"Theatrical Maps" for Theater of the Mind combats

[ddavison]

Here is a basic PSD template you can use. Just replace the background later and export it out as a JPG. If you have any artwork that you own or have the rights to use, please share some cool examples here. It can be done in lots of neat ways to show a forest scene, underdark, etc.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/free/Theatrical_Map_Blank.jpg
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/free/Theatrical_Map_Blank.psd

Here is an example of its usage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOdUcSCx1-U?start=15m56s

The strategic maps starts at 15m 56s.

[Gwydion]

Thanks, Doug! I watched you demo this on Friday's stream and was very intrigued....

[Valyar]

I find this approach quite interesting. Might try it when my players go into unexpected direction and end in a fight. Any suggestions how to fit it this into game systems where measurements for modifiers or actions are done when combatants are relative to their targets and not to some absolute scale?

Weapons have different modifiers when the target is at different distances or powers function to certain range. Just to name a few examples.

[shadzar]

is there any real difference to the one Celestian posted last month? I mean they are just both images and don't really do anything except sit in the image display, which is all maps are unless you add a grid to them.

or is this going to have other function inside FG other than just being another image with a grid? like show health in this viewing ode, or status effects, etc?

[LordEntrails]

is there any real difference to the one Celestian posted last month? I mean they are just both images and don't really do anything except sit in the image display, which is all maps are unless you add a grid to them.

or is this going to have other function inside FG other than just being another image with a grid? like show health in this viewing ode, or status effects, etc?
No it doesn't do anything special. You can watch the posted video just before 16 minutes and you can see an example of how you can use it.

[shadzar]

i saw the video, was there when it was live. still wasnt sure, since it was moving so fast, chat was mostly ignored during the show to ask questions. ;) Doug was going so fast moving the tokens around in sections, Dave trying to mention a few things, and it was a hectic non-combat TOTM combat. :p SOP for D&D games

[Trenloe]

is there any real difference to the one Celestian posted last month? I mean they are just both images and don't really do anything except sit in the image display
Yes, it "just" sits in the image display... But like any FG map you can add tokens to it, add pointers, use targeting, etc. - all of the usual things you can "just" do with a FG map. More details here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Images

The difference with this post, compared to Celestian's, is that Doug has included a PSD file which will allow you to include your own thematic image - to set the scene/mood for the combat.

[ddavison]

Someone requested that I redo the PSD file in RGB mode so it can be opened in GIMP. The new version should now be available at the same link.

@shadzar, sorry. When I was sharing full-screen I was unable to see chat.

@Valyar, you just need to find some way to represent that visually. If different headings make sense, you can swap those out for your system of choice. You will still do your best to describe it verbally. At that point, the image simply aids with that process. This essentially replaces the part where the DM waves his hands in the air to the left and says, "monsters approach from this direction and surround the thief who was scouting, meanwhile you and the rest of the party are back here". Even though you have people in the same range section, they may not necessarily be immediately next to each other. Place the tokens in clusters to represent which groups of people are together or spread out.

I've watched certain famous GMs describe combat and then when the wizard cast fireball they say that it only hit one or two foes. IMO, a good DM should still allow for some tactical planning even when not using a map. If there are three long-range enemies, maybe place two of them together and one off to the side. That way, the player feels like they were clever catching the two together -- or they may decide that catching two isn't a good use of a fireball and instead they opt to deliver a single target spell to completely remove one of the enemies. It's just an extra tool to help players visualize where everything is in relation to everything else.

Example 1:

There is a hobgoblin and an iron guard hobgoblin in melee with Radaban. They are all considered engaged and it would take a disengage action to leave without provoking an AOO. They are also not close enough to each other to touch an ally in combat for healing, buffs, etc. unless they move.
There is another hobgoblin and a hobgoblin devastator within a single move from where the melee is occurring. They are close enough to each other to be affected by area effect spells that are reasonably small
There are two other hobgoblins out at long range but they are not immediately close to each other. They may be close enough to cover under a single area of effect if it is large. Small areas of effect would only catch one of them and none of the close range enemies.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22938&d=1523365222
22938

Example 2:

There are two combats occurring in the middle of the battlefield. Warty the Warlock is off fighting a single gnoll while Bob the Barbarian is fighting two bugbears.
Rag is hanging way back. He can use long range magic to affect people in melee (and maybe close range) but he is too far away to affect other long range foes. It would take Rag a move action to move in closer.
The bearded devil has to at least double-move to make it to close range and then another move to get into melee on round 2. This allows you to telegraph a growing threat. Perhaps the players have an opportunity to cut and run earlier or they are able to cast a wall of force to block him from joining the fight??

