Defense over Armor class

[Wraith]

I have been working on a new system for defense gathered from varients thought up by others then mutated into what I call Block, Perry, and Dodge. You always see thoughs fight sences in the movies were one person attacks the hero and he blocks it with his sword then spins and cuts the person instead, well this rule set is ment to simulate this type of fighting.
When being attack you have three choices dodge, block, and perry.

1) Dodging is the easiest defense. You simply roll a reflex save to see if you get out of the way of the attack. You add your Dextarity Modifier, Reflex Base Save, Size, and any dodge bonuses from feats, racial abilieties, or class features.

2) Blocking is using a sword or shield simply to get in the way of an attack. For this you roll an attack roll with the weapon or shield to see if you block the attack. If your attack roll is greater then the attackers then you block and it is resolved as a sunder attack. You add you Strength Modifier, Base Attack Bonus, Size, and any feats, racial ablilieties, or class features that add attack bonuses, or shield for that given weapon.

3) Perring is much like blocking but if you succeed at blocking the attack then you can use an attack of opportunity to make an attack against your opponent. If the strike deals damage then the attackers turn is ended the same way as a critical failure. The same bonuses apply to this as to the block.

I have other varients that I use in conjuction with this one to even out the balance but I wanted to get a feel for what people thought of this change before I start post the others. Just write in and let me know what you think I plan on using these varients in my up coming campaign and if out look isn't good then I will have to rethink my rules.

[gurney9999]

Is that the Matthew Perry variant? (sorry, couldn't resist.)

For dodge, since Reflex save already takes into account your dexterity modifier you are essentially doubling up your bonus.

That being said, I do like the idea of combat variants. Keep working on this (or post more about what you have). I'm not a rules hound like many around here. I'm sure you'll get lots of good suggesstions comments as you move forward with this.

[Stuart]

The Game of Thrones d20 has some variants that chage combat significantly. The suggestions offered by Wraith may prove cumbersome via FG ... especially for a DM ! However, I've used similar rules with Rolemaster and Elric ! ... especially the latter with a "riposte" type rule. It works nicely.

I like the idea but could not really use it in addition to the critical hit mod's and damage/bleeding rules I am about to "inflict" (pun not intended) on my players. My groups are quite large and combat is just on the edge ofbeing too cumbersome as is ... small groups, this sort of stuff could work nicely ... let us know how it works with your groups Wraith.

Stuart

[richvalle]

Interesting ideas.

Per what Gurney said, I think if you just use the base Reflex save you'll be fine. That might have been what you meant in the first place. ( I just went back and reread what you posted... you do say base save).

My fear is that this variant would drag out combat. A lot. First you are doubling the number of dice rolls needed to conclude a fight.

Hmmm, for 1 I'm guessing the DC you are trying to beat is the attack die roll? So if an attacker rolled a 2 + 3 for bab +3 for str and +1 for magic = 9 and you roll a 2 + 2 base reflex save +1 dex +1 dodge = 6 then he hits you?

I was thinking you would hit less but now I'm not so sure.

What will magic armor give you?

I'd remove the auto-sunder from the block option. We've never tried it, but from what I've heard the sunder rule is suspect of being too easy to do. Give a bonus for blocking with a shield vs a weapon. Maybe even a bigger one for blocking ranged attacks.

For parry does this AoO count against the limit a character can do? (I'd guess it would). If a character has combat reflexes this means he can parry and strike back at every person that attacks him that round? (or for as many as he has in dex bonus). This makes it a 'must have' feat for high dex characters.

My quick thoughts! I'd be interested in seeing how it plays out. One thing to check: make some high (18+) characters and see how it plays. Check fighter vs fighter, fighter vs mage, high dex vs fighter and make sure they all work out ok.

For combat options, check out Iron Heros. I played it at a game store a few weeks back... very fun! There was a whole list of combat options you can do. Basicly, you take a - in something to get a + in something else. So reduce your AC and get a + to hit, or reduce your to hit number to gain extra damage. It made fights very interesting because you had options every round. Not just 'who am I going to swing at' but 'how am I going to swing at this guy?'.

