Unarmed and Improvised Weapon attacks

[rodney418]

I've been tearing my hair out trying to figure out an easy way for a character to do Unarmed attacks in the Combat Tracker. Same for Improvised Weapon attacks. What am I missing?

[Talyn]

Characters attack from the character sheet, first off. You would need to add Unarmed Attack and whichever applicable Improvised Weapon to the character's Combat tab.

If you're the GM, then sure, you'd do NPC attacks from the Combat Tracker. Same deal — add them to the NPC.

[Topdecker]

You just add a weapon to the character sheet - name it 'Fists' and have it do a str die for damage, set it to non-lethal melee, and drive on. I also adjust the bonus damage to a d4.

https://i.imgur.com/fvYkHTf.png

Improvised weapons... Do them much the same way....

https://i.imgur.com/TmgVcya.png

https://i.imgur.com/Eissa2e.png

NOTE: The -1 parry will have to be done manually.

Just remember that you have to have enough strength to wield any die type provided by a weapon. So, a character with a d6 in strength could not use a d8 improvised weapon.

There is no reason every character could not have these attacks built and ready - however, I've almost never seen them in use. The only time I've seen fists fly is when a martial artist cuts loose.

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[rodney418]

There is no reason every character could not have these attacks built and ready

That's exactly my point - why aren't they built into the ruleset already, since they are part of the rules? This just seems like a clumsy workaround.

Almost every character is capable of making Unarmed attacks, so why isn't that just automatically on the Combat tab of their character sheet already? Or at least capable of being dragged and dropped into it? It seems a real oversight that it isn't.

As regards it never happening... in my games there are frequently bar fights, people getting into arguments etc. so yeah, I do see this happening relatively frequently. Especially in a ruleset that's based on pulp fiction where fisticuffs are a common trope.

https://thegodlessmama.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/you_doodle_2017-01-26t04_08_07z.jpg?w=845

[damned]

That's exactly my point - why aren't they built into the ruleset already, since they are part of the rules? This just seems like a clumsy workaround.

Almost every character is capable of making Unarmed attacks, so why isn't that just automatically on the Combat tab of their character sheet already? Or at least capable of being dragged and dropped into it? It seems a real oversight that it isn't.

As regards it never happening... in my games there are frequently bar fights, people getting into arguments etc. so yeah, I do see this happening relatively frequently. Especially in a ruleset that's based on pulp fiction where fisticuffs are a common trope.

https://thegodlessmama.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/you_doodle_2017-01-26t04_08_07z.jpg?w=845


If thats your point why isnt that what you asked in the first place?
There are not pages and pages of people posting "where are unarmed attacks?".
The authors of the ruleset code it to the best of their knowledge/time/priority.
Anyway...
The best place to make your requests is here: https://savagefgii.idea.informer.com/
Ikael is very responsive but is only one man.
Let him know what would make your Savage Worlds experience better.

[rodney418]

Apparently I didn't make myself clear enough first time around. I assumed that since it was in the rules, and the rules are supposed to be reflected in the FG ruleset. that I was just not understanding how to do it, not that it wasn't there.

Yes, for clarity, this is what I want. A way to push a button for Unarmed Attack, just like I push a button for any other weapon attack. Also for Improvised Weapon, a way to automatically apply the special modifiers that go with it.

[damned]

Apparently I didn't make myself clear enough first time around. I assumed that since it was in the rules, and the rules are supposed to be reflected in the FG ruleset. that I was just not understanding how to do it, not that it wasn't there.

Yes, for clarity, this is what I want. A way to push a button for Unarmed Attack, just like I push a button for any other weapon attack. Also for Improvised Weapon, a way to automatically apply the special modifiers that go with it.

The posters above point out how to do it.
5e doesnt have an automatic unarmed entry on the char sheet.
Nor does Pathfinder or 3.5e.
You do something similar in almost every ruleset.

[Talyn]

Pathfinder does have it, probably because of all the "where's Unarmed Attack" posts over the years.

I'll do a test on my end to see if the SW ruleset can do it without additional scripting. However, keep in mind that if Ikael adds Unarmed Attack to the SWD Players Guide, he will have to add additional scripting to check for the Brawler and Martial Artist edges. Until that happens, players are responsible for doing that on their own.

(As an aside, I did add Unarmed to all the NPCs in the adventure I'm about to submit, and I'll go back and patch it into all the previous ones too.)