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22939&d=1523365739
22939

[Valyar]

Doug, thank you for the time spent answering my question. :) I have much better grasp on idea you presented in the video and when I had time to look from different perspectives at my specific situation, I think I found the approach that will work:

There shouldn't be a problem to use relative distances and modifiers to rolls based on those relative distances if all participants have an absolute starting point to measure their distance between each other. Looking at your images the answer is clear - this is the melee zone. All measurements can start from it, as ground zero, and instead of abstract ranges to have numbers instead. Something like:


Out of Combat > 100m > 50m > 25m > 10m> Point Blank > Melee < Point Blank < 10m < 25m < 50m < 100m < Out of Combat

Also having multiple rows will allow to place melee fighting that occurs at range from the central Melee zone and still be able to retain sufficiently accurate measurement of distance and apply modifiers in a proper manner.

Now i need to get proper sci-fi themed image for the grim darkness of the far future and find victims. :)

[celestian]

It would be really nice if FG had a "Theatrical" mode for the "Order" section of the party sheet. Overlay the long/short/melee bits and let us maybe even put a image behind it on the fly.

[Trenloe]

It would be really nice if FG had a "Theatrical" mode for the "Order" section of the party sheet. Overlay the long/short/melee bits and let us maybe even put a image behind it on the fly.
You can't do it on the fly, because it needs to be a predefined frame in the ruleset. But you can pre-set a graphic with this extension: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?28564-Marching-Formation-Extension

[celestian]

You can't do it on the fly, because it needs to be a predefined frame in the ruleset. But you can pre-set a graphic with this extension: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?28564-Marching-Formation-Extension

Aye, I'm aware of that. I meant more of another version that is either specifically for Theatrical encounter types or a toggle within the "Order" tab.

It would need another overlay and option to load the images. Mostly meant this as a request for it to be added.

Someone could probably write another extension to do this (at least part of it) but not me, buried under my day job.

[Trenloe]

Mostly meant this as a request for it to be added.
Go hither: https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/

:)

[damned]

Aye, I'm aware of that. I meant more of another version that is either specifically for Theatrical encounter types or a toggle within the "Order" tab.

It would need another overlay and option to load the images. Mostly meant this as a request for it to be added.

Someone could probably write another extension to do this (at least part of it) but not me, buried under my day job.

I could probably extend the party sheet marching formation to have another view with the TotM map but Im not sure how that would help with Combat...

[shadzar]

@shadzar, sorry. When I was sharing full-screen I was unable to see chat.

yeah, which is why i said the TOTM combat was as hectic as real combat. :p only so much you can do with only Dave helping and 40 viewers and 20 people chatting at the same time. would need a team of mods to relay things to the stream to be able to address any salient points brought up.

but now i know its just a free image for people to use and redistribute with their creations extensions/themes/rulesets etc.

[celestian]

I could probably extend the party sheet marching formation to have another view with the TotM map but Im not sure how that would help with Combat...

The option would need to be able to be recognized as an actual map, bit more functionality that just the "Order" option has.

[damned]

The option would need to be able to be recognized as an actual map, bit more functionality that just the "Order" option has.

Which means you may a well just use a map...

[Ellspeth]

Okay I think I have this figured out (geez I learn so much around here my brain is starting to hurt). So I am going to share here to be sure I have this right. My image couldn't be fit to the frame exactly but the neutral sections show outside so I think it is fine.
22954

[damned]

Okay I think I have this figured out (geez I learn so much around here my brain is starting to hurt). So I am going to share here to be sure I have this right. My image couldn't be fit to the frame exactly but the neutral sections show outside so I think it is fine.

Ouch. Someone is going to go thru the ringer!

[ddavison]

Okay I think I have this figured out (geez I learn so much around here my brain is starting to hurt). So I am going to share here to be sure I have this right. My image couldn't be fit to the frame exactly but the neutral sections show outside so I think it is fine.
22954

Yep, you got it. It's nothing fancy.

What I would suggest is that you scale the background image up so it extends beyond the overall window so you don't have any of the other image showing through at all. It would be better to cut off parts of the top or bottom of your preferred image (IMO) instead of having an unrelated image bleeding through. If you are using Photoshop, you can click the eyeball icon to turn off the under layer too. If you do that, add a base layer that you fill with a solid color so you don't have a transparent background.

You can also change the colors of the lines if you want. When you open it up, set a 100 pixel grid if you want one column wide per section. Set it to 50 pixels if you want it 2 wide. It should be flexible enough to handle big or small combats.

[celestian]

Which means you may a well just use a map...

Well, my thought was since the "Order" window/map already has the "overlay" functionality of sorts it might not be difficult to add the another overlay of the short/long/melee as well. Then people could just put any old image behind it.

I'm sure it's possible. It might just be better to have a "overlay" option on any image in maps though instead.

[Trenloe]

Well, my thought was since the "Order" window/map already has the "overlay" functionality of sorts it might not be difficult to add the another overlay of the short/long/melee as well. Then people could just put any old image behind it.