I'm thinking about adding these combat options to our dnd game and see how they work out.

rv

[acmer]

Sounds nice. but I'm not too familiar with D&D rules yet. There was a skill in Neverwinter Nights that was similar to those.

Parry (https://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwinternights/skills/parry.php)

That might already be in the core rules, but haven't noticed yet. It was a very useful skill for my rogue, and it kind of replicates the great sword fights if both attackers have the "parry mode selected". It might need some negative effects on attack rolls though.

[Wraith]

I think if you just use the base Reflex save you'll be fine. That might have been what you meant in the first place. ( I just went back and reread what you posted... you do say base save).

Ya, thats what I ment you figure up your reflex save as normal then add feat and racial dodge bonuses.


Hmmm, for 1 I'm guessing the DC you are trying to beat is the attack die roll? So if an attacker rolled a 2 + 3 for bab +3 for str and +1 for magic = 9 and you roll a 2 + 2 base reflex save +1 dex +1 dodge = 6 then he hits you?

I was thinking you would hit less but now I'm not sure.

What will magic armor give you?

Yes, that is exactly what the idea is, but I'm not sure if you get hit less or more I would think it would depend on what the differnce of bonuses were. I also use a armor varient with this that makes armor have damage reducetion instead of armor class bonuses. So it doesn't make you get hit less it makes the hit's less painful just like real armor.

Magic armor would only improve the damage reducetion and hit points of the armor. I will post this varient on a seprate thread later.


I'd remove the auto-sunder from the block option. We've never tried it, but from what I've heard the sunder rule is suspect of being too easy to do. Give a bonus for blocking with a shield vs a weapon. Maybe even a bigger one for blocking ranged attacks.

Well origanially you could only block with a shield and perry with a weapon. I think I might go back to that. The "auto-sunder" works better with shields, then with weapons anyway. I always think of "13th Warrior" when I think of the blocking option. I like the idea of the shield breaking apart when a huge monster hits you.


For parry does this AoO count against the limit a character can do? (I'd guess it would). If a character has combat reflexes this means he can parry and strike back at every person that attacks him that round? (or for as many as he has in dex bonus). This makes it a 'must have' feat for high dex characters.

Yes, that is the hole point. I always thought that some of those feats were a little unbalanced. All my characters that got that feat never got to use it, cause who would run by a halfling that just chopped down three of your friends in the previous round.


I'm thinking about adding these combat options to our dnd game and see how they work out.

Thank you for your feed back and you faith in my varients. I have tried it out with lots of home made characters but it lacks the flow of multi-person input when seated at a table.

[Wraith]

Sounds nice. but I'm not too familiar with D&D rules yet. There was a skill in Neverwinter Nights that was similar to those.

Parry (https://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwinternights/skills/parry.php)

That might already be in the core rules, but haven't noticed yet. It was a very useful skill for my rogue, and it kind of replicates the great sword fights if both attackers have the "parry mode selected". It might need some negative effects on attack rolls though.
I looked at that link and it isn't really the same because my varient really takes the place of an armor class altogther. Your armor is then used to reduce the amount of damage you take not how meny times you are hit.

Thanks for the imput though.:D

[SurlyDwarf]

The only real reason I struggle with something like this, is that it has a tendency to slow things down. One of the benefits--perhaps the only benefit, admittedly--of having everything boiled into a value called AC is that it allows combat to be resolved more quickly. i.e. when an attack falls short of a target's AC, it is assumed it was because the target moved, parried, etc., in such a way as to avoid the blow or cause said blow to be a glancing one.

While it is less interesting, it is much quicker to resolve. I find this especially important when playing with FG where (most) people are already screaming to find ways to speed combat along.

That all being said, I like the idea of what you're doing and plan on following your progress. It is always important to challenge paradigms and look for improvements. All of this is IMHO, of course.

Hope this helped.

[Ablefish]

Dodging and Parrying remind me of the Palladium RPG. That was my first 'dnd' system.

It does allow for more interesting combat and characters, but it is a lot more roll intensive, as people have mentioned.

[Ntchwaidumela]

Hi all,

My first post here. I wanted to say its nice to see such a warm community.

