Fantasy Ground Ultimate- Selling your license

[Daedalus]

I have gotten to the point where I am completely burned out on gaming and I am selling all of my game books, shredding my character sheets and moving on to other things. I was curious if it is possible for me to sell my Ultimate License for FG since I wont need the software to someone else who might get use out of it.

Please let me know if this is possible or not

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

I have gotten to the point where I am completely burned out on gaming and I am selling all of my game books, shredding my character sheets and moving on to other things. I was curious if it is possible for me to sell my Ultimate License for FG since I wont need the software to someone else who might get use out of it.

Please let me know if this is possible or not

I guess you could just charge someone and then change password or transfer it via Steam.

The license is yours, so you can just give to someone or do what you want with it.

[pindercarl]

I guess you could just charge someone and then change password or transfer it via Steam.

The license is yours, so you can just give to someone or do what you want with it.

Technically, this would be a violation of the EULA. You should reach out to [email protected]

[JohnD]

Your license is tied to your forum account. Did you read the EULA?

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

Technically, this would be a violation of the EULA. You should reach out to [email protected]

oh, wow, he owns a license but cant just donate it? Funny.
well... i will not ever sell mine, but that seems like a fun definition of "property" and "owning" something :S
Yet, i am not a lawyer.

[JohnD]

Check the EULA of every single piece of software you use.

[Andraax]

You don't "own" a license; a license is permission to use. Just like you can't donate your driver's license to someone else, you can't donate a software license.

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

Cool, thanks guys. Learning new things as always.

[shadzar]

Check the EULA of every single piece of software you use.

except you can gift things you own on Steam to other people...

so the FG EULA is not in compliance with Steam library rules of use?

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

except you can gift things you own on Steam to other people...

so the FG EULA is not in compliance with Steam library rules of use?

Yep, that is exactly what i thought. But i will not discuss things i do not know about. lol

[Ram Tyr]

A quick review... the EULA appears consistent with Steams gift policy.

[pindercarl]

A quick review... the EULA appears consistent with Steams gift policy.

From the Fantasy Grounds EULA:

This license is not transferable to another organization. You may transfer a license to another individual once if the software has not been used on any system and you are the original buyer of the license. You may transfer the license to any private system you own.

From Steam Trading policies:

Does Steam Trading mean I can sell my used games?
No. Only games that have granted as an extra copy, and thus have never been played, can be traded. Once a Steam Gift is opened and added to your game library, you won’t be able to trade it again.

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

Thank you, guys.

[JohnD]

except you can gift things you own on Steam to other people...

so the FG EULA is not in compliance with Steam library rules of use?

So my initial thought is that obviously it must be, since it is on Steam. Then again, I don't come here and seemingly dedicate myself to trying to root out or generate apparent problems out of thin air either, so perhaps I lack the proper perspective.

Daedalus did not raise the issue of his license being purchased on Steam; the second poster is the one who first mentioned Steam, so who knows if that is even an issue.

Regardless, a quick Google search of "can you gift a game on Steam" delivered the following:


A Steam gift purchase is a one-time transfer—after the recipient has redeemed and installed the gift, it is now a part of his or her Steam games collection. Also note that you may only gift new purchases—you may not transfer games you already own.

and


Only gifts that have not been added to your Steam library can be traded. On Steam, you have a Library and an Inventory. Your Library is the list of games you own and can play, but can't trade; your Inventory is the list of games you can trade but can't play.

and


A Steam gift purchase is a one-time transfer—after the recipient has redeemed and installed the gift, it is now a part of his or her Steam games collection. Also note that you may only gift new purchases—you may not transfer games you already own.

and


Only games that have granted as an extra copy, and thus have never been played, can be traded. Once a Steam Gift is opened and added to your game library, you won't be able to trade it again.

So, under the above quotes, it would appear that if the OP had purchased FG via Steam, or initially received it as a gift via Steam, it would not matter as he has obviously "played" it thus making it ineligible to be traded.

