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MadBeardMan
August 8th, 2019, 22:51
I'm looking for a Developer to create a new Theme for WOiN N.E.W. and a Theme for N.O.W. it'll be an extension to the existing Ruleset. I'll give full credit as I think it needs a new look as well.

irishrelief
August 8th, 2019, 22:55
I'm looking for a Developer to create a new Theme for WOiN N.E.W. and a Theme for N.O.W. it'll be an extension to the existing Ruleset. I'll give full credit as I think it needs a new look as well.

I really wish I understood development better, and wasnt deploying. If there is a good place to get some basics down I'll attempt stuff after deployed and upload when I have internet.

As for judge dredd I don't see any real differences other than the challenge hurdles are slightly different. Both felt like they played the same but I never put them side by side.

MadBeardMan
August 8th, 2019, 22:59
Learning how to create a theme is a time-consuming thing. I write code, I don't do graphics - but at the time of NEW I couldn't find anyone to help out.

If you wanted to learn how to write extensions (such as themes) this is the best place to look at:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?44-Armory-(campaigns-modules-rulesets-maps-and-tokens)

Cheers,
MBM

MadBeardMan
August 15th, 2019, 16:16
Morning All,

So far today done:

[Updated] Combat Tracker. This was updated before, but only sent to the TEST server, I'll add it to the LIVE server.
[Fixed] Made sure PSI was defaulted to 0 and REP defaulted to 3
[Updated] The ''Luck Dice Pool Value' setting now Defaults fo 'Luck Dice' (was defaulting to Luck Attribute)**
[Updated] The themes for NEW and Xenomorph have been updated to remove some warnings

I've discovered there's another Errata after 1.2 was released, so I'm working on some of the things found here:

https://www.woinrpg.com/errata

I'm going to send what I have done tonight, then I'll start working on the next update if people can let me know what they need, as I'm going to work on the NOW book.

Cheers,
MBM



** If at the moment the LUCK Dice Pool shows the 'LUCK attribute' then go into the Options and find the 'Luck Dice Pool Value', change it to 'Luck Dice' and then reset the LUCK dice pool.

Trenloe
August 15th, 2019, 16:19
It was a work of love and then hatred to be honest.
I know that feeling all very well. Keep doing what you can - it's really appreciated.

irishrelief
August 15th, 2019, 16:21
Morning All,

So far today done:

[Updated] Combat Tracker. This was updated before, but only sent to the TEST server, I'll add it to the LIVE server.
[Fixed] Made sure PSI was defaulted to 0 and REP defaulted to 3
[Updated] The ''Luck Dice Pool Value' setting now Defaults fo 'Luck Dice' (was defaulting to Luck Attribute)**
[Updated] The themes for NEW and Xenomorph have been updated to remove some warnings

I've discovered there's another Errata after 1.2 was released, so I'm working on some of the things found here:

https://www.woinrpg.com/errata

I'm going to send what I have done tonight, then I'll start working on the next update if people can let me know what they need, as I'm going to work on the NOW book.

Cheers,
MBM



** If at the moment the LUCK Dice Pool shows the 'LUCK attribute' then go into the Options and find the 'Luck Dice Pool Value', change it to 'Luck Dice' and then reset the LUCK dice pool.

Glad you're getting things moving. As we discussed there is the actions tab which will not allow for items to be placed in the weapons or PSI powers sections. Nor will it allow custom items to be created there. How hard would it be to set up a luck die button to add to any roll? I know some spots of the sheet have it already.

I would hold off on OLD for a bit too, currently there is an errata in the works.

MadBeardMan
August 15th, 2019, 16:26
Glad you're getting things moving. As we discussed there is the actions tab which will not allow for items to be placed in the weapons or PSI powers sections. Nor will it allow custom items to be created there. How hard would it be to set up a luck die button to add to any roll? I know some spots of the sheet have it already.

I would hold off on OLD for a bit too, currently there is an errata in the works.

I'm not working on OLD, I've waited for well over 18 months for the updated 1.2. Once 1.2 is released I think it will have all the updates required, I'm hoping NOW is fully upto date.

Regarding a button to roll a Luck Dice to any roll, is this rather than setting the number of dice for the skill/action rolls? How would that button allow you to roll 2 Luck Dice?

I'll look at the action tab, normally if the weapon is dropped into the Equipment list, it adds the attack, same with Pisonic attacks.

Cheers,
MBM

Santyagoffg
August 15th, 2019, 20:01
For me 2 thinks are essential.
1. Possibility to ad new skills and exploits
2. Chart for star ships

MadBeardMan
August 17th, 2019, 21:12
Hi All,

Sending over tonight (in a few minutes) an update, this will be 1.0.8.

It's got some fixes I've made this week, that fix the theme issues (since CoreRPG had some updates).

[FIXED] Theme issues with both NEW Theme and Xenomorphs theme
[UPDATED] CoreRPG updates now synced
[FIXED] Combat Tracker issues
[FIXED] REP now starts at 3
[UPDATED] The ''Luck Dice Pool Value' setting now Defaults fo 'Luck Dice' (was defaulting to Luck Attribute)

Have confirmed you can create your own Skills and Exploits.

There's a known issue you can't add your own Weapon/PSI, there's a work-around, add any Weapon/PSI from the data, then the right-click will work (it doesn't show unless there's data). You can then remove the unwanted Equipment/PSI actions.

I'll work on that after next week as I'm on Holiday most of next week.

I'll also make sure that if I weapon is deleted, the action is deleted.

This should go live on Tuesday.

Cheers,
MBM

Santyagoffg
August 20th, 2019, 20:57
Now I am really angry!
After last update all themes for woin disapears. There are no skills and exploits buttons as well.
What the hell you doing?!

Trenloe
August 20th, 2019, 21:00
Now I am really angry!
After last update all themes for woin disapears. There are no skills and exploits buttons as well.
What the hell you doing?!
Please be a bit less angry in your posts. It's great that you've posted that there's an issue. I'm sure it wasn't deliberate and so getting angry and insulting isn't going to help. There are multiple people and technologies involved in an update, so there's no use pointing the blame at one person without evidence. I'm sure it'll be looked at ASAP. Thanks.

MadBeardMan
August 20th, 2019, 21:04
Themes are still there? Which theme, there's one for NEW and one for Xenomorphs.

I'm just looking into why Skills and Exploits have vanished, they should very much be there.....

MadBeardMan
August 20th, 2019, 21:11
I've checked, they're all there, have you checked the NEW module is loaded?

Go into Library and then see it's there, for some reason it's removed it from my loaded libraries.

Santyagoffg
August 20th, 2019, 21:22
I have access to NEW module and all books I bought. But when I am trying to load or create new game there are no WOIN themes in campaign details window, and game starts with standard core rule set theme. Butons for skills and exploits are simple invisible. When i click in on empty spaces skills window opens but still cant edit.

Santyagoffg
August 20th, 2019, 21:24
I am really sorry for my hard words in the beginning but I wait very long for this update and effect is really disappointing

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2019, 21:28
It looks like there is a ruleset, an extension and 3 modules included in the ENPWOINNEW product that you purchased.

Can you make sure that the WOIN NEW extension is enabled for your campaign in the FG launch screen?

Regards,
JPG

MadBeardMan
August 20th, 2019, 21:33
I am really sorry for my hard words in the beginning but I wait very long for this update and effect is really disappointing

It *looks* like the ruleset name has changed, which is why a) the module wasn't loaded automatically and b) the extensions don't match. I'm looking into it.

Santyagoffg
August 20th, 2019, 21:36
I create can create new WOIN game. The only problem is lack of woin themes to select and game is launching with core rule set theme. Same like all furthest camains.

MadBeardMan
August 20th, 2019, 21:50
I am really sorry for my hard words in the beginning but I wait very long for this update and effect is really disappointing

JPG has found it, it's my mistake. One Drive corrupted all my folders, so I reset them up and built the NEW one wrong.

Many apologies.

Regarding the Skill/Exploit missing, sometime ago I was asked to remove them, can't remember why (think as they're only needed in char generation), I'll get them added in by default as you can always untick them.

Cheers,
MBM

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2019, 22:13
Santyagoffg,

Can you try running a new Check for Updates, and then try running WOIN again?

I believe that MadBeardMan and I were able to work together to clean things up.

Regards,
JPG

Santyagoffg
August 20th, 2019, 22:23
Both themes for WOIN are appear. Problem looks solved.
Thx for fast reaction.

MadBeardMan
August 20th, 2019, 22:33
Both themes for WOIN are appear. Problem looks solved.
Thx for fast reaction.

Thanks for letting us know. It won't happen again.

I'll add the Skills/Exploits back in on the next update. I'm on Holiday/Vacation from tomorrow (why do these issue only occur on the day before I go away?) and when I come back (2 weeks) I'll be working on NOW and thus updating the ruleset with the latest errata etc.

Cheers,
MBM

Servus Clementis
August 27th, 2019, 04:55
Will I be able to run O.L.D. games using the N.E.W. DLC in FG? I've only just bought the pdf rules for O.L.D. and don't know know how interoperable they are with N.E.W. (although I plan on getting that soon).

Santyagoffg
August 27th, 2019, 08:58
Probably it is possible. I am transferring N.O.W and it is quite works. Main problem is to transfer additional skills and exploits. So far there is no easy way to do it. The only way is edit new exploits directly on PC's carts. I hope that MBM will repair it soon.

Kosh Kaltu
September 5th, 2019, 22:57
It's good to see you back again, MBM. I'm sorry to hear about all the problems you've faced recently. I'm still monitoring this thread because I have a great deal of interest in seeing this product succeed. I know what it can be like to fall out of love with a task and have to slog my way through to the finish. I'm wishing you all the best and truly hope that things get easier for you in your personal life. Been fighting cancer, myself, since 2016 and I know it's a full time job for those around you when it happens. I am plagued by kidney stones too - so I can sympathize with you there. It's definitely all part of the Great Suck. To have to deal with other life issues on top of that? Too much.

I'll keep checking in and seeing what all has progressed as time passes. Don't know whether you are the religious type, but I'll keep you in my prayers just the same.