Update: I wasn't sure this would work, given how the underlying markup is laid out, but yes — Unarmed Attack does indeed function correctly as a melee attack, nonlethal damage and the ruleset correctly adapts it to whatever the character's Strength die type is. It's possible Ikael might see this thread, but he definitely looks at the Savage Worlds IdeaInformer (https://savagefgii.idea.informer.com/) site if you'd like to add that to the suggestion list?

[Trenloe]

Yes, for clarity, this is what I want. A way to push a button for Unarmed Attack, just like I push a button for any other weapon attack. Also for Improvised Weapon, a way to automatically apply the special modifiers that go with it.
To clarify - please add to the SW feature request list here: https://savagefgii.idea.informer.com/

[Ikael]

Thanks for the request and ticket to idea informer!

I was thinking about this and what do you think, would it be enough if you could drag and drop new weapons (improvised weapon/unarmed attack) into NPC combat tracker entry to add them for given CT entry to use?

In v4.6 version there are plenty features for CT and such idea is already planned for it.

[dimonic]

Apparently I didn't make myself clear enough first time around. I assumed that since it was in the rules, and the rules are supposed to be reflected in the FG ruleset. that I was just not understanding how to do it, not that it wasn't there.

Yes, for clarity, this is what I want. A way to push a button for Unarmed Attack, just like I push a button for any other weapon attack. Also for Improvised Weapon, a way to automatically apply the special modifiers that go with it.

One could add an item of equipment called "Unarmed attack", or "Fist", and set it up. Then any character could drag this item to their "inventory" and use it in an action as a push button.

[Topdecker]

One could add an item of equipment called "Unarmed attack", or "Fist", and set it up. Then any character could drag this item to their "inventory" and use it in an action as a push button.

This is what I have done in the past, but guess what, it gets really tiresome to do this year after year for character after character. All characters can conduct unarmed attacks - always. It seems like an inherent universal feature that could be coded once so thousands of customers don't have to do this dozens and dozens of times. It should just be part of the character sheet.

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[rodney418]

One could add an item of equipment called "Unarmed attack", or "Fist", and set it up. Then any character could drag this item to their "inventory" and use it in an action as a push button.

Yes, one could, and this one has, in multiple campaigns. But it should be there by default.

[dimonic]

I haven't seen it on any paper character sheet - and that to me would be a sure indicator that most games use it. That said, I think you could also get involved in the character sheet design part of FGU as well.

[kronovan]

TBH I wouldn't want unarmed strike on the Character Sheet by default. Savage Worlds is a multi-genre, toolkit RPG and there are some genres and settings where Players making an unarmed strike with their PC is an uncommon action at best. For some settings it would just end up as a weapons entry on the Combat tab that hardly ever got used, or worse; used in error. I'd rather it be added via an extension or other means, for specific setting DLCs where it's more applicable.

[Topdecker]

What's one more action on the action tab? It isn't like paper where you run out of room.

[kronovan]

Actions tab - what actions tab, there's no such thing? It's not the extra space it would occupy on the Combat tab, but if was there by default it'd be a weapon I'd delete off players character sheets to avoid them attacking with it in error. For almost all of my homebrews, players would only rarely ever use such an attack as at last resort. I can see where it might be more common in High Fantasy like D&D settings, but I don't run such settings with SWADE. So no, I wouldn't want an Unarmed strike on my character sheets as a default weapon entry. I'd much prefer the SWADE core ruleset to continue as it was with SWD and have such default weapons added by a setting DLC where and when it's appropriate.

[mac40k]

Don’t forget that if you are making an unarmed attack, you should also be using the Unarmed Defender modifier as well since the default rules assumes you are normally attacking with a weapon and Parry is calculated accordingly. The unarmed attack/unarmed defender situation is the exception, not the default.

[kronovan]

Don’t forget that if you are making an unarmed attack, you should also be using the Unarmed Defender modifier as well since the default rules assumes you are normally attacking with a weapon and Parry is calculated accordingly...

That's a good point and another reason I'm not keen on having Unarmed Strike on character sheets by default. IMO if it's there by default it'll probably be used more casually and more often than it makes sense to, with important play mechanics like Unarmed Defender more likely to be missed. With it being so uncommon in some genres, IMO it's better to handle it as a special case with manual rolls, so that such details are less likely to be overlooked.

