Necrotic Damage that reduces max hit points

[Axoid]

So I understand how this works in 5e. Let's say a character has 10 of 10max hit point. He takes 5 necrotic damage from a vampire spawn, now he has 5 hp remaining (10-5=5 remaining), but his max also drops to 5 (10max-5=5max) so he's still good (he has 5 of 5max hit points).

But the way FG does damage (adds up from zero) I think doesn't work for this. FG adds up your damage from 0, it doesn't subtract it from your max. So in the above example, the character has 10/10max and takes the 5 necrotic. His max drops from 10max-5=5max, but he now has 5 damage (0+5=5), meaning his damage=his max and he is unconscious.

I've worked this out in my head several times, am I missing something obvious? It seems to make a difference that FG adds up damage instead of subtracting it like from a pool of hps.

Thanks,

[Zacchaeus]

FG doesn't handle reductions to max damage automatically.

I'm not sure that I agree with your second paragraph. The initial 5 points of damage comes off the 10 and his max is reduced to 5. So he still has 5 hp left; you don't deduct (or add to wounds) the 5 again.

[Axoid]

FG doesn't handle reductions to max damage automatically.

I'm not sure that I agree with your second paragraph. The initial 5 points of damage comes off the 10 and his max is reduced to 5. So he still has 5 hp left; you don't deduct (or add to wounds) the 5 again.

I wasn't looking for a way to automate the max HP reduction, just trying to understand how to apply it in FG.

The effect states (paraphrased) the character takes the damage (so I put 5 in his wounds on the CT) and his max is also reduced by the same amount (so I reduce his 10 to 5 under MAX). According to FG now, he has 5 max HPs and his damage is at 5, so he is unconscious. In "real life", you subtract damage away from a pool of HPs, but in "virtual FG life" you add up damage from zero until you hit your max, then you fall unconscious.

[Axoid]

I think a good example is a wight, and since it's 5e SRD, I'll copy the text of it's Life Drain ability.


Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid slain by this attack rises 24 hours later as a zombie under the wight's control, unless the humanoid is restored to life or its body is destroyed. The wight can have no more than twelve zombies under its control at one time.

Multi Google-fu searches have shown that you take the damage, regardless of the CON save result. The CON save is a secondary effect that may also reduce your max HPs. The wording on the ability in FG at first led me to believe that the ONLY damage MAY be to the characters max HPs, but that is not the case. Damage is taken and then maybe max HP reduced, pending the CON save (in my examples I am assuming the CON save failed).

By FG adding up wounds instead of subtracting damage, it seems to cause an issue where you are prematurely knocked unconscious.

[damned]

I think a good example is a wight, and since it's 5e SRD, I'll copy the text of it's Life Drain ability.



Multi Google-fu searches have shown that you take the damage, regardless of the CON save result. The CON save is a secondary effect that may also reduce your max HPs. The wording on the ability in FG at first led me to believe that the ONLY damage MAY be to the characters max HPs, but that is not the case. Damage is taken and then maybe max HP reduced, pending the CON save (in my examples I am assuming the CON save failed).

By FG adding up wounds instead of subtracting damage, it seems to cause an issue where you are prematurely knocked unconscious.

If you only have 5hp and you are messing with wights... :)
To me it seems like you would not apply the damage until you do the CON check.
Fail the CON check - subtract the MAX hp.
Pass the CON check - take the damage only.

[Zacchaeus]

I'd advise against actually changing the max hp in the character sheet. I just use a negative temp hit points to indicate the lowering of the max hp. Obviously this involves a bit of arithmetic but it isn'y too complicated.

I'm still not really clear on what the difficulty is in your examples. Yes, if the max hp is reduced to a level which is less than wounds suffered then the PC will lose consciousness; but as soon as they recover sufficient wounds they will regain consciousness. So if the PC has 10 max hp and loses 5 and has 5 wounds they'll lose consciousness but once they regain 1 hp they'll have 4 wounds and 5 max hp

[Axoid]

The issue is how FG treats hit points and damage. If I'm playing pencil & paper D&D, hit points are a pool and as you take damage it's subtracted from that pool until you reach zero and fall unconscious.

In FG, hps are represented as a maximum, and as damage accumulates from zero to that maximum, you fall unconscious when your accumulated damage reaches the max. This causes issues with abilities like life drain, where you take damage AND reduce your max hit points.