Take care and have faith. We're rooting for you.

~Dan

MadBeardMan
September 6th, 2019, 11:30
It's good to see you back again, MBM. I'm sorry to hear about all the problems you've faced recently. I'm still monitoring this thread because I have a great deal of interest in seeing this product succeed. I know what it can be like to fall out of love with a task and have to slog my way through to the finish. I'm wishing you all the best and truly hope that things get easier for you in your personal life. Been fighting cancer, myself, since 2016 and I know it's a full time job for those around you when it happens. I am plagued by kidney stones too - so I can sympathize with you there. It's definitely all part of the Great Suck. To have to deal with other life issues on top of that? Too much.

I'll keep checking in and seeing what all has progressed as time passes. Don't know whether you are the religious type, but I'll keep you in my prayers just the same.

Take care and have faith. We're rooting for you.

~Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your words there. I am free of Kidney stones for the moment, though I've had pain in my left lower back this last week, so another might have appeared :(

Now regarding the Exploits, I see something has broken it, I'll get it fixed next week to allow you to create and edit your own Explolits and I'll check skills. I've been reading through NOW, there's nothing too bad inside it that I've seen. I've also been working on the latest errata. Expect an update in around 2 weeks.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
November 22nd, 2019, 21:51
We've been playing WOIN NEW with the ruleset, works well - thank you MBM!

Has anyone tried running Judge Dredd (https://www.worldsof2000adrpg.com) with this ruleset? It uses WOIN, and the character sheet is essentially identical. I haven't done a thorough comparison of what changes, if any would be needed to run JD.

Related, is it possible to change the visuals of the character sheet to customize to Judge Dredd character sheet (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58811039414fb59bc00ce9d7/t/5af16d6e03ce648f197df319/1525771651619/2000adrpg_character_sheets.pdf), or is that locked?

irishrelief
November 22nd, 2019, 22:03
You can change the style for yourself only. Rebellion has the liscence for 2000AD. I almost exclusively used the WOIN system here for 2000AD. I manually added the needed items and ogl stuff.

Magnimost
November 22nd, 2019, 22:22
You can change the style for yourself only. Rebellion has the liscence for 2000AD. I almost exclusively used the WOIN system here for 2000AD. I manually added the needed items and ogl stuff.

Ah, good to hear it can be changed, heard some rulesets have locked it.

Is there a quick guide on how to do that? Is there a JPEG to edit, and rest is done in XML?

What ogl?

MadBeardMan
November 23rd, 2019, 13:44
Folks,

Been working on WOIN, as I want to run Judge Dredd next year, so been addressing the lack of equipment you can create yourself (mostly done), have made sure all recent errata is done (and it is), plus has my ace theme guy (Dan Titan) update the theme to make it more efficient.

I'll be sending this to internal test in the week.

On a side note, I've been working on NOW, that should be ready for very early New Year.

Sadly I doubt Smiteworks will get the license for Judge Dredd, but I'll make sure the ruleset should work.

Cheers
MBM

MadBeardMan
November 23rd, 2019, 13:47
We've been playing WOIN NEW with the ruleset, works well - thank you MBM!

Has anyone tried running Judge Dredd (https://www.worldsof2000adrpg.com) with this ruleset? It uses WOIN, and the character sheet is essentially identical. I haven't done a thorough comparison of what changes, if any would be needed to run JD.

Related, is it possible to change the visuals of the character sheet to customize to Judge Dredd character sheet (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58811039414fb59bc00ce9d7/t/5af16d6e03ce648f197df319/1525771651619/2000adrpg_character_sheets.pdf), or is that locked?

WOIN is the ruleset, but NEW is an Extension, I did it this way so that NOW and OLD could use the same ruleset and only need a new theme/reference books.

This means you can create an extension for a new theme, and override the NEW theme OR just create a new Theme and override the WOIN default theme.

Let me see what I can do in that area, without infringing on any license.

Magnimost
November 23rd, 2019, 16:54
Folks,

Been working on WOIN, as I want to run Judge Dredd next year, so been addressing the lack of equipment you can create yourself (mostly done), have made sure all recent errata is done (and it is), plus has my ace theme guy (Dan Titan) update the theme to make it more efficient.

I'll be sending this to internal test in the week.

On a side note, I've been working on NOW, that should be ready for very early New Year.

Sadly I doubt Smiteworks will get the license for Judge Dredd, but I'll make sure the ruleset should work.

Cheers
MBM

Thanks so much for your efforts, MBM! We just finished the first scenario for WOIN NEW which was fun, and my friend (GM) bought the other scenarios available.

It's too bad about the Dredd license, but as long as the ruleset works with it with minimal edits (which it sounds like it will) I'll manage!


WOIN is the ruleset, but NEW is an Extension, I did it this way so that NOW and OLD could use the same ruleset and only need a new theme/reference books.

This means you can create an extension for a new theme, and override the NEW theme OR just create a new Theme and override the WOIN default theme.

Let me see what I can do in that area, without infringing on any license.

I'd imagine a JD character sheet without any copyrighted assets (logos, etc.) should be doable?

Raz_Kabooz
November 29th, 2019, 16:35
Been working on WOIN, as I want to run Judge Dredd next year, so been addressing the lack of equipment you can create yourself (mostly done), have made sure all recent errata is done (and it is), plus has my ace theme guy (Dan Titan) update the theme to make it more efficient.

I'll be sending this to internal test in the week.

On a side note, I've been working on NOW, that should be ready for very early New Year.

Sadly I doubt Smiteworks will get the license for Judge Dredd, but I'll make sure the ruleset should work.

Thank you for the update! I just purchased WOIN for the Black Friday Sale.

Viper007
December 29th, 2019, 11:10
Ok, With the beta of FG Unity, I decided to move my previous work on my campaign from Classic to Unity. Two things which I thought surely have been corrected are still not functioning. The problems were present when I purchased NEW and although I mentioned them several times with my alt [Viper007] it seems nothing has been done to correct this. So let me explain as best I can with photos.

This first photo is the Exploits list, I can create a box with the button as almost all FG rulesets do. The second photo shows that I can fill in everything except the Name, and as you will see in the Skills list photo, it shows up in the main listing, but has no Title (as I cannot enter one!)

31036
31037

The third photo shows the skill list with the created skill box, but no name! The skill box will not let me enter information into the title or the subject area. The fourth photo shows that it is possible! There is a workaround, but to be honest I shouldn't have to use a workaround, I have been more than patient to see this problem fixed!!

31035
31038

Now, I know that problems occur, situations occur, family occurs, a lot of things occur that can prevent problems from being repaired, fixed, or in some way taken care of, but this is ridiculous!!
Since I have seen how people who are upset, mad, perturbed or whatever get from the community, whenever something like this comes up, so let me first explain how I feel!

I bought this ruleset as I was very much interested in creating a new and unseen universe in the WOIN world, with worlds, stars, people, races, etc. What I have seen from the comments in this forum is one of low interest in the ruleset and it's expansion, I really expected much more! No ability to add ships, vehicle list with basically a blank area for information and nothing more. But I expected this to come later, but since Judge Dredd came out that's all I seem to see in the forums!! Is this ruleset about Judge Dredd or NEW?

I guess all I really need to know is, are these problems going to be fixed, is the gameplan to expand or not? Is the situation untenable? Should I just keep my mouth shut and take the loss!

My apology's to anyone who is hurt by these words, but I really expected more from Smiteworks!

Santyagoffg
December 29th, 2019, 11:22
I have similar problems with WOIN. I had asked the author many times to fix it without any result.

hawkwind
February 24th, 2020, 17:17
i was thinking of running a Judge Dred game however a few missing features in the rule set still need to be corrected

1. no way to add new careers
2 You can add exploits but you can't name them!

Santyagoffg
February 25th, 2020, 18:35
i was thinking of running a Judge Dred game however a few missing features in the rule set still need to be corrected

1. no way to add new careers
2 You can add exploits but you can't name them!

You can add new exploit and name it but you have to do it on character card. For my campaign I have dummy player card with all additional skills and exploits. This is not 100% satisfactory resolve however.

Huntastic
March 7th, 2020, 22:42
WOIN has a feature referred to as, "Hold," which allows you to hold back dice from an attack in order to do extra damage. I've searched through the thread to see if there are any references to this, but have not found any. Do you have a way to implement this?

Also, it seems that if you try to maximize an image/map, there are issues. If you use the NEW extension, you can expand the window, then either restore it to normal size, or expand it to fill the FG desktop. If you try expanding to fill the desktop, the image does not properly layer on top of the rest of the UI, so you will no longer be able to interact with the image/map icons, and will be stuck with a maximized map.

If you do not use the NEW extension, you can expand the window, at which point none of the map icons work any longer. (kinda weird)

I am going to be working on adding all of the OLD stuff from 1.2 to FG with just the WOIN module loaded. If I export all of that, can you use it for the OLD module MBM?

MadBeardMan
March 31st, 2020, 19:29
Hi Folks,

Just to let you now, now that VtM has been released and Dan is busily supporting it (with the occasional bit of help), and Traveller has had a major update I'll be returning to WOIN.

There doesn't appear to be a v1.2 for OLD atm, so going to chase that up.

So I'll go through all these and action them in the near future, depending upon how much more insanity I can stand being locked down at home.

I hope the rest of you through this pandemic are fairing well.

Cheers,
MBM

Huntastic
March 31st, 2020, 19:39
Hi Folks,

Just to let you now, now that VtM has been released and Dan is busily supporting it (with the occasional bit of help), and Traveller has had a major update I'll be returning to WOIN.

There doesn't appear to be a v1.2 for OLD atm, so going to chase that up.

So I'll go through all these and action them in the near future, depending upon how much more insanity I can stand being locked down at home.

I hope the rest of you through this pandemic are fairing well.

Cheers,
MBM

MBM, I've added in all of the NPC's, swords, basic armor, races, and a few tables from O.L.D. 1.2. Would you like me to export and send you a module to save you some time? I'm quite anxious to get a full O.L.D. 1.2 Module for my campaign. I would have added Exploits, but it seems that the only way to add names for the exploits is through XML... I've considered writing a tool for this, but I haven't had that kind of time. I'm a bit surprised that someone hasn't written a full blow GUI editor for Fantasy Grounds yet. Working with XML is so tedious.