Regardless, the OP has asked the question and one would assume either the answer(s) received so far are acceptable or, if not, he will contact SmiteWorks to discuss.

Aside from that Andraax is pointing things in the right direction.

Edit: I see Carl is faster at typing than I am.

[Bonkon]

So my initial thought is that obviously it must be, since it is on Steam. Then again, I don't come here and seemingly dedicate myself to trying to root out or generate apparent problems out of thin air either, so perhaps I lack the proper perspective.

Daedalus did not raise the issue of his license being purchased on Steam; the second poster is the one who first mentioned Steam, so who knows if that is even an issue.

Regardless, a quick Google search of "can you gift a game on Steam" delivered the following:



and



and



and



So, under the above quotes, it would appear that if the OP had purchased FG via Steam, or initially received it as a gift via Steam, it would not matter as he has obviously "played" it thus making it ineligible to be traded.

Regardless, the OP has asked the question and one would assume either the answer(s) received so far are acceptable or, if not, he will contact SmiteWorks to discuss.

Aside from that Andraax is pointing things in the right direction.

Edit: I see Carl is faster at typing than I am.

Good Day John :)
You just typed more in depth than Carl :)

[damned]

I have gotten to the point where I am completely burned out on gaming and I am selling all of my game books, shredding my character sheets and moving on to other things. I was curious if it is possible for me to sell my Ultimate License for FG since I wont need the software to someone else who might get use out of it.

Please let me know if this is possible or not

Hey man. Burn out can happen. Hopefully in time you will come back to the hobby once life is in better balance.
Hang on to a few pieces - you might regret not having them later on.
Take care and enjoy the fresh air.

[LordEntrails]

Hey man. Burn out can happen. Hopefully in time you will come back to the hobby once life is in better balance.
Hang on to a few pieces - you might regret not having them later on.
Take care and enjoy the fresh air.
Listen to this. I know of many people who have returned even after 10+ years and regret not having kept a few of their more memorable pieces. Maybe just the core books or a handful or mini's or your favorite couple of modules.

Maybe one day you'll want to pass those on to your grandchildren *G*

[Black Hammer]

Hey man. Burn out can happen. Hopefully in time you will come back to the hobby once life is in better balance.
Hang on to a few pieces - you might regret not having them later on.
Take care and enjoy the fresh air.

Yeah, burnout is absolutely a thing. Sometimes you need to get some distance from it to get a sense of what you were really enjoying, and then go back to that. I gave up on D&D (and most generic fantasy settings) due to burnout a few years back, and have no regrets.

[Nylanfs]

Maybe just a switch in game systems would help?

[Daedalus]

Your license is tied to your forum account. Did you read the EULA?

No I didn't. Most people don't. I didn't ask for attitude, just a yes or no answer.

[LordEntrails]

No I didn't. Most people don't. I didn't ask for attitude, just a yes or no answer.
No you can not sell it.

[Daedalus]

Hey man. Burn out can happen. Hopefully in time you will come back to the hobby once life is in better balance.
Hang on to a few pieces - you might regret not having them later on.
Take care and enjoy the fresh air.

Well I appreciate the kind words. I have gotten burn out before and took a break and it really didn't help. It has nothing to do with my life being in balance or not. I live in an area where there are no gamers and my only choice is to play online and it's not really fun. I did have a group that did play face to face for awhile and even then, it wasn't fun. Making a clean break is what I need to do. I enjoy Board Games and there are plenty of people around to play those and video games (and with the video games I can play them with my local group of friends online who also have a PS4). It was fun but it's just time to move on.

[Daedalus]

Listen to this. I know of many people who have returned even after 10+ years and regret not having kept a few of their more memorable pieces. Maybe just the core books or a handful or mini's or your favorite couple of modules.