I've used a parry system in my games for years and I enjoy it. However, we use a point buying system to develop chacacters that tends to favor higher damage and less HP; thus, each hit is more meaningful and combat is shorter.

It adds a lot of excitement when a character is hit by a potentially killing blow. Its less dramatic for a DM, rolling behind a screen, to say "you're hit, you die," then to say "you're hit, roll a parry or die!". Make for memorable rolls, especially when a character make multiple parries while on the brink of death.

Another drawback besides flow of combat is some decreased excitement when a character hits, since you have to wait for the monster's parry.

Mainly, I prefer a parry system because it feels better. A nekked level 15 fighter should be harder to hit than a level 1 fighter in plate. Standard rules account for this problem with hit points. Although, if the flow of combat is much slower with FG, then I'll probably work the parry into AC to cut down on rolls.

[richvalle]

Can you just roll the parry as the player roll's his attack? Yeah, you might be wasting a roll, but as you are both rolling together you are not wasting time. If he hits, you already have the parry rolled and can resolve.

rv

[Sigurd]

If possible it should kick in only when you would otherwise hit. At least you dont have to roll twice for all your misses.

That said, I'd be interested to see anything.


S

[Wraith]

I think a lot of people are miss understanding this system.

In Unearthed Arcana there is a varient that trades the base 10 you use on your AC with a 1d20 roll. The bases is that the 10 is just the average roll of your defense check. Well this is the same thing just you have a choice rather then just standing there IMO.

I did some checks like richvalle had suggested. I used the NPCs out of the DMG at diffrent levels and the perry varient does seem to favor a character with a high Dex. but I also used my Hit Point and Armor varients and this evened things out quite a bit.

The follwing is how I explained it on my campaign listing.

1) Defense
I don't use armor class instead I use a block and perry varient. Each player rolls both attack and defense. For your attack roll you roll as normal rules, but for defense you have three choices a) you can dodge the attack and use your reflexes to avoid the damage, or b) you can use one of your attacks of oppurtunity to perry the attack. The benifit of perring the attack is that if you beat the attacker's roll, you get to immediatly counter attack. So if you want to look at it this way a missed attack provokes an attack of oppurtunity, and c) you can block an attack with a shield or off handed weapon if you are fighting two-handed. Doing this is the same as two-handed fighting and carries the same penalties. A shield is always considered a light weapon since it is made to be carried and used in a off hand. For example a 1st level fighter with reflex save of +0 (+0 base save, +0 dex, no feats), a base attack bonus of +1, 2 attacks of opportunity per round, and a light steel shield in his off hand. He is attacked by a barbarian with a greataxe. He is fighting defensively do to the power of the barbarians attacks. The barbarian attacks swinging his greataxe. The fighter decides to block with his shield. He rolls his block which is 1d20+1 from base attack bonus and blocks but that hit destroyed his shield. The second attack comes and the fighter decides that without a shield he needs to deal some damage to stop this barbarian so he decides to perry the attack rolling 1d20+1 from base attack bonus and perries the attack. Now he deals damage to the barbarian. The next attack comes and with out a shield or an attack of opportunity the fighter is forced to dodge rolling 1d20+0 reflex save and with luck the fighter was missed three times. (these are not real numbers and is not what a character with this varient would look like.)

2) Armor
If you don't add an armor bonus to your armor class then what is the point in buying armor. In my campaign I give each type of armor a damage reduction, hardness, and hit points. This is determined by transforming the armor bonus into damage reduction and hardness, the hit points are a total of 5 times the armors DR. When a character is hit which doesn't happen as much as you think, the attacker rolls damage and first the hardness is subtracted which is negated by the armor. Then subtract the damage reduction which is then absorbed by the armor removing hit points form the armors total. Last the remaining damage is applied to the character. For example a knight with 16 hit points is wearing a suite of full plate armor which has DR and Hardness of 8 with hp 40. He is hit by a barbarian with a greataxe dealing maximum damage of 20. First subtract the harness of 8 which is negated leaving 12 damage. Next you subtract the damage reduction of 8 which is absorbed by the armor removing 8 hit points leaving 32 hit points, and leaving 4 points of damage. Last the 4 remaining points of damage are removed from the character leaving 12 hit points. After being hit with a strong hit such as that the knight's armor lost almost half it's hit points, and the knight lost only 1/4 of his hit points.

