3.5 rules questions

[ghedrain]

I have some questions for the community about how they handle certain instances of combat in regards to the rules in the Player's Handbook 3.5e.

I came across some interesting stuff that appears quite silly to me in the rules. We all know that we can do two things in one combat round. One is a move and the other is a combat action, it doesn't matter if we move first or second. As part of the move action a person can take a 5 foot step which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Any spell cast from a threatened square does provoke an attack of opportunity unless it:
1. Is a quickened spell
2. It is a cast defensively.
This becomes a big problem with casters in regards to touch spells. Consequently a caster may take a 5 foot step away from the monster and then cast the touch spell. (1 round) On the next turn or anytime before another touch spell is cast the caster may take a 5 foot step forward to the moster and then touch them to activate the spell. The act of touching counts as a melee combat action and therefore does not count as an attack of opportunity. (can verify this on p. 140 and 141 of the player's handbook)

Wouldn't it make sense to just set a rule to make all touch spells not cause an attack of opportunity? I think this would simplify combat a bit and speed things up. In this case the cast could count as the combat action and the touch could count as the move action. So no other movement would occur during this round.

The next issue I have is with the way defensive casting works. Instead of a bonus to AC while casting defensively the rules actually say that the player makes a concentration check while defensively casting however they do not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails the spell is lost. (p. 140)

I have to say I don't much care for this rule and I'm wondering if anyone handles defensive casting differently in their campaign.

[kalmarjan]

With touch spells, it is not necessary to cast when you are in a threatened area. The best way to cast a touch spell is out of threatened range, "hold the charge", then move in to make a touch attack. This attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity, because the caster is considered "armed" with the spell.

With the concentration rule, I do like it, because the magic user can cast a spell in a bind if they have nowhere to go. (Perhaps they are surrounded.) The mechanic of make your check or lose the spell reflects this to maintain some form of balance, otherwise you have magic users in the front lines casting spells while dodging monsters swiping at them with their claws. :)

This goes back to strategy. Your players playing a magic casting wizard should not be in the front lines, no matter what. They have a d4 for hitpoints! If the attacker manages to hit, its really going to be painful, no matter what level the wizard is. Think of the Wizard/Sorcerer as an archer. They are good at a distance, but useless when it comes to hand to hand combat. :)

For clerics, same rule applies if they want to cast spells. The priest casting an inflict spell could be away from the fray, letting the fighters do the dirty work, cast his inflict spell, hold the charge, then walk right up to the enemy and give them a real surprise.

I hope this helps you out. Your problem is not really in the rules, it is more in the strategy of playing. :)

Cheers,

Sandeman

[ghedrain]

This goes back to strategy. Your players playing a magic casting wizard should not be in the front lines, no matter what. They have a d4 for hitpoints! If the attacker manages to hit, its really going to be painful, no matter what level the wizard is. Think of the Wizard/Sorcerer as an archer. They are good at a distance, but useless when it comes to hand to hand combat.

Many spells are touch spell so the caster has to move up into the monster's reach in order to complete the spell. I don't think it's really possible for a wizard to stay out of close combat an entire battle unless they memorize only non touch spells.

I also just do not like the way touch spells cause an attack of opportunity. I think it just draws out combat. Because, like i said a person could step, cast, step touch and avoid the attack of opportunity completely. Playing games in FG can get really drawn out during battle sequences. That's why I try to trim down combat a bit while sticking to the D&D rules as much as possible. Would it break combat to have a house rule that states "Touch spells do not provoke an attack of opportunity"?

[John_Geeshu]

Going by the rule book, touch spells should always provoke an AOO. The touch is made with a hand presumably, so in essence it is an unarmed attack. Unless the caster has Improved Unarmed Combat feat, which negates the AOO. The AOO rules don't make a lot of sense, but so it is with most of D&D's combat rules. The best thing you can do is adjust them to fit the demands of the campaign and be prepared to modify your changes if it appears the balance has shifted dramatically. If you have more than one spell caster in your group of PCs and the enemy are going to have spell casters then the rule will effect both groups equally so there's no foreseeable reason it would throw the game out of wack. Besides, there's no harm in my book in tipping the scales a little in favor of the heroes. Afterall it is them against the rest of tyranny.

