Help with "Demo" not Demo

[Kick Buttowskie]

So if you offer a demo how about some help/official tutorial and someplace it can be found easily. if you want to make money and get more people to buy this they need to easily know its going to be worth their time and money. It's a bit frustrating to search a form and find nothing useful relating to the Demo. You dont buy a car with out a test drive, word of mouth to get interested in something is fine but at the end of the day I need to know its worth my money. So a link some help of any kind would be a great help if you want my money for this.

[Moon Wizard]

If you install the demo, there are 3 demo campaigns that are shown on the start screen if you click the Load Demo Campaign option.

Also, there is a user manual linked from the Help menu on the front web page, as well as a wiki with similar information.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/FantasyGroundsUserManual.pdf
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

On top of that, there are many videos on YouTube showing gameplay and walkthroughs of specific features.

Was there something specific you were looking for help with in particular that we can help answer?

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

What do you need help with? As mentioned, their is extensive information available, just let us know what you are looking for and we can help direct you further.

[FG_Dave]

Welcome to the forums and to Fantasy Grounds.

[SirGraystone]

The "demo" version let you join any game IF the GM has the ultimate version. So if you can find such a game, you don't need to spend any money. The peoples on this forum are also quick to help with any questions or problems if you ask.

[Zacchaeus]

And you can drop into the FGCollege Discord (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40020-Join-Fantasy-Grounds-College-Learn-Fantasy-Grounds-learn-D-amp-D-and-then-play!) channel and they'll be falling over themselves to help you.

[Kick Buttowskie]

[QUOTE=Moon Wizard;376237]If you install the demo, there are 3 demo campaigns that are shown on the start screen if you click the Load Demo Campaign option.

And that would be where some type of tutorial would help. I log in and no idea how to find those, clicking anything that says demo leads to more frustration.

User Manuel, lol ok it explains alot while not explaining how to get started. This thing would be great one a person can figure out hot to get started.

Utube, if you host an official video great link it, all I found was people showing off how good they are. But nothing to help a novice walk through the Not Demo, Demo.

Discord channel, well that I am assuming means some one monitoring it, which seemed not the case or nobody was jumping to help.

I appreciate the responses wish they were more helpful.

[Trenloe]

Download the demo and install it. There are links from the first page of the demo to various areas for more reading.

Otherwise watch any video, read any document. The demo is full featured, so all documents and videos can apply to the demo - with the only restriction being you can't save any data in the test/demo campaigns.

If you have any specific questions after going through the details in the links on the first screen of the application, please ask - be specific so we can help you!

[Kick Buttowskie]

Ok so downloaded and installed, open screen, load demo campaign, select 5e demo, hit start, campaign setup selected next, click modual, I got a calender, some fumble crit table, f2f battle maps, export those, next page modual export, no clues what this wants with multiple click option bubbles so I hit export, script error 42, thanks for playing.....

[LordEntrails]

There are lots of ways to get started. Try this one.
- Install
- Start FG
- Click "Load Campaign"
- See a tutorial there you want? Select it and click "Start"
No?
- Click "Create Campaign"
- Give it a name & select a ruleset, Click "Start"
- Walk through the dialog that pops up.

Did you get that far? What specific questions do you have? What do you want to do? Read the SRD? Create a Character? Make your own Adventure?

[Trenloe]

Look at the "General Tutorials" section - do the walkthrough or the "Tutorial Series" here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Videos

[LordEntrails]

Ok so downloaded and installed, open screen, load demo campaign, select 5e demo, hit start, campaign setup selected next, click modual, I got a calender, some fumble crit table, f2f battle maps, export those, next page modual export, no clues what this wants with multiple click option bubbles so I hit export, script error 42, thanks for playing.....
What is it you want to do? Create a character? Create a campaign story? Read the SRD?

You do know that FG is not a video game right?

[Kick Buttowskie]

Fully aware it's not a vedio game, I want to walk through it all, make a character make an adventure the whole gambit. Now that this is out of the way the system seems to be actually doing something after multiple times of trying to open close open close update update .....blah blah after a hundred times it finally is showing me things that you folks were saying, I guess I'll muddle through this "tutorial" as it seems I have to be actually running a group which is a bummer since I am seeing if this is viable before trying to get my players on board. If I don't understand it and we bumble around it won't be useful. And why pay for something that won't work. The idea of searching this out was for a digital table top since my players can only get together in the same place once in a blue moon. We have been playing for years, this would ramp up our game time if it's worth the price and trouble to learn.

[Zacchaeus]

Might I suggest that you buy a one month Ultimate subscription which will allow you to see far more of what the software can do as well as allowing you to run a game or two (your player’s will only need the demo version). If it’s not for you then you can cancel the subscription before the 30 days are up. Smiteworks offers a 30 day refund policy so you would lose nothing.

There is a learning curve and you will take some time to figure it all out. The guys at the FGCollege offer a wide variety of classes so you can see how it all works and you can get a lot of help by asking questions there or on the official Discord channel.

Try giving it a go, because it will be worth it once you get a handle on it.

[LordEntrails]

Keep playing around and asking questions when you get stuck. Their's lots of information to help out and when you need the forums are always here. Many of us came to FG for the same reasons you have, our groups grew up and spread out and we couldn't play as often as we wanted.

[ECDMuppet]

I'm a new player myself.

I first thought I might start a new thread, but the OP hit a couple of points that are similar to my experience, so I thought I might add to this conversation and see if we can all learn together.

So I haven't played tabletop since 2E back in high school 20+ years ago. An old buddy from that era who has been playing Pathfinder is now moving back to the area and Ive decided to pick back up with him.

Neither of us has ever used a virtual tabletop, and after looking at Roll20 we decided that FG looks and feels much better.