3) Shields
When a character uses a shield he may use the shield to perry an attack without using an attack of oppurtunity. The draw back to this is he doesn't deal any damage if he successfully perries the attack. When a character fails to perry an attack with a shield the attacking character deals damage the same as above. On the other hand when a character successfully perries an attack with a shield the damage is still dealt but it is all apllied to the shield, unless the damage done drops the shields hit points to zero destroying the shield. If a characters shield is destroyed any extra damage points are then applied to the characters armor and any remaining damage points are subtracted from the characters hit points. A +1 magical bonus adds 2 points to hardness and 10 hit points.

4) Hit Points
In my champaign you only get hit points equel to your Constitution score. This gives a person less life, and makes combat more dangerous, but it brings in greater realism. For example a character with a Constittution score of 12 only gets 12 hit points... ever. The only way to raise your hit points is to raise your Constitution score.

5) Critical Hits
With the hit point system I use a critical hit could easiely kill any character, and as often as critical hits are rolled the party would be dead in a matter of days. To this end I only make critical hits guaranteed hits that over come damage reduction. To score a critical hit you must roll a 20 on the die without your opponite rolling the same. Then you must roll a second attack that beats your targets DR. Then you roll damage as normal and countiue the round.

OK please take into count the hole system it is a bit more complicated then the current rules but once it is learned it is as easy as the current rules. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

[richvalle]

Wow.

This remindes me some of the Runequest combat system. Your's is half way between d20 and Runequest.

What you have sounds pretty good. I was worried about fights taking forever at high levels untill I saw you don't get HP's every level.

I'd play a game with this system, no problem. Fights might take a bit longer, but with the decrease in HP's, maybe not too.

How does magic work then? You can't be having 10d6 fireballs going off. Or even high level magic missles. What about touch attacks?

rv

[Wraith]

How does magic work then? You can't be having 10d6 fireballs going off. Or even high level magic missles. What about touch attacks?

Well touch attacks would work just like a ranged attack. The armor a person was wearing just would reduce damage. Armor would still reduce the effects of a fireball or something simular to that, but a 10d6 fire ball could still be very lethel. I will have to think that over. It will probly get a face lift as well.

You know that is a good question I hadn't thought of magic.

[Ntchwaidumela]

I think low HP or high damage is important with a parry system. Standard rules take into account that at high levels characters hit more frequently so HP are used to mitigate this. Parry systems emphasize hits as big events that don't happen constantly. They try to avoid the dreaded battle of HP attrition which occurs between 2 dagger wielding characters with 100+ hit points.

I like the idea of armor as mitigation, but I've always thought it would be cumbersome to use and balance. Your system for armor is nice, Wraith, because it is simple subtraction and not % based. Only question I have is when it comes to balance. It seems a dagger wouldn't be able to harm someone in plate, only high damage weapons would. In actuality, a dagger might be better at getting in the little vulnerable spots then something more unwieldy. How do you handle this?

It should still work decent in the system I use, because base damage is higher and goes up as you level (weapon type is less important). Although, I wonder if the mitigation by armor by may become meaningless at high levels.

[Wraith]

Only question I have is when it comes to balance. It seems a dagger wouldn't be able to harm someone in plate, only high damage weapons would. In actuality, a dagger might be better at getting in the little vulnerable spots then something more unwieldy. How do you handle this?

To answer your question is that a crit. doesn't do double damage it bypasses the armor all together giving the feel of what a crit. really means. It gets in that opening under the arm or under the breast plate, and then there is always the great sneak attack bonus.

richvalle I'm still working on that magic!:confused:

[richvalle]

richvalle I'm still working on that magic!:confused:

Yes... that is going to be tricky. That is a problem sometimes with taking a system and changing one thing. It throws other things out of wack.

What if spells don't scale as they go up in level? So a Fireball will always be 5d6, the first level at which you can cast it.

Down side, you will only get 1 MM. Hmm, thats not very good.