Maybe one day you'll want to pass those on to your grandchildren *G*

I am not planning coming back. I took a break and came back and it really didnt help. The joy I had for the hobby for the game is gone. Making a clean break is the best way to go for me.

[Daedalus]

Maybe just a switch in game systems would help?

No, I have played other rpgs and that didnt help. I am just going to make a clean break from the hobby and move on to other things. I was just asking about the license which I guess I am stuck with, I wasn't asking to be convinced to stay in the hobby. Thank you though

[LordEntrails]

I am not planning coming back. I took a break and came back and it really didnt help. The joy I had for the hobby for the game is gone. Making a clean break is the best way to go for me.
"May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back."

[Daedalus]

No you can not sell it.

Yeah, I got that

[epithet]

No I didn't. Most people don't. I didn't ask for attitude, just a yes or no answer.

A lot of people will disagree with this, but there's not much point in reading an End User License Agreement. They all say the same thing: "You aren't buying anything, you're just bribing me to let you use my software, and I can change my mind if I want to."

There is nothing - nothing at all - that would keep you from selling your Fantasy Grounds account (including your forum account) to someone who wants to buy it. There's nothing keeping SmiteWorks from cancelling your account if you do, other than the fact that it would be a crap thing to do and Doug & Co. usually go out of their way to accommodate FG customers. Whoever buys your account (almost certainly someone in your game group, who would use it to carry on whatever campaigns you've got going) will probably buy more stuff, so nuking it wouldn't make much sense.

People love - LOVE - to tell you what you're allowed and not allowed to do, but you can do whatever you want to with the software and license. The EULA just gives the licensor an excuse to revoke your license, and as long as you are up-front about that to whomever you sell it to, it isn't your problem anymore.

With all that said, I'd suggest you hesitate before getting rid of all your game stuff. Literally everyone I've seen do that over the years has eventually come back to gaming in some form or another.

I hope things work out for you.

[Gaglug]

except you can gift things you own on Steam to other people...

so the FG EULA is not in compliance with Steam library rules of use?

One company's EULA (Valve/Steam) does not void or change any other company's EULA. As was pointed out earlier, you don't actually own any software you purchase. You're paying for the right to install a company's property(their piece of software) on your computer along with the right to use that property within their specific set of rules. Just because you don't read a EULA doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to you.

[viresanimi]

Its funny though. The whole "you don't own a license"-schick don't fly in EU. No matter what the EULA says, I have the right to sell it. As an EU citizen it is mine - I own it. There was a lot of hoopla about it a few years back. Software companies were not happy about it.

Anyhoooo... just interesting that most people over here doesn't even realize that.


Vires Animi

[ywang2011]

*deleted*

[JohnD]

Hey man. Burn out can happen. Hopefully in time you will come back to the hobby once life is in better balance.
Hang on to a few pieces - you might regret not having them later on.
Take care and enjoy the fresh air.

This would be my advice too. Step back for 3-4 months and see if the itch returns.

If it does, you'll kick yourself for whatever you get rid of now.

[JohnD]

No I didn't. Most people don't. I didn't ask for attitude, just a yes or no answer.

Not attitude - it's where you would have found the technical answer to your question.

At any rate, if the hobby holds no luster for you any longer, hopefully you do find something that you will enjoy in your hobby time going forward. :)

[dberkompas]

3-4 months? I took a break for a couple decades, did me a world of good.


Dave

[Full Bleed]

Its funny though. The whole "you don't own a license"-schick don't fly in EU. No matter what the EULA says, I have the right to sell it. As an EU citizen it is mine - I own it. There was a lot of hoopla about it a few years back. Software companies were not happy about it.

Anyhoooo... just interesting that most people over here doesn't even realize that.
Do you have some citations? Would love to see how their regulations square with the US's. I don't doubt it... the EU seems more progressive when it comes to consumer protections (probably because few special interests appeal to every member equally.)