I've been dealing with, "Hold," by having my PC's create extra actions for Hold1 and Hold2. I would very much like to see modifiers for this.

MadBeardMan
March 31st, 2020, 23:39
Folks,

Been sent v1.2 of OLD, so I'll look at that and see how far away that is from release (assuming it's not been a major change bar the critical system and some text).

Cheers,
MBM

SilentGhost
April 5th, 2020, 01:53
quick question:how do i add new borian origin/careers to my character sheet? I have been trying to figure out to adjust or create a mod that includes the various material from eons. thanks in advance.

MadBeardMan
April 6th, 2020, 21:51
Afternoon All,

Almost caught up on Traveller, just a bit more data but the good news, back to WOiN so reading through this very long thread so see what's up, anything that you want me to fix, post away again if it's a few weeks/months old.

Started on v1.0.9.

[Updated] NEW Extension. Removed custom radial buttons and used updated CoreRPG
[Fixed] You can now add the Exploit title to your custom exploits
[Updated] Career side button. Have added a side button for Careers (needs theming for both CoreRPG and NEW)
[Updated] Careers. You may now create your own careers

Huzzah!
MBM

MadBeardMan
April 7th, 2020, 00:34
quick question:how do i add new borian origin/careers to my character sheet? I have been trying to figure out to adjust or create a mod that includes the various material from eons. thanks in advance.

Hi SilentGhost,

The update I'm working on (v1.0.9) includes the ability to create your own careers. If you need it before that gets released there's a way to get the XML required for a mod. Drag a career over the top of another career in the list, so that it creates a duplicate. Now export the module and be sure to include careers, rename the .mod, to a .zip and look in the XML file. Bit of a heavy workaround, apologies for that, I'm working on making it easier!

Cheers,
MBM

Viper007
April 7th, 2020, 05:04
First of all, I am glad to see someone working this rule set.

These are what I think are important items listed in a non-prioritized format:

1. Need buttons for the following sections: Careers (DONE as stated above), Homelands, and Traits. If there is another way to add them, please explain. And if an explanation is required then that instruction should be placed somewhere.
2. Fold all Psionic Exploits into the current Exploits section (some are there, some are not), or add a sub-group to Exploit Section listing them.
3. Make sure all areas work with character sheet and add-new sections.
4. Change the target number to a darker color or black. The current state is a very lite white that blends in with background.
5. New Skills, no understandable way to associate a category to the skill, using the category drop-down list.
6. D66 rolling, especially for tables, lot of them in rule book.
7. Implementing a vehicle sheet like the one shown on WOIN website (even if not automated) and space ship sheet like the one shown on WOIN website (again, even if not automated). For information during a game.

Good luck and stay safe!

MadBeardMan
April 7th, 2020, 13:15
First of all, I am glad to see someone working this rule set.

These are what I think are important items listed in a non-prioritized format:

1. Need buttons for the following sections: Careers (DONE as stated above), Homelands, and Traits. If there is another way to add them, please explain. And if an explanation is required then that instruction should be placed somewhere.
2. Fold all Psionic Exploits into the current Exploits section (some are there, some are not), or add a sub-group to Exploit Section listing them.
3. Make sure all areas work with character sheet and add-new sections.
4. Change the target number to a darker color or black. The current state is a very lite white that blends in with background.
5. New Skills, no understandable way to associate a category to the skill, using the category drop-down list.
6. D66 rolling, especially for tables, lot of them in rule book.
7. Implementing a vehicle sheet like the one shown on WOIN website (even if not automated) and space ship sheet like the one shown on WOIN website (again, even if not automated). For information during a game.

Good luck and stay safe!

Hi Donny,

Cheers for the list!

1. Done.
2. I'll have a look.
3. Can you explain more?
4. Done - the Theme update is complete.
5. Working on it.
6. Will copy the Traveller D66 over
7. Ok, this will be added in the next version(s), let me get this v1.0.9 with these fixes out very soon

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
April 8th, 2020, 01:36
Maybe this is a time a time for a gentle reminder on the Judge Dredd character sheet option?

Character sheet can be found here (https://www.worldsof2000adrpg.com/resources). If there's a licensing limitation, perhaps just a generic WOIN NEW sheet without some of the branding would be a good workaround, or a way for users to customize it so we can create our own Judge Dredd (or any custom) character sheet?

MadBeardMan
April 8th, 2020, 01:39
Good Morning (1:38am here)!,

I asked about JD and was told 'No' due to licensing issues. However if someone has the skills to create a new theme then they can do it, without the JD logo.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
April 8th, 2020, 01:55
2:54 AM here :)

I was afraid so. I might be able to put together a non-infringing character sheet in Photoshop, just the graphical version, would that be possible to import into WOIN as an alternate character sheet to play JD with? I don't know XML or programming in general.

Viper007
April 8th, 2020, 05:53
1. Done.
2. I'll have a look.
3. Can you explain more?
4. Done - the Theme update is complete.
5. Working on it.
6. Will copy the Traveller D66 over
7. Ok, this will be added in the next version(s), let me get this v1.0.9 with these fixes out very soon

Thanks for the quick reply, this was in reality, a general remark, but to explain further:

A. Quests section, no area for XP (CR is not needed), and no area in Party Sheet for tracking of Quests, i.e. more work for the GM to keep up with. And what use is the Quest section other than for reference. And of course, XP has to be manually changed. If this is not warranted, suggestion is to delete the Quests button (since notation's in the Story section would be more than sufficient) and save the desktop space. If it is warranted, also look at the Encounter section as XP should be there as well.

B. Exploits section, why have a category section when creating new exploits? The exploits from the rule book have no categories. Although, I personally think it would be a great help to categorize all of them to allow searching through them you can't do that anyway. So pretty much space wasted, unless this is for a update not known about.

These were two that I quickly found after a few clicks and some observation for an example. I am sure more will come up as the project advances.

In all truth, this was a monumental task to begin with and you should be commended on what you have done so far. I sincerely hope your "love/hate" relationship turns to love once again! Upon full completion, this game has a lot of potential for story-telling in all aspects of role-playing and having fun!

Take care, be safe and I look forward to more updates!

MadBeardMan
April 8th, 2020, 22:27
Hi Folks,

Just to let you know that the solid chap HunterAP has been super awesome, gone through the posts (and I asked him to take a good look at Donny's as they were valid) and compiled me a list of what's required, plus more on how to improve the ruleset over time and stuff like that.

So far done this week and I'll stop on Saturday morning so it can sent to FG for moving to TEST and then hopefully LIVE once it's been tested.

1. NEW theme update finished, so the Target Number is easy to see! Plus new buttons to allow me to be shown, and CoreRPG icons in radial menus.
2. Buttons for Careers, Traits and for NEW Homelands
3. Exploits can now have a name
4. Skills can now be created
5. Skills can now be filtered by the group to which they belong
6. Traits can now be created
7. Traits can now be filtered by the Characteristic to which they belong
8. NEW Homelands can now be created, when assigning skills use the word ' or ' if there's more than one, ie 'Mining or navigation', if you want more than 2 choices, use ' or ' or use a comma, ie 'Mining, navigation or survival'
9. NEW Homelands update the characteristics, plus assign the skill, or allow the user to assign the skill if there's a choice
10. D60 dice added, so you can assign a D60 and a D6 to a table and roll the D66! I'll look at updating the NEW book with these when I can.

Thanks to Donny again for the extra explanation above. Oddly now that I'm actually coding and not data entry I'm enjoying WOiN again. I was lost before as hardly anyone played it (and my groups went off the rulesystem for those simpler, ie DnD). WOiN is very complex and hard to code but we'll get there.

Cheers,
MBM

MadBeardMan
April 8th, 2020, 22:29
2:54 AM here :)

I was afraid so. I might be able to put together a non-infringing character sheet in Photoshop, just the graphical version, would that be possible to import into WOIN as an alternate character sheet to play JD with? I don't know XML or programming in general.

Alas to add a custom character sheet you need to create an extension, which is not in itself difficult, but adding a custom character sheet is not an easy task.

I can't be much help in that at this time, trying to get things into the ruleset. But I won't say I can't help if you have specific questions, I do advise you look into the CoreRPG ruleset around character sheets first. Not for the faint-hearted.

Cheers,
MBM

MadBeardMan
April 8th, 2020, 22:32
1. Done.
2. I'll have a look.
3. Can you explain more?
4. Done - the Theme update is complete.
5. Working on it.
6. Will copy the Traveller D66 over
7. Ok, this will be added in the next version(s), let me get this v1.0.9 with these fixes out very soon

Thanks for the quick reply, this was in reality, a general remark, but to explain further:

A. Quests section, no area for XP (CR is not needed), and no area in Party Sheet for tracking of Quests, i.e. more work for the GM to keep up with. And what use is the Quest section other than for reference. And of course, XP has to be manually changed. If this is not warranted, suggestion is to delete the Quests button (since notation's in the Story section would be more than sufficient) and save the desktop space. If it is warranted, also look at the Encounter section as XP should be there as well.

B. Exploits section, why have a category section when creating new exploits? The exploits from the rule book have no categories. Although, I personally think it would be a great help to categorize all of them to allow searching through them you can't do that anyway. So pretty much space wasted, unless this is for a update not known about.

These were two that I quickly found after a few clicks and some observation for an example. I am sure more will come up as the project advances.

In all truth, this was a monumental task to begin with and you should be commended on what you have done so far. I sincerely hope your "love/hate" relationship turns to love once again! Upon full completion, this game has a lot of potential for story-telling in all aspects of role-playing and having fun!

Take care, be safe and I look forward to more updates!

Hi Donny,

Thanks for replying and explaining more.

A. Quests - I've myself never used these, if there's value in them at a later date then let's discuss what that means. Regarding XP, if it's a calculated thing per encounter then we can look at adding it in.
B. Exploits. Category section? I'm at a loss here, maybe I was meant to be typing about something else. You are correct there's no grouping of them that I know of.