Cut damage spells in half (before saves)?

[Ntchwaidumela]

Right, but that means the only way you can damage someone in plate with a dagger would be to roll a 20.

That may be ok in some circumstances, but a level 15 and a level 1 character in this scenario would have the same chance to do damage (5%).

Also, this might mean that a level 1 character with a two-handed sword might be more powerful than a level 15 with a dagger (if they both wore plate).

Another way to deal with the magic issue would be to increase the affect of a saving throw or give players mitigation / resistance to magic as they level.

[richvalle]

Anyone else remember the weapon bonus to hit different armor types in the old dnd version? I think it was 1st ed. Maybe 2nd.

You could dig that up and check it out. There was also that whole weapon speed thing.

Tricky stuff.

rv

[Wraith]

Right, but that means the only way you can damage someone in plate with a dagger would be to roll a 20.

That may be ok in some circumstances, but a level 15 and a level 1 character in this scenario would have the same chance to do damage (5%).

This is not true. A person with sneack attack, a high damage bonus, or a magical weapon would be able to over ride the damage reduction. The point of this varient is to even out the damage side of the playing field. A weapon only ever deals so much damage, so armor only ever absorbs so much damage. The differance between 1st and 15th level comes in to effect at how meny times they are hit. In a fight between a 15th level character wearing full plate and a 1st level character wearing full plate, the 15th level character will hit more. In the end dealing more damage and either killing the 1st level character or damaging his armor to the point it falls apart. The 15th level character's longsword still does the same amount of damage as the 1st level character's longsword, it all depends on how the character picks his feats. This makes weapon focus, weapon specialization, and the like feats more powerful, as well as toughness (which IMO was always really weak for a feat).


What if spells don't scale as they go up in level? So a Fireball will always be 5d6, the first level at which you can cast it.

Down side, you will only get 1 MM. Hmm, thats not very good.

Cut damage spells in half (before saves)?

I was thinking about making spell static but I was also think of making a static damage die for each level. Such as 1 at 0, 1d2 at 1st, 1d4 at 2nd, 1d6 at 3rd, 1d8 at 4th, 1d10 at 5th, 2d6 at 6th, 2d8 at 7th, 2d10 at 8th, 4d6 at 9th. This would make the spells level the wizards weapon and he would choose which "weapon" (spell level) would best fit the senario. That would make the spellcasters weapon damage static as well. I would also probably use more rays and touch attacks so it is more dangerest since spellcasters have lower hit points. Its still under development so cut me some slack.:cool:

[Daeghrefn]

This is a very interesting concept. I have always thought that AC was an over-simplification of defense. Though as others have stated, it does keep combat moving.

I've played Palladium based games, including Rifts and Palladium fantasy. In there, you have some defensive options, including Block, Parry, Dodge and Roll. The only problem is, using a defensive option takes up one of your actions for the round, giving you less attacks (avg of 4 attacks per round).

Also in Palladium, armor is used differently. Armor is treated more like skills&options added in 2nd ed. The armor has a damage rating, and when an attack does not beat the AC rating, the armor takes damage. When the attack does beat the AC rating, the character takes the damage. The system was definitely fun to play, but at the same time it was a bit more cumbersome.

All in all, I think you have a great concept. I doubt that I would use it myself, but you should keep up the good work. You seriously should consider reading a Palladium Fantasy or Rifts book (combat section) and see what you think. It might give you some good ideas.

[Oberoten]

Right, but that means the only way you can damage someone in plate with a dagger would be to roll a 20.

That may be ok in some circumstances, but a level 15 and a level 1 character in this scenario would have the same chance to do damage (5%).

Also, this might mean that a level 1 character with a two-handed sword might be more powerful than a level 15 with a dagger (if they both wore plate).

Another way to deal with the magic issue would be to increase the affect of a saving throw or give players mitigation / resistance to magic as they level.

The way to go here would be either putting a crit to mean any hit with 10+ better roll than needed or getting rid of the crits and instead add damage for the difference. (IE +1 Damage for every 2, 3 or four you better the roll with basically symbolizing a better hit hitting a more vulnerable area.)