The US has some pretty lame regulations when it comes to privacy protection with few states stepping up to fill the gap... and you don't have to get many of us started on what's been done to net neutrality... heck, it's a fight to even be able to tell where our food is sourced. Consumer advocates and protections suck here and companies get away with a lot of ridiculous things in their EULAs.

[shadzar]

Do you have some citations?

https://www.destructoid.com/eu-court-rejects-eulas-says-digital-games-can-be-resold-230641.phtml

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-03-eu-rules-publishers-cannot-stop-you-reselling-your-downloaded-games


The ruling means that gamers in European Union member states are free to sell their downloaded games, whether they're from Steam, Origin or another digital platform - no matter what End User License Agreement has been signed.

https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf


The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale

[Moon Wizard]

True, but this forces companies to subscription models and upgrade fees in order to run a business.

Regards,
JPG

[shadzar]

True, but this forces companies to subscription models and upgrade fees in order to run a business.

Regards,
JPG

right, it forces companies to tell end-users they are only renting the software. which a lot of companies do anyway, so they can nickle-and-dime the consumer to death with micro-purchases and DLC.

or harkens back to days of yore like when computer software was actually sold in a store and the person owns the personal tangible property to install the purchased copy, and can then turn around and sell that personal tangible property to someone else which is even the right in NA under first-sale doctrine. However NA, or at least USA has not fully developed to include that first-sale doctrine to include non-tangible products such as EU has with...


By its judgment delivered today, the Court explains that the principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website.

Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy. Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.

just hasn't made it across the pond, YET...

[epithet]

True, but this forces companies to subscription models and upgrade fees in order to run a business.

Regards,
JPG

That's simply not true. You sell licenses for the software in the hope that your customers buy content to use with your software from your storefront. If I sell my license to another person, they will have at least as much likelihood of making additional content purchases from you. With the current growth in the number of people playing tabletop RPGs and the percentage of them relying on virtual tabletops to do so, every license in active use is likely to sell one or more other licences for you. I don't believe for a minute that the ability to sell a software licence threatens your ability to run a business, or forces you to use a subscription model.

[damned]

That's simply not true. You sell licenses for the software in the hope that your customers buy content to use with your software from your storefront. If I sell my license to another person, they will have at least as much likelihood of making additional content purchases from you. With the current growth in the number of people playing tabletop RPGs and the percentage of them relying on virtual tabletops to do so, every license in active use is likely to sell one or more other licences for you. I don't believe for a minute that the ability to sell a software licence threatens your ability to run a business, or forces you to use a subscription model.

Its interesting that you can make a statement of fact contradicting someone who actually has the numbers to verify their own statements.

Companies with products that are developed on an ongoing basis that dont charge subscription or maintenance fees are in the minority.

[Andraax]

If you want software to be able to be resold like a physical book, then you have to accept the limitations of a physical book as well. That means no updates. The text in your physical book doesn't magically change if a new printing of the book is released with changes.

If you want software that is updated and maintained, you need to accept limitations on resale, or you need to accept either a subscription model or a new cost every time an update is released.

The EU courts want consumers to have the best of everything - ability to sell their licenses to others, and that the licensed software will continue to be updated in perpetuity. That ain't gonna happen - people don't like working for free.

[LordEntrails]

The EU courts want consumers to have the best of everything - ability to sell their licenses to others, and that the licensed software will continue to be updated in perpetuity. That ain't gonna happen - people don't like working for free.
You mean just because I helped put food on your table last year that your not my slave for eternity? And that you should keep updating for free what I bought in hopes that I might pay you once more for something new you come up with in your spare time?

[shadzar]

If you want software to be able to be resold like a physical book, then you have to accept the limitations of a physical book as well. That means no updates. The text in your physical book doesn't magically change if a new printing of the book is released with changes.

except this isn't true. when a book run goes out with glaring errors, then it is often recalled and reprinted and refunds all around issued.

