Feature request discussion: Improving in-app help [Archive]

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ECDMuppet

February 13th, 2018, 20:03

Greetings!

I've been having a good discussion in another thread, and I thought I would move that discussion over to a new thread to avoid hijacking and start this discussion fresh.

So I'm a new user, freshly returning to tabletop after decades away from the genre.

Since the last DnD books I owned were 2E, and my group of friends playing the game is scattered, I decided to look into VTT software. After a short look at D20, I decided that Fantasy Grounds had a much nicer feel to it, and seemed to be more feature packed.

Naturally this is a big learning curve, even for someone with a wealth of current knowledge about tabletop. So I wanted to share some of my perspectives as a new user, returning tabletop player, and an engineer in my day job who deals with a lot of complex systems.

So The biggest feedback I get from some of my old tabletop friends, is that they don't want to pick up VTT because they are clunky and hard to learn, and tend to "get in the way" of the role-playing experience rather than enhance it because of the learning curve. Based on the short experience with the software I've had so far, I can see where that conclusion comes from.

Fantasy Grounds actually has a pretty good help system, especially when you factor in all the amazing content out there in the user community. So far I've had no trouble not only finding the information I've been looking for, but learning where to go next through the help of the excellent folks on this forum.

I think the only thing that's slowing me down, is the time it takes to access information. The manuals are searchable and that's great, but it takes some skill to navigate and you have to surf for information about specific features, Windows and tools. Even as adequate as this is, the criticism stands that its a bit clunky.

I've learned from my discussions here that the dev team is currently engaged in a rework of the interface. As an engineer in in my day job who has designed interfaces for industrial systems, and also worked at software companies supporting similarly complex toolsuites (3d CAD to be precise), I know that rebuulds like this are a good time to add features that may not have been possible during an incremental update.

In that vein, I have a suggestion that I believe would streamline the process of accessing the documentation, that would be easy(ish, probably) to implement in the current build cycle, to make the transition from pen and paper to Fantasy Grounds more seamless.

The general idea is somewhat like a tool tip. I've seen it implemented in a few different ways in various development environments I've worked with, but the general idea is to create a method by which the documentation for any tool, feature or window can be accessed directly from the feature it's self on demand.

Some systems use standard tool tips, but add a function where hitting "F1" will being up the full help page for that tool tip. Other implementations have a help button on each different tool window that brings up the help page for that window, with explanations for each feature and option. Basically, the idea is whenever a user asks themselves, "How does this feature work?", the answer is as easy as hitting a hot key or clicking the question mark.

Virtual Tabletop software lives in a world with unique challenges, especially for software as versatile and feature packed as Fantasy Grounds. Your target audience already has a workflow established for their own pen and paper experience, and you have the unenviable task of helping them generate that work flow in an online medium, while helping the users streamline processes like rolling rules that are already immensely complex. Based on my experience as a new user, the only thing missing that would eliminate almost all of the hassle from that process, would be a more intuitive way to access the documentation for each of the features in the interface. Direct links to specific feature help pages, and also perhaps even links to some of the fantastic tutorials we have out there, likewise tailored specifically to each individual feature or tool, would not only make Fantasy Grounds easy for GM's and experienced players to adapt their own campaigns to, it could make the interface even more intuitive and easy to learn than the tabletop games themselves. Instead of being an option that players resign themselves to because long distance gives them no choice, it could draw an entirely new demographic into gaming by making the whole process it's self all about the world building and role play, leaving the dice calculations and rule handling to the automated systems.

I'm not sure how active the devs are on these forums, but I'd be interested in joining any bug reporting or beta testing groups for this latest build. I think as both an experienced tester and interface designer, and a new user to VTT software, I may have a useful perspective. I plan on getting back into tabletop as a genre now with VTT as my primary method of play, and I see a huge potential for Fantasy Grounds to be my go-to, even for in-person campaigns. Let me know how I can help the community.

Best regards,

Zacchaeus

February 13th, 2018, 20:25

If you click on the query at the top right of any window in FG it will take you to the help section for that window.

LordEntrails

February 13th, 2018, 20:25

Thanks for moving this into a new thread. Good call.

Two things,
- their is already a public beta test program. See here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?9966-Welcome-to-public-testing!
- The official and preferred wishlist is here; https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/
(Note, that's just for voting and tracking, not discussions. And though the most popular items have been there a long time, change the sort to see the newer stuff.)

