.

As mentioned, it is developed and maintained by damned. And though he's not a SmiteWorks employee, he is one of the senior community devs and I believe he does contract/commission work for SW when his schedule allows. So, yea, it's a professional quality ruleset for free :) (Oh, and he is very active maintaining and adding to it).

[Gray Geist]

For Shadow of the Demon Lord, we have an agreement in place with Schwalb Entertainment to do an official ruleset with all the bells and whistles. There are a few community attempts at it in the past -- mostly through MoreCORE, I think. For an official commercial ruleset, we set a fairly high standard. Those cost money (normally the equivalent of the PDF for the game) and we expect that the user will get great value out of the system. Because we are a small team, we have to bring in developers from our community who have coding and graphics expertise. We *think* we have a resource for this now, but we hate to promise anything because there have been cases in the past where someone is well-intentioned but unable to complete the work for some reason. We don't have the bandwidth to complete it internally. We offer some assistance in the form of QA, access to raw files from the publisher and access to source code from any of our previously released rulesets. The latter is typically available to any user already. We allow new ruleset developers the ability to reuse any of our code from other rulesets. Our community devs typically get a 15% commission for building a new ruleset and maintaining it.

That is awesome, it sounds like Schwalb placed the official place of the ruleset in good hands. The fact that your team is so open about the way things work is also very enlightening. With that said I'm surprised if you don't have the bandwidth to get it done internally that anything gets done at all! I mean that in a good way, you must have some seriously hard team members and community members pouring their hearts out into the officially done rule sets. I'll keep this all in mind, thank you!


Welcome to the forums Gray Geist

One of the decisions you will have to make is how much automation you want, and how much automation you need, to be able to game in FG. A few people demand 80/90% automation and won't play a system unless they have that. Which is cool - it's their money, time and gaming requirements. Many people just want to play and have the main VTT options available to them - sharing of maps/images, story entries, language functionality, basic character sheet data, basic NPC data, common rolls, etc., etc.. Stuff that allows you to play, but you still need to know the rules and apply a lot of things manually - just like you would playing face-to-face around a real table.


Hmmm well I would obviously prefer full automation or near to you, like you said ...80/90% would be absolutely amazing because as JohnD said "Prep Less, Play More" is the slogan. With that said I am becoming more aware of what I'd be walking in with if I were to run a SotDL or LotFP on Fantasy Grounds.

But I do have a question regarding what you said about automation:


Welcome to the forums Gray Geist

Sure, there will be little things that CoreRPG or MoreCore won't be able to do - but they should be able to do the majority of things needed to get you playing. As long as you don't expect lots of automation, you'll be able to play most games. If not, a friendly dev (usually damned) may help get the main rolls/data you need coded up for you to use.

So, back to my original question: "how much automation [do] you want, and how much automation [do] you need?" If you ask me this, I say I want a good level of automation to make things slick and easy to play. Do I need all of this to be able to play fun games with my friends and people I've met over the Internet using Fantasy Grounds? No, not at all, and I frequently play just such games and have a great time - FG still provides a lot of cool VTT features that are RPG system agnostic - add to this some PC/NPC sheets in MoreCore and you'll be good to go...

Because of how open you've been about the levels of automation and how open everyone has been about MoreCORE and the strengths of OSR and SotDL content in it I am aware I won't get 80/90% automation but would you say that would be somewhere near 20%? I know we're just talking "made up" numbers here but that level of automation isn't very good right? 1 out of 5 things being automated is kind of rough. But in the end you do touch upon damned (who has already been very helpful in this conversation) being open to helping and I already feel quite confident that this community would be open to helping and even at that it kind of sounds like OSR and SotDL have working community rule sets. (Which JohnD touches upon below)


OSR type games are pretty well all I play now. Castles and Crusades is my #1 presently and likely for the future. It gives me almost everything I want and is an absolute value steal at the current price. Seriously... $10 for the ruleset, PHB and M&T... huge bargain.

That is great to hear that you play primarily OSR games via FG. So I assume you use MoreCORE for the OSR content including Castles and Crusades? And damn..$10 is a steal, I agree with that!


As a disclaimer, I have invested heavily in my FG experience; I own a lot of what is currently known as DLC even for rulesets I no longer play. The 5e bundle is at first glance pricy, but look what you get for your money and what it could cost you over at the "free" place.

What advantages does this give to you that leads you to name it as a disclaimer? Just curious, again totally new to the scene and FG.


I just read a review of LotFP on rpg.net which included some info about it's mechanics. Sounds very similar to Castles and Crusades - I'd bet you would be able to play it pretty well using that ruleset. If not, there are a couple other OSR rulesets, plus the generic ones previously mentioned.

This is great to hear Andraax, it supports what JohnD was saying too. I'm curious as to why if Castles and Crusades exists there isn't a LotFP rulset...it's up there in popularity for OSR. Let's just say it didn't exist right? And I wanted to take Castles and Crusades and sort of edit it to make it all work, is that what the community is talking about when they say someone like damned would help?


No. MoreCore is free and can be downloaded from the forums here.

As mentioned, it is developed and maintained by damned. And though he's not a SmiteWorks employee, he is one of the senior community devs and I believe he does contract/commission work for SW when his schedule allows. So, yea, it's a professional quality ruleset for free :) (Oh, and he is very active maintaining and adding to it).

That is awesome to hear. Thank you! I am super excited about trying this system out! I primarily play 5e now so all of these questions are "for the future" and I really appreciate you all being so patient, open and informational!

[LordEntrails]

That is great to hear that you play primarily OSR games via FG. So I assume you use MoreCORE for the OSR content including Castles and Crusades? And damn..$10 is a steal, I agree with that!
C&C has it's own ruleset. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=DGA045


This is great to hear Andraax, it supports what JohnD was saying too. I'm curious as to why if Castles and Crusades exists there isn't a LotFP rulset...it's up there in popularity for OSR. Let's just say it didn't exist right? And I wanted to take Castles and Crusades and sort of edit it to make it all work, is that what the community is talking about when they say someone like damned would help?
Some games get rulesets and other don't because of the interest or love for the game of various community developers. Many of the rulesets, even the official ones, are done by community devs who have a love for that system, not for financial gains. So the systems that have someone willing to out in the time get systems :)

Because C&C is a commercial ruleset, I think you could use it as a base and layer your ruleset over the top of it, but you would still have to require your ruleset (if you distributed it) to require the C&C ruleset. I believe this is how one of the devs did their AD&D/OD&D ruleset. Their ruleset is free, but it requires the C&C ruleset to be purchased by the GM.

