Encounter Balance

[Gix]

Looking for suggestions on making my encounters ACTUALLY deadly-ish.

I've got 6 players. 2 of them are druids, 1 a cleric.

Currently they're level 3. I've been using the "Deadly" listing for CR and while a player or two will get dropped, there doesn't seem to be any consequence for it, so the players are fairly reckless. That and whack-a-mole for the monsters keeping PC's who do happen to fall, dead.

So last session I throw to Cambions at them CR3, so CR6 total.. High AC for level 3, decent damage output and a couple nasty spells.

PC's manage to Hold Person one of them at the outset. The other banishes a fighter NPC that was going with them (part of the storyline, so that was a good thing) The remaining cambion manages to charm one of the players. This leaves 5 players. Still only one of them was unconscious till the cambion who had charmed one of the players commanded him to kill himself prior to the cambion dying, failed his saving throw, and managed to follow the order quite effectively.

So. After all of that. Part of the problem was the extreme lack of luck of the held cambion, but I've been seeing similar battles... a player or two gets knocked out, a little whack a mole is played, and then the NPCs are defeated.... never really feels dangerous...

I want to challenge my players, not just send them through another combat progression gate.

What effective methods have you used?

[LordEntrails]

Been awhile since I read the rules in the DMG, but I'm pretty sure two creatures at CR3 do not equal CR6.

But, anyway, re-read the 5E definitions of what a deadly encounter is, it doesn't mean TPK, it means a character or two might be knocked down. Which sounds like what is happening.

Also, consider how many of these encounters are they facing before you allow them a long rest? 1 or 2 and it will be no problem for them. I think the standard is 6-8 encounters per adventuring day (per long rest).

5E is a lot about resource attrition, you have to keep having the PC's face numerous dangers, not just one or two. Or you have to go way above the DMG suggestions to threaten a TPK (if that's what you want). Or, have the next encounter appear just after the first is defeated, before the party can even short rest.

[hehaub]

I DM a party of 6 and I found that numbers matter. One creature, even deadly can be easily defeated with poor rolls when it is a 6to1 smashing odds. I put a very powerful mob against the party and they thrashed the heck out of it. A while later in another part of the dungeon they almost TPK to several giant rats.

So instead of 2 powerful mobs, use one and several minion creatures. I have found this is better for balance during an encounter.
Also take a look at P.82 of the DMG - Combat Encounter Difficulty, the CR is not a linear scale, so what you described is not a deadly encounter and you should adjust accordingly

[damned]

One in a while I like to give the party a very challenging encounter that really chews up the partys spells and healing so they still look ok (they are mostly healed but low on spells and healing) and then hit them with a less challenging encounter that will use up the rest of their spells and leave them with medium wounds and then a less challenging encounter again but this once really threatens them because of the earlier attrition.

[Myrdin Potter]

6 players are always smarter than one dm. As a dm, I need to run a bunch of monsters and remember all of their abilities and keep track of everything. My players know their one character cold.

I have been DMing for over 30 years, I scare my group sometimes but they usually pull it off. They are 11th level now, I really need to hammer them hard several times to deplete their resources.

[damned]

6 players are always smarter than one dm. As a dm, I need to run a bunch of monsters and remember all of their abilities and keep track of everything. My players know their one character cold.

I have been DMing for over 30 years, I scare my group sometimes but they usually pull it off. They are 11th level now, I really need to hammer them hard several times to deplete their resources.

Most of my players know the Monster Manual better than me too!

[LordEntrails]

One of my players is a tactical wiz. Without even trying he can predict 5 or 6 rounds ahead, I have to throw in new things to surprise him. Either new guys showing up or changing up the abilities of the creatures (or more often making an ogre look like a troll, or give a bear the stats of a dire bear etc.

Don't bother to play chess with him unless you can change the rules up every turn!

[Zacchaeus]

Cambions are CR5 and two of them would represent a deadly encounter for a party of 6 level 3 characters. (A deadly encounter would be anything with an XP award of 2400 or above). As noted above the thing is not just the one single encounter but the procession of encounters that the party have. One Deadly encounter they will be able to handle, but once they've used up their spell slots and their once a day abilities such encounters become harder; throw enough of them and the PCs will suffer. However as also noted the idea is not really to kill the party but for everyone to have fun.

If you want to add challenge; it isn't always a case of adding more monsters. My group were recently in a dungeon where the air was poisonous and they took 1d6 poison damage every hour. So a long rest was out of the question and even a short rest caused damage. So the environment can be used as an additional hazard; difficult terrain which affects only the PCs is another example of this.

