Making Maps in Advance (w Tokens, FoW, etc)

[Hawkwinter]

So. After doing a bit of research and reading and watching some videos, yesterday I took the plunge [or rather, dipped my feet], and put ~the $5.75 into a standard subscription to test it out (International purchases and exchange rates!).

So... I've installed the image improvement extension with the 3 layers.

I'd like to do like Hankerin is doing in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlzuB6RUdiQ) on Roll20, but in FG.
PlzuB6RUdiQ
Load up an image, plop down a bunch of terrain as tokens on the bottom layer and *make* a battle map in advance, complete with Fog of War, perhaps pre-load enemy NPC tokens & scatter terrain - and then somehow save that whole multilayered arrangement with the positions of everything so I can quickly pull it up when the time comes to use it with for my group - thus far I've been unable to figure out how.

Can somebody help a newbie out? How would I go about doing that?

[Zacchaeus]

You will need to start with a proper map which you either draw in another program or which you have found on the internet. The map drawing tools in FG are limited to pen and ink type drawings. Once you have your image loaded in FG if you want to add furniture etc then you'll need to find some tokens to represent them. You can place tokens directly onto the map in either the first or second layer of the layers extension.

For encounter (i.e. monsters) you do that by creating encounters. Pre-place the NPCs from the encounters on your map and then close the encounter. You can link the encounter into a Story entry or you can drag the Story entry to the map to create a pin so that you can open it quickly during the game session. You place the encounter by clicking the down arrow on the encounter sheet (bottom left). I believe in Roll20 all the tokens remain on the map at all times but FG handles it differently as described above. Encounters placed like this persist when you exit FG, you can even exit in the middle of an encounter and come back to where you left off next session. You can also during preparation add the masking to the map. During the session you can unmask the portions of the map that the PCs visit. Masking also persists over sessions.

Combat in FG is all handled via the Combat Tracker, so you need to become familiar with it.

If you say what ruleset you are using I can point you to some helpful resources that you might want to read up on.

[Hawkwinter]

You will need to start with a proper map which you either draw in another program or which you have found on the internet. The map drawing tools in FG are limited to pen and ink type drawings. Once you have your image loaded in FG if you want to add furniture etc then you'll need to find some tokens to represent them. You can place tokens directly onto the map in either the first or second layer of the layers extension.Yeah. That's what I was thinking I want to do. I just want to make a bunch of terrain pieces as tokens as well. So a pit, or a section of hallway might be a png-based image transparency I'm pulling up as a token, and then scaling and rotating to whatever size I need, and plopping it down on the bottom layers.

In theory that should work, no? (I havent tried it with terrain image tokens yet but it seems like it should work like furniture).


For encounter (i.e. monsters) you do that by creating encounters. Pre-place the NPCs from the encounters on your map and then close the encounter. You can link the encounter into a Story entry or you can drag the Story entry to the map to create a pin so that you can open it quickly during the game session. You place the encounter by clicking the down arrow on the encounter sheet (bottom left). I believe in Roll20 all the tokens remain on the map at all times but FG handles it differently as described above. Encounters placed like this persist when you exit FG, you can even exit in the middle of an encounter and come back to where you left off next session. You can also during preparation add the masking to the map. During the session you can unmask the portions of the map that the PCs visit. Masking also persists over sessions.How do I make things persist between sessions, exactly? If I have furniture and the like, do I make those part of the encounter as well? (That's what I'm stuck on and why I made the thread). Is there a link to a tutorial about this you could point me to?


Combat in FG is all handled via the Combat Tracker, so you need to become familiar with it.Noted. I'll have to familiarize myself with that.


If you say what ruleset you are using I can point you to some helpful resources that you might want to read up on.To start I'll probably mostly just monkey around with the free 5e stuff and the UA module on DMs Guild. But I expect if we like it I'll quickly end up buying the paid modules for convenience rather than type stuff in.

Gonna need to figure out how to get the extension for my houserules I started on working though. I tried to add another attribute to characters (a scaling per-level bonus equal to level/4 rounded up, and while the box and number show up on the character sheet, the label does not, and it throws errors if I try to access it anywhere else. Changing proficiency from a derived number to a flat number was easy. Adding a variable level-bonus that applies to all checks and saves and attack rolls and spell DCs and AC for everyone, less so.