[richvalle]

I have some questions for the community about how they handle certain instances of combat in regards to the rules in the Player's Handbook 3.5e.

I came across some interesting stuff that appears quite silly to me in the rules. We all know that we can do two things in one combat round. One is a move and the other is a combat action, it doesn't matter if we move first or second. As part of the move action a person can take a 5 foot step which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


This is not quite true. You can move OR take a 5 foot step, not both. And the 'move' is a move equivilent action so you don't actually have to move around.


Any spell cast from a threatened square does provoke an attack of opportunity unless it:
1. Is a quickened spell
2. It is a cast defensively.

This becomes a big problem with casters in regards to touch spells. Consequently a caster may take a 5 foot step away from the monster and then cast the touch spell. (1 round) On the next turn or anytime before another touch spell is cast the caster may take a 5 foot step forward to the moster and then touch them to activate the spell. The act of touching counts as a melee combat action and therefore does not count as an attack of opportunity. (can verify this on p. 140 and 141 of the player's handbook)


Note that you get a touch attack as part of the casting of the touch spell. So if you start away from the target you can cast, move, touch. (I just looked though the SRD real quick and don't see the rule for this. I know I've seen it though.)



Wouldn't it make sense to just set a rule to make all touch spells not cause an attack of opportunity? I think this would simplify combat a bit and speed things up. In this case the cast could count as the combat action and the touch could count as the move action. So no other movement would occur during this round.


Hmmm, no I don't think so. There are two things happining. The casting and the touching. The casting is what causes the AOO. The touch attack does not.

Doing as you say would make touch attacks to powerfull. Touch ac's are already very low. Now you would be letting mages cast them with no hinderances. So if a fighter is standing next to a mage that mage could cast a vampirac touch with no AOO and then try to touch that 10 AC fighter. If I was that fighter I'd be a bit upset that I couldn't do anything about it. At least with the AOO I could try to hit him and distrupt his spell.

Though any mage will be trying to cast Defensively to avoid the whole issue.



The next issue I have is with the way defensive casting works. Instead of a bonus to AC while casting defensively the rules actually say that the player makes a concentration check while defensively casting however they do not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails the spell is lost. (p. 140)

I have to say I don't much care for this rule and I'm wondering if anyone handles defensive casting differently in their campaign.

I agree that this is not a very good rule. Its not the only one... tumble is another. Make a skill check and avoid the AOO.

I know one DM that just chucked the whole Def Casting thing. Every mage in his game maxed out the Concintration skill and soon was at the point that they could cast Def with no problems. Since every mage did this, he just said every mage does it and took it out of his game.

Right now I'm leaving it as is. I think any changes you make to this you should think about making the same sort of changes to Tumble.

rv

[richvalle]

Trying to touch someone with a magical touch attack does NOT cause AOO!

Per SRD:
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

[ghedrain]

This is not quite true. You can move OR take a 5 foot step, not both. And the 'move' is a move equivilent action so you don't actually have to move around.

:D

I think we're trying to say the same exact thing. It's move or 5 foot step. I guess I didn't make myself very clear on that.


Hmmm, no I don't think so. There are two things happining. The casting and the touching. The casting is what causes the AOO. The touch attack does not.

Doing as you say would make touch attacks to powerfull. Touch ac's are already very low. Now you would be letting mages cast them with no hinderances. So if a fighter is standing next to a mage that mage could cast a vampirac touch with no AOO and then try to touch that 10 AC fighter. If I was that fighter I'd be a bit upset that I couldn't do anything about it. At least with the AOO I could try to hit him and distrupt his spell.