[Trenloe]

Because of how open you've been about the levels of automation and how open everyone has been about MoreCORE and the strengths of OSR and SotDL content in it I am aware I won't get 80/90% automation but would you say that would be somewhere near 20%? I know we're just talking "made up" numbers here but that level of automation isn't very good right? 1 out of 5 things being automated is kind of rough. But in the end you do touch upon damned (who has already been very helpful in this conversation) being open to helping and I already feel quite confident that this community would be open to helping and even at that it kind of sounds like OSR and SotDL have working community rule sets. (Which JohnD touches upon below)
The numbers game is interesting. 20% automation (i.e. covering 20% of the rules) can cover 80% of the mechanics used within an average gaming session. This can be achieved usually pretty easily - get the main rolls covered, damage and health tracking and you've got the basics to let you play and cover off a lot of the events that require automation within a gaming session. Beyond that it can be a case of diminishing returns - working to increase automation from 20% to 30% might result in an increase of in-game time impact of 80% to 82% - just numbers used for example.

Just having the base rolls setup leads to a good gaming experience. The GM says "make a XYZ roll" and the player has that setup on their MoreCore character sheet - they apply whatever modifiers are needed (MoreCore has SotDL boon/bane dice implemented) and then click the roll button. FG rolls the dice and displays the result. Having the main rolls setup on the character sheet will cover the vast majority of actions a player will roll for in the game. You can then setup common modifiers in the Modifier window, or apply them manually through the Modifier Stack - or just roll and tell the GM what the result is based of all the modifiers that will be applied - just like you would at a gaming table.



That is great to hear that you play primarily OSR games via FG. So I assume you use MoreCORE for the OSR content including Castles and Crusades? And damn..$10 is a steal, I agree with that!
Castles and Crusades is it's own ruleset - product info here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=DGA045

Plus it has lots of converted official content too: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/?sys=5&pub=-1&typ=-1&search=&sort=1



This is great to hear Andraax, it supports what JohnD was saying too. I'm curious as to why if Castles and Crusades exists there isn't a LotFP rulset...it's up there in popularity for OSR.
Primary reason - there isn't an official agreement between LotFP and SmiteWorks. Without an official agreement you're left with community (not for sale, OGL/Cc only) products which usually are done to allow the game to be played with low levels of automation and you usually find that the community developer moves on when they stop playing or have other projects that interest them more. Official products have more impetus to get them fully developed and maintained. Although, it must be made clear, niche rulesets like this will never make you any money - if you get more than a couple of $$ an hour return you'll be very lucky.

[Trenloe]

Because C&C is a commercial ruleset, I think you could use it as a base and layer your ruleset over the top of it, but you would still have to require your ruleset (if you distributed it) to require the C&C ruleset. I believe this is how one of the devs did their AD&D/OD&D ruleset. Their ruleset is free, but it requires the C&C ruleset to be purchased by the GM.
Yep. See here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36009-AD-amp-D-Ruleset

[damned]

The SotDL extension I posted in that thread linked to by Trenloe is very old and is really just a visual theme. I think it might need some work since MoreCore was tweaked (by Trenloe) to allow for horizontally expanding character sheets.
If I get some time this weekend Ill update it and Ill have a chat with Simpe about creating a sample/export character sheet.

[ShotGun Jolly]

Just to add my support of Damned's work..

MoreCore for the win!

Any Game, any time, hands down the best multi system ruleset out there.. best!

[sim181]

I use both Roll20 and Fantasy grounds. My opinion is that if you are doing a game that needs a special character sheet or a non-mainstream game such as Pendragon, ASOIAF, Warhammer 40k etc.. and do not want to learn how to code these rulesets or character sheets roll20 is the way to go. If you already own pdf's of everything you want to play on a VTT and don't want to buy it again you are also better with roll20.

However if you are playing 5e, CoC, CaC etc.. and don't have the content or don't mind buying the content again Fantasy grounds is the way to go.

[Gray Geist]

The numbers game is interesting. 20% automation (i.e. covering 20% of the rules) can cover 80% of the mechanics used within an average gaming session. This can be achieved usually pretty easily - get the main rolls covered, damage and health tracking and you've got the basics to let you play and cover off a lot of the events that require automation within a gaming session. Beyond that it can be a case of diminishing returns - working to increase automation from 20% to 30% might result in an increase of in-game time impact of 80% to 82% - just numbers used for example.

This is a very good point actually!


Castles and Crusades is it's own ruleset - product info here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=DGA045

Plus it has lots of converted official content too: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/?sys=5&pub=-1&typ=-1&search=&sort=1

I see that there's a LOT of content for C&C and that's awesome but also that's a LOT of money right? I mean if one were to go nuts and buy all of it (me, cough) but this brings up an important few questions!

1. Is there free content here for like tokens, maps, etc? I know Roll20 has some cool features I saw on my quick glance where it sort of pulls from the internet and allows you to upload your own content for tokens and auto scales them, etc.

2. Does FG allow the uploading or "installing" (since it's on your PC) of homebrew content (tokens, maps) without significant coding?



Primary reason - there isn't an official agreement between LotFP and SmiteWorks. Without an official agreement you're left with community (not for sale, OGL/Cc only) products which usually are done to allow the game to be played with low levels of automation and you usually find that the community developer moves on when they stop playing or have other projects that interest them more. Official products have more impetus to get them fully developed and maintained. Although, it must be made clear, niche rulesets like this will never make you any money - if you get more than a couple of $$ an hour return you'll be very lucky.

I see, is that because the community has to reach out to the creators of LotFP and hasn't? Or the devs? Or because they simply want no part in FG?



I believe this is how one of the devs did their AD&D/OD&D ruleset. Their ruleset is free, but it requires the C&C ruleset to be purchased by the GM.

Yes Trenloe came and linked it and I went and asked the creator some questions about LotFP conversion or use. Thanks!


The SotDL extension I posted in that thread linked to by Trenloe is very old and is really just a visual theme. I think it might need some work since MoreCore was tweaked (by Trenloe) to allow for horizontally expanding character sheets.
If I get some time this weekend Ill update it and Ill have a chat with Simpe about creating a sample/export character sheet.

Ah I see! Ok I'll "beware" of it then until there's an update!

My last question that I can think of is, I noticed that there's a Steam and Windows PC version of FG - is there any real difference in using either/or? I'd assume the Windows version would be better as it doesn't have to work with or through the Steam client but I could be wrong.


P.S. Suddenly my browser/computer wants to use this stupid vBulletin for the forums and I have no ability to utilize Control+B and such to create bold or use commands and all commands for text have disappeared into this "vanilla" vBulletin thing - very random. Am I going crazy?

[JohnD]

The nice thing about C&C is you legitimately get everything you need to run games with your $10 ruleset purchase.

The Player's Handbook and the Monsters & Treasures books are included and those give a complete base from which to branch out as you see fit.