[damned]

Welcome Hawkwinter - separate layers that you can place tokens on dont really exist in Fantasy Grounds. There is an Enhanced layers extension - that does enable this stuff - with some caveats - that you might look into. Tokens on maps will persist between sessions but cannot be exported in place on maps into a module.
The mapping features of FG are not as good as those on Maptools or Roll20, but character sheets and combat are way better.

Making changes to Character sheets should be done in an extension or your ruleset will get overwritten bu updates or it will become buggy over time as CoreRPG updates and your version does not.
Making an additional field and label on a Character sheet is pretty straight forward - once you work out how things are done in the XML - but changing something that applies to checks/saves/rolls is totally non trivial as there is so much code defining these actions in so many places. Perhaps investigating using an Effect to manage this might be easier.

[Zacchaeus]

For the furniture just open the module that your tokens are in and drag them onto the map. They will remain there between sessions.

In theory sections of terrain should work but remember this all has to be shared with players and png files take up a lot of memory and could impact on player's memory (FG can only use about 3GB of memory) so I would go easy on that.

[Hawkwinter]

The mapping features of FG are not as good as those on Maptools or Roll20, but character sheets and combat are way better.
Hmm. TBH I'm breand new to VTTs. I used to build levels for other games I've played, (NWN and Graal online) back in the day, and have dabbled a bit in some paid graphic design / illustration work - but my experience with gaming has all involved printing it out.

You've heard of the basic drag & drop & scale workflow I'm looking for for terrain. I may also lean gridless. I *COULD* make a colossal PSD file with all my assets and then make duplicates of it for each new battlemap I decide to use, but that would be cumbersome and would quickly consume far too much harddrive space. What's your opinion from experience for what tool I should use to build my gridless battle maps quickly? Would you suggest maptools?


Making changes to Character sheets should be done in an extensionYep. Gathered that. That's the approach I've taken. Is there a way to do an extension without replacing entire XML and LUA files, for when you only want to change a single section or function, or no?


Making an additional field and label on a Character sheet is pretty straight forward - once you work out how things are done in the XML.Agreed. That part took me about an hour, including the time trying to figure out where it was.


but changing something that applies to checks/saves/rolls is totally non trivial as there is so much code defining these actions in so many places.Yeah. That's where it's throwing errors. When I try to have it grab the information from the character sheet to add into a calculation, it tells me the value is nil. I thought I was storing on the character the same way as profbonus. That's what I was trying to do, but evidently not. I'm not familiar with all of the functions. I'm also not super familiar with Lua or it's functions, but the syntax difference didn't take too much to get used to.


Perhaps investigating using an Effect to manage this might be easier.I haven't looked at effects, because I had assumed they're applied to individual targets, and it seemed far to cumbersome an idea to have to apply an effect (or several) to literally every creature mid-session. I'll check them out to see if I'm wrong about that. But if not, changing the code for where the field is stored and how things are calculated seems way more manageable.


FG can only use about 3GB of memory [It's only a 32bit application] - so I would go easy on that.
Oh. I hadn't even considered that. Thanks for the heads-up, If I don't switch to a different workflow for quick mapmaking, I'll be sure to run the numbers on my maps and make sure I don't overdo it on image filesizes or number of placeable chunks of terrain.

[LordEntrails]

If you are looking to make maps in advance, rather than on the fly, I really think you want to use a map making program for each "setup". I'm not sure where making a map/image for TAvern A and for Tavern B from a set of tiles/assets is going take up any more hard drive space than building it in FG (though it might).

But, though you can do it with the enhanced layers extension, FG really isn't optimized for map making. I use CC3+ myself. You can see a good listing of various map making programs here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20879-Map-Making-Software-summary

[Zacchaeus]

Images should be kept below about 1Mb (for faster uploading to players) and resolution should be not higher than 2048x 2048 if you can manage it. You can exceed these 'limits' but not too often and not with too many images. You don't need super high quality maps for VTT, as long as you have something which the players can battle monsters on. Oh, and they should be jpg files.