A GM can export an XML character sheet template that contais Unarmed Strike as a default weapon iin seconds, which players or the GM can thereafter import with a few button clicks at the start of characcter creation. So TBH I don't really see the need to make it a default weapon entry on character sheets.

[Edit] As well, couldn't the new SWADE Archetype feature be a better tool for this? Perhaps for any Melee archetypse, Unarmed Strike could be a default entry for weapons. I haven't created any archetypse with default weapons, so I'm not a 100% about whether it supports it.

[Jiminimonka]

That's a good point and another reason I'm not keen on having Unarmed Strike on character sheets by default. IMO if it's there by default it'll probably be used more casually and more often than it makes sense to, with important play mechanics like Unarmed Defender more likely to be missed. With it being so uncommon in some genres, IMO it's better to handle it as a special case with manual rolls, so that such details are less likely to be overlooked.

A GM can export an XML character sheet template that contais Unarmed Strike as a default weapon iin seconds, which players or the GM can thereafter import with a few button clicks at the start of characcter creation. So TBH I don't really see the need to make it a default weapon entry on character sheets.

[Edit] As well, couldn't the new SWADE Archetype feature be a better tool for this? Perhaps for any Melee archetypse, Unarmed Strike could be a default entry for weapons. I haven't created any archetypse with default weapons, so I'm not a 100% about whether it supports it.

I just have a Unarmed Strike on one character and drag it onto new PCs when they are created.

But ooooh - what is SWADE Archetype feature of which you speak?

[kronovan]

But ooooh - what is SWADE Archetype feature of which you speak?

The [Archetypes] button is on the top left of the Character Selection Window. When you click it, the Archetypes list window is displayed which may or may not already have archetypes listed in it depending upon whether you have a module loaded that contains them. If you click the (+) add item button at the lower right of the Archetypes list window, it pops us a blank character sheets that looks like any other. The name you give that character sheet will be the name of you new archetype and anything you enter on that character sheet will be saved as defaults. So if you create an Unarmed Strike on the combats tab, any player using it that archetype will have it as a default weapon for their PC. While it may seem like a funny name, a GM could create an archetype named Unarmed Strike that only has that weapon as an entry - tested it and it works.

The technique you mentioned is another quick and easy weapon to add an Unarmed Strike to a character sheet. With a number of easy ways to add an Unarmed Strike weapon, I just don't see the need to add it as a default weapon on every character sheet.

[Jiminimonka]

The [Archetypes] button is on the top left of the Character Selection Window. When you click it, the Archetypes list window is displayed which may or may not already have archetypes listed in it depending upon whether you have a module loaded that contains them. If you click the (+) add item button at the lower right of the Archetypes list window, it pops us a blank character sheets that looks like any other. The name you give that character sheet will be the name of you new archetype and anything you enter on that character sheet will be saved as defaults. So if you create an Unarmed Strike on the combats tab, any player using it that archetype will have it as a default weapon for their PC. While it may seem like a funny name, a GM could create an archetype named Unarmed Strike that only has that weapon as an entry - tested it and it works.

The technique you mentioned is another quick and easy weapon to add an Unarmed Strike to a character sheet. With a number of easy ways to add an Unarmed Strike weapon, I just don't see the need to add it as a default weapon on every character sheet.

Ah I know about that. Seems to be underused in the products I have.

[kronovan]

Ah I know about that. Seems to be underused in the products I have.

Yep, the setting modules I own don't use them either, but I'm mostly a homebrewer and only own The Interface Zero 3 and Weird Wars II modules. The IZ3 module features character Origins, which seems like they'd be a good fit for Archetypes, but archetypes weren't used for those. IIRC archetypes have a bit more functionality for the D&D 5e and Pathfinder rulesets, but I've personally never used them with those. I often use them for my SWADE homebrews, even for my human-only settings due to often using Culture (similar to races) templates. I find them most handy when an archetype will have a variety of default features like edges, hindrances, skills, items, etc.

[Jiminimonka]

Seems to me we are lacking in Archetypes!

[mac40k]

I've used Archetypes to create pregen characters for a couple of one shots I created. That terminology seems to be consistent with the way PEG is using the word. I just got the pdf of the Super Powers Companion Archetypes (as a Kickstarter backer), which has multiple Seasoned pregen characters at the various power levels. Settings that have Archetypes available for purchase in the FG store appear to be a separate module and since I don't own any, I'm not sure if they appear when pressing the Archetype button on the Character Selection window or if you have to grab them from the module.