Question about Instrument of the Bards (Doss Lute)

[Baron28]

Description Below:

Spell List

Fly
Invisibility
Levitate
Protection from Evil and Good
Animal Friendship
Protection from Energy (fire only)
Protection from Poison

An instrument of the bards is an exquisite example of its kind, superior to an ordinary instrument in every way. A creature that attempts to play the instrument without being attuned to it must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or take 2d4 psychic damage.

You can use an action to play the instrument and cast one of its spells. Once the instrument has been used to cast a spell, it can't be used to cast that spell again until the next dawn. The spells use your spellcasting ability and spell save DC.

When you use the instrument to cast a spell that causes targets to become charmed on a failed save, the targets have disadvantage on the saving throw. This effect applies whether you are using the instrument as the source of the spell or as a spellcasting focus.

Background: I have a player who has been casting hypnotic pattern using this instrument because the target would roll at disadvantage because the spell causes the target to become charmed on a failed save. This combination of spell and magic weapon is over powered IMHO. Also, I think the player is misusing the magic weapon by casting hypnotic pattern with it because hypnotic pattern is not on the list of spells that the magic item can cast as indicated in the magic item's description.

Question: What is the correct adjudication here? Is the magic item limited to the spells in the item's description or can the bard cast any spell on his spell list with the item?

[Zacchaeus]

I assume that his argument is that he is not casting Hypnotic Pattern out of the instrument but is using the instrument as his spell focus, in which case doing so does give the target disadvantage against the saving throw.

[jasonthelamb]

Description Below:

Spell List

Fly
Invisibility
Levitate
Protection from Evil and Good
Animal Friendship
Protection from Energy (fire only)
Protection from Poison


When you use the instrument to cast a spell that causes targets to become charmed on a failed save, the targets have disadvantage on the saving throw. This effect applies whether you are using the instrument as the source of the spell or as a spellcasting focus.

Background: I have a player who has been casting hypnotic pattern using this instrument because the target would roll at disadvantage because the spell causes the target to become charmed on a failed save. This combination of spell and magic weapon is over powered IMHO. Also, I think the player is misusing the magic weapon by casting hypnotic pattern with it because hypnotic pattern is not on the list of spells that the magic item can cast as indicated in the magic item's description.

Question: What is the correct adjudication here? Is the magic item limited to the spells in the item's description or can the bard cast any spell on his spell list with the item?

If you look at the spell list, none of them give the "charmed" condition, which would then make the ability make zero sense. As Zacchaeus said, if the player is using the instrument as a spellcasting focus, then they are doing it correctly.

[Baron28]

That is his position and as such, I have allowed it. The combination of using that magic item to cast hypnotic pattern is way over powered. First, the spell has a range of 120 feet and its AOE is a 30' cube. Not many creatures have high wisdom ability scores to begin with and then you impose disadvantage, it becomes difficult for a single boss creature, and a few lieutenants, to defend against it, unless...

1. The creature(s) has Legendary Resistance.
2. The creature is close enough to counterspell, but the 120 feet range typically makes this mute.
3. The creature(s) have advantage on saving throws against spells to cancel out the disadvantage.
4. You have a gaggle of spell casting creatures that have dispel magic. The chances of at least one creature making the save increase. Then you can start a chain of dispelling hypnotic pattern when it's the creature's turn who saved in the current or next round.

I would like to see this spell work like sleep, but since it's a 3rd level spell the caster would roll more dice to impact the creature(s) potentially affected.

[Baron28]

Jason, it would seem so. IMHO, the combination of this magic item and spell are OP.

[LordEntrails]

What level is the character and what's the rarity of this item?

IMO, things like this are only OP when allowed to be obtained by characters of too low of a level.

[Zacchaeus]

It's an Uncommon item so it would be available pretty much any time if you are strictly following the guidelines in the DMG.

I don't see Hypnotic Pattern as being that overpowered. First the spellcaster needs to maintain concentration so obviously they should be the focus of the NPCs attacks. Secondly whilst the target is incapacitated the spell ends as soon as they take damage, so it has a finite longevity. It's an excellent crowd control spell and it sounds like your player is doing just that, and for me that's first class tactics.

[damned]

I have a Halfling Bard who has one of these.
Using Hypnotic Pattern to turn a situation from impending violence to a stunningly successful parley was effective, enjoyable, good story and not game breaking.
Using it against a boss... at some point you are still going to have to fight/kill the boss - she will not be parleyed out of the story and attacking her is going to alter the balance again.