Ok back to working on the ruleset.

Cheers,
MBM

Huntastic
April 9th, 2020, 03:56
Hi Donny,

Thanks for replying and explaining more.

A. Quests - I've myself never used these, if there's value in them at a later date then let's discuss what that means. Regarding XP, if it's a calculated thing per encounter then we can look at adding it in.
B. Exploits. Category section? I'm at a loss here, maybe I was meant to be typing about something else. You are correct there's no grouping of them that I know of.

Ok back to working on the ruleset.

Cheers,
MBM

XP is very GM centric, and calculated based on the grade of the party in WOIN. There are some guidelines for how to assign it. GM's should be able to assign XP to an encounter, quest, or parcel.

Viper007
April 9th, 2020, 05:08
XP is very GM centric, and calculated based on the grade of the party in WOIN. There are some guidelines for how to assign it. GM's should be able to assign XP to an encounter, quest, or parcel.

Ok, just to be clear, are you saying that the rule-set needs to track XP in the above mentioned areas (?Parcels?) or not? Gotta love it, online discussion, ain't communication great! LOL!!

P.S. If it's decided to keep the Quests button can we change the name to something more sci-fi, like: Mission, Project, Adventure, Chase, Expedition, Inquiry, Investigation, Journey! Ok, so I got more time than usual, dang virus!!

MadBeardMan
April 9th, 2020, 09:18
Ok, just to be clear, are you saying that the rule-set needs to track XP in the above mentioned areas (?Parcels?) or not? Gotta love it, online discussion, ain't communication great! LOL!!

P.S. If it's decided to keep the Quests button can we change the name to something more sci-fi, like: Mission, Project, Adventure, Chase, Expedition, Inquiry, Investigation, Journey! Ok, so I got more time than usual, dang virus!!

Morning,

You pick, for me, 'Adventures' is better than Quests.

Easy to do.

Cheers,
MBM

taalo
April 9th, 2020, 23:31
The special ammunition and grenade portion of the equipment are missing. It's listed in the reference manual, but not in the equipment. It looks like anything not on the weapons range table wasn't included.

I tried to list technical problems that need to be addressed as well but I keep getting flagged for forbidden words that I can't find a list of so I can stop using them...

Magnimost
April 10th, 2020, 20:58
Minor thing: tool tip on character sheet main tab for Death Pool, Health and Psi points all say "Reset Luck Pool to default value."

taalo
April 10th, 2020, 22:35
Individual equipment opened in its own window gives an error message if you click on the NEW icon instead of dragging it.

SilentGhost
April 14th, 2020, 06:20
A button for planet creation? Please and thank you.

MadBeardMan
April 16th, 2020, 14:43
Folks,

WOIN/NEW should have been updated this week with the following:

[Updated] NEW theme update finished, so the Target Number is easy to see! Plus new buttons to allow me to be shown, and CoreRPG icons in radial menus.
[Updated] Buttons for Careers, Traits and for NEW Homelands
[Fixed] Exploits can now have a name
[Updated] Skills can now be created
[Updated] Skills can now be filtered by the group to which they belong
[Updated] Traits can now be created
[Updated] Traits can now be filtered by the Characteristic to which they belong
[Updated] NEW Homelands can now be created, when assigning skills use the word ' or ' if there's more than one, ie 'Mining or navigation', if you want more than 2 choices, use ' or ' or use a comma, ie 'Mining, navigation or survival'
[Updated] NEW Homelands update the characteristics, plus assign the skill, or allow the user to assign the skill if there's a choice
[Updated] D60 dice added, so you can assign a D60 and a D6 to a table and roll the D66! I'll look at updating the NEW book with these when I can.

I'll speak with HunterAP to get the next updates underway including the issues reported above.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
April 17th, 2020, 19:48
Bugs with modifiers:
Melee Flanking, Helpless, High Ground do nothing. Sneak is -1d6, although text says +1d6. Prone is the only one which works properly.

Ranged seem to OK, though some are confusing (cover is shooting into cover, not from cover, while prone is shooting while prone, not at a downed opponent).

Viper007
April 24th, 2020, 04:18
Removed

damned
April 24th, 2020, 05:04
Hi Viper007

I dont think you are allowed to put stuff for FG up for sale without a licensing agreement withe SmiteWorks.
5E and the DMsGuild is different as the DMsGuild has a licensing agreement with SmiteWorks so individual parties do not need to setup individual agreements.

Magnimost
May 2nd, 2020, 21:45
Request: option to enter defense scores as dice pools, instead of scores. For example, you could enter 18 as a score, but if you enter 5d6 (which is equivalent to 18) you could click on the defense score and the system would roll an armor score.

And ability to link to sections in reference manual, so we can put e.g. gear list or dice pool reference in quick selection.

MadBeardMan
May 3rd, 2020, 12:18
Request: option to enter defense scores as dice pools, instead of scores. For example, you could enter 18 as a score, but if you enter 5d6 (which is equivalent to 18) you could click on the defense score and the system would roll an armor score.

And ability to link to sections in reference manual, so we can put e.g. gear list or dice pool reference in quick selection.

Hi Magnimost,

I've added the modifiers to the list to look into.

Now thinking about Defense scores. These need to be a fixed number for the damage reduction. So if you wanted the 18 to be 5d6 (so you could roll it) when it came to reducing damage the ruleset would roll the 5d6 and not apply the 18. It's either or. Let me speak with HunterAP to agree on something, unless you have a workable solution.

Ability to link to sections in ref manual, what do you mean exactly?

Thanks,
MBM

Magnimost
May 3rd, 2020, 13:16
Now thinking about Defense scores. These need to be a fixed number for the damage reduction. So if you wanted the 18 to be 5d6 (so you could roll it) when it came to reducing damage the ruleset would roll the 5d6 and not apply the 18. It's either or. Let me speak with HunterAP to agree on something, unless you have a workable solution.

Ability to link to sections in ref manual, what do you mean exactly?

I see. Perhaps the defense scores need to be an option to set for the entire campaign: either roll, or fixed. Then the entry in the character sheet would be according to that setting. That might work.

If I go to reference manual, I'd like to have that draggable link icon so I could share that via chat, or put it to my quick selection. For example, yesterday as player I had to explain "go to Library, then reference manual, under core rules, combat, upgrades" (from memory). Would be easier if I could just drag the upgrades link to chat.

MadBeardMan
May 3rd, 2020, 13:22
I see. Perhaps the defense scores need to be an option to set for the entire campaign: either roll, or fixed. Then the entry in the character sheet would be according to that setting. That might work.

If I go to reference manual, I'd like to have that draggable link icon so I could share that via chat, or put it to my quick selection. For example, yesterday as player I had to explain "go to Library, then reference manual, under core rules, combat, upgrades" (from memory). Would be easier if I could just drag the upgrades link to chat.

Thanks for the quick reply. The issue with defence is that it's a number, a number can't hold 5d6, it would have to hold 5 which would confuse people, there is a work-around for this so let me have a think.

Every page on the Ref Manual has a link (top left, with NEW it's an 'N'), this is draggable and droppable in the chat window. If you can give me an exact example as to what you need to share but can't, I can then see for you.

Cheers,
MBM

AngelusLA
May 6th, 2020, 11:10
Hi I sent in an email to support today about a few things i notice when i was setting up WOIN NEW the notes error in both FGC / FGU also the buttons are really small in all but a few are not. The email i sent in has screen shots of this as well i was wondering would this email get to you or someone else MBM?

I am going to be running Xenomorphs for some friends we are going to give it a go. Also really looking forward to when you release OLD and NOW i know things are busy with Unity

MadBeardMan
May 6th, 2020, 11:44
Hi I sent in an email to support today about a few things i notice when i was setting up WOIN NEW the notes error in both FGC / FGU also the buttons are really small in all but a few are not. The email i sent in has screen shots of this as well i was wondering would this email get to you or someone else MBM?

I am going to be running Xenomorphs for some friends we are going to give it a go. Also really looking forward to when you release OLD and NOW i know things are busy with Unity

HI AngelusLA,

Thanks for your comment here. Also thanks for pointing out that you're using Xenomorphs, that's the issue here, you've used the 'Xenomorphs' that needs an update for the latest version of CoreRPG. I'll get that fixed tonight for you (at work atm) and sent over to SM.

To answer, support to go Smite Works, they then send those issue on. I got this a few weeks ago, but the detail wasn't there and so I tested without the 'Xenomorphs Theme' and all worked nicely. Turn that Theme off for the moment and it should all be good.

Cheers,
MBM

AngelusLA
May 6th, 2020, 11:54
Hi MBM

Yes just done what you said all working fine wow can see every thing just on NEW, In my Email to support I pointed out Medical Kit and Frag Grenades are missing from the Equipment list just to let you know I input that manually for the time being, Stay Safe.

MadBeardMan
May 7th, 2020, 12:52
Hi MBM

Yes just done what you said all working fine wow can see every thing just on NEW, In my Email to support I pointed out Medical Kit and Frag Grenades are missing from the Equipment list just to let you know I input that manually for the time being, Stay Safe.

Hey there,

Just to let you know. I updated the theme last night.

34996

I'll be sending this over tonight, so hopefully will be part of next Tuesdays updates.

I'll get the missing items added tonight as well.

Thanks for letting me know!

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
May 8th, 2020, 22:14
Every page on the Ref Manual has a link (top left, with NEW it's an 'N'), this is draggable and droppable in the chat window. If you can give me an exact example as to what you need to share but can't, I can then see for you.

We still haven't played WOIN again, but ran into the same in Traveller (and I heard it's the same in CoC). As a player, I occasionally want to link to a section in reference manual. Rather than telling everyone "click on Library on the bottom right, then reference manual, then Skills and Tasks, then Task Chains," it would be far superior to be able to link directly to that section of the manual, kinda like you'd link a skill or item. Apparently the GM can link, but players can't.

Given this is a shortcoming in other rulesets, might be an FG limitation.