Edit: Your tokens go in the Tokens/Host folder. Your maps, handouts etc... go in the Images folder within the campaign you create to make or run your game. Dead simple.

[damned]

Yep $10 for CnC gives you everything you need to play.
The other stuff might be useful depending on where you go with it but as you are looking to play LotFP I dont think there is value in the others at this time for you.

Add all your own content. Tokens, maps, story, adventure.
For a long time the DLC list on FG was very short. Today it is long and getting longer AND the options for adding your own content have gotten better and better.
Win, win, win.

Steam is just a wrapper for the exact same install. No difference.

Developing a full ruleset with lots of automation is a labour of love. Building one commercially still requires you to love it. It takes a LONG time to code automation. All those things that your human mind can calculate with barely any conscious effort require lots of coding and lots of checking for exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions. Getting a licensed ruleset requires both a willing publisher and a willing (and capable) dev. Ultimately there are over 8,000 rpgs and about 70%+ of all games played are 5e/Pathfinder/3.5e/4E. The next 10 best played game systems account for around 15%+ of market share. The other 8,000 odd games are fighting it out for somewhere around (and possibly even less than) 10% of the remaining mind share, time share, table share etc. So as much as various communities might love a particular system there is often very little economic sense in building a full ruleset for them. My first ruleset has probably been run by about 3 different GMs... ever. I did it to learn and for nostalgic reasons... it was for the old Maelstrom RPG from about 1984... Those stats are very crude but they are reflected pretty closely across Fantasy Grounds stats, Roll 20 stats, and actual RPG sales.

[lostsanityreturned]

I spent 3 years in roll20 and most of that was on their premium sub. It was a good product for what it was. But when it comes to running games fantasygrounds has it beaten out in most angles.
I do keep up to date with Roll20 and use it to play numenera/the strange at the moment.

As a Platform
Fantasygrounds wins out for me, the client server structure is far more responsive than a browser tab. Especially after running a complex Roll20 campaign for a few months everything starts to get a half a second delay.
I have had a few technical hickups over the last two years of using fantasygrounds, but nothing to really speak of and honestly it was more of a user issue than program issue.

Fifth Edition D&D
Fantasygrounds again, by a mile and more. Roll20 is far more robust than it was when I first started using it. And a part of me used to love fixing the shaped sheet up and creating macros. But the automation in fantasygrounds, the organisation of the story panel and perhapse most importantly the Combat tracker and character creation. All of this is head and shoulders above Roll20.
I use fantasygrounds in person because it speeds up my book keeping that much. It is an actual tool where roll20 is something I would never use at a table as even with the advancements it has made it doesn't make anything notably easier.

Learning Curve
Roll20 if you don't want to learn anything and just use it to roll digital dice.
Fantasygrounds if you are happy learning basic things like "control clicking tokens or portraits in the combat tracker allows you to select targets, you can then fire off a fireball having it make all the relevant dexterity saves at once, roll damage straight afterwards and have it automatically apply half to those that succeed their throws"

Mapping/Drawing tools
Roll20, fantasygrounds drawing tools are awful. Heck I made custom blank paper images so that I could see the thin and aliased scratchy lines in fantasygrounds. There aren't background layer options for tokens either so populating a map can be problematic at times.
It works, but roll20 is better and offers line width and colour options. FGU should support more options, and if it doesn't I am going to kick up a fuss until it does :P

Customisation
Fantasygrounds, I was heavily invested in the shaped sheet back in the day on roll20 (even after the official 5e sheet came out). But nothing on roll20 compares to fantasyground's levels of customisation.
I mean just today I made my first extension which allows people to roll with advantage when they hold control and disadvantage when they hold alt. (mainly for DMs but it speeds things up considerably)

Cost
Fantasygrounds, the books are cheaper and being able to buy outright is great... And even if you go for the subscription here it is still cheaper.

Conclusion
I am glossing over a lot of things like how useful the story panel is, the reference guides and so on. And they are huge boons to a DM.
But ultimately I see it like this-

- Go with Roll20 if you aren't looking for more tools and merely want to use the program for some light automation and treat it like a digital tabletop extension rather than a tool. Making it do more felt like I was fighting against myself every other week.

- Go with Fantasygrounds if you are keen on how many power user options it can give a DM, or if you want to run games completely digitally without having to rely on paper or books at the table.
Also if you run a lot of combat, because even without learning much the combat tracker is just leagues above anything Roll20 has.

[Trenloe]

There aren't background layer options for tokens either so populating a map can be problematic at times.
Yep, it can be problematic.

This extension can help - it adds layers to maps/images. It has a few gotchas (detailed in posts #1 and #2), so it's not for everyone. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20231-Enhanced-Images-(layers)-for-FG-3-0-CoreRPG-(and-rulesets-based-on-CoreRPG)

[Ken L]

Mapping/Drawing tools
Roll20, fantasygrounds drawing tools are awful. Heck I made custom blank paper images so that I could see the thin and aliased scratchy lines in fantasygrounds. There aren't background layer options for tokens either so populating a map can be problematic at times.
It works, but roll20 is better and offers line width and colour options. FGU should support more options, and if it doesn't I am going to kick up a fuss until it does :P

- Go with Roll20 if you aren't looking for more tools and merely want to use the program for some light automation and treat it like a digital tabletop extension rather than a tool. Making it do more felt like I was fighting against myself every other week.

- Go with Fantasygrounds if you are keen on how many power user options it can give a DM, or if you want to run games completely digitally without having to rely on paper or books at the table.
Also if you run a lot of combat, because even without learning much the combat tracker is just leagues above anything Roll20 has.


That's pretty much it. For established systems FG has an 'automation' crown. If you don't use automation much, FG will be a pain to use, the big loss being the noted drawing tools, as well as map tokens. In roll20, I'd just throw enemies on the GM hidden layer and reveal them when my players entered the room in dynamic lighting, then box-select + add to tracker.

[Gray Geist]

Yep $10 for CnC gives you everything you need to play.
The other stuff might be useful depending on where you go with it but as you are looking to play LotFP I dont think there is value in the others at this time for you.

Got it, yeah C&C would act as the base to the AD&D community module ( https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36009-AD-amp-D-Ruleset ) right? I'm over on that forum trying to figure out how useable that module is for Lamentations.


Add all your own content. Tokens, maps, story, adventure.
For a long time the DLC list on FG was very short. Today it is long and getting longer AND the options for adding your own content have gotten better and better.
Win, win, win.

I see, so with tokens and such is there an ample community out there that makes "cool" ones and are they easy to integrate into FG? I.e. You find an awesome token but for whatever reason you want it smaller/bigger on the FG map? The DLC list expanding is awesome to hear!