When something goes wrong in 3.3.5 5e ruleset and saves are giving errors of "a nil value" and Moon Wizard only has to push a patch to fix it without recalling product and having to eat the cost to produce that recalled product....

and then you can also look at things that never gt finished: No Man's Sky, DayZ (which has been selling itself and DLC for 8 years and it is still in beta with no hope of ever being finished) then people need protection from this digital market like they do from physical product snake oil salesmen.

[Daedalus]

"May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back."

Thank You

[epithet]

Its interesting that you can make a statement of fact contradicting someone who actually has the numbers to verify their own statements.

Companies with products that are developed on an ongoing basis that dont charge subscription or maintenance fees are in the minority.

I am not looking to pick a fight, and I know I shouldn't bring my peeves onto a game forum and wave them around at everyone. It is my belief, however - borne out by my experience - that in many industries the worst practices tend to become the industry standard. In part, this is because once a business entity or group of businesses become powerful enough they tend to use their influence to create a legal framework that creates and protects a "heads I win, tails you lose" model of doing business. In this case, the "big guys" in the industry have established certain practices with regard to the "standard" EULA which they insist are necessary, defending them to the world and promoting them within the industry.

This is not an isolated phenomenon. In recent years, for example, the contract for monitoring services for home security and alarm systems has become standardized. The largest companies in the industry have promoted the idea that it is necessary "for them to do business" to have an indemnification clause in their contracts, and if you have a monitored security system you can find it in the fine print--they all have it now. The indemnification clause, which uses standardized language, specified that if the monitoring company is negligent in performing their contractual obligations, and they are sued for that negligence by someone else who is not party to the contract, then you the customer are required to pay that judgment as well as the company's legal fees. What that means is that if they screw up and send law enforcement to the wrong house, and law enforcement breaks down the wrong door and shoots the dog that's in the wrong house, and that homeowner sues the security company that screwed up and wins the lawsuit... You guessed it! The customer whose alarm was triggered not only didn't get a law enforcement response to his own house, he has to pay the judgment award to the other homeowner and the security company's legal fees. If you have gotten a security system or renewed you contract within the last decade or so, you have agreed to this garbage, and the security companies--even the small local ones--will tell you that it is necessary for them to do business. They believe it, because companies like ADT have made sure that it is standard industry practice, and have presented their BS (but well crafted) justification at seminars and trade shows for many years now.

Tech isn't much different. Companies like Apple, EA, and Activision set practices that eventually become standard, and you eventually wind up with good, honest developers believing that the only way to stay in business is to have a "You have bought nothing, but in exchange for your money I may allow you to use something of mine" type of EULA. And the worst part is they're not entirely mistaken about that. When you have the ability to purchase "access" to lawmakers, you can create a framework where the system completely screws over any developer that doesn't use your type of license agreement. Heads, I win... tails, you lose.

That's why you're better off doing business with a company that's local or, like SmiteWorks, is of a size and mentality that it can have a relationship with its customers. That's what I was getting at in my first post in this thread--the EULA isn't much worth reading, because it is only going to protect the licensor and carefully ensure that the licensee (that's us) gets nothing. It is the industry standard. When you're in a circumstance where the licensor can do or not do whatever it wants, you have to count on the people who will make those decisions. It has been my happy experience that Doug and his crew actually care about making a great thing that people want to use and enjoy, and are committed to customer service. What it all comes down to in the end is the human element of the transaction, the "handshake." SmiteWorks can put whatever they want to in their fine print, I trust them not to be unreasonably rotten about it.

For context, I'm a corporate attorney. I've helped to do the sort of crap I'm complaining about here, but fortunately it hasn't made me cynical at all! Or sarcastic, either.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I shan't again screedify in this thread.

[Andraax]

except this isn't true. when a book run goes out with glaring errors, then it is often recalled and reprinted and refunds all around issued.

