How many magic missiles do you have at 4th level?

[Nihthawk]

This came up in the game last night. The spell description says that at first level you have three magic missiles each doing 1d4 damage. For each level above 1st - now I'am 4th - you can cast an additional magic missile does this allow me to cast 6d4? I know in the 3.5 edition rules you gain an extra magic missile every 2 levels above first up to 9th I think. This is confusing me for some reason. :confused:

[damned]

Spells in 5e work differently.
You can cast the spell using a higher level spell slot and then you gain the extra MMs.
So using a level 2 spell slot lets you send 4 MMs.

[Trenloe]

Moved to the 5E thread as this is a 5E specific question.

Everyone who read this: please remember to post system specific questions in the relevant sub-forum. It gives you a more accurate answer and doesn't waste time with people wondering what system you're talking about or giving answers for a different system or reading your post if they're really not interested in that RPG system. Thanks.

[Nickademus]

D&D 5E doesn't actually have a 'caster level', so almost always when a spell or ability references the level you cast it at, it is referring to the effective spell level (based on the spell slot used to cast it).

[Nihthawk]

In Fantasy Grounds it does not let you put it into a higher level slot, it still goes into 1st level. How can this be tweaked?

[Zacchaeus]

Each magic missile is a separate attack so you don't get 6d4 you get 6 missiles each doing 1d4 damage. Not all of the missiles need to be targeted at the same enemy.

For spells which have more damage at a higher level (other than cantrips which you would just manually increase the damage at the appropriate level) you have two choices. Either create a new line in each spell which can be cast at higher levels and edit the damage to be correct for that level. Or you can leave it at just the base level and when you do damage instead of just double clicking to do the damage click on the damage and hold and drag. Once the dice pop up you can right click to add more dice and once you have the correct number drop it on the target either on the CT or on the token on the map.

So, for example if you did want to cast all of your magic missiles at one target and your DM was happy for you to do them all at once grab the damage, hold and drag and the d4 will pop up on your mouse pointer. Now right click 5 times to add the additional missile damage and then drop on the target.

[Nihthawk]

So if your character is level 4 and you can cast up to your 2nd level spell slot you would have 4 magic missiles, three at first and an extra one at second. I would assume this would also use up a spell slot at that level if you were to place it there.

[Zacchaeus]

Yes. If you cast MM using a 1st level slot you get three missiles and use a 1st level slot; if you use a 2nd level slot then you have 4 missiles and you use the 2nd level slot.

[Nihthawk]

thanks.

[Caelen]

Each magic missile is a separate attack so you don't get 6d4 you get 6 missiles each doing 1d4 damage. Not all of the missiles need to be targeted at the same enemy.
...
So, for example if you did want to cast all of your magic missiles at one target and your DM was happy for you to do them all at once grab the damage, hold and drag and the d4 will pop up on your mouse pointer. Now right click 5 times to add the additional missile damage and then drop on the target.

Magic Missile is actually the one spell this doesn't quite work for. Each missile does 1d4+1 damage, so you also have to apply a modifier (by default the box at the lower left corner of FG) equal to the number of extra missiles you're going to add to that target before click-dragging and right clicking. For example, if you are going to strike one target with all three missiles from a 1st level Magic Missile, you would set the modifier to 2 22320, click and drag the damage roll from the spell effects, right click twice 22321, and then drop the roll on your target. This will give you a total of 3d4+3. 22322

[Zacchaeus]

Ah, yes. I forgot about the +1. The easiest thing then with MM would be to just click the damage equal to the number of missiles.

[Nihthawk]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm confusing 5E rules with 3.5.

[lostsanityreturned]

An even simpler and easier method than people are saying here for casting multiple missiles.

Target your foe in the combat tracker, (ctrl click their portrait) then just click the magic missile spell damage as many times as you have missiles.
(remember to ctrl click their portrait again to deselect the target) This is the fastest method in practice.

Anything where you combine the damage together ignores a major draw of magic missile, the value being that each separate missile hit triggers a concentration saving throw.

[rhammer2]

An even simpler and easier method than people are saying here for casting multiple missiles.

Target your foe in the combat tracker, (ctrl click their portrait) then just click the magic missile spell damage as many times as you have missiles.
(remember to ctrl click their portrait again to deselect the target) This is the fastest method in practice.

Anything where you combine the damage together ignores a major draw of magic missile, the value being that each separate missile hit triggers a concentration saving throw.

Actually it doesn't. All the missiles hit at the same time, so it is just one damage pool to roll against.

- Robert

[damned]

Actually it doesn't. All the missiles hit at the same time, so it is just one damage pool to roll against.

- Robert

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/716012166101401600

[lostsanityreturned]

Actually it doesn't. All the missiles hit at the same time, so it is just one damage pool to roll against.