I spent 3 years in roll20 and most of that was on their premium sub. It was a good product for what it was. But when it comes to running games fantasygrounds has it beaten out in most angles.
I do keep up to date with Roll20 and use it to play numenera/the strange at the moment.

As a Platform
Fantasygrounds wins out for me, the client server structure is far more responsive than a browser tab. Especially after running a complex Roll20 campaign for a few months everything starts to get a half a second delay.
I have had a few technical hickups over the last two years of using fantasygrounds, but nothing to really speak of and honestly it was more of a user issue than program issue.

Fifth Edition D&D
Fantasygrounds again, by a mile and more. Roll20 is far more robust than it was when I first started using it. And a part of me used to love fixing the shaped sheet up and creating macros. But the automation in fantasygrounds, the organisation of the story panel and perhapse most importantly the Combat tracker and character creation. All of this is head and shoulders above Roll20.
I use fantasygrounds in person because it speeds up my book keeping that much. It is an actual tool where roll20 is something I would never use at a table as even with the advancements it has made it doesn't make anything notably easier.

Learning Curve
Roll20 if you don't want to learn anything and just use it to roll digital dice.
Fantasygrounds if you are happy learning basic things like "control clicking tokens or portraits in the combat tracker allows you to select targets, you can then fire off a fireball having it make all the relevant dexterity saves at once, roll damage straight afterwards and have it automatically apply half to those that succeed their throws"

Mapping/Drawing tools
Roll20, fantasygrounds drawing tools are awful. Heck I made custom blank paper images so that I could see the thin and aliased scratchy lines in fantasygrounds. There aren't background layer options for tokens either so populating a map can be problematic at times.
It works, but roll20 is better and offers line width and colour options. FGU should support more options, and if it doesn't I am going to kick up a fuss until it does :P

Customisation
Fantasygrounds, I was heavily invested in the shaped sheet back in the day on roll20 (even after the official 5e sheet came out). But nothing on roll20 compares to fantasyground's levels of customisation.
I mean just today I made my first extension which allows people to roll with advantage when they hold control and disadvantage when they hold alt. (mainly for DMs but it speeds things up considerably)

Cost
Fantasygrounds, the books are cheaper and being able to buy outright is great... And even if you go for the subscription here it is still cheaper.

Conclusion
I am glossing over a lot of things like how useful the story panel is, the reference guides and so on. And they are huge boons to a DM.
But ultimately I see it like this-

- Go with Roll20 if you aren't looking for more tools and merely want to use the program for some light automation and treat it like a digital tabletop extension rather than a tool. Making it do more felt like I was fighting against myself every other week.

- Go with Fantasygrounds if you are keen on how many power user options it can give a DM, or if you want to run games completely digitally without having to rely on paper or books at the table.
Also if you run a lot of combat, because even without learning much the combat tracker is just leagues above anything Roll20 has.

This is all great to hear from a user and it seems fan (in ways) of roll20. Every one here has been extremely fair on roll20 and describing it and I appreciate that.

I definitely want to reduce the amount of "static" during play and that includes being able to utilize power options such as strong automation and basic cool controls like you highlighted.

Can you dive into the Mapping/Drawing Tool issues you want improved? Are you just trying to perfect the system here or is it truly a major weakness (in your opinion)?

The only thing I'm still on the wall about is the ability to use Lamentations on FG effectively but by "on the wall" I mean, I'm 100% sure FG is the right choice for 5e and also 100% sure I could use MoreCore or the AD&D community module to get to Lamentations 90% of the way and then ask for help from the community but I just worry that because of my lack of experience at all I'd be asking too much ya know?

[JohnD]

For tokens, use Token Tool, Pinterest or a Google search for pictures and make your own. It doesn't take long and then you always have something relatively unique about the appearance of your game.

[LordEntrails]

I see, so with tokens and such is there an ample community out there that makes "cool" ones and are they easy to integrate into FG? I.e. You find an awesome token but for whatever reason you want it smaller/bigger on the FG map? The DLC list expanding is awesome to hear!

Tokens are easy to add. I use TokenTool to create tokens from any image I want, then I just drop the image into the right folder and I have a token. You can create your own modules of tokens as well (there is a post with instruction son how to do this, very simple). Then you can drag the onto a PC token window or onto an NPC to have them use that token. Or you can just drag the token to the map to use as something like a spell effect etc.

Scaling, you can turn on automatic token scaling, then when you drop a PC/NPC onto the map, it will scale them to the appropriate number of squares (assuming your map has an FG grid on it) (times a percentage, defaults to 85%, but can be set by the GM). Otherwise the token will be at the same scale as the map. But, tokens can be re-scaled with the mouse wheel and scales can be locked etc.


Can you dive into the Mapping/Drawing Tool issues you want improved? Are you just trying to perfect the system here or is it truly a major weakness (in your opinion)?

Sure, Don't try to create a map in FG. It sucks *G* The in built tools are basically a free hand pen of a single pixel thickness. Controlling the color is cumbersome (it takes it from your character color that is generally set to be the die color for that character. You can draw circles, cones, and squares.

Using the community layers extension, you can place map tiles (i.e. tokens) and build a map from those tiles and then adding other tokens on the middle layer that represent trees, furniture, etc.

Another way you can do it, is simply drop in a blank or just background image of the total map size. Add an FG grid to it. Then add it to FG. Then you can open the map in your mapping/image program and update it as you want, save it and reload it in FG to see the updates/changes.

[Trenloe]

Yep, FG only has black line drawing for freehand maps. For maps look for pre-built maps in JPG image form (convert them if they’re not JPG). There are thousands upon thousands of maps out there, lots in the FG forums, and maps in product PDFs that can usually be extracted from a PDF for use in FG. Commercial FG products come with maps from the original material.

I don’t remember the last time I used a freehand drawing tool for a FG map - many years ago...

[Ken L]

This is all great to hear from a user and it seems fan (in ways) of roll20. Every one here has been extremely fair on roll20 and describing it and I appreciate that.

You're not allowed to talk about other platforms on Roll20, they delete, mute, and lock topics. It's like food in a movie theater. You're only allowed to talk about roll20 on thier board which is their right I suppose, but you're not allowed to do comparisons.

[lostsanityreturned]

This is all great to hear from a user and it seems fan (in ways) of roll20. Every one here has been extremely fair on roll20 and describing it and I appreciate that.

I definitely want to reduce the amount of "static" during play and that includes being able to utilize power options such as strong automation and basic cool controls like you highlighted.

Can you dive into the Mapping/Drawing Tool issues you want improved? Are you just trying to perfect the system here or is it truly a major weakness (in your opinion)?