The only problem, he is an experienced GM, but I'm the more tech savvy of the two of us. Plus he has all the paper books, and I'm only now starting up. As a result, I'll be the one buying the license and the Pathfinder add-ons for FG, and likely doing much of the world building and maintenance and GM'ing, at least long term once I get up to speed.

Long story short, I've had much the same experience as our OP, but more from an "I have no idea what I'm doing with tabletop in general" perspective than, "How do I do what I already know using this?".

I think that for both myself and the OP, if there was a single, definitive video tutorial (or tutorial set) meant specifically to show players how to use the system, starting from the perspective of a user with only basic understanding and exposure to tabletop, A sort of a "Khan Academy" type video tutorial that goes through step by step would be really amazing.

Barring that, if anyone knows a specific video it tutorial set for someone like myself who is new (or returning) to tabletop, and using FG to set up and run their first Pathfinder (or whatever) campaign, that would be amazing. Based on the responses I have already seen here, I'm sure I'm in the right place.

Best regards,

[LordEntrails]

Welcome ECDMuppet.

I'm sure your feedback is appreciated. I think part of the problem is that those of us who have been here awhile have the challenge that when someone says "How do I get started?" We don't know quite what they mean. When we get requests from new people for help, they often mean very different things. Perhaps you can help us layout just what steps need to get detailed?

[ECDMuppet]

I think I can help give some perspective on it.

I'm an electrical engineer in my day job. In engineering school, I had trouble with Calculus 2 and some other math courses that were sort of the "gatekeeper" courses designed to cull the herd, so to speak.

What got me through was a website called Khan Academy. The lecturer for their math classes is an incredibly good instructor named Sal Khan, and anyone who wants an idea of how to explain a complex system "from the ground up" can learn how to do so by watching his videos and understanding his teaching style.

As the first example, take whatever the highest math course you learned in school, whether it be geometry or algebra or whatever, go to Khan Academy, and look for a video of something that was always difficult for you, whether it was adding fractions or multiplying polynomials or whatever.

From watching Sal Khan' s videos, you'll see that he explains everything fairly quickly. None of his videos are more than about 5 minutes. If he uses a more complex technique in the process, he posts a link to the video that explains that technique in more detail.

He never skips steps, walks you through every operation one after the other, and never assumes you know what's next or what came vefore, only that you can learn it with a sound explanation.

After you look at a more advanced video that pushes your own boundaries, go back to one of his most basic videos. He literally has videos that explain simple counting, addition and subtraction, using the exact same teaching style he use to explain linear algebra and differential equations.

Watching these basic videos will give you an idea of the simple, basic mechanics you neglect in the course of playing tabletop, and in transferring your pen and paper experience to the automated tools used by Fantasy Grounds. Things like rolling for initiative as the Pathfinder core rule book explains them, and then how that experience is automated using the software interface.

A really great introductory video might even take the most basic concept of something like calculating a hit roll on tabletop, and explaining how the combat tracker in fantasy grounds allows the user to automate that process by dragging the desired attack icon from your character's list of abilities onto the correct target (or however it actually works because I'm still fuzzy on it).

But either way, a list of short "official" tutorial videos are an incredible way of creating exposure for your product to new users. Whomever had a hand in creating your documentation and manuals, as well as anyone on the team interested in doing your tutorials (community or otherwise), should take a look at the lecturing style of Sal Khan. Probably the best lecturer I've ever seen for explaining complex topics.

Hope this helps.

[LordEntrails]

I think I can help give some perspective on it....
But either way, a list of short "official" tutorial videos are an incredible way of creating exposure for your product to new users. Whomever had a hand in creating your documentation and manuals, as well as anyone on the team interested in doing your tutorials (community or otherwise), should take a look at the lecturing style of Sal Khan. Probably the best lecturer I've ever seen for explaining complex topics.

Hope this helps.
First, so you know, everyone who's replied in this thread is just another user/customer like you. A few are also community developers and/or do contract work for SmiteWorks, but none of us are actually employees.

Having a series of videos like a Khan Academy would be awesome, no doubt about it. But I don't think anyone is going to volunteer to spend a the hundreds or thousand hours putting something like that together. And to ask one of the handful of SW employees to do so would probably not be the best business decision. Right now they are primarily focused on a few things; porting FG to the new architecture known informally as FGU (FG Unity); supporting and converting Pathfinder, StarFinder and 5E, and then continuing to make usability improvements that can also be leveraged in FGU.

All that doesn't mean that we (the community and SW) can't do better.

Where I still need some help is figuring out what help/tutorial is missing. I know it's not all organized or in one consistent format (though different formats for different people). But for instance, the User Manual starts with installation and goes from there. What about the Walk Through Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIQgasy42g&feature=youtu.be) linked from the videos section of Help? It has all the clicks and picks for getting a campaign started. What about the Tutorial set (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXaP4OoFR0gHBt6pNB0TLg2mSNf5deVQN) of videos from Dulux-Oz? Or the User Guides (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/User_Guides) in the wiki? Then their are the tutorial campaigns inside FG itself. And if all that is too much, just go over to FG College and ask someone to walk you through getting started.

I fear I'm starting to sound defensive or passive aggressive, and that's not my intent.

It's simply that their is so much out there to help people get started it baffles me when people have trouble getting started. As a technical instructor myself, I get it. People have different background, experience, and ways of learning. We just need help figuring out how else to present the material so we can help out even more people.

[Bidmaron]

Dulux Oz' videos are pretty close, but they are out of date. That is the problem here. It is hard enough to do them in the first place, keeping them up to date is an even more enormous task.