If you pull out a copy of the Player's Handbook and read pages 140 and 141 here is what it says regarding touch spells in combat:

"Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch the target. You may take you move before casting the spell, after touchting the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You could automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Since you need only touch your enemy, you make a touch attack instead of a regular attack. Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The touch spell provides you with credible threat that the defender is obliged to take into account just as if it were a weapon. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity, so you may want to cas tthe spell and then move to the target............"

There is more in the book regarding holding the charge and such but I'm not going to repeat it.

So, in essence a wizard that is in a threatened square could take a 5 foot step, cast (1 round) take a 5 foot step and touch (2nd round). This method allows them to completely avoid provoking an attack of opportunity and doesn't require any concentration checks or defensive casting.

[ghedrain]

I think we posted at the same time :D

[richvalle]

So, in essence a wizard that is in a threatened square could take a 5 foot step, cast (1 round) take a 5 foot step and touch (2nd round). This method allows them to completely avoid provoking an attack of opportunity and doesn't require any concentration checks or defensive casting.

But you are assuming the person he is threatened by does nothing between those two rounds.

If he takes a 5 foot step back and casts to avoid an aoo, the person he is avoiding can take a 5 foot step up and get a Full Attack off. For a mid-high level fighter this can be multi-swings.

I guess what he could do though is move back more then 5 feet in one round. Cast touch spell the next and then move up and try to touch. In this case if the person he is avoiding moves up they would only get one attack off at him.

I don't think this is such a bad thing. It makes the mages move around and gives the person's he is fighting a chance to try and trap him in a corner or something. It stops the mages from casting one spell every round too as they move to save their hide from sharp pointy objects!

rv

[richvalle]

I think we posted at the same time :D

We should cordinate our posts better. :)

rv

[Cypher]

In general, touch spells are rarely worth the risk.

Even if you cast out of range of the target, then hold the charge until the next round to move in and touch the target. You've still only cast a single spell in 2 rounds, and left yourself at the mercy of your target after your touch attempt. This could be bad if you either A. miss your touch, B. target makes their save, or C. the effect isn't nasty enough to do some serious damage to your opponent.

If you had spring attack you could make better use of touch spells, but even then you're still only casting one spell every two turns. Usually a better option to just light em up from a distance.

To bypass the restrictions of the touch spell you can invest in:
* Feat: Reach Spell (Complete Divine)
* PrC Archmage: Arcane Reach (DMG)
* PrC Hierophant: Divine Reach (DMG)

That is definately the crunchy solution so you make the call.

[kalmarjan]

You are missing the point of my post here guys.

if by "Completing a touch spell" you mean the act of touching, then this does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You are attacking with this.

The best way to do this is to have the spell caster say, six squares away, cast the spell, then move in and make a touch attack. This allieviates the whole, 5 foot step move back. Note: a touch spell charge can be held for over one round. If the person could not make the move and attack, he could save it for the next round, and make the touch attack.

If you are chancing the AOO for your character to make a touch spell, you are not really playing your character smart. Or, you need to have a lot of buffs to make this happen. (Mage armor, ring of protection, etc...)

Sandeman
Note: Some familiars can deliver the touch spell for you, making this whole issue a moot point. I once had an NPC spell caster use his lowly hopping frog to cast the touch spells on the party...

[ghedrain]

Note: Some familiars can deliver the touch spell for you, making this whole issue a moot point. I once had an NPC spell caster use his lowly hopping frog to cast the touch spells on the party...

that would make me laugh :D

[richvalle]

Or use that mage hand/ghost hand spell to cast touch spells from a distance... while under an improved inviso spell. :)

I've used touch spells as a cleric to cast cure wounds spells on undead.

rv

[kalmarjan]

Also, just thought of something:

Why use a touch spell? They are not worth it? Consider this:

A harm spell is a level 6 spell that deals 10 points of damage per caster level to the creature touched. (Save for half). On a 13th level caster, you are looking at 130 points. To top that off, there is a chance of criticalling with this touch attack! Sinse you only get a size bonus, dex bonus and a deflection bonus to AC, this makes for a pretty straightforward hit. The same number is used to determine the critical success.