"Often"? I've only heard about something like this happening like 3 or 4 times in my life. Most of the time, an errata is posted somewhere with a note that "this will be fixed in future printings." And we're not talking about "glaring errors" anyway - this is along the lines of fixing spelling mistakes or adding a new chapter here or there with corrections / clarifications.

I have an old "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" around here somewhere that I bought in college 4 decades ago. Cost me $150 then (that would be like $600+ in today's money, but I notice that they still only charge like $200 for a new printing). Over the years, there have been a number of corrections, new, more accurate measurements, and entire new sections added to that handbook. No one offered me a refund and new copy for free. If I want the updates, I have to buy the book again in a new printing. The current printing is the 98th edition, mine is the 62nd edition. So, there has been 36 new releases since I bought mine, and the page total has grown from 2,332 to 2,670.

I demand my refund and a new copy for free!

[LordEntrails]

"Often"? I've only heard about something like this happening like 3 or 4 times in my life. ...
I've never heard of it happening. And out of the few thousand books I've bought I've never had one updated for free.

[Trenloe]

"Often"? I've only heard about something like this happening like 3 or 4 times in my life. Most of the time, an errata is posted somewhere with a note that "this will be fixed in future printings."
Yeah, I really don't know where this has occurred with books - short of the book falling apart due to printing/binding issues, like the the recent Starfinder core rulebook - but this is an obvious not-fit-for-purpose manufacturing defect, not book version reprint or over time (many years) software upgrades/updates.

Returns and free replacements are usually reserved for dangerous car components, poisoned food, etc.. :-o

[epithet]

For what it's worth, Matt Colville revised his two novels, Priest and Thief to make corrections. As I understand it, you can re-download the Kindle versions to get the updated edition.

[Andraax]

For what it's worth, Matt Colville revised his two novels, Priest and Thief to make corrections. As I understand it, you can re-download the Kindle versions to get the updated edition.

Yeah, but you are not allowed to "resell" your Kindle books. And if you bought a paper copy of the book (which you *can* resell) I doubt they reprinted and provided an update for free. This is exactly what we are discussing. The EU courts want software to be able to be resold *and* for the provider of the software to then continue to update it for life.

[epithet]

... The EU courts want software to be able to be resold *and* for the provider of the software to then continue to update it for life.
I didn't see any obligation to update the software imposed by the EU courts. I suppose that as long as it makes sense to keep the software updated (because of in-app purchases, etc.) the developer will do so.

[Andraax]

I didn't see any obligation to update the software imposed by the EU courts. I suppose that as long as it makes sense to keep the software updated (because of in-app purchases, etc.) the developer will do so.

It was in the original Oracle decision.


There are some interesting side notes on this. First, the court also rules that if Oracle promised free maintenance updates to the original licensee, it must continue to provide those to whomever purchased the "used" software.
EU Court Says, Yes, You Can Resell Your Software, Even If The Software Company Says You Can't (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120703/11345519566/eu-court-says-yes-you-can-resell-your-software-even-if-software-company-says-you-cant.shtml)

[Andraax]

I've never heard of it happening. And out of the few thousand books I've bought I've never had one updated for free.

Most recent case I know of:


A Million Little Pieces is a book by James Frey, originally sold as a memoir and later marketed as a semi-fictional novel following accusations of literary forgery. It tells the story of a 23-year-old alcoholic and drug abuser and how he copes with rehabilitation in a twelve steps-oriented treatment center. While initially promoted as a memoir, it was later discovered that many of the events described in the book never happened.

...