I hate to sound cruel, but if someone can't dive in using what is available, they should probably stick to video games. DMing in real life takes a lot of dedication, and doing it with a serious VTT is arguably at least as challenging.

If you hang with it, you will come around to our way of thinking that we want SW focused on new capability, not tutorials. And, hey, maybe someone will step up to the plate and do what you are suggesting, but it won't get maintained.

[damned]

Hi Guys,

Even fast start RPGs like Dungeon World require the GM to spend quite a lot of hours learning how to play the system, how to interact with players, how to create an engaging experience, how to handle it when a player does something different, something not spelt out in the rules etc.

Games like Pathfinder are the same game but so much more complex. They have hundreds and hundreds of pages on rules and how to do things and still dont cover all situations.

Learning a VTT is unfortunately going to be much easier if you first know how to use/play/run your game system or at least a game system.

Then you need to learn the way the Fantasy Grounds works.

Fantasy Grounds doesnt aim to teach you how to play any specific RPG. There are seriously like 8,000 RPGs out there with thousands of rules, systems, variations etc. And these games all have rule books ranging from 25-500+ pages.

In respect to building a set of tutorials like in the Khan Academy - calculus is a course that can be taught unchanged for 20 years. Fantasy Grounds is updated multiple times a year and the product that it is today is not the product that it will be this time next year. The meat will still be the same. But there will be many enhancements, tweaks, additions and sometimes something is completely revamped. That is a great feature of this product and in cases like yours it could be inhibiting your ability to learn the platform.

This is a substantial platform and it does require you to spend some time learning it if you want to use it well.

Launch the app and choose Load Campaign. Choose the 5e Demo Campaign. Click on Story and start with Story Entry one. Follow along and see what you learn.

You will have questions - ask specific questions and we will do our best to help you. The User Guide is very good but still probably details only 1/3rd of the app. But it details the most important stuff and more than enough stuff to get you going.

[ECDMuppet]

First, so you know, everyone who's replied in this thread is just another user/customer like you. A few are also community developers and/or do contract work for SmiteWorks, but none of us are actually employees.

The first person to reply to this thread had the title "developer". I also used to work for a small software developer doing tech support and helping to write documentation. The forums were one of our most important sources of information, not just an empty echo chamber for people to complain about a product and never be heard.


Having a series of videos like a Khan Academy would be awesome, no doubt about it. But I don't think anyone is going to volunteer to spend a the hundreds or thousand hours putting something like that together.I didn't say that was necessary. I said that Sal Khan's lecturing style would translate well to any tutorial sets made for this software.

Also, this is one small set of tools for playing DnD, not thousands of years of human understanding of mathematics it's self. I doubt you would need any more than two or three hours worth of videos, which would probably take a qualified and talented person about a week to create.


Where I still need some help is figuring out what help/tutorial is missing. I know it's not all organized or in one consistent format (though different formats for different people).

In my experience, it's mostly about the ergonomics of the data. In my job as an electrical engineer, I design SCADA systems for high volume factory environments and utility infrastructure. The job is about taking the data that's already available, and making an interface that not only makes the data available, it puts that data in the user's face at just the right time.

For exanple, if this were my project, and I have a good beginner's video tutorial, I wouldn't hide it in a videos section of a help section of a website that is separate from the software. The brand new user doesn't know this video exists, and might bounce over to YouTube to look for community videos instead of my own content.


But for instance, the User Manual starts with installation and goes from there. What about the Walk Through Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIQgasy42g&feature=youtu.be) linked from the videos section of Help? It has all the clicks and picks for getting a campaign started. What about the Tutorial set (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXaP4OoFR0gHBt6pNB0TLg2mSNf5deVQN) of videos from Dulux-Oz? Or the User Guides (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/User_Guides) in the wiki? Then their are the tutorial campaigns inside FG itself. And if all that is too much, just go over to FG College and ask someone to walk you through getting started.I would launch the official tutorial video the first time the software launched.

From there, I would have a help button on every screen and tool. Hitting the help button would bring up the user manual' s explanation of that tool, and a link to Delux-Oz's video explanation of that tool. If those videos weren't precise enough, I'd contract with him to do a 1-2 minute video explaining every screen, and pay him $(2d4 + 5) times 10 per video tutorial, just to keep it DnD up in here with the treasure.


I fear I'm starting to sound defensive or passive aggressive, and that's not my intent.

It's simply that their is so much out there to help people get started it baffles me when people have trouble getting started. As a technical instructor myself, I get it. People have different background, experience, and ways of learning. We just need help figuring out how else to present the material so we can help out even more people.Not at all. Its a difficult step translating from the perspective of a software developer who knows exactly what he is creating, to a first time user who doesn't understand how your creation is designed to help them. Very few software companies even have a documentation team that understands how to navigate this gap, because it takes genuine intuitive genius to to understand both sides of that huge gap in perspective. Add in the shoestring budget and lack of manpower you correctly point out, and it can be enough to frustrate anyone, especially a team of volunteers.

We don't disagree at all in fact, When discussing any topic there are those who point out the acceptable boundary or the ideal situation, and those who point out the norms and the obstacles to getting to the ideal. All parties generally agree that the norm is acceptable and progress towards the ideal may be slow, and they all agree thst the ideal is a good goal to work towards, but they still end up arguing because individuals may focus on one side of that spectrum or the other. Politics is filled with such wedge issues.

[Kick Buttowskie]

Yea see that's is part of my issue, " try our free useless demo" well if you want to know how good it is pay a little money. If you don't like it you can get your 10 bucks back after you jump through our hoops designed to drive you crazy and give up. Maybe I am jaded on that but if they want to sell a product you should be able to test drive it, not a watered down version. An interactive demo that walks you through the process, would be a perfect selling tool,. Not this it almost works version.