AngelusLA
May 17th, 2020, 21:36
Hi MBM just had my first combat test session in WOIN it went pretty well but the my players could not roll initiative on the character sheet although they could roll perception. We had to do this manually on the chat and I had to drag and drop to the Initiative on the combat sheet, I have seen that I can roll for them on the combat tracker but I like my PCs to feel that they are in control on rolls for Initiative.

I also noticed that the combat tracker does not show the weapons on the combat tracker for my PC but it does with the NPCs not sure about this. So far this is all we noticed at the moment so far on our test combat. If i come across anything else I will drop you a line again obviously you know what’s in the works and what is not.

Cheers,
AngelusLA

P.S if you need screenshots let me know.

MadBeardMan
May 17th, 2020, 22:01
Hi MBM just had my first combat test session in WOIN it went pretty well but the my players could not roll initiative on the character sheet although they could roll perception. We had to do this manually on the chat and I had to drag and drop to the Initiative on the combat sheet, I have seen that I can roll for them on the combat tracker but I like my PCs to feel that they are in control on rolls for Initiative.

I also noticed that the combat tracker does not show the weapons on the combat tracker for my PC but it does with the NPCs not sure about this. So far this is all we noticed at the moment so far on our test combat. If i come across anything else I will drop you a line again obviously you know what’s in the works and what is not.

Cheers,
AngelusLA

P.S if you need screenshots let me know.

Hi AngelusLA,

Thanks for letting me know that your session went pretty well, and also super thanks for the offer of screen shots - they can really help, but let me try and answer your queries without asking for more info.

I'm assuming you're playing using the NEW Setting.

The Rolling on the Character Sheet, that fell through the most recent update, it's on the next one which should be in the next few weeks (I'm working on updating the actions tab). So for the moment, either roll by hand or use the Initiative roller in the Combat Tracker. I also prefer my players roll their init, adds to the drama.

Next up the attacks. The PC's don't have attacks on the CT, they use their Actions Tab on their CT. They drag at the attack and damage dice onto the Token or the entry in the CT and make the Attk vs Defense etc. As I said, I'm working on making these actions better, HunterAP is working with me to do this, and it's my job this week coming to work on the next WOIN update and some other Call of Cthulhu stuff, as my Traveller game isn't running this week so I have some free time!

Cheers,
MBM

AngelusLA
May 17th, 2020, 22:28
Thanks for getting back to me MBM For some reason I thought that the weapons showed up on the CT PC tabs on DND Which the do not, so that makes sense That they would not in WOIN as well my bad. We had a couple of Critical Hits which work by generating the number for the Critical Hits list but i cannot find the information that tells me That it is a Temporary Condition or a Severe Condition That has been inflicted. Is the case of the first time it is a Temporary Condition then a Severe Condition? Anyone Who can point me in the right direction on this would be great.

Magnimost
May 20th, 2020, 17:00
I'm building a .mod for Judge Dredd. What is the purpose of "Category" in Exploits (category type -field in the xml) and Skills (skillcategory in xml)? This is different than the "category name," which I'm using to separate all JD items, skills, exploits and careers.

Also a minor issue with WOIN:

Careers window doesn't have a title text. It also doesn't have a title in Library under the checkable list in the top of the Library window (underneath GM, Player, etc. buttons), it's just an empty slot next to a checkbox - which does add the Careers button to the right-most list of buttons.

MadBeardMan
May 20th, 2020, 17:04
I'm building a .mod for Judge Dredd. What is the purpose of "Category" in Exploits and Skills?

Also a minor issue with WOIN:

Careers window doesn't have a title text. It also doesn't have a title in Library under the checkable list in the top of the Library window (underneath GM, Player, etc. buttons), it's just an empty slot next to a checkbox - which does add the Careers button to the right-most list of buttons.

Hello,

Careers window text has been fixed in the current in-dev build, soon as I've got the actions updates done I'll be sending it to FG.

Now to answer your Category question, they group Exploits and Skills together.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
May 21st, 2020, 00:51
Hello,

Careers window text has been fixed in the current in-dev build, soon as I've got the actions updates done I'll be sending it to FG.

Now to answer your Category question, they group Exploits and Skills together.

Cheers,
MBM

Great, thanks! Have all skills added, and exploits and careers for civs and perps done for Judge Dredd. Next up judge careers and exploits, and gear.

I noticed that skill group for manually added skills doesn't show up when the lock is on, only when you turn the lock off. Is this intended?

Magnimost
May 21st, 2020, 10:30
Found this errata for WOIN (https://www.woinrpg.com/errata). At least Charge exploit and attack die to damage -conversion rate doesn't incorporate the errata, yet.

Magnimost
May 21st, 2020, 21:14
FGU issues:

Skill, Exploit and Career groups don't show up for players in the drop-down, it only shows All and None.

Dice tower doesn't show up for GM, but does for players when set to on.

MadBeardMan
May 21st, 2020, 21:20
FGU issues:

Skill, Exploit and Career groups don't show up for players in the drop-down, it only shows All and None.

Dice tower doesn't show up for GM, but does for players when set to on.

Hi,

Screenshot please of the missing bits as I don't have FGU.

Dice Tower won't show up unless you have Show GM dice rolls set to on.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
May 21st, 2020, 22:22
Hi,

Screenshot please of the missing bits as I don't have FGU.

Dice Tower won't show up unless you have Show GM dice rolls set to on.

Cheers,
MBM

Below screenshot. Could it have something to do with the locked or share settings of groups themselves? They can see the individual skills, careers and exploits, but not the groups in the top menu.

Ah, yes, dice tower fixed with your tip, thanks!

35867

MadBeardMan
May 21st, 2020, 22:24
Below screenshot. Could it have something to do with the locked or share settings of groups themselves? They can see the individual skills, careers and exploits, but not the groups in the top menu.

Ah, yes, dice tower fixed with your tip, thanks!

35867

Nice on the dice tower.

Does it do the same in FGC, I can check tomorrow.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
May 22nd, 2020, 17:25
I just released the beta of Judge Dredd mod (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?58242-Judge-Dredd-module-for-WOIN-N-E-W-ruleset&p=512293#post512293), which uses WOIN N.E.W. ruleset!

Magnimost
May 24th, 2020, 02:22
Issues we ran into in FGU:
- Modifier is white on white for players, very difficult to read. Black on white for GM.
- NPC type of damage is undocumented AFAICT: you need to type "Ranged, Ballistic", which is inconsistent with how weapons and PCs report the types of damage (separating these two types of damage into two different fields)
- When using Modifiers you can't see what they do beforehand. For example, cover doesn't show it does +2d6
- Modifiers don't work at all for NPCs when GM rolls, nor does the Modifier selector in bottom left. None of them have any effect.
- Skill filtering inconsistency: Category filter in Skill window actually filters using skillgroup string, not category field
- Nice to have: ability to filter Exploits by Category (currently only able to filter by Group, but that doesn't work fully for players as reported previously)
- Very nice to have: ability to not set a Difficulty rating to a roll. Sometimes as a GM I just want to know how high characters roll, rather than giving a fail/succeed binary choice.
- It is very difficult to tell which Difficulty rating is selected. Changing the color would be better than just changing the emboss to deboss.

Magnimost
May 26th, 2020, 23:08
I can't get custom weapons' Special type to show up. The weapons list the special correctly and the same way the ruleset weapons do as far as I can tell, but they don't show up in-game in weapon description window.

Any ideas?

<id-000066>
<attackdef type="string">Ranged</attackdef>
<availability type="string">J</availability>
<cost type="string">2,500</cost>
<damage type="string">2d6+4</damage>
<damagetype type="string">Heat</damagetype>
<description type="formattedtext">
<p>Mounted on the front of the Lawmaster bike, the Cyclops Laser is the most effective weapon a Street Judge would normally have for use against vehicles and other large targets.</p>
</description>
<genre type="string">Judge Dredd</genre>
<isidentified type="number">1</isidentified>
<locked type="number">1</locked>
<name type="string">Cyclops Laser (gunnery)</name>
<range type="number">30</range>
<size type="string">L</size>
<special type="string">Anti-Vehicle 3, Beam</special>
<subtype type="string">Generic Ranged Weapon List</subtype>
<type type="string">Weapons</type>
<weight type="number">50</weight>
</id-000066>

GrizzledNoob
May 27th, 2020, 02:37
Hey everyone. I am glad to see a mod for WOIN and Fantasy Grounds so thank you to all of you that worked on this. I have a few questions and searching the thread is not helping.

Does this support OLD? I am starting a fantasy campaign and would love to use Fantasy Grounds over a hacked up Discord version.

Where are the mod files for this setting? I have other Fantasy Grounds systems that I can go into and add items, such as doing the manual entry to add OLD races, skills, exploits, equipment, etc.. But I can't find the mod or ext files for NEW.

I also just started a quick test to make a character. The careers did not add to the attributes, although it seemed like in the notes this should work. Adding a weapon to the character did not assign the to-hit roll on the Actions tab. Armor did not add to the Soak.

Just a few items above that I am not sure are because I used it wrong or if they are not currently working in the system. Thanks for the help.

Samzagas
May 30th, 2020, 17:59
It is possible, but you'll have to do some heavy lifting yourself. I ran a OLD campaign about a year or so ago with this ruleset and it was mainly OK, but since there is no library of items/careers/spells/exploits for OLD, everybody had to write their own descriptions to each item. Another thing to consider is that since it currently supports NEW mainly, it uses PSI instead of Magic, but that's just a name as far ar the sheet cares.

Magnimost
May 30th, 2020, 18:06
It is possible, but you'll have to do some heavy lifting yourself. I ran a OLD campaign about a year or so ago with this ruleset and it was mainly OK, but since there is no library of items/careers/spells/exploits for OLD, everybody had to write their own descriptions to each item. Another thing to consider is that since it currently supports NEW mainly, it uses PSI instead of Magic, but that's just a name as far ar the sheet cares.

That's what I did for my Judge Dredd mod (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?58242-Judge-Dredd-module-for-WOIN-N-E-W-ruleset&p=512293#post512293). You could add the skills, exploits and gear manually either in-game, or in xml and make them into a mod.