[Gix]

I really appreciate the feedback, gentlemen! I think these are the summary of lessons I'm learning:

1. Drain the PCs throughout their campaign day to the point they can't just counter everything.
2. Remove their ability to focus fire as much by having several smaller targets.
3. Possibly use a reducing difficulty for encounters where they get easier (but still harder because of dwindling resources)

Bonus. Fantasy Grounds forum members are awesome :)

[mardaddy]

Action economy is absolutely the key to the issue...

Get creative to limit the 6-attacks-to-1(or 2) scenario, and you can have challenging/deadly encounters with lower CR enemies. Environment, minions, conditions & effects, all can play a role in the set up. Do not be afraid to add and homebrew abilities or spell lists to toss up the meta-expectations (for those players who have memorized the MM.) So long as you are consistent and fair with it.

[JohnD]

Not being able to take a long rest - wear the party down.

Or, if they take a long rest in a less than secure location, have intelligent foes use that time to formulate an attack plan based off of superior numbers and knowledge of the surrounding area (i.e. perhaps the party gets to fight all 20 orcs on the level at once instead of piecemeal 2-4 at a time - with the orcs knowing all the avenues of attack because they're in their home).

That kind of situation can quickly lead to a TPK, even if the party has the benefit of a long rest, especially if their retreat avenues are cut off (as happened in one of my campaigns not too long ago).

[LordEntrails]

Yea, my groups learn that they can only take a rest in a cave/dungeon/place once. Because after they do it the first time, the enemies are all ready and waiting for them with impromptu traps, barricades and decoys.

(And in return, my last party when doing the castle in LMoP ran through it in a couple of dozens rounds or less, not pausing to allow anyone to prepare for anything. It is still a story they tell *G*)

[Nylanfs]

My favorite is kobolds in their natural lairs, they are small so the PC's usually have to crouch., no two handed swings, everything is rough terrain etc. :)

[Stormhound]

My favorite is kobolds in their natural lairs, they are small so the PC's usually have to crouch., no two handed swings, everything is rough terrain etc. :)

Oh, I just love kobolds. Evolution has selected for a total unwillingness to engage in a fair fight, and they love to give PCs refresher lessons on why you have to be careful fighting something on its home turf... :bandit:

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

By experience, a Deadly encounter is just a encounter where players will have to expend more resources or fall down. doesnt actually mean they might die, specially at higher levels.
The game balance of difficulty is based on the daily encounters rather than individual encounters.
At the end of a deadly day, theyd will always end with almost no resources and one or more might have fallen or even died.

I hope that helps. Read the daily encounter table, and not the individual one, to sucessfully calculate difficulty of that adventure day.

Also, for solo bosses, use always an legendary monster, with can move and make attacks after each players turn, otherwize theyll be surrounded and killed easy unless it is a unfair fight.

[jrh18]

The alternative with a boss is to use 4E minions. Matt Colville has a youtube video on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoELQ7px9ws). They are low CR creatures with one hit point. They make the players with large AoE spells feel powerful and if they hit they do regular damage, so they widdle the PCs down before they get to the boss.

The problem I have had with minions and fantasy grounds so far is that you can end up with way too many NPCs on the combat tracker. Which means they become difficult to move around, and you have to remove them one at a time as they die, etc. Since I ran this face to face and my players don't use FG for combat, there are probably extensions that can help out with the removal process. I vaguely remember an auto remove at the end of turn if dead option somewhere.

[LordEntrails]

Removals never been much of a concern for me. Just the next time the NPC shows up in the list and they are dead I remove them then. Sometimes I use the blood splats extension so the players know who's dead, otherwise they just have to remember.

[Tabarkus]

Another idea is to create “swarms” of minions to reduce the individual number of NPC entries on the Combat Tracker. You can still describe the attack as 50 bandits, but combat resolves and moves better in my opinion. Swarms can be any group of two or more in order to still have “multiple” attackers.

[Nylanfs]

By experience, a Deadly encounter is just a encounter where players will have to expend more resources or fall down. doesnt actually mean they might die, specially at higher levels.
The game balance of difficulty is based on the daily encounters rather than individual encounters.
At the end of a deadly day, theyd will always end with almost no resources and on or more might have fallen.

I hope that helps. Read the daily enc, and not the individual one for difficulty.

Also, for solo bosses, use always an legendary monster, with can move and make attacks after each players turn, otherwize theyll be surrounded and killed easy unless it is a unfair fight.

Welcome to the forums and FG Community Henrique!

[Henrique Oliveira Machado]

Wow, did not expect that. Thank you for welcoming me. You might see me a little bit more in the future.
i am very new to fantasy grounds, and i am here to learn more than to teach, but i have some experience as a DM and i may be of some service in discussions like these.

[Nylanfs]

Everybody should be welcomed upon entering a new space. :)

[LordEntrails]

Besides, Nylanfs knows if he forgets to welcome someone I will give him a dirty look :)