- Robert

As the other person says, it is per source and has already been confirmed in Sage Advice that each magic missile counts for a separate save. It is a major benefit of the spell.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/

[Zacchaeus]

There's no saving throw against magic missile so the point is moot. Additionally all of the missiles don't need to be directed at the same target.

[lostsanityreturned]

There's no saving throw against magic missile so the point is moot. Additionally all of the missiles don't need to be directed at the same target.

We are talking about individual missiles triggering separate concentration saves.
This won't happen in FG if the damage is lumped together into one package.

[damned]

We are talking about individual missiles triggering separate concentration saves.
This won't happen in FG if the damage is lumped together into one package.

Typically they are set up as individual damage rolls because you might target one missile at each of several targets etc.

Edit:
Im confused.
Have you switched point of view or Im missing something?

[Nickademus]

You may be. They are now talking about Constitution saves to keep concentrating on another spell. Each missile in a casting of magic missile forces a Constitution save, rather than all the missile damage lumped together into a single save with a higher DC.

[rhammer2]

I'm afraid that I would never agree to that ruling. It is a first level spell and all the damage is simultaneous.

- Robert

[LordEntrails]

I'm afraid that I would never agree to that ruling. It is a first level spell and all the damage is simultaneous.

- Robert
So if someone fires two arrows the damage is simultaneous?

[lostsanityreturned]

I'm afraid that I would never agree to that ruling. It is a first level spell and all the damage is simultaneous.

- Robert

Is cool, people can homebrew / nerf whatever they want in the game. It is still worth noting for those who play the game RAW/RAI though.

I do wonder though, do you keep this consistent across all attacks in the game? like if a fighter hit 3 times it would be one save? Or eldritch blast / scorching ray.
And in that case do you also nerf hunters mark / hex and similar buff spells so that they only apply once?
Or are you only applying it this way because it is an auto hit spell (something I would say is countered by it only being 1d4+1 per missile and being fully countered by shield)

Something to keep in mind, magic missile becomes mighty weak when it comes to triggering concentration saves if you nerf it in this manner. Mathematically you need to cast it in a level 5 slot to be able to reliably increase the concentration save DC to 12 (with a max of 17 if they get 4's on all 7 of the dice).

Still, as I said originally people run all sorts of homebrew content and rules.

[Zacchaeus]

I think it is the word simultaneously that is the problem. A fighter doesn't hit three times simultaneously, nor does eldritch blast or scorching ray. The others you mention just add to damage rather than being separate attacks.

I've never used Magic Missile as a sort of big hit by combining the missiles in one clump, and I agree that you would need extraordinary bad luck to fail a concentration check by getting hit with 5 or less points of damage. Combining them however does skew things considerable making the potential saving throw much higher than I think is intended.

[Nickademus]

Actually, it's about average luck to fail a concentration check against 1 point of damage since the DC of the Con save is at least 10 for any concentration check due to damage.

[Zacchaeus]

Actually, it's about average luck to fail a concentration check against 1 point of damage since the DC of the Con save is at least 10 for any concentration check due to damage.

Ah, yes. So it is.

[rhammer2]

I think it is the word simultaneously that is the problem. A fighter doesn't hit three times simultaneously, nor does eldritch blast or scorching ray. The others you mention just add to damage rather than being separate attacks.

I've never used Magic Missile as a sort of big hit by combining the missiles in one clump, and I agree that you would need extraordinary bad luck to fail a concentration check by getting hit with 5 or less points of damage. Combining them however does skew things considerable making the potential saving throw much higher than I think is intended.

Correct, when there is a separate attack roll, the attacks are separate.

- Robert

[Nihthawk]

I have found another way to do it you can Right Click on the Damage Button select Add Action then select Add Damage and then you have setup the different damage types for the spell.
So I have three different damage types setup: 1d4 + 1 ^ 2d4 + 2 ^ 3d4 + 3.

[Zacchaeus]

I have found another way to do it you can Right Click on the Damage Button select Add Action then select Add Damage and then you have setup the different damage types for the spell.
So I have three different damage types setup: 1d4 + 1 ^ 2d4 + 2 ^ 3d4 + 3.

I think the point of the discussion is that this is the incorrect way to do it. Each missile is a separate attack so you would only have one damage string with 1d4+1 and apply this three (or more) times to the target.

[JohnD]

That approach also just adds dice, not modifiers so you end up with 2d4+1 instead of +2 etc....

[Nihthawk]

I have each of the damage types set up independently from each.
22613

[LordEntrails]

I have each of the damage types set up independently from each.

Mr Z's and JohnD's point is that by doing what you have done, only a single concentration roll will be made. RAW says that separate rolls should be made for each missile that hits, rather than one (at potentially a higher DC).

Of course, every DM can run their game the way they want, but if your DM doesn't want a single roll, then doing this is taking away an advantage you have if you use it by rolling damage dice separately.