GrizzledNoob
May 31st, 2020, 04:46
How did you know the format of everything and the necessary info needed for each item? I couldn't find the mod or ext to use as a template. The only thing I found were .dat files in the vault folder and it didn't seem like I could open that up to look at anything.

damned
May 31st, 2020, 04:52
The way to find teh format of stuff that is encrypted is to make a duplicate of a sample item t dragging an existing one down about 1cm and releasing. Then type /save in the chat window and have a look at the dampaigns db.xml and you will see the object with all its properties.

Magnimost
May 31st, 2020, 11:37
The way to find teh format of stuff that is encrypted is to make a duplicate of a sample item t dragging an existing one down about 1cm and releasing. Then type /save in the chat window and have a look at the dampaigns db.xml and you will see the object with all its properties.

I didn't know this was possible, I exported the new skills as a mod.

Additionally, being a newbie at all this, I created a new category for the new skill, called it "testcategory," and dragged the copied skill to this category. Then I exported it as a module, and used that as the template for the entire mod. That way I saw from the exported file where the category field goes. While category was clearly marked in the xml, some other less obvious ones were useful to fill out this way.

HywelPhillips
June 2nd, 2020, 10:38
Just adding an extra voice to say thanks for implementing WOIN thus far... and please continue to expand.

Personally I'd really like to run O.L.D. via FGU with some sort of spell/magic system support.

The other thing which would be a killer feature for me is a good way of adding skills, races, exploits, careers, etc..

The appeal of WOIN for me is the ease of expanding for a homebrew game and custom setting, so whilst having all the rulebook careers and skills is obviously necessary for supporting the system, what I *really* want to be able to do is to create my own inside FG in a straightforward way and have them treated like the rulebook ones thereafter by the system.

Cheers, Hywel

MadBeardMan
June 2nd, 2020, 13:57
Hi All,

HunterAP has been quiet, it's an odd time for a lot of us in the world, but he's given me a very nice list.

I'm almost finished the update to the Actions Tab, which makes building the dice pool better overall.

I'll go through the bugs since the last update and get them all sorted.

As for OLD that's back and being worked on, I'll check where that is, as we got the v1.2 OLD book finally, so I'll see about what's left to bring that live, of course there's the magic side of things, but that should work just like the PSI stuff for NEW.

Cheers,
MBM

Magnimost
June 7th, 2020, 00:03
Bugs with modifiers:
Melee Flanking, Helpless, High Ground do nothing. Sneak is -1d6, although text says +1d6. Prone is the only one which works properly.

Ranged seem to OK, though some are confusing (cover is shooting into cover, not from cover, while prone is shooting while prone, not at a downed opponent).

Noticed also Ranged Prone doesn't do anything. Rest mentioned above are still broken.

Perhaps worse, the modifier in bottom left of screen (still) doesn't affect NPCs as GM. Modifier is removed when rolling, but doesn't affect the roll itself. Below as example 4d6 with +20 modifier as marked, but it doesn't add a number or dice into the roll.

36606

The above issues make running any combat encounter quite tedious. Tested in FGU.

MadBeardMan
June 7th, 2020, 00:14
Noticed also Ranged Prone doesn't do anything. Rest mentioned above are still broken.

Perhaps worse, the modifier in bottom left of screen (still) doesn't affect NPCs as GM. Modifier is removed when rolling, but doesn't affect the roll itself. Below as example 4d6 with +20 modifier as marked, but it doesn't add a number or dice into the roll.

36606

The above issues make running any combat encounter quite tedious. Tested in FGU.

Hi Magnimost,

Thanks for letting me know. I pretty much finished up the updates to the actions tab last week, I'm on other projects next week, but I'll see about adding another day of WOIN before I send off to SW.

I don't run FGU, so I'll test in FGC, though there shouldn't be any real difference between the two for scripting.

Now to answer OLD, OLD is still in progress, I'll speak to Hunter about it.

Cheers,
MBM

RaithDuhal
July 3rd, 2020, 23:59
Nevermind - my sync was off - thanks for all this hard work Colin!

kananesgi
July 7th, 2020, 16:12
...
Now to answer OLD, OLD is still in progress, I'll speak to Hunter about it.
...

Any idea of a time line on OLD? I was thinking of setting up a low-fantasy game for a few friends, and we're all familiar with FG so I'd prefer to use it as opposed to trying to learn another VTT system.

MadBeardMan
July 8th, 2020, 10:55
Any idea of a time line on OLD? I was thinking of setting up a low-fantasy game for a few friends, and we're all familiar with FG so I'd prefer to use it as opposed to trying to learn another VTT system.

Hi,

I got a reply from Hunter. He's been very busy recently. I'll finish the update coming later this week and then take a good look at OLD and see what's left to do and reply here.

Cheers,
MBM

trobadork
July 8th, 2020, 14:26
Hi,
I'd like to translate some part of the ruleset, is there a way to have a list of strings used in it ?

TheChicoCaldwell
July 28th, 2020, 21:44
Hi,

I got a reply from Hunter. He's been very busy recently. I'll finish the update coming later this week and then take a good look at OLD and see what's left to do and reply here.

Cheers,
MBM

I have searched the this thread, but I have seen no mention of the NOW Core Rules being ported to Fantasy Grounds. Given that OLD is still yet to come, can one presume that NOW is not on the radar for quite some time to come? I have a NOW campaign I'm currently running on another VTT platform, but I'd be keen to migrate here if the WOIN support is better.

kananesgi
July 29th, 2020, 01:54
If I may ask (and as long as it's not against the rules here), what other VTT are you currently using?

TheChicoCaldwell
July 29th, 2020, 17:55
If I may ask (and as long as it's not against the rules here), what other VTT are you currently using?

Roll20. It has a "NEW"-flavored character sheet available that mostly works, but isn't perfect, but that was developed by a community volunteer with no new updates to it in quite some time. We have used it on a limited basis, mainly as a handy reference, but seldom for in-game combat/skill-check rolls. One of my players and I have created a macro-enabled Excel spreadsheet for character creation that automates more than the character sheet on Roll20. I'd be inclined to modify/update/create the Roll20 char sheet, as I believe I have the technical knowledge, but I don't have the time. That's why I'd be more inclined to pay for a properly working WOIN:NOW sheet and other handy features for me and my playgroup on FG.

MadBeardMan
July 30th, 2020, 19:36
Hi All,

I've been asked to post here with the status.

Hunter has been very busy with RL (I assume around Covid) and so I've been working on my own updating the actions.

I'll send these up this weekend and then look at what's left on Hunters document he sent over.

Regarding OLD. We got the updated PDF's a while ago, the plan was for Hunter to convert it, but again, due to his RL issues that's outstanding.

I asked about doing NOW some time ago, but OLD needs to be finished first.

If someone else wants to conversion NOW email FG at let them know.

Cheers,
MBM

GrizzledNoob
August 19th, 2020, 03:34
A while back there was talk of an update to this ruleset coming soon. Is it close to complete? Did the update already happen without a version number change? Thanks.

GrizzledNoob
October 7th, 2020, 23:19
A while back there was talk of an update to this ruleset coming soon. Is it close to complete? Did the update already happen without a version number change? Thanks.

Just checking in again. Two months later. Are there any updates coming to this? Thanks.

MadBeardMan
October 8th, 2020, 16:42
Just checking in again. Two months later. Are there any updates coming to this? Thanks.

Hi,

Two months, crumbs, sorry. I'll finish up the last bit I had agreement with. Alas HunterAP doesn't have the time to spend on working with me to help decide what needs to be done with WOIN, so if anyone else wants to project lead then contact me.

I'll get the Action updates finished and pushed up this weekend. They'll spend a week in TEST and go LIVE the next week.

Cheers,
MBM

HywelPhillips
October 8th, 2020, 17:14
That's a shame, I was hoping for a proper OLD conversion. It looks like a really cool system on paper, but given the COVID situation it's gotta run properly on FGU for me to try running it for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for the work you've put in so far, MBM. I hope someone else can take this on!

Cheers, Hywel

MadBeardMan
October 8th, 2020, 17:47
That's a shame, I was hoping for a proper OLD conversion. It looks like a really cool system on paper, but given the COVID situation it's gotta run properly on FGU for me to try running it for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for the work you've put in so far, MBM. I hope someone else can take this on!

Cheers, Hywel

Hello,

I've got the OLD content all converted, however this is from when it was 3 different books. It wouldn't take too long (a few days) to get them updated. What's missing is the data, though again a few days. If you think there's enough people wanting OLD I can look at spending a week on it.

Cheers,
MBM

GrizzledNoob
October 9th, 2020, 05:31
I'm sure there are. I think working the bugs out of the current NEW rules would be more beneficial, instead of getting the data into OLD and having it rough to play.
WOIN is a system that just needs some love to get it over the hump. There is a steady stream of content coming out with the EONS patreon. It just needs a solid online play implementation to get it some momentum.
I tried to play a campaign with friends, but there are just so many quality of life things the other paid for rulesets have us used to that my group dropped it and unfortunately went back to Savage Worlds. I don't like the system as much, but the Fantasy Grounds implementation is top notch.
Just adding my personal perspective.

MadBeardMan
October 9th, 2020, 10:07
I'm sure there are. I think working the bugs out of the current NEW rules would be more beneficial, instead of getting the data into OLD and having it rough to play.
WOIN is a system that just needs some love to get it over the hump. There is a steady stream of content coming out with the EONS patreon. It just needs a solid online play implementation to get it some momentum.
I tried to play a campaign with friends, but there are just so many quality of life things the other paid for rulesets have us used to that my group dropped it and unfortunately went back to Savage Worlds. I don't like the system as much, but the Fantasy Grounds implementation is top notch.
Just adding my personal perspective.

Hi GrizzledNoob,

I no longer play using WOIN and so I'm not involved enough to know what needs what doing. This is why I've tried to pass it onto another dev or get someone to 'project manage' it. WOIN is very complicated compared to a number of systems but a lot of it can be automated, the issue is the time required. I'm ok to fix bugs and add a bit of dev here and there, but I honestly need someone to direct what is important. I'm working through a Google Doc from Hunter, though a lot of comments on it need discussion.