I'm sure it's possible. It might just be better to have a "overlay" option on any image in maps though instead.
Not sure overlay you're referring to. All the standard PS sheet Marching/Formation image is a basic imagecontrol (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/refdoc/imagecontrol.xcp) with a 50 pixel grid:


<imagecontrol name="image">
<anchored position="insidetopright" offset="10,30">
<left offset="270" />
<bottom offset="-30" />
</anchored>
<frame name="groupbox" offset="10,10,10,10" />
<indicators availability="image_sent" locked="image_locked" loading="image_loading" zoom="image_zoom" shortcuts="image_shortcuts" />
<default snap="on" drawingsize="500,500" gridsize="50" />
<script>
function onMaskingStateChanged(tool)
window.drawtools.onValueChanged();
end

function onDrawStateChanged(tool)
window.drawtools.onValueChanged();
end
</script>
</imagecontrol>


Less functionality than a normal map/image.

Were you referring to the grid as the overlay?

[celestian]

Were you referring to the grid as the overlay?

Yeap.

[Trenloe]

The grid is built into the imagecontrol, it's not an overlay as such.

I think the most that would be possible would be baking something into the normal image window frame (not the party sheet). Then you could have any image you want, including those from modules, and switch between different frames. The only concern I'd have would be if the frame can be put over the base image, and if the graphics content of this (i.e. the non alpha transparency) would interfere with the normal operation of the image - token selection, drawing, masking, etc.. There's also be problems with scaling to different sized images, and zooming too.

I just don't know if it's possible in the current architecture.

[Ellspeth]

Okay better, not perfect. I don't use photo shop I did this between GIMP and Corel's Essential Artist. I know you can run theatrical combat right on the tracker, and I play with GM's who do that very well. I tried it and for newer players it makes it a bit confusing, a simple image like this I think resolves that. I could only resize the image so far (you have no idea how hard it was to find a decent image of a printing press in the 1930's) but I think this gives more than a good enough visual to set mood and space.
22957

[Trenloe]

(you have no idea how hard it was to find a decent image of a printing press in the 1930's) but I think this gives more than a good enough visual to set mood and space.
Spoiler alert?!? ;)

[pindercarl]

Okay better, not perfect. I don't use photo shop I did this between GIMP and Corel's Essential Artist. I know you can run theatrical combat right on the tracker, and I play with GM's who do that very well. I tried it and for newer players it makes it a bit confusing, a simple image like this I think resolves that. I could only resize the image so far (you have no idea how hard it was to find a decent image of a printing press in the 1930's) but I think this gives more than a good enough visual to set mood and space.
22957

I had pretty luck with an image search by adding "Heidelberg" to the search terms (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1439&bih=759&ei=zDnOWpa5GOie0gLvvLnwBg&q=heidelberg+presses+1930&oq=heidelberg+presses+1930&gs_l=img.3...5901.5901.0.6358.4.4.0.0.0.0.66.66.1. 1.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..3.0.0.0...0.QSwg8uOA2lI#i mgrc=_).

[Ellspeth]

Spoiler alert?!? ;)

Sure because everyone knows the players are going to go exactly where the GM planned for them to go right? :)

Pindercarl "I had pretty luck with an image search by adding "Heidelberg" to the search terms."

Wow that helped, I am always impressed how often a single word can change a search result.

[pindercarl]

Pindercarl "I had pretty luck with an image search by adding "Heidelberg" to the search terms."

Would it be an abuse of moderator access to edit both my original post and your reply to fix my response to "I had pretty good luck..."? I spent a few years working in print shops back in the day. Heidelberg was the first press manufacturer I could think of that was making presses in the 30s.

[Ellspeth]

Would it be an abuse of moderator access to edit both my original post and your reply to fix my response to "I had pretty good luck..."? I spent a few years working in print shops back in the day. Heidelberg was the first press manufacturer I could think of that was making presses in the 30s.

Not at all however the creative writer in me is tempted to suggest a phrase like "a pretty piece of luck" Just for flavor. :)

[shadzar]

My image couldn't be fit to the frame exactly but the neutral sections show outside so I think it is fine.
22954
looks good. it is just a picture to give some idea of the area for non-tactical combat. without being a generic gridded battlemat.

any old picture you want to set the theme. so it looks like you didnt need to stop the presses to get to your TOTM.

[shadzar]

I just don't know if it's possible in the current architecture.

can the image/map frame use the same functionality as the character sheet and have those tabs on the side for other layers to it? :confused:

you could build an entire house that way complete with basement/attic if you can use the tabs on images/maps. :confused:

[shadzar]

Finally got around to messing with this and it wont even open. error for every thing imaginable, rectangle1, shape2, missing font, etc... then failed to open.

not backwards compatible for older versions of Photoshop at all for the PSD.

was easier to create a blank one by hand.

is the red color going to be something with FGU where it will read that exact red for something like its lighting or other visual effects, or just "red is the color of the blood of my enemies WAHHHHH!!" and any color would be fine?