Also, do be aware that the Devs are active on the forums. They often don't chime in, but I'm sure they are aware of the discussions and will comment when they have something beneficial to add or if someone makes an incorrect statement.

ECDMuppet

February 13th, 2018, 20:54

If you click on the query at the top right of any window in FG it will take you to the help section for that window.

Wow! If that feature is fleshed out, then my prayers were answered before they were spoken. Thanks for that.

I'll have to check it out when I get back to my PC at hone tonight. When I was playing with it last night, I had been sort of lost in the interface, and having a conversation with two people over Skype at the same time. I probably just missed it.

I do have some friends who are hesitant to transition to VTT because they say the interfaces are cumbersome. Perhaps I'll be able to answer those objections by showing what FG already has to mitigate that. Thanks again for the info.

ECDMuppet

February 13th, 2018, 21:15

damned

February 13th, 2018, 23:06

ECDMuppet

February 13th, 2018, 23:13

The ? buttons in 5e are better fleshed out than those in Pathfinder which is what ECDMuppet is likely to use.

If a couple of people familiar with Pathfinder on FG had the availability to write better/fuller content for those ? buttons Im sure SmiteWorks would update the ingame links...
I dont use Pathfinder and hav too many other things going on to help on this project but it is one I think would be worthwhile...

This. Using Pathfinder so I didn't notice many buttons.

Question: does the licensed add-on content for the core rule booknadd anything to this or is it all in the base rules system? I'll likely be adding the paid content as long as this ends up being my go to environment.

damned

February 13th, 2018, 23:24

This. Using Pathfinder so I didn't notice many buttons.

Question: does the licensed add-on content for the core rule booknadd anything to this or is it all in the base rules system? I'll likely be adding the paid content as long as this ends up being my go to environment.

I dont believe that the add-on content adds more contextual help.
The actual physical ruleset is the same with the free/included version as when you buy the CoreRuleBook.
The CoreRuleBook contains a wealth of information in FG format + plus a funky skin/theme - but doesnt (Im pretty sure) improve the contextual help.

damned

February 13th, 2018, 23:28

This. Using Pathfinder so I didn't notice many buttons.

Question: does the licensed add-on content for the core rule booknadd anything to this or is it all in the base rules system? I'll likely be adding the paid content as long as this ends up being my go to environment.

The other thing is there are not contextual ? buttons littered all over things like the character sheet.
Firstly there isnt physical room for dozens and dozens of buttons.
Mostly the contextual help is for the Campaign Tools.

ECDMuppet

February 13th, 2018, 23:39

I'll have to take a closer look tonight once I get back to my computer. I'm sure I just missed a lot of it. And being newly returned it's been tough to put 2 and 2 together anyway. I'm actually pretty impressed with how it all works from what I can tell so far. Once I learn more I'll have more insight about how the learning curve can be streamlined as well.

JohnD

February 13th, 2018, 23:47

I do have some friends who are hesitant to transition to VTT because they say the interfaces are cumbersome. Perhaps I'll be able to answer those objections by showing what FG already has to mitigate that. Thanks again for the info.

I keep hearing how difficult FG is to learn how to use. I have to think that some people aren't really all that interested in putting in the time needed to line themselves up for limitless hours of gaming goodness for years to come.

I recently started three new campaigns with a total of 26 players. Of those 26, fully 18 were people who were a) new to the ruleset I'm using, and b) completely new to FG as a software program.

Each of these people needed between 75 and 90 minutes of one-on-one time to be walked through how to create their character and then a highly contrived demo of:

- how to access what you need on your character sheet
- how to access the books, modules, etc... that the DM has shared out to players
- how to perform ability checks
- how to perform saving throws
- the difference between an open roll and being asked to use the Dice Tower
- how to make a skill check
- how to roll initiative
- how to cast spells (if applicable)
- how to add/subtract ad hoc modifiers to specific rolls as directed by the DM
- how to access, apply and use effects
- how, why and when to use the Party Sheet
- how to distribute treasure to/from your character via the Party Sheet
- how to move around a shared map both in and out of combat (with and without tokens being locked)
- how to resolve combat via a 2-4 round mock encounter with your completed character and a random meat puppet

By the end of the above, people completely new to FG know in excess of 80%, probably about 85% of what they need to know to participate in a game as a Player. Put them through two or three actual live game sessions and that increases to 90%+. Plus, any times after the above, people might have an idea of how to do whatever they're trying, but just can't remember where it is in FG or on their character sheet... they don't need more than one or two reminders to add the functionality to their knowledge base.