[Kick Buttowskie]

So great that you are some computer genius but some of us are not, we navigate the web like the titanic, so while it baffles you when people need help maybe take a step back and realize some people just don't have your abilities.

[damned]

Also, this is one small set of tools for playing DnD, not thousands of years of human understanding of mathematics it's self. I doubt you would need any more than two or three hours worth of videos, which would probably take a qualified and talented person about a week to create. [/code]

Brilliant.
The Khan Academy is brilliant.
And it has reached this level after thousands of years of human learning of mathematics and 10's of thousand of books being written on the subject.
And it is a subject that at least as far as we are taking about what is being taught in the Khan Academy has been static for many, many years, many of the topics, decades.

Bear with me.

[quote]In my experience, it's mostly about the ergonomics of the data. In my job as an electrical engineer, I design SCADA systems for high volume factory environments and utility infrastructure. The job is about taking the data that's already available, and making an interface that not only makes the data available, it puts that data in the user's face at just the right time.

Im my experience with SCADA systems (which I totally admit is far less than I imagine yours to be) the average RPG system is at least an order of magnitude more complex in the variations and complexities that can arise.
I know, first time you read that your going to go hogwash... dont dwell on it right now - later on your opinion may (or may not) change.
Lets not mention the cost of the average SCADA system or the implementation cost and compare those to a niche product in a niche hobby.

Stay with me... Im not writing off your comments... I have a point...


For exanple, if this were my project, and I have a good beginner's video tutorial, I wouldn't hide it in a videos section of a help section of a website that is separate from the software. The brand new user doesn't know this video exists, and might bounce over to YouTube to look for community videos instead of my own content.

Every single time you launch Fantasy Grounds there is a link on the very first screen to the User Manual, User Guides and Videos (these links all go to the Fantasy Grounds website...)
Im pretty sure when you have a new SCADA system/upgrade/etc you read the provided manual.


I would launch the official tutorial video the first time the software launched.

From there, I would have a help button on every screen and tool. Hitting the help button would bring up the user manual' s explanation of that tool, and a link to Delux-Oz's video explanation of that tool. If those videos weren't precise enough, I'd contract with him to do a 1-2 minute video explaining every screen, and pay him $(2d4 + 5) times 10 per video tutorial, just to keep it DnD up in here with the treasure.[quote]

Dulux_Oz makes a bunch of generic and very step by step videos.
They are not everyones cup of tea but they are very step by step.
They are closer to 6 hours and he hasnt loaded D&D up yet.
This is interface and usage of interface in detail.
And every time there is an update to the application they become a little less accurate.

[quote]Not at all. Its a difficult step translating from the perspective of a software developer who knows exactly what he is creating, to a first time user who doesn't understand how your creation is designed to help them. Very few software companies even have a documentation team that understands how to navigate this gap, because it takes genuine intuitive genius to to understand both sides of that huge gap in perspective. Add in the shoestring budget and lack of manpower you correctly point out, and it can be enough to frustrate anyone, especially a team of volunteers.

We don't disagree at all in fact, When discussing any topic there are those who point out the acceptable boundary or the ideal situation, and those who point out the norms and the obstacles to getting to the ideal. All parties generally agree that the norm is acceptable and progress towards the ideal may be slow, and they all agree thst the ideal is a good goal to work towards, but they still end up arguing because individuals may focus on one side of that spectrum or the other. Politics is filled with such wedge issues.

Have you loaded up a 5e or a Pathfinder tabletop? A significant number of the windows and tools already have ? buttons on them.
And the first dialogue that pops up when you open/create a new campaign starts with links to the User Guide, Wiki and Forums, followed by instructions on loading modules and a pointer to the campaign options.

Ultimately what works for you as a user, new user, experienced user, etc is different to what works for me and what works for the next person.
There is absolutely overlap in what will work for all of us.

Here are some challenges.

Video is an awful medium to document for the long term a product that is detailed and constantly evolving.
Its not a task that takes minutes or hours.
Its not a task that the team has the ability (either man hours in the day or a budget to outsource) to produce.
Its not a medium that everyone wants or likes.
Its not a medium suited to quickly finding specific information.

The medium that does all of those best is still written word.
There is reasonably good written content on this and it is easily found.

We do agree that it could be better.
It could definitely be better.
But the publisher has allocated their resources to where they believe they will provide the best input and improvements to the product.

As a SCADA engineer who is very good at your job Im sure you walk into a new (to you) environment and go right - that can be fixed, that can be changed, that can be automated, that can be bypassed and removed all togther. Im sure that sometimes the client goes, yep, yep, yep and yep and signs the check. Im sure that they sometimes go yep, no, no and yep. And sometimes they might go "how much? you're kidding right?".

Everything is possible. Only some things will get done now and some things might never get done.

Your suggestions are good. Maybe they are even exactly 100% what is required and sales will multiply 10 fold.
Dont think because I or someone else does or does not agree with everything you say that it isnt heard or thought about.

There are things that I wish the team would do and they either disagree or dont have the resources for those things to become a high enough priority to get done.

Fantasy Grounds is doing plenty right.
And this is reflected in many of the things that are happening.
And there is room for improvement.
And there is always ongoing improvement.

But back to your initial learning curve challenges...
Even though you want to play Pathfinder - open the 5e Sample Campaign and start with the first Story entry and also have the User Guide open and I think you will find the curve somewhat less challenging.

[ddavison]

I recommend loading up the 5E Sample Campaign and then going to the Story section. Start at the top story and then work through each of those for an introduction to the basics of the interface.