Random House issued a statement regarding the controversy. It noted that future editions of the book would contain notes from both the publisher and Frey on the text, as well as prominent notations on the cover and on their website about the additions. On September 12, 2006, Frey and publisher Random House, Inc. reached a tentative legal settlement, where readers who felt that they had been defrauded by Frey's A Million Little Pieces would be offered a refund. In order to receive the refund, customers must submit a proof of purchase, pieces of the book itself (page 163 from the hard cover or the front cover from the paperback), and complete a sworn statement indicating that they purchased the book under the assumption that it was a memoir.
Wikipedia: A Million Little Pieces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Pieces)

Actually, the funniest thing that I saw regarding this event is an interview with Nan Talese, the senior editor at the Random House imprint that published the book. During the interview, her husband, Gay Talese, was sitting next to her - and he was the senior editor at a different imprint for Random House at the time. Nan said something along the lines of "Just because it's marketed as an autobiography doesn't mean that it's non-fictional." And her husband kind of recoiled, looked at her and said "Yes, by definition an autobiography is non-fiction."

[LordEntrails]

Most recent case I know of:
...
Wikipedia: A Million Little Pieces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Pieces)
Thanks Andraax, but I think this supports both or our views that this is not common. And it wasn't done because an author or publisher decided they could make improvements to a book, but rather it was done because of illegal/immoral activity in the initial publication.

And the other case that Trenloe (?) mentioned about Starfinder (which I think also happened with the first printing of the 5E PHB) was due to poor quality of the product and mechanical failure.

The third case mentioned was a pdf/e-book that was updated, and as we know, the cost to re-distribute a digital file is minimal. But it also might be closest to a software analogy. But I also suspect this was done by the author because they felt their initial product was not the product they wanted to release, not because they continue to make incremental improvement to it. If the author decides to add another chapter or two every few months, then that would be a good analogy to a maintained piece of software like FG. But I doubt the author will ever do that.

Another point, in my industry (engineering software), users are typically expected to pay a 15% maintenance fee every year to entitle them to support and updates. No 15% then you don't get support and you don't get updates. Can you imagine the uproar on the forums here if SmiteWorks adopted such an approach?

[Andraax]

Thanks Andraax, but I think this supports both or our views that this is not common.

Yeah, it's pretty rare. That's why I've only heard of a handful of instances in my life - and I'm an old fart.

[shadzar]

Most recent case I know of:

more recently than that and relative to FG...

https://dndadventurersleague.org/so-your-dd-fifth-edition-players-handbook-has-fallen-apart/


Posted on Nov 30, 2015

It’s no big secret that the first print run of Dungeons & Dragons’ fifth edition Player’s Handbook had a batch of books that, unfortunately, tended to fall apart at their spines (see a couple of examples here and here). D&D publisher Wizards of the Coast has changed printers since then, and instances of PHs coming apart should decrease as players get them replaced.

[Myrdin Potter]

I think that the answer to the OP is clear - contact Smiteworks directly if you want an exception. I have seen zero cases if them not being as reasonable as they can and playing the longer reputation game over short-term profits.

The rest is consumer law which varies by country. The US courts are taking a very dim view in shrink-wrap licenses and I have a feeling that suing the person whose alarm went off instead of the company that was negligent will not hold up in court. The liability comes from negligence and falsely dispatching police, not from the customer relationship. I can resell any book I own, but they don’t get upgrades. If I resold the Frey book mentioned above, the purchaser would have a hard time claiming a refund as it is long public knowledge of the fraud there.

Always hate to see a gamer leave, but I full understand that online gaming is great but if there is no chance to have a coal, in person group, then it can lose its appeal.

[Andraax]

Yeah, that was a physical failure of the book, not because the information in it was updated.

[shadzar]

Yeah, that was a physical failure of the book, not because the information in it was updated.

which is what i said.... and you replied to and added the "errata" part.



except this isn't true. when a book run goes out with glaring errors, then it is often recalled and reprinted and refunds all around issued.
"Often"? I've only heard about something like this happening like 3 or 4 times in my life. Most of the time, an errata is posted somewhere with a note that "this will be fixed in future printings." And we're not talking about "glaring errors" anyway - this is along the lines of fixing spelling mistakes or adding a new chapter here or there with corrections / clarifications.

[pindercarl]

The original poster's question has long been answered and spidey-sense tells me that this thread is about to spin wildly away from the original topic. Closing this thread.