Its a bit of a fallacy IMO that everyone playing needs to know how to do everything. In my experience when I was starting out with FG, as long as someone playing knows how to get FG to accomplish whatever it is you're trying to do, that information gets passed along to the whole group organically and naturally through regular play. There's also nothing that mandates that you need to make use of 100% of FG's functionality from the start of session 1. Sure, it's great if you can manage it, but focus on starting with what you know, and look to add some extra functionality/feature every few game sessions... build your foundation and the add to it.

Now, it obviously helps tremendously if the person DMing has a passable functionality with FG. But even that isn't strictly speaking a game breaker.

When I started ~ 6 years ago with FG, I was coming off of around 12 years of running online games using NWN and NWN2. I gave those up because the time requirements for building content were simply prohibitive. I hadn't run a face-to-face pen/paper game for probably 15 years at that point. I had however, been gaming and DMing since 1979 or so; a rock solid base of experience to draw on.

I watched a few videos, observed a couple of games thanks to some kind players and their GM. I participated in a couple of games. I then sat down with FG on one monitor and one of the "how to" movies on another monitor. I walked myself through creating a short adventure, stopping the video when something new was completed, and then mimicked what the video showed me in FG. Sure I had to go back and watch a few parts more than once, but... no big deal.

I then put up a game in the calendar and was completely open that, while I had 3 decades of DM experience under my belt, I had no FG experience. To my surprise I quickly had five players. And it was off to gaming. Prior to the first session I watched videos on DMing in FG. I connected to myself via 'localhost' to see things from the player perspective as well (a big plus to know what your players are seeing and whether or not that matches what you wanted them to see). Walked myself through a few combats. The first couple of sessions were, well, they weren't smooth from my perspective, but session two went a hell of a lot smoother than one, and three went even better. One of those five players still plays in my games six years later.

Now, with players new to the ruleset I use and new to FG itself, after the interactive demo/introduction I do, I tell them to not worry about how to do something in the software. Just play your character... tell me (the DM) and your fellow players what it is you want to try and do; I'll provide gentle reminders of how to accomplish that if you seem at a loss. Everyone learns by listening to my instructions, following along themselves even though they aren't the ones making whatever attempt it is I'm discussing. The underlying methodology remains largely the same with FG.

With complete honesty, the above approach works and it isn't as onerous as some appear to make it out to be.

ECDMuppet

February 14th, 2018, 00:55

I keep hearing how difficult FG is to learn how to use. I have to think that some people aren't really all that interested in putting in the time needed to line themselves up for limitless hours of gaming goodness for years to come.

I recently started three new campaigns with a total of 26 players. Of those 26, fully 18 were people who were a) new to the ruleset I'm using, and b) completely new to FG as a software program.

Each of these people needed between 75 and 90 minutes of one-on-one time to be walked through how to create their character and then a highly contrived demo of:

- how to access what you need on your character sheet
- how to access the books, modules, etc... that the DM has shared out to players
- how to perform ability checks
- how to perform saving throws
- the difference between an open roll and being asked to use the Dice Tower
- how to make a skill check
- how to roll initiative
- how to cast spells (if applicable)
- how to add/subtract ad hoc modifiers to specific rolls as directed by the DM
- how to access, apply and use effects
- how, why and when to use the Party Sheet
- how to distribute treasure to/from your character via the Party Sheet
- how to move around a shared map both in and out of combat (with and without tokens being locked)
- how to resolve combat via a 2-4 round mock encounter with your completed character and a random meat puppet

By the end of the above, people completely new to FG know in excess of 80%, probably about 85% of what they need to know to participate in a game as a Player. Put them through two or three actual live game sessions and that increases to 90%+. Plus, any times after the above, people might have an idea of how to do whatever they're trying, but just can't remember where it is in FG or on their character sheet... they don't need more than one or two reminders to add the functionality to their knowledge base.