In my pencil/paper example you are fine, but in the same situation using FG damage tracking, you fall unconscious.

If FG treated your hit points as a pool, and damage was subtracted from that pool until you reached zero (not added from zero until your max is reached), this becomes a non-issue.

[Zacchaeus]

Well, maybe it is my arithmetic then. But if I have 10 hit point max and I lose 5 and my max is reduced to 5 then whichever way I add or subtract it I'm at zero hit points.

I get the thing with wounds counting up since it seems that was the not the way most people do it on pen and paper. I always added wounds up so FG does what I have always done.

[Trenloe]

Just reduce the MAX HP by 5 (or whatever damage was done), don't apply any damage to wounds? Remember to keep track of what the original MAX HP was, so you can reset it after a long rest.

Not applying the XX damage directly to wounds, but to MAX HP (if the save is failed) is the equivalent of the pen-n-paper applying damage and reducing max HP - you're XX HP closer to death (equivalent to applying the damage) and your MAX HP are reduced as well. If the save is made, apply the damage to wounds as normal and don't reduce the MAX HP.

Would that work?

[Trenloe]

Well, maybe it is my arithmetic then. But if I have 10 hit point max and I lose 5 and my max is reduced to 5 then whichever way I add or subtract it I'm at zero hit points.
Yes it is your arithmetic! ;)

You apply the damage before the max HP is reduced. If you start with 10 HP and take 5 damage then you are at 5 HP remaining. If you fail the save your maximum HP possible is reduced to 5. You still have 5 HP remaining and you can't heal above 5 HP as that is your new maximum.

[Trenloe]

I've added a request to the wishlist for the ability to assign a modifier to the MAX HP field here: https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/fg2app?ia=115879 Go vote for it if you want it!

This will help for a few instances across different D20 based rulesets - Barbarian rage in 3.5E/Pathfinder springs to mind.

[Axoid]

Just reduce the MAX HP by 5 (or whatever damage was done), don't apply any damage to wounds? Remember to keep track of what the original MAX HP was, so you can reset it after a long rest.

Not applying the XX damage directly to wounds, but to MAX HP (if the save is failed) is the equivalent of the pen-n-paper applying damage and reducing max HP - you're XX HP closer to death (equivalent to applying the damage) and your MAX HP are reduced as well. If the save is made, apply the damage to wounds as normal and don't reduce the MAX HP.

Would that work?

Yes, it looks like that is the way to do it in FG. I'll just have to remember to

1. Roll the saving throw prior to rolling the necrotic damage and
2. Not dropping the necrotic damage dice on the target if it fails the save, but rather roll it and manually reduce MAX hps instead. If he passes the save you can just drag-drop the damage dice as normal.

Thanks all,

[Axoid]

I've added a request to the wishlist for the ability to assign a modifier to the MAX HP field here: https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/fg2app?ia=115879 Go vote for it if you want it!

This will help for a few instances across different D20 based rulesets - Barbarian rage in 3.5E/Pathfinder springs to mind.

Thanks, I voted for it.

[Thepaperclipkiller]

My party just had a situation like this all tonight! The problem it appears is that you have a max HP (lets say 20) and damage is supposed to subtract from it. You take 5 damage so you are at 15/20 and the health drain drains yours max HP the same amount so it is 15/15. With Fantasy Grounds, damage is calculated by starting at 0 and going up. So it is more at 0 damage/20HP. A small tweak (This actually would be a huge overhaul of the program I imagine) that could help on the User Interface side is instead of having it be damage is adding cumulatively in the "Wnd" section of the Combat Tracker, it is instead subtracting from say "CHP" (Current HP) and that number is typically at your max HP until you take damage. Then it won't run into the effect of "Hey I applied the damage by targeting and now I gotta undo it since they are now just reducing max HP." It would also help players be like "I have so and so HP left" instead of doing some math. Which is fine and usually easy, but it helps speed things up a bit when you can just glance instead of having to think it through.

If it was set up like that where the current HP is counted down, if there was an effect to reduce max HP, it could then be set up where for those kinds of life drain attacks you roll to hit. If there is a hit, have the player roll the save. If there was a success you roll the normal damage. If there was a failure you roll the damage that subtracts from current HP and from max HP.