If the monster saves for half damage from the above, if the caster scored a critical hit, it would still deal them 130 points of damage. (Or drop the creature down to 1 HP)

All this for a spell that takes a standard action to cast.

If I was the player, knowing that I was going to be going into battle, I would have cast this spell and held the charge until the right time. If I was already in battle, then would be the time to get to higher ground to cast the spell, then wade into the fray armed with this spell.

In no circumstanses would I have this character in the "front lines" engaging the enemy! If one of them scored a lucky hit, well, even with toughness and a good con bonus, and max HP, the character would have around 93 HP.

Two lucky attacks, and kiss the character goodbye.

Sandeman

[Cypher]

Also, just thought of something:

Why use a touch spell? They are not worth it? Consider this:

A harm spell is a level 6 spell that deals 10 points of damage per caster level to the creature touched. (Save for half). On a 13th level caster, you are looking at 130 points. To top that off, there is a chance of criticalling with this touch attack! Sinse you only get a size bonus, dex bonus and a deflection bonus to AC, this makes for a pretty straightforward hit. The same number is used to determine the critical success.

I did say "in general", and your example is citing a cleric spell. Cleric's aren't nearly at the same disadvantage using touch spells as wizards are. Different animal.

If we're talking about offensive Wizard/Sorcerer touch spells, the short list from the PHB include the following (spell level in brackets):

Touch of Fatigue (0), Bestow Curse (4), Ghoul Touch (2), Imprisonment (9), Temporal Stasis (8), Chill Touch (1), Contagion (4).

As you can see, if you are using the core ruleset only, attacking with touch spells isn't something that should cause this much discussion :p

[Stuart]

Lights touch paper ...:p
This sort of thing is what drove me away from trying to role play with D&D many years ago. Though I'm sure you guys are correct and the rules allow a mage to complete a touch spell by using another object/familiar/person etc to complete it ... does it not bother you that this is rule playing rather than role playing ? :(

[Cypher]

Lights touch paper ...:p
This sort of thing is what drove me away from trying to role play with D&D many years ago. Though I'm sure you guys are correct and the rules allow a mage to complete a touch spell by using another object/familiar/person etc to complete it ... does it not bother you that this is rule playing rather than role playing ? :(

Not really :)

Especially since the title of the thread specifically asked a Rules question.

[ghedrain]

I play a cleric so I think the touch thing is a bit more important to the cleric class. I like to try and follow the rules to keep the game fair and because I don't like to be caught doing something stupid because I didn't know a rule about it. However if there is room to wiggle and roleplay I will definately do that.

[Cypher]

I play a cleric so I think the touch thing is a bit more important to the cleric class. I like to try and follow the rules to keep the game fair and because I don't like to be caught doing something stupid because I didn't know a rule about it. However if there is room to wiggle and roleplay I will definately do that.

Ah, well if you're playing a cleric then you have much less to worry about. Keep your AC high, and pump up your Concentration. Soon enough you'll be casting defensively without worrying about AoO's.

[kalmarjan]

I agree.

When you are speaking of being a rules player and not a role player....Think on this:

When I think about the dastardly necromancer powering up his ghoul touch spell to lay waste with a bare touch... or a <shudder> contagian spell... these are the things for great roleplaying.

Players never choose these options because of the fear that they will not get to use them because of attacks of opportunity. I say, nonsense! So what, it is a little harder to play the character, but it sure makes for more fun. The character wouldn't be in the front line? What do you want to play? A fighter or a spellcaster?

Sure, 3.0 and 3.5 opened up the rules for players of arcane character to use swords and armors, but I do still like the characters that hang back and rain death on the foes in front. The most important point in combat should be "get the magic user!", because they are the most damaging. (Like the harm spell above... can you see a fighter doing the same damage as a 20th level cleric with a harm spell? 200 HP? Not without some major forms of magical equipment. Imagine if the spell was criticaled? 400 damage, save for half? Oh... your still alive? With your 1 HP? Tsk.. Tsk...)