The only thing I'm still on the wall about is the ability to use Lamentations on FG effectively but by "on the wall" I mean, I'm 100% sure FG is the right choice for 5e and also 100% sure I could use MoreCore or the AD&D community module to get to Lamentations 90% of the way and then ask for help from the community but I just worry that because of my lack of experience at all I'd be asking too much ya know?

The drawing tool is really bad in fg... i use it all the time because of players being players... but it is just rudimentary and ugly.
Even erasing sections is a hassle as it uses a filled lasoo...

It works, roll 20 just does it better and faster.

Ideally i want line thickness, a traditional eraser, fill tool (maybe with hatching) background layer, colors, line thickness, straight lines, curved lines, shapes. Maybe even some line styles.
All of that together would make it better than roll20 though.

I cannot speak for thr other rule sets. If they aren't automated on roll20 they are likely as easy as each other to play. If they are on roll20, see if the sheet is free and just use roll20 for that system and fg for 5e.

I cannot stress enough how good fg is for 5e once you become acclimated. It took me around a month before I had really gotten a grasp on things.
Documentation is pretty sketchy at times.

Look to the complete class effect packages to get a start on further optimising automation.

[Maasq]

Hiya

I'll jump in with a couple of points here, one of which will look like a blatant plug but I don't really intend it as such :)

1. I use Token Stamp for all my token needs... https://rolladvantage.com/tokenstamp/ - more on tokens for NPCs/monsters later in the 'plug', though.

2. Draw your maps with a dedicated program and then drag them into FG. It is one of the joys of the client-server setup - you can plop resources where you want them on your machine ahead of time, and so you can do things like mapwork at your leisure. There are many pieces of map making software, but the one I like is Dungeon Painter Studio (a few pounds/dollars from Steam). It is simple and produces maps that are eminently usable.

3. You said you did a lot of homebrew, so you'll want to look into how easy it is to get your creations into your chosen VTT. Adding one monster may not be taxing in either, but adding several can be onerous. For 5E, I have created a couple of programs (NPC Engineer and Spell Engineer; more to come in the series!) that simplify this process. There's even a filter to help import NPCs written for Roll20 :) It has to be pointed out that this is strictly Windows and 5E - if you use a Mac, you're out of luck; also, it won't help with the other systems you're exploring. If this does interest you, though, it is worth noting that you can add an image and token for each NPC and the creation of a module puts everything in the correct place for you.

Now I know this looks like a plug, but to be honest I mean it in a more general way. You'll find this community to be creative, and immensely supportive. I'm far from the only one who has created something for it, and I have benefited hugely from the knowledge of others on here and on Discord. If I can be any further help to you, don't hesitate to give me a shout on Discord!

Maasq

[LordEntrails]

Hiya

I'll jump in with a couple of points here, one of which will look like a blatant plug but I don't really intend it as such :)
...

Now I know this looks like a plug, but to be honest I mean it in a more general way. You'll find this community to be creative, and immensely supportive. I'm far from the only one who has created something for it, and I have benefited hugely from the knowledge of others on here and on Discord. If I can be any further help to you, don't hesitate to give me a shout on Discord!

Maasq
PLUG! PLUG! PLUG!

Hey, you deserve recognition for your work. And it's not something you charge for. And it does it's job, so it only makes sense that you mention it!

[madman]

I have opened the 5E ruleset like 5 times to try to get an extension to work in another ruleset. That being said Maasq has done great things here (Thank You) Ken L, Same goes for you. And Trenloe that goes for you also. This Group of people are the bomb.

Madman..

[Gray Geist]

The drawing tool is really bad in fg... i use it all the time because of players being players... but it is just rudimentary and ugly.
Even erasing sections is a hassle as it uses a filled lasoo...

It works, roll 20 just does it better and faster.

Ideally i want line thickness, a traditional eraser, fill tool (maybe with hatching) background layer, colors, line thickness, straight lines, curved lines, shapes. Maybe even some line styles.
All of that together would make it better than roll20 though.

I cannot speak for thr other rule sets. If they aren't automated on roll20 they are likely as easy as each other to play. If they are on roll20, see if the sheet is free and just use roll20 for that system and fg for 5e.

I cannot stress enough how good fg is for 5e once you become acclimated. It took me around a month before I had really gotten a grasp on things.
Documentation is pretty sketchy at times.

Look to the complete class effect packages to get a start on further optimising automation.

Ahhh I got it, well that won't be a problem - or well, it'll be a small problem ;)


Hiya

I'll jump in with a couple of points here, one of which will look like a blatant plug but I don't really intend it as such :)

1. I use Token Stamp for all my token needs... https://rolladvantage.com/tokenstamp/ - more on tokens for NPCs/monsters later in the 'plug', though.

2. Draw your maps with a dedicated program and then drag them into FG. It is one of the joys of the client-server setup - you can plop resources where you want them on your machine ahead of time, and so you can do things like mapwork at your leisure. There are many pieces of map making software, but the one I like is Dungeon Painter Studio (a few pounds/dollars from Steam). It is simple and produces maps that are eminently usable.

3. You said you did a lot of homebrew, so you'll want to look into how easy it is to get your creations into your chosen VTT. Adding one monster may not be taxing in either, but adding several can be onerous. For 5E, I have created a couple of programs (NPC Engineer and Spell Engineer; more to come in the series!) that simplify this process. There's even a filter to help import NPCs written for Roll20 :) It has to be pointed out that this is strictly Windows and 5E - if you use a Mac, you're out of luck; also, it won't help with the other systems you're exploring. If this does interest you, though, it is worth noting that you can add an image and token for each NPC and the creation of a module puts everything in the correct place for you.

Now I know this looks like a plug, but to be honest I mean it in a more general way. You'll find this community to be creative, and immensely supportive. I'm far from the only one who has created something for it, and I have benefited hugely from the knowledge of others on here and on Discord. If I can be any further help to you, don't hesitate to give me a shout on Discord!

Maasq

Thanks for the reply and info!

What is this you say :square: a way to create my homebrew monsters and import them easily in FG? No seriously - is that what you're saying because that's incredible. One of the most attractive things about 5e is the size of the community and if you have say 100 homebrews come out of them, maybe 50 are sub standard, but the other 50 are good, 10 of which are superb works so this is very cool! You have NPC/Monster and Spell engineer but what about homebrew items on FG?


I have opened the 5E ruleset like 5 times to try to get an extension to work in another ruleset. That being said Maasq has done great things here (Thank You) Ken L, Same goes for you. And Trenloe that goes for you also. This Group of people are the bomb.

Madman..

Yeah I'll tell ya right now, you guys are true salesmen and saleswomen without even trying...which is awesome. I am absolutely going to move with Fantasy Grounds which brings me to the final questions related primarily to 5e but it could possible be applied overall to community rulesets/modules...