Its a bit of a fallacy IMO that everyone playing needs to know how to do everything. In my experience when I was starting out with FG, as long as someone playing knows how to get FG to accomplish whatever it is you're trying to do, that information gets passed along to the whole group organically and naturally through regular play. There's also nothing that mandates that you need to make use of 100% of FG's functionality from the start of session 1. Sure, it's great if you can manage it, but focus on starting with what you know, and look to add some extra functionality/feature every few game sessions... build your foundation and the add to it.

Now, it obviously helps tremendously if the person DMing has a passable functionality with FG. But even that isn't strictly speaking a game breaker.

When I started ~ 6 years ago with FG, I was coming off of around 12 years of running online games using NWN and NWN2. I gave those up because the time requirements for building content were simply prohibitive. I hadn't run a face-to-face pen/paper game for probably 15 years at that point. I had however, been gaming and DMing since 1979 or so; a rock solid base of experience to draw on.

I watched a few videos, observed a couple of games thanks to some kind players and their GM. I participated in a couple of games. I then sat down with FG on one monitor and one of the "how to" movies on another monitor. I walked myself through creating a short adventure, stopping the video when something new was completed, and then mimicked what the video showed me in FG. Sure I had to go back and watch a few parts more than once, but... no big deal.

I then put up a game in the calendar and was completely open that, while I had 3 decades of DM experience under my belt, I had no FG experience. To my surprise I quickly had five players. And it was off to gaming. Prior to the first session I watched videos on DMing in FG. I connected to myself via 'localhost' to see things from the player perspective as well (a big plus to know what your players are seeing and whether or not that matches what you wanted them to see). Walked myself through a few combats. The first couple of sessions were, well, they weren't smooth from my perspective, but session two went a hell of a lot smoother than one, and three went even better. One of those five players still plays in my games six years later.

Now, with players new to the ruleset I use and new to FG itself, after the interactive demo/introduction I do, I tell them to not worry about how to do something in the software. Just play your character... tell me (the DM) and your fellow players what it is you want to try and do; I'll provide gentle reminders of how to accomplish that if you seem at a loss. Everyone learns by listening to my instructions, following along themselves even though they aren't the ones making whatever attempt it is I'm discussing. The underlying methodology remains largely the same with FG.

With complete honesty, the above approach works and it isn't as onerous as some appear to make it out to be.

This is a fantastic explanation! Your story sounds a lot like what I'm going through.

A big part of my knowledge gap is that I'm way out of date on my knowledge base to begin with. 2E was the last rulebook I played with, and that was in high school about 23 years ago. So half of my challenge is learning the rules and mechanics of tabletop again at the same time I learn FG.

Hell, if any thing FG has made the process easier, because many of the tools actually explain the mechanics better than a rulebook does, at least from a "this is why you do this" kind of perspective. I can see a world where VTT is not only the preferred, it's the standard for tabletop because it combines the advantages of automation with the creativity and free form of table top role-playing.

So I think it's really just a matter of polish at this point. If a guided introduction to the interface can give the results you're talking about, how could the developers integrate the documentation into the interface in a way that that instruction provides it's self?

Even better, as powerful as FG is, and as Mich as it improves the experience (which looks very likely from my perspective), how can we tap the full potential to the point that it becomes easier for a brand new player to understand FG, than it is to understand the base RPG they are playing?

Because at that point, FG becomes the preferred mode of playing tabletop, even live.

And I think lots of people here who actually do use FG in their live sessions would already say the functionality is better for delivering content. The only question we have to answer is, how do we prove that to someone who is already adept at paper, or someone brand new who is just starting to make choices between pen and paper and VTT?

And again, these are all questions of how to push the boundaries of where we are, and reach the full potential of the software, not a complaint about what we have in any way whatsoever. I think with a little time and energy FG is going to be a good choice for my own needs, and for my group. :)

Great discussion!

LordEntrails

February 14th, 2018, 04:01

I'm going to go out on a limb a bit because of how crazy helpful Laerun and the others at FG College are and suggest you reach out to them and see if they would setup a special class just for you and your players. I bet someone over there would be willing to setup a two hour timeslot to get your players familiar with things. And probably another session to get you up to speed as well.

Now, go tell Laerun you heard he promised to do such! (Not really, but ask nice and I suspect they will do all they can to help out!)

JohnD

February 14th, 2018, 04:55