I'll get the Actions Update finished and we can see what's next. Book content is easy to convert, it's the automation that requires the time.

Cheers,
MBM

HywelPhillips
October 9th, 2020, 10:56
I think there's a real chicken-and-egg situation for smaller RPGs on VTTs, especially on FG.

I love the comprehensive, customisable and detailed nature of OLD, but in order to run it online it needs the basic quality of life automation. I know it is unreasonable to expect it to have the level of support of 5e or Pathfinder, but when people try it, then discover it doesn't really provide what they are used to, it's natural to go back to the more supported systems.

It's what I've done myself.

I enjoy D&D, but it generates a particular look-and-feel which doesn't suit every story one might want to tell. Games like OLD can support different look-and-feel, but they won't get a look in on VTTs without support, and they won't get support without demand and without sales, and if there are few sales there's no resources to support getting the automation going more fully.

Not dissing anyone's work, I appreciate what a massive effort it must be to get even a full featured character sheet and dice roller for any system which uses dice in a slightly different way. I'd love to see more love for minority systems but it's such a tiny fraction of the audience it's no wonder most of them never really get off the ground. It's amazing that community devs have done as much as they have.

We are lucky that FG has one non-D&D-derived system properly, massively, awesomely automated with huge support and lots of stuff on the marketplace: Savage Worlds. It doesn't handle stuff in as interesting a way as OLD in my opinion but at least it is a toolkit to build a fantasy game that isn't built on the D&D core ideas of classes and levels and huge power curve.

I'd love to see WOIN fully implemented with lots of automation support but there may just not be the critical mass of interest and dev effort to get it up to where it needs to be to attract people who use FG because of the automation for D&D or SWADE to get going on other systems. I want to see a full RQ Glorantha/RQ II system too, and many more, but I don't think they're going to happen unless the VTT market grows by another factor of ten.

Cheers, Hywel

MadBeardMan
October 9th, 2020, 11:16
That's some very good points.

What I honestly want is for someone to project manage WOIN, or offer to take it over. I did propose a plan for Hunter to do that, giving help and things. But seems RL (especially this year) has not gone to plan.

I'm sat waiting for test results for one of my kids atm, so could be I'm stuck in this house for another 14 days.

Though I love to work with people on these things, got a good team of community on Traveller, so I can give WOIN some love and time, just need someone to take the reigns.

I'd also love to do this full time. It's never likely to happen with the systems which I want to be involved in because they're not big sellers (are any compared to DnD/PFRPG?), and sadly the house needs paying for still!

Cheers,
MBM

GrizzledNoob
November 12th, 2020, 05:46
Hi GrizzledNoob,

I'll get the Actions Update finished and we can see what's next. Book content is easy to convert, it's the automation that requires the time.

Cheers,
MBM

Hi MBM. I understand the issues causing this ruleset to stay on the backburner, but it has seemed like for months you have some updates that are right on the verge of releasing. Is there any chance we can get those updates in the next week or so? Then I can determine if the updates help enough to get us using the ruleset for our next campaign. If not, then I wasted 20 bucks. I've certainly lost more money than that on trying to play games with friends, so no hard feelings if it doesn't go any further. Thanks.

loofou
November 20th, 2020, 11:50
I guess it has already been asked before: Any way the community can help getting the system up-to-speed? I am currently hacking my way through some extensions to get rudimentary item quality levels in there, but I think this is something that should be part of the core ruleset eventually.

MadBeardMan
November 20th, 2020, 13:38
Hi All,

If someone can take up Hunters position, ie 'manage' what's required and can work with me (via email) then we can proceed. There's an update to come but as I don't play any WOIN I can't say it's the way people want the ruleset to go.

Plus if there's a need for OLD then I could look at finishing that up.

PM me if anyone is interested in project managing, it doesn't take much time, just an understanding of what the community wants and realistic timescales.

Cheers,
MBM

MadBeardMan
December 5th, 2020, 23:43
Hi All,

Loofou has been in touch, and so today after working on Species/Races for the last week you see that v1.2.0 iscoming soon. I've pushed an update with the following changes.


Species/Races. Data Record sheet split into individual fields rather than one 'edit box'. To populate the Exploits, drag them into the correct field, these are: Those that the Species always have, and those that are optional. Note the optional is for future development.
Assets Button. Only on FGU, but the NEW theme now has a themed button
Target Number (Client). The font colour and text alignment match those of the Host (black and centered)
Full and Maximise Images. The bug when you made an image maximum (and then couldn't make a full image, or reduce) has been fixed
Hexes bleeding into Maximised Images. The hexes (top and bottom left) now stay behind any maximised image.

There are more tweaks here and there.

Note: If you have custom Races/Species please note you'll have to edit them and put the data in the right places. Make a note of them now BEFORE this update.

Cheers,
MBM

GrizzledNoob
December 6th, 2020, 07:50
That is some awesome news. Thank you for the update. Looking forward to it!

loofou
December 6th, 2020, 10:52
Well, I certainly hope I can be of help to organize the workload a bit. :)

The current idea is to clean up and improve the database entries in general (as MadBeardMan mentioned, the Species screen already got a facelift) and eventually get to a more automated character creation. We still have some ways to go, but updates should come more frequently now (of course depending on my and MBMs availability).

If you have any ideas and feedback on the new improvements, please let us know here.

MadBeardMan
December 6th, 2020, 21:24
Hi Folks,

Also now fixed the maximise button bug, and stopped the hexes from bleeding into those images.

Cheers,
MBM

Raz_Kabooz
December 7th, 2020, 13:03
Thank you MBM and Loofou for all your work. Looking forward to the updates!

MadBeardMan
December 10th, 2020, 14:53
Folks,

This is what's in the v1.2.0 update going to SmiteWorks tonight.

NEW Setting

[Fixed] FGU hexes overlaying images
[Fixed] Client Target Number font colour changed to black and text realigned
[Added] A button to replace the Asset button was added in FGU
[Updated] The Modules images were tided up and re-compressed, 20% smaller now

WOIN Ruleset

[Fixed] Maximised/Full Screen images are working correctly now
[Added] Skill Groups Data holding a list of all applicable skills. Custom Skill Groups can be added
[Updated] Species. Data broken into correct fields supporting Drag and Drop of Skills and Exploits (both Optional and always applied)
[Updated] Skills. Skill Groups can now only be added via Drag and Drop
[Updated] Careers. Data broken into correct fields supporting Drag and Drop of Exploits
[Fixed] Missing Career Label text has been added back in

I've added in some data from Stontium Dog to test these updates. The focus has been to make the underlying data more consistent and easy to add in custom data. We'll be working on the next update very soon.

Cheers,
MBM

kananesgi
December 10th, 2020, 15:12
So many thanks to you guys for picking this up again. I've been on the fence about buying the module due to the unfinished state and the worry that it would not be finished. Now, I have hope and I'll go ahead and buy it tomorrow.

MadBeardMan
December 10th, 2020, 15:15
So many thanks to you guys for picking this up again. I've been on the fence about buying the module due to the unfinished state and the worry that it would not be finished. Now, I have hope and I'll go ahead and buy it tomorrow.

No worries. I've been asking for help for a good while. But oddly it's been good to get our from under the Traveller hood and back into WOIN. It's a good system, and very complex but I'm sure good progress can be made.

Cheers,
MBM

kananesgi
December 10th, 2020, 15:20
No worries. I've been asking for help for a good while. But oddly it's been good to get our from under the Traveller hood and back into WOIN. It's a good system, and very complex but I'm sure good progress can be made.

Cheers,
MBM

Honestly, if I were more familiar with the system, I'd have offered my help a long time ago, but I new to WOIN and don't feel confident trying to manage it as you needed. The bright side is my groups play on FG exclusively and now maybe I can convince them to try the system out finally.

loofou
December 10th, 2020, 16:56
MBM is really underselling the impact of the update :)

The improvements to the career, skill and species sheets should make finding and referencing things much much easier.

41877

Also creating new species is much more stream-lined now. So instead of just a blob of text, you can drag and drop skills and exploits as needed and formatting is done automatically. Unfortunately any modules for custom settings like Judge Dredd or Xenomorphs have to be adjusted to work with the update.

41876

We have some more improvements and usability improvements planned that will eventually lead to a more automated character creation and advancement. It will still take a bit to get there, but we hope that each update until then brings a good number of improvements to make play more streamlined and fun.

PhilAdams
December 16th, 2020, 23:14
FYI, the update has apparently broken skills. When I drag a skill from the skill list to a character sheet, it shows up as an exploit instead. I look forward to continued support, regardless! :)

MadBeardMan
December 16th, 2020, 23:19
FYI, the update has apparently broken skills. When I drag a skill from the skill list to a character sheet, it shows up as an exploit instead. I look forward to continued support, regardless! :)

Dang. I shall get that fixed asap and pushed so should be on next weeks update, apologies as didn't do anything with skiils in that way.

Cheers,
MBM

PhilAdams
December 16th, 2020, 23:26
No worries. I'm manually entering skills with zero issue. It's just awesome to have support. :) Thanks!

MadBeardMan
December 16th, 2020, 23:41
No worries. I'm manually entering skills with zero issue. It's just awesome to have support. :) Thanks!

You can thank Loofou, he's deciding what should be worked on, I'm updating Careers and Homelands - the skill links part so that should be done as well.

Cheers,
MBM

jwatmough
December 17th, 2020, 01:36
These are great updates guys! I am a huge fan of the WOIN ruleset and will actually be running a campaign in it starting early next year. Keep up the good work.

kananesgi
December 17th, 2020, 01:39
These are great updates guys! I am a huge fan of the WOIN ruleset and will actually be running a campaign in it starting early next year. Keep up the good work.

Please pm me details if you are looking for a player. I haven't had a chance to do anything with WOIN yet, and would love to join a game. My schedule will probably preclude it, but maybe not.

MadBeardMan
December 17th, 2020, 09:48
FYI, the update has apparently broken skills. When I drag a skill from the skill list to a character sheet, it shows up as an exploit instead. I look forward to continued support, regardless! :)

Morning,

I've tested this in FGC and FGU and Skills dragged onto the Skills Tab appear there (as I had expected).