Sandeman

[kalmarjan]

Lights touch paper ...
This sort of thing is what drove me away from trying to role play with D&D many years ago. Though I'm sure you guys are correct and the rules allow a mage to complete a touch spell by using another object/familiar/person etc to complete it ... does it not bother you that this is rule playing rather than role playing ?


I see this as a good opportunity to role play. As opposed to taking a feat to make it so you can not have to really touch your opponent to make an attack, you use another creature. I look at it like this.

In fantasy, there is always some reference to the evil bad guy using creatures as their eys and ears. Think about rats in RJ's world, or Ravens in the game of thrones. It seems like a cool opportunity to have your spellcaster send out the critter to deliver the attack, and gives them something to be cool for, as opposed to just getting a benefit (like extra HP) for having a familiar.

Seem logical?

sandeman

[Cypher]

(Like the harm spell above... can you see a fighter doing the same damage as a 20th level cleric with a harm spell? 200 HP? Not without some major forms of magical equipment. Imagine if the spell was criticaled? 400 damage, save for half? Oh... your still alive? With your 1 HP? Tsk.. Tsk...)

Sandeman

Harm does a maximum of 150 points of damage, save for half. Not quite as powerful as you may think :)

[kalmarjan]

Oops, you are right...

OTOH, Harm can be subject to a critical effect, so the amount ramps up to 300 HP, save for half. :)

Still not very bad in my books. :)

Sandeman

[Cypher]

Oops, you are right...

OTOH, Harm can be subject to a critical effect, so the amount ramps up to 300 HP, save for half. :)

Still not very bad in my books. :)

Sandeman

Aye, it's still a big hit.

Just taking a look at the offensive touch spells for clerics, and their short list (assuming Core only) is (level in brackets):

Bestow Curse (3), Contagion (3), Cure Spells (0, 1, 2, 3), Death Knell (2), Harm (6), Inflict Spells (0, 1, 2, 3), Poison (4).

Not a whole lot to choose from.

The ones I missed earlier from the Wizard list were any that save for half damage rather than full negate, so you can add the following to that list:

Blight (5)

[kalmarjan]

Right. Add in the BOVD spells, and you have some wicked touch ones there. (Touch of Madness anyone?? LOL)

Sandeman

[Callum]

But you are assuming the person he is threatened by does nothing between those two rounds.

If he takes a 5 foot step back and casts to avoid an aoo, the person he is avoiding can take a 5 foot step up and get a Full Attack off. For a mid-high level fighter this can be multi-swings.

The (potential) target could also ready an action to attack the spellcaster when they come in range.

The 5-foot step ploy won't work so well with monsters that have reach.

Finally, don't forget that if the PCs can do it, then NPCs can, too!

[kalmarjan]

Again, this is why it is important to have your spellcasting characters stay in the background while casting.

Also, just because the target has readied an action when the spellcaster comes in range, this will not really help them with the whole AOO, because the spell is already cast. The player would be holding a charge to make a touch attack. (And the player is considered "armed" with the spell.) So the fighter may get a standard action (read: one swing), and if he does not down the spell caster, there is no point.

OTOH, if you are playing a spellcasting character, and releying on the 5 foot step rule to keep them safe, you are not really playing it safe, are you? LOL

Like the previous poster said, a fighter with multiple swings can do some real damage to a spellcasting character. (Forget the fighter, how about an invisable rogue?)

Some may say this is not really fair. I think it is. Some spells have the potential to do a massive amount of damage, or incapacitate or even kill the targets. Having a way to overcome this is essential to a fun game.

If you are looking at making it so the AOO does not occur with touch attacks, then as a player, I would be worried about death attacks that are touch based. (I cannot quote one right now, as it is in another accessory for the game.)

Sandeman