Cloud of Daggers spell question

[hehaub]

Here is the description from the PHB.
"You fill the air with spinning daggers in a cube 5 feet on each side, centered on a point you choose within range. A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there."

My DM is reading this as the thing occupying the space which I cast it into does not take damage until it is their turn. I can see that logic from reading it, but
it does not make sense to have to wait to deal the damage on a spell the creature is in until their turn begins. Has this been discussed before?

[JohnD]

Hmm... that's the way I read it too. Wonder if there's been a ruling on this somewhere.

Unless you count the fact that the creature "enters" the square when the spell is cast and it and the daggers occupy the same 5'.

[hehaub]

I have found many discussion threads on this topic, all saying different things. I just found what I would believe to be official ruling on it
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-april-2016
The last line makes it sound like they would take damage when it is cast and when they start their turn in it.
"In summary, a spell like moonbeam affects a creature when the creature passes into the spell’s area of effect and when the creature starts its turn there. You’re essentially creating a hazard on the battlefield."
Which does not sound right to me either, makes it a bit OP I think. I may be reading this wrong as well?

[hehaub]

So, reading this ruling again it says no, it does not take damage on casting it. It only takes damage on the start of its turn if it is in the cloud. It can also take more damage if it has moved out of the cloud and is pushed back into it by someone else on their turn. So, I am reading this as my DM is correct and I do not deal damage on my turn, but wait until the start of their turn to deal the first damage if I cast it on their square.

This makes me wonder if I cast CoD on its square and the next person casts thunderwave on it before it has a turn, knocking it out of the space... then by these rules it would not take damage?

[Bonkon]

"In summary, a spell like moonbeam affects a creature when the creature passes into the spell’s area of effect and when the creature starts its turn there. You’re essentially creating a hazard on the battlefield."

I would think the push from the Thunderwave could be defined as "passes into the spells area of effect" and cause damage at that point.

Bonk

[LordEntrails]

My understanding is the spell does not deal damage when cast. And if a creature is moved out of the space before it's turn, it stil doesn't take damage.

The reasoning I use to justify this is that the daggers take time to cause damage, and that not enough time has elapsed until the start of the targets turn for that damage has occurred. Of course, their are big holes in that reasoning (such as taking damage when entering). But of course rounds and turns and all that are just artificial constructs to help us tell our stories, so as long as any rule/ruling is consistent between sessions and with similar effects, then it doesn't matter too much which way you play it :)

[damned]

So long as you only apply the damage when you cast it or on their first turn with its field it has no mechanical difference except another actor may attack and kill it before it takes damage in the second instance.

[Nickademus]

So long as you only apply the damage when you cast it or on their first turn with its field it has no mechanical difference except another actor may attack and kill it before it takes damage in the second instance.

What people are pointing out is that a victim of the spell can be moved by someone else prior to their turn and not take damage. Thus dealing damage immediately deprives and ally of being able to 'pull them out of the way', given that rounds are virtually simultaneous.

[RunningHill]

It would be one of the few times the rules takes account of that things in a round happens at the same time. Don't think that was intended.

[hehaub]

What people are pointing out is that a victim of the spell can be moved by someone else prior to their turn and not take damage. Thus dealing damage immediately deprives and ally of being able to 'pull them out of the way', given that rounds are virtually simultaneous.

I could think of other things that could be affected: Pack tactics, Attack of opportunity, etc. So, I think timing is important to determine, in which case this one is vague to me.

[Caelen]

If you're looking for an official ruling, you need look no further than the Sage Advice Compendium (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-september-2017).

Bold emphasis added to clarify the answer to your question about Cloud of Daggers.


Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature?

The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer.

Some spells and other game features create an area of effect that does something when a creature enters that area for the first time on a turn or when a creature starts its turn in that area. On the turn when you cast such a spell, you’re primarily setting up hurt for your foes on later turns. Moonbeam, for example, creates a beam of light that can damage a creature who enters the beam or who starts its turn in the beam.

Here are some spells with the same timing as moonbeam for their areas of effect:

blade barrier
cloudkill
cloud of daggers
Evard’s black tentacles
forbiddance
moonbeam
sleet storm
spirit guardians

Reading the description of any of those spells, you might wonder whether a creature is considered to be entering the spell’s area of effect if the area is created on the creature’s space. And if the area of effect can be moved—as the beam of moonbeam can—does moving it into a creature’s space count as the creature entering the area? Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.

Entering such an area of effect needn’t be voluntary, unless a spell says otherwise. You can, therefore, hurl a creature into the area with a spell like thunderwave. We consider that clever play, not an imbalance, so hurl away! Keep in mind, however, that a creature is subjected to such an area of effect only the first time it enters the area on a turn. You can’t move a creature in and out of it to damage it over and over again on the same turn.

In summary, a spell like moonbeam affects a creature when the creature passes into the spell’s area of effect and when the creature starts its turn there. You’re essentially creating a hazard on the battlefield.