[damned]

So if you offer a demo how about some help/official tutorial and someplace it can be found easily. if you want to make money and get more people to buy this they need to easily know its going to be worth their time and money. It's a bit frustrating to search a form and find nothing useful relating to the Demo. You dont buy a car with out a test drive, word of mouth to get interested in something is fine but at the end of the day I need to know its worth my money. So a link some help of any kind would be a great help if you want my money for this.



If you install the demo, there are 3 demo campaigns that are shown on the start screen if you click the Load Demo Campaign option.

And that would be where some type of tutorial would help. I log in and no idea how to find those, clicking anything that says demo leads to more frustration.
User Manuel, lol ok it explains alot while not explaining how to get started. This thing would be great one a person can figure out hot to get started.
Utube, if you host an official video great link it, all I found was people showing off how good they are. But nothing to help a novice walk through the Not Demo, Demo.
Discord channel, well that I am assuming means some one monitoring it, which seemed not the case or nobody was jumping to help.
I appreciate the responses wish they were more helpful.


Ok so downloaded and installed, open screen, load demo campaign, select 5e demo, hit start, campaign setup selected next, click modual, I got a calender, some fumble crit table, f2f battle maps, export those, next page modual export, no clues what this wants with multiple click option bubbles so I hit export, script error 42, thanks for playing.....


Fully aware it's not a vedio game, I want to walk through it all, make a character make an adventure the whole gambit. Now that this is out of the way the system seems to be actually doing something after multiple times of trying to open close open close update update .....blah blah after a hundred times it finally is showing me things that you folks were saying, I guess I'll muddle through this "tutorial" as it seems I have to be actually running a group which is a bummer since I am seeing if this is viable before trying to get my players on board. If I don't understand it and we bumble around it won't be useful. And why pay for something that won't work. The idea of searching this out was for a digital table top since my players can only get together in the same place once in a blue moon. We have been playing for years, this would ramp up our game time if it's worth the price and trouble to learn.


Yea see that's is part of my issue, " try our free useless demo" well if you want to know how good it is pay a little money. If you don't like it you can get your 10 bucks back after you jump through our hoops designed to drive you crazy and give up. Maybe I am jaded on that but if they want to sell a product you should be able to test drive it, not a watered down version. An interactive demo that walks you through the process, would be a perfect selling tool,. Not this it almost works version.


So great that you are some computer genius but some of us are not, we navigate the web like the titanic, so while it baffles you when people need help maybe take a step back and realize some people just don't have your abilities.

Hi Kick Buttowskie and welcome.
You might notice everyone has been friendly and everyone has attempted to help you.
You do seem more intent on lashing out and making dramatic statements.
Its both difficult to help you when you seem to be resisting attempts to help and people become less inclined to spend time wanting to help someone that seems to think that drama is the best way to get help.
9 people have chimed in on this thread offering assistance or advice - not because of the drama but because they want to help you.

Im going to suggest much the same to you as my unfortunately long winded response to ECDMuppet...

Open Fantasy Grounds and Load Demo Campaign and choose the 5e Sample Campaign and start with the first Story entry and also have the User Guide open and I think you will find the curve somewhat less challenging.

Please do continue to ask questions and we will try to help.

[dulux-oz]

I'm late to the party on this, and it looks like some of the others have mentioned my Tutorial Vids (see the link in my sig, below).

For the record (& I'm in no way being defensive about this) the 10 or 11 30 minute vids I've done so far took me a about 7-10 hours each to make, and having updated them once I've been holding off and waiting for FGU before I do the refresh. So, yes, they might be a tad out of date, but I think (& many others agree) that they are still one of the best resources on FG out there - and yes, I am quite proud of them.

They were originally done for my own gaming group to learn FG. Most of us are either ICT Professionals (Senior Programmers, Network Engineers, Lead Test Engineers) or Engineering Professionals (Mechanical, Structural, Hydo) - yes, we're a bunch of geeks! They worked well for us so I decided to "give something back" to this great Community, by making them public. :)

As far as FG being for DnD - well, yes, but its also for a hell of a lot of other RPGs as well - Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulu, and many others, not to mention earlier editions of DnD as well. While 5E DnD currently is the most popular, that'll change in the future like it has changed in the past. To do specific Videos for each Ruleset covered by FG is a task so enormous I shudder at the thought (& if you hang around here long enough you'll understand that I relish taking on mammoth projects :) ).

Oh, and BTW, as a Professional ICT Consultant (CIO/CTO, Program Manager, Security Engineer, Network Engineer and Database Engineer - plus I "dabble" in code :p ) the price of $(2d4 + 5) times 10 per vid is a little bit below my (professional) going rate. :)

Anyway, stick with us - we know we're not perfect but we are the best around. Watch my vids - or someone else's, whichever takes your fancy - and keep asking questions, because this fantastic Community is one of the main strengths of this fantastic software.

Cheers

[Targas]

I can‘t help myself, but think you‘ve all being fooled by a troll. By now, there was no serious attempt to explain any issue...

[dulux-oz]

I can‘t help myself, but think you‘ve all being fooled by a troll. By now, there was no serious attempt to explain any issue...

Possibly, but even so, there will be others with similar concerns that the answers in this thread might just answer. :)

[ECDMuppet]

In respect to building a set of tutorials like in the Khan Academy - calculus is a course that can be taught unchanged for 20 years. Fantasy Grounds is updated multiple times a year and the product that it is today is not the product that it will be this time next year. The meat will still be the same. But there will be many enhancements, tweaks, additions and sometimes something is completely revamped. That is a great feature of this product and in cases like yours it could be inhibiting your ability to learn the platform.