[Keravath]

You can use an Instrument of the Bards to obtain disadvantage on charm saves if it is used the spell focus but this only applies to charm spells that require a material component. Unfortunately, this means the ONLY spells it works for are Animal Friendship and Hypnotic Pattern. Personally, I don't agree with that ruling since to me it does not make sense given the lore and nature of the instruments but that is what Jeremy Crawford has said.

However, I don't think Hypnotic Pattern is NOT as OP as people seem to think. Out of all the charm spells hypnotic pattern is the only one where a character can be broken from the charmed state by using the action of another creature. In fact, that is the only way to break the charm effect before the charm ends.

If the DM puts all of the opponents into a 30' cube knowing that the PC's have Hypnotic Pattern then the fault lies with the DM. If the creatures are spaced 10' apart (which might be a good idea if the PC's have fireball or other area of effect spells anyway) then the spell is only going to get 3 or 4. The other opponents then use their action to run in and wake up the boss and his minions. The spell is an action sink. Most of the other spells with a lasting duration allow a saving throw every turn while this spell requires an action by the opponents but is then ineffective. The action sink can be extremely effective given how few rounds a typical D&D 5e combat can take but in the end the effectiveness comes down to the number of opponents, their spacing and the initiative order.

In addition, any damage will also wake up the creatures. So depending on the type of creatures a 1st level thunderwave spell properly placed would cause 2d8 damage but could wake them up all at once at the cost of only one action.

The other alternative is to pile on the caster and break concentration.

[Baron28]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. In case you were curious, I allowed the player to use the instrument to cast Hypnotic Pattern as written. I stand by my opinion as noted in post #4.

Keravath, you make an interesting point in your comment which I would like to address.

"If the DM puts all of the opponents into a 30' cube knowing that the PC's have Hypnotic Pattern then the fault lies with the DM."

My rebuttal...Would the creatures know that the PC's have this power? I suppose it depends on the situation. Are these creatures familiar with the party? Has a creature escaped from a previous encounter where the a party member cast Hypnotic Pattern to educate his fellow kin about such power? The answers to those questions dictate whether or not the creatures are smart enough and in some instances the creature by design is never going to be smart enough to know the party has this power. A example of such a creature would be anything with an intelligence of under 6.

My point here is I appreciate the tactical advice, but there is no fault with the DM as long as the DM is role playing the creatures and not meta-gaming the party.

[Nylanfs]

Welcome to the forums and FG Community Keravath!

[Keravath]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. In case you were curious, I allowed the player to use the instrument to cast Hypnotic Pattern as written. I stand by my opinion as noted in post #4.

Keravath, you make an interesting point in your comment which I would like to address.

"If the DM puts all of the opponents into a 30' cube knowing that the PC's have Hypnotic Pattern then the fault lies with the DM."

My rebuttal...Would the creatures know that the PC's have this power? I suppose it depends on the situation. Are these creatures familiar with the party? Has a creature escaped from a previous encounter where the a party member cast Hypnotic Pattern to educate his fellow kin about such power? The answers to those questions dictate whether or not the creatures are smart enough and in some instances the creature by design is never going to be smart enough to know the party has this power. A example of such a creature would be anything with an intelligence of under 6.

My point here is I appreciate the tactical advice, but there is no fault with the DM as long as the DM is role playing the creatures and not meta-gaming the party.


I agree :)

.. but DMing is a balance. Against intelligent creatures of sufficient level to ba a challenge to a party of level 5 or above, the odds are good that the opponents will have seen or heard of area of effect spells like fireball so that their leaders might encourage them not to group up too much. If the challenge is a horde of lower level creatures then the odds are good that they might naturally spread out.

Low intelligence creatures wouldn’t know better but they also might not naturally clump together .. they might run out at different times or be spaced randomly. These decisions are up to the DM based on the logic of the situation and what will create the most enjoyable encounter for the players.

Finally, to me, the real role playing element arrives when the opponents see their friends standing mesmerized. Would they naturally run over to wake them up? Would they think that was a waste of time and they should just attack? How much knowledge is required on the part of the opponents to form an effective response to the spell effect? This is the fun part of DMing .. creating a fun and logically consistent response to the actions of the characters. However, the DM can logically and consistently set the scene to usually produce the desired result .. which in this case is to make hypnotic pattern fun, useful but not so much that it trivializes too many encounters.