Final Questions


When purchasing the Ultimate License, this does mean that my players need not purchase anything on their own correct? I ask because they will be splitting the price with me and I will cover add-ons/DLC at my own expense.
If the above is true, do the players just download Fantasy Grounds for free somehow and then join my game and have all the capabilities they need?
Will my players be able to save their character sheets and/or notes and all the "player stuff" on their computers or is that all stored on my computer via my Ultimate License and then pushed to them whenever we next resume the game?
In the same theme as the above question, would my players be able to work on their 5E character sheets without being connected to me?
Are there any limitations I'm not thinking of via the Ultimate License for myself or my players?


Very pumped to begin this journey! :D

[Trenloe]

Final Questions


When purchasing the Ultimate License, this does mean that my players need not purchase anything on their own correct? I ask because they will be splitting the price with me and I will cover add-ons/DLC at my own expense.
If the above is true, do the players just download Fantasy Grounds for free somehow and then join my game and have all the capabilities they need?
Will my players be able to save their character sheets and/or notes and all the "player stuff" on their computers or is that all stored on my computer via my Ultimate License and then pushed to them whenever we next resume the game?
In the same theme as the above question, would my players be able to work on their 5E character sheets without being connected to me?
Are there any limitations I'm not thinking of via the Ultimate License for myself or my players?


Very pumped to begin this journey! :D
1) Yes.
2) yes.
3) & 4) The players have a read-only copy they can access in their local cache (stored on their computer to reduce future downloads). The owning player can copy this and modify it through manage characters and so have a modified PC ready to upload when they next connect. The gotcha is that they won't have access to your DLC when they aren't connected to you.
5) The main issue is if suddenly one of the players wants to GM for a bit. They would need to get an ultimate license, or everyone other than you would need to get a standard license.


Yeah I'll tell ya right now, you guys are true salesmen and saleswomen without even trying...which is awesome.
It's interesting that the typical roll20 advocate, when asked to promote roll20 over Fantasy Grounds they usually try to put Fantasy Grounds down - with a lot of their views being inaccurate. When a FG advocate is asked to promote FG over roll20 they usually describe all of the cool things FG can do, very often what roll20 can do is hardly mentioned. There are exceptions to this, but that is my general experience. I think this speaks volumes for Fantasy Grounds - users who use it do so because they like the functionality that is there for them to use. Sure there are some things that roll20 (and other VTTs) do "better" (some of it bells-and-whistles and in-your-face graphical bling, some of it truly cool features), but in the end most users stick to FG because it has the depth of features they want/need for running good, coherent, long-running RPG campaigns.

[damned]

Your players wont need to buy anything.
Their characters will be saved on their computer and yours.
They can work on them between games but they wont have access to your books unless they are connected to your server.
The limitation to Ultimate that may not have come up is that you all need an Internet connection to at least start the game as each demo/free client does a license check on your Ultimate at connection - this can be an issue for offline lan games.

[LordEntrails]

What is this you say :square: a way to create my homebrew monsters and import them easily in FG? No seriously - is that what you're saying because that's incredible. One of the most attractive things about 5e is the size of the community and if you have say 100 homebrews come out of them, maybe 50 are sub standard, but the other 50 are good, 10 of which are superb works so this is very cool! You have NPC/Monster and Spell engineer but what about homebrew items on FG?
Yes, NPC engineer allows bulk import of monsters and creatures (i.e. NPCs). Spell Engineer does spells. There is no Item Engineer, yet. But Masaq has indicated he wants to get there.



Final Questions
When purchasing the Ultimate License, this does mean that my players need not purchase anything on their own correct? I ask because they will be splitting the price with me and I will cover add-ons/DLC at my own expense.
Correct, the Ult license allows all your players to connect to you with the free/demo. They can also, while connected, access all the content or books you share with them (though things like the DMG are not designed to be shared and are big enough they may crash their client application.


If the above is true, do the players just download Fantasy Grounds for free somehow and then join my game and have all the capabilities they need?
Exactly.


Will my players be able to save their character sheets and/or notes and all the "player stuff" on their computers or is that all stored on my computer via my Ultimate License and then pushed to them whenever we next resume the game?

In the same theme as the above question, would my players be able to work on their 5E character sheets without being connected to me?

It's all stored on your computer, but a copy of it is in the cache on their computers. But, they can not edit their characters without exporting it from the campaign. Which means they would then have to re-import it next time they join your campaign.


Are there any limitations I'm not thinking of via the Ultimate License for myself or my players?
Well, DM books like the DMG can't really be shared with the players. You can, but as mentioned, it might cause their client to crash.
You won't be able to change who DM's, because the host of the game has to have a license (ult or standard) and the host has to be the DM/GM.
The official content is encrypted, so you can't modify it in a simple way. You can make copies of all the objects (classes,races, items) and edit those and turn them into your own modules, but then they are copies or duplicates.

[lostsanityreturned]

Oh should I then mention that making your own classes, subclasses, backgrounds, items, feats, skills, magical item templates (properties that can be forged onto any mundane item) and monsters / NPCs IS SUPER EASY in fantasygrounds. And you can comfortably export them into your own little modules to keep for later :)
NPC spellcasters are especially easy to create.

Now to answer your questions.

1- The ultimate license allows anyone with a demo (free) account to log in, yup.
2- Yes, they will log into your game, download any modules they need from your server (which can take a little while the first time or after an update depending on your internet speed). But other than that they are in and playing, you can even get the demo from steam.
3- It is all saved on your side, the server side. And demo licenses cannot create or manage characters without logging in to an ultimate server, if they had standard licenses they could but only if you exported their characters for them (easy to do). Thankfully leveling a character in FG takes all of 3 minutes, literally drag and drop (even with homebrewed elements)
4- Nope, not unless you export their sheets and they have a paid license.
5- Ultimate is just standard that allows players to connect to the DM if they haven't paid for the standard edition. Nothing else is different and it doesn't allow any more or less outside of that :)

[damned]

3- It is all saved on your side, the server side. And demo licenses cannot create or manage characters without logging in to an ultimate server, if they had standard licenses they could but only if you exported their characters for them (easy to do). Thankfully leveling a character in FG takes all of 3 minutes, literally drag and drop (even with homebrewed elements)
4- Nope, not unless you export their sheets and they have a paid license.


Demo/Free licenses can manage their own characters offline - if they have the ruleset and if they have access to the modules they need.
So 5E and other included licenses plus Community Rulesets this works for. It wont work for commercial rulesets as they cant be bought on a demo license.
So a 5E character could be edited etc but only using SRD/Free/Homebrew modules or just by editing directly.