This is an excellent point. There are probably core aspects of the interface like how to select your target, and clicking an ability and dragging to the chat window to roll that attack, which can be explained in a permanent video, but trying to explain all different rulesets and every core function would be an exercize in futility, especially with the state of flux a piece of software finds its self in.

I was thinking more along the lines of an hour or two worth of videos, each maybe a minute or two long, that the devs can tie into the software it's self through help screens for each major tool in the toolbox. Basically augmenting the help system in the software with the best available explanations in both text and video form where available.


This is a substantial platform and it does require you to spend some time learning it if you want to use it well. Agreed! I'm having a rough time with it just not having played for 20 years. I can imagine jumping in with no background at all.

And I should be clear that what I'm bringing up aren't actually complaints at all. What I have seen from the various videos and research I have done so far has been quite educational, and I can agree in principle that there is more than enough info out there for anyone who has the interest and some basic YouTube and Google skills to be successful. I'm speaking more to an ideal outcome than than to a minimum standard, because what we have now seems acceptable.

My thoughts are based on ny own perspective as an engineer, a student, and my limited experience as an educator in my own discipline, about ways to make what is already a pretty fantastic product even better.

The main piece of software I use to design SCADA systems (basically user screens for industrial processes like water pumping fields and factory logistics operations) is one I chose not because it is the most mature or even has the most features. It's because it has by far the best documentation. On any screen or menu, you can hit F1 and get the user's manual page for threat screen or menu, and get an explanation of what every feature means.

To tie that to Fantasy Grounds, it would be like mousing over an attack roll or combat maneuver mechanic, for example, and hitting F1 to bring up the FG user manual's page for that mechanic, and possibly links to any videos or tutorials on the topic.

And again, what I have seen so far is pretty good. If there is already a user's manual for the game, simply having thst up on a second screen and searching for the feature in question is fine. I'm just mentioning things I really like so that maybe they could be put into a feature request.

In fact, right now is the perfect time for the devs to build this kind of functionality into the game. If they are already doing a full interface rebuild, adding some really badass help functionality would make the VTT just that much easier to use, both for new players to the genre and for experienced GM's who are making the transition to VTT.

In fact, if any of the devs would like, I could probably be convinced to trade my own skills for some help with the dev work. I'm just now getting back into tabletop after a long belreak, and I haven't even bought any content for Pathfinder other than the PHB*errummcoughcough*Core Rulebook. I'd love to spend a few hours helping to curate the manuals and help the devs add a solid help system to the game in exchange for some of the fancy pathfinder add-on content. Consider this a job application if any of our devs are listening :)

[ECDMuppet]

[QUOTE=ECDMuppet;376416]Also, this is one small set of tools for playing DnD, not thousands of years of human understanding of mathematics it's self. I doubt you would need any more than two or three hours worth of videos, which would probably take a qualified and talented person about a week to create. [/code]

Brilliant.
The Khan Academy is brilliant.
And it has reached this level after thousands of years of human learning of mathematics and 10's of thousand of books being written on the subject.
And it is a subject that at least as far as we are taking about what is being taught in the Khan Academy has been static for many, many years, many of the topics, decades.

Bear with me.



Im my experience with SCADA systems (which I totally admit is far less than I imagine yours to be) the average RPG system is at least an order of magnitude more complex in the variations and complexities that can arise.
I know, first time you read that your going to go hogwash... dont dwell on it right now - later on your opinion may (or may not) change.
Lets not mention the cost of the average SCADA system or the implementation cost and compare those to a niche product in a niche hobby.

Stay with me... Im not writing off your comments... I have a point...



Every single time you launch Fantasy Grounds there is a link on the very first screen to the User Manual, User Guides and Videos (these links all go to the Fantasy Grounds website...)
Im pretty sure when you have a new SCADA system/upgrade/etc you read the provided manual.

[quote]I would launch the official tutorial video the first time the software launched.

From there, I would have a help button on every screen and tool. Hitting the help button would bring up the user manual' s explanation of that tool, and a link to Delux-Oz's video explanation of that tool. If those videos weren't precise enough, I'd contract with him to do a 1-2 minute video explaining every screen, and pay him $(2d4 + 5) times 10 per video tutorial, just to keep it DnD up in here with the treasure.[quote]

Dulux_Oz makes a bunch of generic and very step by step videos.
They are not everyones cup of tea but they are very step by step.
They are closer to 6 hours and he hasnt loaded D&D up yet.
This is interface and usage of interface in detail.
And every time there is an update to the application they become a little less accurate.



Have you loaded up a 5e or a Pathfinder tabletop? A significant number of the windows and tools already have ? buttons on them.
And the first dialogue that pops up when you open/create a new campaign starts with links to the User Guide, Wiki and Forums, followed by instructions on loading modules and a pointer to the campaign options.

Ultimately what works for you as a user, new user, experienced user, etc is different to what works for me and what works for the next person.
There is absolutely overlap in what will work for all of us.

Here are some challenges.

Video is an awful medium to document for the long term a product that is detailed and constantly evolving.
Its not a task that takes minutes or hours.
Its not a task that the team has the ability (either man hours in the day or a budget to outsource) to produce.
Its not a medium that everyone wants or likes.
Its not a medium suited to quickly finding specific information.

The medium that does all of those best is still written word.
There is reasonably good written content on this and it is easily found.

We do agree that it could be better.
It could definitely be better.
But the publisher has allocated their resources to where they believe they will provide the best input and improvements to the product.

As a SCADA engineer who is very good at your job Im sure you walk into a new (to you) environment and go right - that can be fixed, that can be changed, that can be automated, that can be bypassed and removed all togther. Im sure that sometimes the client goes, yep, yep, yep and yep and signs the check. Im sure that they sometimes go yep, no, no and yep. And sometimes they might go "how much? you're kidding right?".

