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Octavious
March 24th, 2018, 08:23
I would like some feed back on how the surprise round is actually done and when it is not .There is a couple of paragraphs on this in the rule book ..

from what I can tell it falls into 2 types of surprise categories..

On page 238 it states " 3. Surprise Round: If some but not all of the characters are surprised, combat begins with a surprise round, during
which only characters who aren’t surprised can act and their choice of actions is limited (see Surprise below)"

Then on page 239 it states "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents when combat breaks out, a surprise round takes
place before normal combat rounds begin. In order of the characters’ initiative results (highest to lowest; see Initiative
below), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents can each take either a standard or move action
during the surprise round. Characters can also take swift actions during the surprise round.

If no characters or all characters are aware of their opponents,no surprise round occurs, and combat proceeds as normal."

Surprised Combatants: During combat, combatants who are
surprised at the start of battle have the flat-footed condition.

so what I am seeing here is if some but not all are surprised then a surprise round occurs and surprised combatants cannot act at all , no movement reaction or action(page 238) and are flatfooted (page 239) and npc's and pcs who are not surprised take limited actions.

but if ALL are surprised then normal combat round is engaged and no surprise round occurs and NPC and PC take normal actions and movements but the surprised just take a flatfooted condition and that's all.

This makes no sense to me at all .. If no characters are aware of the opponents then no surprise round occurs?? if they are not aware are not they surprised? and why if all are surprised then why are they flatfooted and can move or take actions but if part are surprised they cannot move or take actions? ..

Flatfooted condition says nothing about not being able to take an action or move it only states a decrease in AC and cannot take reactions..

Any clarifications on this would be helpful .. thanks for any help ..

Vhok
March 24th, 2018, 08:33
If no characters or all characters are aware of their opponents,no surprise round occurs, and combat proceeds as normal."
This makes no sense to me at all .. If no characters are aware of the opponents then no surprise round occurs?? if they are not aware are not they surprised?

there are two parts to this first is if no one knew the combat was about to happen. for example your walking along and fall into a hole and land in the middle of a group of baddies, you and them are surprised. no one saw this coming. so no surprise round for this. however if he knew they were at the bottom of the hole and jumped in to attack then they would be surprised and unable to act in the surprise round you just earned.

the second part is where everyone see's it coming your looking at them they are looking at you and you all draw weapons and go at it, no surprise round needed everyone saw this coming.



Surprised Combatants: During combat, combatants who are surprised at the start of battle have the flat-footed condition.
Flatfooted condition says nothing about not being able to take an action or move it only states a decrease in AC and cannot take reactions..
Any clarifications on this would be helpful .. thanks for any help ..

if you are flatfooted and surprised you have no turn so you can't take a swift, move or standard action. and flatfooted removes your reaction. so you have no actions you can take. that is all this is telling you.

Octavious
March 24th, 2018, 08:52
Vhok, thanks for the reply . I guess I was not understanding on how flatfooted works.. so lets say I jump in the hole and surprise the bad guys.. they become surprised and flatfooted and the surprise round begins with round 1 . so during round one they cannot act as they lose that turn until round 2 (normal combat round) comes up for them? is that correct? (this is new rules for me ).

and the surprise round .. the limited actions part.. (using the scenario above) does that apply also to everyone including me and the baddies in the surprise round (everyone)

thanks again ..

Vhok
March 24th, 2018, 09:04
anyone not surprised in the surprise round gets the normal limited actions, 1 standard action i believe. no one else gets any actions and is flatfooted till the begining of their first turn after the surprise round is over

Trenloe
March 24th, 2018, 13:23
This makes no sense to me at all .. If no characters are aware of the opponents then no surprise round occurs?? if they are not aware are not they surprised?
Maybe part of the confusion here is that you're thinking of "characters" as just Player Characters. Characters can mean PCs or NPCs (including creatures/monsters). Therefore, in relation to combat - "characters" is used to refer to all entities involved in the combat.

Hence "If no characters are aware of the opponents then no surprise round occurs" means that everyone in the combat is not aware of any of their opponents - no PCs are aware of NPCs and no NPCs are aware of PCs. As no one is aware, there is no one who has any advantage, so there is no point in running a surprise round - because no one can act at all. Description wise, you could say everyone just stares open mouthed at the others around them and then they gather their wits and jump into action (roll for initiative and start the first normal combat round).

In theory, the surprise round is not actually a normal full round - hence why those who act get to do limited actions. It is a game mechanic to simulate some protagonists getting the drop on some/all of their opponents.

Octavious
March 24th, 2018, 16:56
Vhok, thank you that makes it clear to me thanks again , and Trenloe you are right I was confused about if it was talking about NPC and PC or combinations of . so I am clear on it now.. thank you both for the clarification.. I am running a game and there was quite a bit of discussion about the surprise round so this clears it up for me .. thanks again guys.

Vhok
March 24th, 2018, 18:56
no problem. if you have anymore questions feel free to post them :)