[Maasq]

What is this you say :square: a way to create my homebrew monsters and import them easily in FG? No seriously - is that what you're saying because that's incredible. One of the most attractive things about 5e is the size of the community and if you have say 100 homebrews come out of them, maybe 50 are sub standard, but the other 50 are good, 10 of which are superb works so this is very cool! You have NPC/Monster and Spell engineer but what about homebrew items on FG?
Very pumped to begin this journey! :D

Hiya. Both systems (Roll20 and FG) have ways to type in any homebrew that you may have. I never played with Roll20 for long so can't speak much about it's way of working, although it didn't match up with how my mind works. That wasn't necessarily their fault, though! My main reason for coming here was the community. I had a frustrating 10 days on R20 - I couldn't get in to a game, or even get people to answer my posts on the forum. I found a mention of FG, and within 24 hours had been greeted by several prominent members of the community and had a game sorted. That sold the system for me hands down. I may just have been unlucky on R20, so I wouldn't like to talk it down.

Anyway, back to my point. Entering items/spells/etc in FG is fine for one or two, but obviously importing a whole bestiary or grimoire this way is time consuming. I wrote the programs I have to try to simplify things. I've had decent feedback on their usability, so I'm confident you'll find them useful if you try them out. Item Engineer is probably next on my list, and there's a couple of parts to finish up on Spell Engineer. My real-life job is interfering with my programming just now, but this will be over by the end of June and I can get back to being a pasty-faced geek :)

So in summary - items can be entered in the FG interface, and by asking about it you've given me a spur to create Item Engineer over the summer.

Welcome aboard, BTW - we'll be expecting you on the various Discord servers. Has anyone mentioned Fantasy Grounds College to you yet? This is a fan-run Discord based group that will offer 'classes' in any aspect of FG that proves difficult. Again, I think this is a fantastic community resource and I am sure someone who knows more about it will tell you all you need to know. :)

Maasq

[JohnD]

1) Yes.
2) yes.
3) & 4) The players have a read-only copy they can access in their local cache (stored on their computer to reduce future downloads). The owning player can copy this and modify it through manage characters and so have a modified PC ready to upload when they next connect. The gotcha is that they won't have access to your DLC when they aren't connected to you.
5) The main issue is if suddenly one of the players wants to GM for a bit. They would need to get an ultimate license, or everyone other than you would need to get a standard license.


It's interesting that the typical roll20 advocate, when asked to promote roll20 over Fantasy Grounds they usually try to put Fantasy Grounds down - with a lot of their views being inaccurate. When a FG advocate is asked to promote FG over roll20 they usually describe all of the cool things FG can do, very often what roll20 can do is hardly mentioned. There are exceptions to this, but that is my general experience. I think this speaks volumes for Fantasy Grounds - users who use it do so because they like the functionality that is there for them to use. Sure there are some things that roll20 (and other VTTs) do "better" (some of it bells-and-whistles and in-your-face graphical bling, some of it truly cool features), but in the end most users stick to FG because it has the depth of features they want/need for running good, coherent, long-running RPG campaigns.

That last paragraph is golden and oh so very accurate.

[Gray Geist]

Hello all! Very direct and useful responses as always, thank you. Based on what many of you are saying it sounds like that perhaps having everyone (including me) buy a "Standard License" might be more useful in the long run. I want my players to be able to get on (on their own) and edit characters, etc without relying on me to home to turn on computer or rely on my internet connection. Now with that said I have a feeling I may have the wrong idea and having the Ult License as a DM may be highly advantageous. Has anyone experienced a situation with everyone (including DM) having Standard? Are there severe limitations to the DM having Standard I'm not understanding? On the other hand has anyone experienced having Ult and everyone having the free version? Have you run into the issue of players having no access when you're not around and had to plan it so you can get on to give them access to look at their character sheet, etc?

On the other hand I can see having Ultimate is useful and worse comes to worst I would log in 30 minutes early with my players to have them level up characters, etc but sometimes people can't crunch 30 minutes in. Just spit balling here really :)


Hiya. Both systems (Roll20 and FG) have ways to type in any homebrew that you may have. I never played with Roll20 for long so can't speak much about it's way of working, although it didn't match up with how my mind works. That wasn't necessarily their fault, though! My main reason for coming here was the community. I had a frustrating 10 days on R20 - I couldn't get in to a game, or even get people to answer my posts on the forum. I found a mention of FG, and within 24 hours had been greeted by several prominent members of the community and had a game sorted. That sold the system for me hands down. I may just have been unlucky on R20, so I wouldn't like to talk it down.

Anyway, back to my point. Entering items/spells/etc in FG is fine for one or two, but obviously importing a whole bestiary or grimoire this way is time consuming. I wrote the programs I have to try to simplify things. I've had decent feedback on their usability, so I'm confident you'll find them useful if you try them out. Item Engineer is probably next on my list, and there's a couple of parts to finish up on Spell Engineer. My real-life job is interfering with my programming just now, but this will be over by the end of June and I can get back to being a pasty-faced geek :)

So in summary - items can be entered in the FG interface, and by asking about it you've given me a spur to create Item Engineer over the summer.

Welcome aboard, BTW - we'll be expecting you on the various Discord servers. Has anyone mentioned Fantasy Grounds College to you yet? This is a fan-run Discord based group that will offer 'classes' in any aspect of FG that proves difficult. Again, I think this is a fantastic community resource and I am sure someone who knows more about it will tell you all you need to know. :)

Maasq

That is all so awesome to hear. Yeah if I imported lots of things it would be two things, Items and Baddies. You must be a Spells homebrew type guy huh? I don't see a lot of people messing with spells much most likely because of how quickly it can probably get away from you, that's a really awesome niche you've filled there though for sure! I see some incredible items being built out there so I'm surprised you didn't attack that first. I look forward to the Item Engineer for sure, I make all my items custom in the style of Dark Souls with little stories behind them, teasers to flesh out the world.

Speaking of Discord, I just can't get into the damn thing! I tried twice and find myself utterly overwhelmed by it and I absolutely hate it's interface! Is that just me? I'm sure everyone has their own ways of reading it and such but I don't think even Odin himself could keep up with all the crap that comes down the stream even only following a few boards. Do you log on and "catch up" on some stuff and focus on real time convo or do you just focus on the real time piece? I've been gaming on my PC for years and I'm a pretty fast learner but Discord just won't click - I even tried keeping it on my phone and just...meh ya know? But if Discord means I can talk to this crowd in real time and go to FG College (awesome!) then I'll have to learn :D


That last paragraph is golden and oh so very accurate.

Yeah, I've gotten that feeling already. It's very telling when a community can just speak about their favored product and it beats the other without hammering on the other. Plus if I'm being honest, I have seen the leadership of places that shalt not be named say some very strong things to the community in a blanketed way that I don't condone and do not want to financially support. So win win!