Everything is possible. Only some things will get done now and some things might never get done.

Your suggestions are good. Maybe they are even exactly 100% what is required and sales will multiply 10 fold.
Dont think because I or someone else does or does not agree with everything you say that it isnt heard or thought about.

There are things that I wish the team would do and they either disagree or dont have the resources for those things to become a high enough priority to get done.

Fantasy Grounds is doing plenty right.
And this is reflected in many of the things that are happening.
And there is room for improvement.
And there is always ongoing improvement.

But back to your initial learning curve challenges...
Even though you want to play Pathfinder - open the 5e Sample Campaign and start with the first Story entry and also have the User Guide open and I think you will find the curve somewhat less challenging.

Agreed with most every point here. The existing documentation is sufficient, or this wouldn't be one of the go-to VTT's for role-playing. My only intent is to help provide a perspective that can perhaps guide future efforts towards improving the software help system.

I wouldn't frame my own criticism the way Mr. Buttowski does, because a little effort on my own part has produced a lit of good learning on the topic. I've only been at it about a day, and I'm pretty sure that given one good weekend of research on the workflow, and a little more background on the Pathfinder rules in general, I could be on my feet doing world building and experimenting with encounters.

Indeed, short of a neural link to the Matrix, the information Mr. Buttowski seems to be seeking may not be possible to present as efficiently and intuitively as he imagines. Step by step tutorials are difficult things to create within the software it's self.

Actually, I bring up the SCADA software I mention because this platform seems to have a similarly difficult workflow, not to the SCADA systems I create as an end product, but to the suite of tools I use to create those interfaces themselves. The SCADA systems I create would be more akin to the content stored within a Fantasy Grounds campaign, where the SCADA software I use would be akin to Fantasy Grounds it's self as an interface.

So when I say my SCADA software's very effective help system was able to streamline my learning curve for that software, I'm comparing that experience to how a well-implemented help system would improve the experience of using Fantasy Grounds from the perspective of a new or novice user.

And it's really not that difficult from a programming perspective. Instead of using the built in Windows 9x style "Hit F1 to bring up Help", just tie the F1 key to a help system that uses a reference to the highlighted window to link directly to the specific help documentation for that feature. It doesn't have to link additional videos, or even tutorials if the core documentation is already developed. Those were just additional ideas because someone mentioned that the content was already out there.

Anyway, we don't disagree at all. I'm just spitballing because I saw a new user experiencing frustrations that I myself shared to a lesser extent. Despite the less than constructive way Mr. Buttowski expresses his concerns, they do create the risk of scaring away new players, and discouraging existing play groups from transitioning to VTT unless they have no other choice.

That's unfortunate, because from my perspective as someone who has just returned to tabletop after a very long time immersed in video games and computer environments, I actually see Fantasy Grounds as a far superior method of playing tabletop. I see no reason why someone new to tabletop couldn't start here and never look back. All the software needs is some polish on the documentation, and I think everyone's goals for the platform could be achieved. Maybe that's not an achievable goal right now, but it's actually even better to approach the subject during a major development cycle when such a feature could be more completely integrated, than after the cycle is complete and the software platform is mature.

Just my 2 copper, as always. Thanks for the robust discussion on the topic.

[ECDMuppet]

I'm late to the party on this, and it looks like some of the others have mentioned my Tutorial Vids (see the link in my sig, below).

For the record (& I'm in no way being defensive about this) the 10 or 11 30 minute vids I've done so far took me a about 7-10 hours each to make, and having updated them once I've been holding off and waiting for FGU before I do the refresh. So, yes, they might be a tad out of date, but I think (& many others agree) that they are still one of the best resources on FG out there - and yes, I am quite proud of them.

They were originally done for my own gaming group to learn FG. Most of us are either ICT Professionals (Senior Programmers, Network Engineers, Lead Test Engineers) or Engineering Professionals (Mechanical, Structural, Hydo) - yes, we're a bunch of geeks! They worked well for us so I decided to "give something back" to this great Community, by making them public. :)

As far as FG being for DnD - well, yes, but its also for a hell of a lot of other RPGs as well - Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulu, and many others, not to mention earlier editions of DnD as well. While 5E DnD currently is the most popular, that'll change in the future like it has changed in the past. To do specific Videos for each Ruleset covered by FG is a task so enormous I shudder at the thought (& if you hang around here long enough you'll understand that I relish taking on mammoth projects :) ).

Oh, and BTW, as a Professional ICT Consultant (CIO/CTO, Program Manager, Security Engineer, Network Engineer and Database Engineer - plus I "dabble" in code :p ) the price of $(2d4 + 5) times 10 per vid is a little bit below my (professional) going rate. :)

Anyway, stick with us - we know we're not perfect but we are the best around. Watch my vids - or someone else's, whichever takes your fancy - and keep asking questions, because this fantastic Community is one of the main strengths of this fantastic software.

Cheers

Fantastic to make your acquaintance! I'll definitely be looking at your vids as I educate myself on the topic.

Seems like you've already gone through the process that I have been explaining, but from a community perspective as opposed to inside development. From an engineering standpoint, what I was getting at was doing some development on the internal documentation that takes advantage of the wealth of information that content creators like you have already made for us.

At 30 minutes a piece, it seems like the existing videos may cover too much ground to tie to one feature or or another directly within the interface. If they are what I think they are, it's pretty much a standalone product.

But think about now that the devs are currently rebuilding the interface. Wouldn't it be special if they included built-in help l, where hitting "F1" with any given window highlighted would bring up the help section for that window, with explanations of each setting and feature (and perhaps even links to 1 or 2 minute tutorials)?