[Hawkwinter]

Images should be kept below about 1Mb (for faster uploading to players) and resolution should be not higher than 2048x 2048 if you can manage it. You can exceed these 'limits' but not too often and not with too many images. You don't need super high quality maps for VTT, as long as you have something which the players can battle monsters on. Oh, and they should be jpg files.I was going to make them .jpg files. Why the resolution limit, out of curiosity? the clients only load one image at a time, as you're sharing them, right?


If you are looking to make maps in advance, rather than on the fly, I really think you want to use a map making program for each "setup". I'm not sure where making a map/image for TAvern A and for Tavern B from a set of tiles/assets is going take up any more hard drive space than building it in FG (though it might).I was thinking of how bloated PSD files can get when you start having lots of smart objects and layers loaded in that you're not using. But I might be able to come up with a more space-efficient workflow if I decide to go that route.


But, though you can do it with the enhanced layers extension, FG really isn't optimized for map making. I use CC3+ myself. You can see a good listing of various map making programs here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20879-Map-Making-Software-summaryOoh. Thanks for the comparison chart.

I tried out CC3+ one time, a friend had a copy. Monkeyed with it for about an hour, couldn't get results I was happy with. But we were working in the large scale map mode, not the closeup battle map mode.

[Zacchaeus]

Anything shared with the players is loaded into memory at their end in an uncompressed format. This eats memory and might also cause slowdown in things like unmasking and other undesirable effects

[LordEntrails]

Yea, 2048 pixel size recommendation is because FG opens it up fully uncompressed in the client, images of this size (depending upon number of colors and other things) can take up lots of the 3 GB process size limit (remember, memory usage is larger than file size).

Don't know PhotoShop at all, so can't add anything of value to that :)

Biggest things to think about if you ever go back to trying CC3/CC3+,
- it's a vector based CAD program, so you move a line's control points, not change the color of pixels
- workflow is action>object
- photoshop layers are CC sheets
- CC layers are groups

The best advice is to go over the tutorials step by step. They really don't take long and they get your into the workflow and mindset really well. I've even gone back and re-done tutorials because it had been so long since I had done a type of map or a technique.

[Bidmaron]

Trenloe advises here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42018-Memory-usage&p=372687&highlight=#post372687) only 1024x1024. The issue is bandwidth as much as memory usage.

[LordEntrails]

Trenloe advises here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42018-Memory-usage&p=372687&highlight=#post372687) only 1024x1024. The issue is bandwidth as much as memory usage.
Yes! Where did this wrong number get stuck in my mind?

Who has been playing with my mind!!! One of you have been messing with me psychically haven't you?

Thanks Birdmaron.

[Bidmaron]

Hey, I can barely remember what I ate for breakfast, so I will be the last to accuse anyone of tampering with my mind. Embarrassing honestly. I don't know how Trenloe does it. But I do hear AIs have fairly decent memory....

[damned]

Trenloe advises here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42018-Memory-usage&p=372687&highlight=#post372687) only 1024x1024.

Are you sure?

[Zacchaeus]

The limits are 1Mb file size and 2048x2048 resolution. These aren't hard limits but recommended.

[damned]

What's your opinion from experience for what tool I should use to build my gridless battle maps quickly? Would you suggest maptools?

For using existing tile assets this app is very good: https://www.mapeditor.org/


Yep. Gathered that. That's the approach I've taken. Is there a way to do an extension without replacing entire XML and LUA files, for when you only want to change a single section or function, or no?

Merge rules can be used for any named XML objects.


Agreed. That part took me about an hour, including the time trying to figure out where it was.

Yeah. That's where it's throwing errors. When I try to have it grab the information from the character sheet to add into a calculation, it tells me the value is nil. I thought I was storing on the character the same way as profbonus. That's what I was trying to do, but evidently not. I'm not familiar with all of the functions. I'm also not super familiar with Lua or it's functions, but the syntax difference didn't take too much to get used to.

If it keeps telling you its nil your syntax is wrong and its not finding your changes/values. It is generally better (more reliable) to grab the values from the database rather than a Window reference as the database path is always the same but the window path can be different depending on where you are calling the action from and how you have written it.


I haven't looked at effects, because I had assumed they're applied to individual targets, and it seemed far to cumbersome an idea to have to apply an effect (or several) to literally every creature mid-session. I'll check them out to see if I'm wrong about that. But if not, changing the code for where the field is stored and how things are calculated seems way more manageable.