This is me just spit balling an idea honestly, it would require a huge engine rewrite probably, or at least a rewrite to how damage works.

[Booker Grimm]

My party just had a situation like this all tonight! The problem it appears is that you have a max HP (lets say 20) and damage is supposed to subtract from it. You take 5 damage so you are at 15/20 and the health drain drains yours max HP the same amount so it is 15/15. With Fantasy Grounds, damage is calculated by starting at 0 and going up. So it is more at 0 damage/20HP. A small tweak (This actually would be a huge overhaul of the program I imagine) that could help on the User Interface side is instead of having it be damage is adding cumulatively in the "Wnd" section of the Combat Tracker, it is instead subtracting from say "CHP" (Current HP) and that number is typically at your max HP until you take damage. Then it won't run into the effect of "Hey I applied the damage by targeting and now I gotta undo it since they are now just reducing max HP." It would also help players be like "I have so and so HP left" instead of doing some math. Which is fine and usually easy, but it helps speed things up a bit when you can just glance instead of having to think it through.

If it was set up like that where the current HP is counted down, if there was an effect to reduce max HP, it could then be set up where for those kinds of life drain attacks you roll to hit. If there is a hit, have the player roll the save. If there was a success you roll the normal damage. If there was a failure you roll the damage that subtracts from current HP and from max HP.

This is me just spit balling an idea honestly, it would require a huge engine rewrite probably, or at least a rewrite to how damage works.


Oh this! We REALLY need this!

[BruceDM]

For the last 35 years I have always kept track of character HP the way FG does it. Am I the only one? I find it much faster to add then subtract, so I just added up wounds and dies when I got to my max HP.

As for the question, FG does not make accommodate for this mechanic so you will need to do multiple steps.
1. Save First
2a. If save Roll damage normally
2b. if fail roll damage with no target, and manually apply to characters max HP and note the characters normal max and set it back on long rest.

Someone suggested using negative temp HP. I haven't played with temp HP, does this actually work?

[paladiusdarkhelm]

Voted this one up. I've run into this condition several times while running games. One of these times we eneded up needing to reroll a players HP becuase where we tried to juggle and record the previous max got eaten by an accidental input that overwrote it.

[epithet]

I've added a request to the wishlist for the ability to assign a modifier to the MAX HP field here: https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/fg2app?ia=115879 Go vote for it if you want it!

This will help for a few instances across different D20 based rulesets - Barbarian rage in 3.5E/Pathfinder springs to mind.
I find it remarkable that this hasn’t been implemented yet. Automating hit point tracking is one of the core functions of FG, and the lack of a function to track temporary modifications to max HP seems like something that should have been fixed a while back.

[spoonhead]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I'm trying to sort out how life drain would apply in a particular situation. Most examples start off when the character is fully healed. In my situation, a character has 85 HP + 15 from Aid. He's gone in to combat, and over 5 rounds has taken damage and now only has 20 HP left. Along comes a Wraith who critically hits for 53 damage, and the player fails their CON save. What happens?

[Zacchaeus]

The player loses their remaining hit points and falls unconscious. Their maximum hit points is reduced from 85 to 32 (85-53)

[spoonhead]

Cheers. Sorry about this, but another player has a bit more HP left of 37 out of a total of 118, he got hit for just 20 life drain, would he just lose that from the total and reduce to 98?

[Bonkon]

Good Day Spoonhead :)
Sounds to me like you have it. I would say he now has 17 HPS left with a maximum of 98. :)

[Paperclipkiller]

Potential clarification since Fantasy Grounds does do HP different from how 5e traditionally does it. D&D 5e counts HP down to 0 while Fantasy Grounds counts damage up until it reaches the HP total. This makes HP reducing things slightly different from when you do it pen and paper vs on Fantasy Grounds. Since Fantasy Grounds counts up, if you have a max HP reduction effect, you DO NOT want to apply the HP reduction as damage. Instead just make a note of the normal Max HP and reduce the Max HP for the damage amount. If you apply the damage and do the max HP reduction in Fantasy Grounds, it is as if the damage was doubled.

Example. My test character has 34 max HP. She has not taken a single hit in combat so her "Wnd" on the Combat Tracker is 0. If she takes 20 damage from a Wraith, and fails the save, that means her Max HP is reduced. She now has 14 Max HP. Her "Wnd" is still at 0.