I think a system like that, that simply curated the existing documentation and improved the ergonomics of how the user accesses it would, would help a new player like myself or Mr. Buttowski immensely. What's your take?

[wmsmitty]

And you can drop into the FGCollege Discord (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40020-Join-Fantasy-Grounds-College-Learn-Fantasy-Grounds-learn-D-amp-D-and-then-play!) channel and they'll be falling over themselves to help you.

😂🤣 so true!!

[ECDMuppet]

I can‘t help myself, but think you‘ve all being fooled by a troll. By now, there was no serious attempt to explain any issue...

It's definitely possible. When I worked tech support for my old software company, I also helped out on their forums answering questions. It always seemed like there were a couple of people that no amount of help could ever satisfy. We eventually decided that these guys were employees of our competitors, who were just on our forums to troll and find fault and turn the user base against us.

At the same time, you can learn as much from your enemies as your friends, sometimes more. We would engage these users, ask for opinions from other users about their complaints, and sometimes the things they brought up to troll about were legitimate concerns that we had simply overlooked. I ended up putting in three or four feature requests and bug tickets based on that negative feedback.

In fact, I'm still sure that one of those trolls worked for the competition, because he got more and more hostile the more I thanked him for his contributions, and told him that his efforts were genuinely helping us improve our product.

For my own part, I solemnly swear that I'm here in good faith. I share a few of Mr. Buttowski's frustrations, but I agree with everyone here that there are more than enough resources to answer any questions I've had personally. It's only taken a level of effort that is perfectly reasonable to expect for a piece of software this complicated.

The community also seems great. It looks like the product benefits greatly from the fact that its built around the idea of creating community. The devs and new users like myself are lucky to have a community as strong as what I've seen here.

[ECDMuppet]

An interactive demo that walks you through the process, would be a perfect selling tool,

The demo campaigns actually work pretty well from what I have seen. My only hangup is the same as yours here. The content is there, there just isn't a built in method that walks you through the process step by step.

At the same time, especially depending on what languages the devs are writing this in, in-app tutorials are extremely difficult to pull off effectively. I think just having a more ergonomic help system, where you can hit "F1" in any active window to bring up the help specific to that tool, is the most you can expect from a niche software developer. Ask anyone who has worked in a AAA title video game and they will tell you that documentation and tutorials are a multi million dollar venture. I have a college buddy who worked on Borderlands 2 who could tell you horror stories.

But definitely don't be discouraged from sharing. Experienced users don't have the same perspective as someone who is new to the interface, and most of the feedback I have heard from tabletop friends who are reluctant to join this new group I'm creating is that VTT's can be clunky and hard to learn. You're definitely not alone in being frustrated and put off by the process.

Just do be positive. It's hard for others here to understand your perspective, but as power users and even developers themselves, they have specific insights that are important to the dynamic you're talking about. Understanding their perspectives is every bit as important as understanding the perspectives you are sharing with them. The best answer to your questions lies in a complete understanding of all the perspectives being presented.

Best regards,

[LordEntrails]

Do note, that making F1 a help key does come with some challenges as it is currently a use assignable hot key that can be used as s shortcut for any roll or link the user wants. It would be possible to implement, but their are impacts to such. (Also, I know you are just using that as an example.)

[wmsmitty]

Without getting into the why of it, I will simply say that YouTube was the best facilitator of getting me up and running. These were the 4 authors of the videos that were most successful in getting me started:

The CEO, Doug (Fantasy Grounds): clear, concise and accurate

Digital DM: great instruction, but very verbose. His videos would be the best, if he would just be more direct and less fluff.

Jason Hibdon: This guy doesn’t have a ot of instruction tutorials, but he should! He’s damn good with the step by step instruction from A to Z without the verbosity. It’s his video “Adventure Building” that got me up and running with writing my first adventure for FG. I use this video as a gold standard for the “How To” approach.

And finally, Philip Greig. His Effects series is the best.

[ECDMuppet]

Yeah if you are starting from scratch it's always good to tie into the hot keys generic Windows applications run, but thats not always the case. The CG modeling and animating software I did tech support for was developed in DOS, and had such a different work flow that there would have been a mass revolt in the user base if we had changed it. Eventually we created a "standard" and "classic" mode for the hot keys, and set it to standard by default for new users while keeping classic well maintained so that our established user base wasn't disenfranchised by the decision.

Development is crazy sometimes, especially with software catering to niche markets.

[ECDMuppet]

Without getting into the why of it, I will simply say that YouTube was the best facilitator of getting me up and running. These were the 3 authors of the videos that were most successful and instuctional as a step by step process:

The CEO, Doug: clear, concise and accurate

Digital DM: great instruction, but very verbose. His videos would be the best, if he would just be more direct and less fluff.

Jason Hibdon: This guy doesn’t have s lot of instruction tutorials, but he should! He’s damn good with the step by step instruction from A to Z without the verbosity. It’s his video “Adventure Building” that got me up and running with writing my first adventure for FG. I use this video as a gold standard for the “How To” approach.

And finally, Philip Gregg. His Effects series is the best.

Fantastic information! This is exactly the answer to the question that originally brought me here to the forums. I'll be all over those videos tonight.

[RunningHill]

Another great way to learn is to jump in as a player!
I don't think I would have manage to GM first if I haven't learned the system by playing it. Look in the LFG forum - you can even set up your own ad.

[Zacchaeus]

So is this the kind of thing that is required? (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?38-The-Tavern) Is so I'll do more of them

Better link: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42440-Tutorial-Video-Series

[wmsmitty]

So is this the kind of thing that is required? (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?38-The-Tavern) Is so I'll do more of them

Better link: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42440-Tutorial-Video-Series You do great tutorial work! So I would say yes.