Monsters typically dont have levels so I assumed you are making this change for PCs? Apply an effect to the PCs with no expiration.


Oh. I hadn't even considered that. Thanks for the heads-up, If I don't switch to a different workflow for quick mapmaking, I'll be sure to run the numbers on my maps and make sure I don't overdo it on image filesizes or number of placeable chunks of terrain.

All the image sizes being thrown around are recommendations and not hard and fast rules. They are pretty good recommendations but they can be exceeded sometimes.

I generally keep around 100 tokens in my token folder.
I keep images of people/scenes/items etc to less than 800px in either direction and 50-70% jpg.
I keep maps to 40-70% jpg and limit their size.
If I have an important map, that is referred to often, and it would really benefit from being larger - it might be bigger than 2048 pixels but that is uncommon.

[Trenloe]

Trenloe advises here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42018-Memory-usage&p=372687&highlight=#post372687) only 1024x1024. The issue is bandwidth as much as memory usage.
Err, no not at all. I don't even mention image resolution in that post, I only mention file size.

Why, oh why, is it so hard for this community to not remember the general image recommendations?

1) Image RESOLUTION should be 2048x2048 pixels or less. This directly effects the amount of RAM the image will use in FG.
2) File SIZE should be 1MB or less. This directly effects the amount of time it takes to share with players.

#1 is more important than #2 as too much memory uses causes crashes. But #2 is more obvious as it causes in game delays.

Can people who regularly post on these forums and make recommendations please remember these two details? It's really not that hard. Thanks very much. :)

[Bidmaron]

Sorry Trenloe

[Nylanfs]

It's not our fault we don't have infallible computer AI memory like you do. :)

[Hawkwinter]

https://www.mapeditor.org/ Thanks! I hadn't heard of that one, I'll have to check it out.


Merge rules. I will have to look into those.


If it keeps telling you its nil your syntax is wrong and its not finding your changes/values. It is generally better (more reliable) to grab the values from the database rather than a Window reference as the database path is always the same but the window path can be different depending on where you are calling the action from and how you have written it.AH! I think you've pointed me in the right direction! I haven't found anywhere explaining how the database is populated in the 5e ruleset and had assumed it was parsing the character sheets in xml, reading all of the fields by name, and then saving them. If thats not the case, I need to figure out how to get my sheet values to store in the DB before I call it.


Monsters typically dont have levels so I assumed you are making this change for PCs? Apply an effect to the PCs with no expiration.Like for Proficiency bonus calculations, the score applies to monsters and NPCs as well, with CR in place of level. I understand that I will have to figure it out for NPCs and Monsters separately from PCs, but it absolutely applies to several stats for every single creature in the campaign, PC or otherwise.


All the image sizes being thrown around are recommendations Yeah, I got that. I'll keep it in mind. How many pixels do you guys usually use for a medium size creature? Where I'm going gridless, all my combat tokens and maps are gonna need to be standardized to a set PPI value. Do you guys do 100ppi? 200ppi?


Misc. Memory Management adviceThanks!

[damned]

Hi Hawkwinter

Have a look at an existing extension - a nice easy one is the Hero Points for 5e and you can see an example of a merge rule in action.

Your data from the character sheet is being stored in the db.xml as soon as you make changes. You can reference data in either the character sheet or in the database. You will find it easier over the long term to reference the db. Give a field a unique (or nearly unique) value and then use Find in Files to find it. Then back search on the data type/class/string etc to find all the components.

You will have some work cut out for you - but it is absolutely possible to do what you want. Definitely do this in an extension - it will save you lots of angst later on.

More typically people are using something closer to 50px for a medium sized token - eg a characters token/pog/portrait. Others do use higher res. I tend to aim for fast :)

[donpaulo]

Keeping the map file size within stated paraments will most certainly enhance your players enjoyment.

Big maps can take awhile to "pop up" and players unfamiliar with FG keyboard controls will have issues trying to navigate around.

Those of us around "awhile" can pretty much handle most stuff while playing, but newer folks who we often try to introduce to the site can be overwhelmed with the depth of the interface. IMHO

Smaller maps are better, but I think we all know the desire to have a BIG map with some meat on it :)