[Trenloe]

Demo/Free licenses can manage their own characters offline - if they have the ruleset and if they have access to the modules they need.
So 5E and other included licenses plus Community Rulesets this works for. It wont work for commercial rulesets as they cant be bought on a demo license.
Doing some testing recently I found an exception to this - if you have joined a GM's campaign with a demo license, and that campaign is for a commercial ruleset (the testing I did was with Starfinder), the ruleset data is downloaded to the local cache (which we pretty much already know). This allows the player to use Manage Characters and select the campaign cache data to load up that ruleset into Manage Characters - even though they don't have the ruleset installed locally. They can create characters with a ruleset they don't own this way. Of course, they don't have access to the GM's library and so can't do drag/drop character editing (which may make it of limited use to some).

[pindercarl]

Hello all! Very direct and useful responses as always, thank you. Based on what many of you are saying it sounds like that perhaps having everyone (including me) buy a "Standard License" might be more useful in the long run. I want my players to be able to get on (on their own) and edit characters, etc without relying on me to home to turn on computer or rely on my internet connection. Now with that said I have a feeling I may have the wrong idea and having the Ult License as a DM may be highly advantageous. Has anyone experienced a situation with everyone (including DM) having Standard? Are there severe limitations to the DM having Standard I'm not understanding? On the other hand has anyone experienced having Ult and everyone having the free version? Have you run into the issue of players having no access when you're not around and had to plan it so you can get on to give them access to look at their character sheet, etc?

Something to keep in mind regarding the licenses, purchased DLC is linked to the account that purchases the product. For example, if all of the players have a Standard license and one of them purchases the 5E PHB, only the player who purchased the PHB will have it available. So, while all the players having a Standard license will allow them to GM for anyone else with a Standard license, if you plan on getting a lot of the licensed products for your group, the advantage may be minimal.

[LordEntrails]

Hello all! Very direct and useful responses as always, thank you. Based on what many of you are saying it sounds like that perhaps having everyone (including me) buy a "Standard License" might be more useful in the long run. I want my players to be able to get on (on their own) and edit characters, etc without relying on me to home to turn on computer or rely on my internet connection. Now with that said I have a feeling I may have the wrong idea and having the Ult License as a DM may be highly advantageous. Has anyone experienced a situation with everyone (including DM) having Standard? Are there severe limitations to the DM having Standard I'm not understanding? On the other hand has anyone experienced having Ult and everyone having the free version? Have you run into the issue of players having no access when you're not around and had to plan it so you can get on to give them access to look at their character sheet, etc?

On the other hand I can see having Ultimate is useful and worse comes to worst I would log in 30 minutes early with my players to have them level up characters, etc but sometimes people can't crunch 30 minutes in. Just spit balling here really :)
So yea, maybe theirs a point or two you are missing.

First, I have the ultimate license and my players are typically free licenses. But, that only matters when it comes to connecting to my game. Even if everyone has standard licenses, they still have to do the export to Manage Character and then re-import into the campaign to edit their characters when they are offline. This is because the campaign "owns" the data and FG doesn't want the cache change remotely without it being changed on the server. It helps with data integrity, because what would happen if the DM changed it and the player changed it when they were not connected to each other? Which one would the database want to "keep". Not that their are ways to handle such, but FG has not (yet?) been programmed to handle it, so it just locks the player cache when offline.

Also be aware, regardless of the license setup, the players have to be connected to you in order to have access to your books/DLC. When not-connected, they will only have access to any books/DLC they have bought, or in the case of 5E, the Basic Rules and the SRD (which, if you are usingthe PHB, they probably don't want to mix).

To me, it hasn't been a big deal for me to start up FG early (or late) to let my players in to update their characters. Sometimes early, sometimes just at random times they'll ask, but it's really not something has to be done often. More so at the beginning a everyone is getting used to FG and to 5E, but later once they know the system and rules, it's not something they spend much time on.



Speaking of Discord, I just can't get into the damn thing! I tried twice and find myself utterly overwhelmed by it and I absolutely hate it's interface! Is that just me? I'm sure everyone has their own ways of reading it and such but I don't think even Odin himself could keep up with all the crap that comes down the stream even only following a few boards. Do you log on and "catch up" on some stuff and focus on real time convo or do you just focus on the real time piece? I've been gaming on my PC for years and I'm a pretty fast learner but Discord just won't click - I even tried keeping it on my phone and just...meh ya know? But if Discord means I can talk to this crowd in real time and go to FG College (awesome!) then I'll have to learn :D

I initially didn't like Discord either. But, what I found with it is on each server/channel is changing the default notification settings so I only get notified when someone names me (@LordEntrails) or uses the @everyone @here names. I also find that I generally don't try to go back and read the "old posts". Good servers will have different channels. Like a chat and an announcement channel. The announcement channel should only have stuff that you do want to go back and read. The chat is just the flood of real-time discussion (it's great for tech support and hanging out).

[Trenloe]

I agree Discord can be a slap-in-the-face-with-a-wet-fish when you first load it up and join an active server.

The biggest issue I have is that it's hard to keep up with conversations if you're not on, and it's very hard to provide feedback on incorrect statements/assumptions if you're not online around the time the discussion is made. The medium makes it more susceptible to incorrect statements that can't be corroborated or corrected. Which is why I still prefer the forums as the main way to discuss issues and questions within FG. Especially as it's hard to search/find info from previous discussions on Discord - I know there's a search facility, but getting through all the chatter is a bit of a mission.

But, for people wanting immediate answers/feedback (even if they may not be that correct) Discord is great. Even though forum folks are usually pretty quick to answer here too.

I tend to think of Discord like a busy pub. There's lots of conversations going on, a lot of them filled with the crap/nonsense that people spout when in a pub. Anyone can wander around the pub butting into conversations and giving their opinion. Don't get me wrong, some of the conversations can be useful and enlightening. And, I have been known to like busy pubs... :)

[Gray Geist]

Ahhhh got it everyone! So yeah it does seem Ultimate License is the best way to go. I'll do that and begin asking questions soon! First the demo and some messing around on my own...

[damned]

I have an Ultimate license and over time all of my players bought their own licenses whether they were Standard or Ultimate themselves.
Having Ultimate gave me the flexibility to invite anyone to my table.
Over time hopefully one or more of your players will opt to GM for a while and then you will need to revisit the license situation.
But by that time you will probably have found you are very happy and the purchase will be much easier to justify.

[JohnD]

Load FG an hour or so before your game starts. This gives your players the opportunity to review characters, whatever before game. Also, will help alleviate a big load on your bandwidth with everyone connecting at once if there are large downloads to do (i.e. 5e PHB). Plus, people can socialize, etc....

[damned]

If the op is still about I hope you have checked out the Shadow of the Demon Lord ruleset in the forge... it is moving closer to an official licensed release.