[ddavison]

Any color for the lines will work. That is purely visual and most people will probably prefer something other than red.

The key if you recreate it is just to pick a good width that is easily divided into the sections and then place some kind of label on the image for each section.

[shadzar]

ok, so purely visual with FGU in mind, i think i will make a few themed ones with even the lines having patterns. and this is the largest size maps that Classic and FGU suggests?

[ddavison]

For this purpose, I just think anything larger is wasted. Players may want this, the combat tracker and chat all visible at once without having to shuffle too much. If you go larger, you'll have more issues there.

[Doswelk]

In Ellspeth's Savage Worlds game is was noted that the template is missing Medium Range (suspect 5e does not have medium range), so I made one.

Download here (from my dropbox) (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yxhry6p1j3g8i0i/SW_Theatrical_Map_blank.psd?dl=0)

[Ellspeth]

In Ellspeth's Savage Worlds game is was noted that the template is missing Medium Range (suspect 5e does not have medium range), so I made one.

Download here (from my dropbox) (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yxhry6p1j3g8i0i/SW_Theatrical_Map_blank.psd?dl=0)

Thanks Doswelk, and even the other version did what I needed for Friday nights fight in the printing room of the Athens Review. Map was fine, the morlock overseer and the eloi workers were a bit tougher than I expected though. :)

[Trenloe]

...Friday nights fight in the printing room of the Athens Review.
What? You had a fight in a printing room?!?!? I didn't see that coming... ;)

[Ellspeth]

Players didn't read the forums, neither did they. :) Worse was not seeing the sudden ice storm and blizzard in Athens Georgia (in April) coming. :).

[rob2e]

Nobody can imagine just how hard I am laughing. I am literally crying. I know it's only me, but my players will probably be NONE TOO HAPPY about this...

23355

[k410]

Now I see! The first time I saw "theatrical maps" I thought they would be for something like the Globe Theatre or an opera house ...

[Trenloe]

Now I see! The first time I saw "theatrical maps" I thought they would be for something like the Globe Theatre or an opera house ...
Haha - yeah, it is a little vague. I've changed the thread title.

[k410]

Well, I should also learn some of this lingo. ;-)

It did get me thinking about a cool setting for a battle or set of encounters, though. Maybe one where the party can be a little split to do different things in different areas of the building.

[Trenloe]

.. where the party can be a little split to do different things in different areas of the building.
Nooooooooo!!!!

;)

[k410]

OK OK ... must think more sequentially ...

[Griogre]

I was updating my images to WebP so I went ahead and turned Doug's Theater of the Mind frame into WebP leaving the "image" area transparent so you can use your own images. Just drop the frame into FGU and then put an image on the layer under it.

FYI the image is 800x600 and the transparent area is ah... 800x539 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Square size is supposed to be 100.

The forum doesn't actually allow webp files so I zipped the file up.

[ddavison]

cool. Thanks.

[fabiocm]

Is there a way to force image setting "send to background" to the players? I mean that button on the top left of the image settings (one click to background, two clicks to foreground).
Would be very useful if we could simple make all players see the image as the GM want.

[LordEntrails]

Is there a way to force image setting "send to background" to the players? I mean that button on the top left of the image settings (one click to background, two clicks to foreground).
Would be very useful if we could simple make all players see the image as the GM want.
Not currently

[Zacchaeus]

Is there a way to force image setting "send to background" to the players? I mean that button on the top left of the image settings (one click to background, two clicks to foreground).
Would be very useful if we could simple make all players see the image as the GM want.

Not everyone will want the image set to the background; nor might that suit their screen size or other set up. So things like the way FGU is laid out is left to the individual and not forced upon them.

[fabiocm]

The screen size would not be a problem, since any player can adjust the zoom in images, even on the background. Thus, the player can close it when he wants.

Decal images are not a good way to set mood because it has absolute size, unlike image sent to background (that became the size of the screen). The decal image size in the screen changes with screen resolution, UI scale, etc., so the GM can't say what the players are truly seeing (i.e., the decal image is not meant for practical use in game).

[LordEntrails]

The screen size would not be a problem, since any player can adjust the zoom in images, even on the background. Thus, the player can close it when he wants.

Decal images are not a good way to set mood because it has absolute size, unlike image sent to background (that became the size of the screen). The decal image size in the screen changes with screen resolution, UI scale, etc., so the GM can't say what the players are truly seeing (i.e., the decal image is not meant for practical use in game).
Add the request to the Wish List. Link in Mr Z's signature :)

It's also best to put new requests/issues/topics in new threads. So I would suggest if you do add to the wish list you start a new thread as well and link the two.