Let me know please and there were more updates sent yesterday so make sure everything is updated.

Are you running anything else (extensions?), are you using the NEW Setting extension etc?

Cheers,
MBM

MadBeardMan
December 17th, 2020, 09:51
These are great updates guys! I am a huge fan of the WOIN ruleset and will actually be running a campaign in it starting early next year. Keep up the good work.

Morning,

Ah that's cool, you got any time (cough) to make a nice theme for OLD?

Huzzah!
MBM

loofou
December 17th, 2020, 10:44
FYI, the update has apparently broken skills. When I drag a skill from the skill list to a character sheet, it shows up as an exploit instead. I look forward to continued support, regardless! :)

I also could not reproduce this issue with the latest version from 'live'.

Can you please try to update to the latest version and try again, just in case you got some in-between version while it was pushed live?

theplatypodes
December 19th, 2020, 01:21
Am I supposed to be able drag things into the equipment tab. Am I doing this wrong and same for adding even to type it out on weapon attacks/ psi attacks.

Sorry if I am just missing it.

PhilAdams
December 19th, 2020, 02:19
Here's the specific error/not error sequence.

1) Skills added via Homeworld/Homeland are added normally (not added to Traits).

2) Skills added via the Skills window are added normally, also.

3) Skills added via the Skills Group Index window go to Exploits.42143

PhilAdams
December 19th, 2020, 02:29
Am I supposed to be able drag things into the equipment tab. Am I doing this wrong and same for adding even to type it out on weapon attacks/ psi attacks.

Sorry if I am just missing it.


I'm able to drag from the Equipment window list onto the Equipment tab, yes. For weapons, when you drag the weapon from the Equipment window to the character sheet Equipment tab, it creates an entry on the Actions tab. At least that's what I get.

GrizzledNoob
December 19th, 2020, 06:57
Thank you very much for the updates to the ruleset. I hope to test it out during the holiday and hopefully get a game ready to go in the coming months. Appreciate the support and have a great holiday.

loofou
December 19th, 2020, 09:19
3) Skills added via the Skills Group Index window go to Exploits.42143

Ah so it's specifically from the Index window. I will test this again, then, thank you.
[Edit] Confirmed! Thank you for the report :) We will fix it for one of the next coming updates.


I'm able to drag from the Equipment window list onto the Equipment tab, yes. For weapons, when you drag the weapon from the Equipment window to the character sheet Equipment tab, it creates an entry on the Actions tab. At least that's what I get.

So far we did not change the Character Sheet at all, so it should behave the same as it did before we restarted the updates. We will get to it eventually, so please be patient about any bugs and missing features there for now.

kananesgi
December 20th, 2020, 04:32
I just got the ruleset for FG and tested this out and I'm seeing the same thing as PhilAdams. When dragging a skill from the Skill Group Index window, it populates as an Exploit instead. Dragging from the normal Skills window and the Skill Groups/(Group Window) seem to work as expected, so the problem seems to be specific to the Index for some reason.

loofou
December 21st, 2020, 10:28
I just got the ruleset for FG and tested this out and I'm seeing the same thing as PhilAdams. When dragging a skill from the Skill Group Index window, it populates as an Exploit instead. Dragging from the normal Skills window and the Skill Groups/(Group Window) seem to work as expected, so the problem seems to be specific to the Index for some reason.

Yes that was indeed the problem, as I wrote above. We have the fix for this ready and it should be in the next update (most likely sometime in January) together with other improvements.

PhilAdams
December 21st, 2020, 16:31
Thanks so much for the support. I look forward to the fixes! :)

Raz_Kabooz
December 27th, 2020, 13:11
First off I want to thank you for the work on the W.O.I.N. ruleset! :)

We started working on some characters and ran into two glitches that I'm not sure have been previously posted so apologies if already addressed.

Homelands (Homeworld) Careers - When choosing a Homeland having two career choices i.e., Asteroid, City, Desert and Ocean (example Ocean with Swimming or sailing) the skill populates as a single skill Swimming, Sailing. This was easy to edit manually for the desired skill.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42302&d=1609072932

Psionic Career Exploits - When choosing a psionic exploit from the career an unnamed exploit populates to the character sheet and a <<New Exploit>> appears on the Exploit List. You can manually enter the exploit information to the character sheet item, however, the entry that appears on the Exploit List is a read only item. This error seems to happen with all the psionic career exploits.

Update: reloading the module appears to delete the <<New Exploit>> from the Exploit List.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42303&d=1609073183

loofou
December 27th, 2020, 13:46
First off I want to thank you for the work on the W.O.I.N. ruleset! :)
Homelands (Homeworld) Careers - When choosing a Homeland having two career choices i.e., Asteroid, City, Desert and Ocean (example Ocean with Swimming or sailing) the skill populates as a single skill Swimming, Sailing. This was easy to edit manually for the desired skill.

Yes, it looks like our recent changes to the way skills are handled in various parts of the system broke the character creation automation for Homeworlds. We will eventually provide much better automation, so it might make sense to simply disable the feature for now and have you guys drag in the skills you chose manually, until we got to implement everything properly. I will discuss this with MBM.


Psionic Career Exploits - When choosing a psionic exploit from the career an unnamed exploit populates to the character sheet and a <<New Exploit>> appears on the Exploit List. You can manually enter the exploit information to the character sheet item, however, the entry that appears on the Exploit List is a read only item. This error seems to happen with all the psionic career exploits.

Update: reloading the module appears to delete the <<New Exploit>> from the Exploit List.

When you say "choosing", do you mean manually dragging in the exploit from the career entry into your character sheet or when you drag in the career itself unto the character sheet? It might help to have some clear steps of reproduction. So far I couldn't reproduce the issue myself.

Raz_Kabooz
December 27th, 2020, 14:13
When you say "choosing", do you mean manually dragging in the exploit from the career entry into your character sheet or when you drag in the career itself unto the character sheet? It might help to have some clear steps of reproduction. So far I couldn't reproduce the issue myself.

Thanks loofu! Yes dragging the exploit from the psionic career to the character sheet is causing the error. I don't think the psionic exploits are showing on the exploit list? The information can be created manually on the character sheet and the read only item to the exploit list will get deleted after reloading the mod.

loofou
December 27th, 2020, 16:10
Thanks loofu! Yes dragging the exploit from the psionic career to the character sheet is causing the error. I don't think the psionic exploits are showing on the exploit list? The information can be created manually on the character sheet and the read only item to the exploit list will get deleted after reloading the mod.

Interesting, we will check it out! :)

Raz_Kabooz
January 3rd, 2021, 14:34
Looking forward to the updates to W.O.I.N. and truly appreciate all the work put into the ruleset! :)

Posting the following error a player was experiencing while clicking on the Psi universal exploits from the Career Index. The error only appeared on the player side. This might have already been addressed in the upcoming fixes but wanted to share in case it wasn't reported.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42490&d=1609684113

Thanks!

MadBeardMan
January 7th, 2021, 15:35
Hi All,

Just to let you know I've pushed v1.2.1 over to SmiteWorks and it contains bug fixes, updates and new features. Loofou will post release notes a bit later.

Cheers,
MBM

loofou
January 7th, 2021, 16:31
Changelog for v1.2.1 (planned release date: 2021-01-12)

Generally we've continued to improve the foundations of the ruleset to make future changes and new features, like full character creation automation, much easier to implement and the ruleset in general more user friendly and robust.

Added:
- Added support for d66. It can be used in the chat, as well as in tables.
[EDIT: To make sure there is no confusion: Roll d60 + d6, NOT d66 directly. The gif showing a d66 roll was my mistake. I was just lucky to get results in the correct 60+6 range and went with it!]

- Added a simple way to add "Any" skill to any Skill Choice field for custom Careers, Species or Homelands. Simply check the "Any skill" checkbox and it will treat the Skill Choice field as "Any" skill for the player to choose from.
42676
- Added a campaign option for the GM to rename the Special Attribute (PSI/MAG/CHI) and even disable it completely if it's not necessary for your campaign or setting.
42677
- Added a campaign option for the GM to pick a more streamlined way to select the Target Number / Difficulty Number for the next dice roll. It will remove the list of buttons next to the TN field and replaces them with a simple combobox to choose the difficulty from. Two smaller arrow buttons are also present to quickly increase/decrease the difficulty.
42678

Updated:
- Homelands now use the same new and improved Skill Choices field that was introduced in v1.2.0 for Careers and Species. Unfortunately it breaks the character creation automation, so we disabled that for now, but will re-introduce it later in an improved form.
- This means that all places a skill can be chosen in character creation (Careers, Homelands and Species) now all work in the same unified way! That makes it also much easier for custom data and settings.
- Exploits now have a type that differentiates them between universal exploits, career exploits and species exploits. That helps in filtering for them, but will also make it easier for character creation automation to pick up on custom universal exploits in the future.
- Custom Careers will now only show the obsolete exploit field if it's not empty. If you are converting your old custom careers to the new system, make sure to clear the old exploits field.
- Improved traits by adding a field to select if the trait is selectable for a highest attribute or lowest attribute. In the future we can use this to make it possible for the player to select a custom trait during character creation.

Fixed:
- Fixed the bug that skills dragged from the Skill Index into a Character Sheet were treated as Exploits.
- Fixed the bug that skills with a dash in the name (like Zero-g) did not work with the new Skill Choices field.
- Fixed the issue with Psionic Exploits creating new empty exploit entries.

In the next update we will continue to improve the foundations by unifying the Requirements field for Careers and Exploits and give Equipment a big upgrade.

Samzagas
January 7th, 2021, 16:50
Nice, I'm looking forward to seeing the changes in action.

taalo
January 27th, 2021, 18:48
The Homelands tab seems to have broken. Whenever I bring it up in Unity and click on one of the homelands I get a constant stream of these errors (mostly the second error):

script execution error: [string "ref/scripts/career_skills_list.lua"]:23: attempt to index field 'anyskill' (a nil value)

script execution error: [string "ref/scripts/career_skills.lua"]:31: attempt to index field 'anyskill' (a nil value)

PhilAdams
January 27th, 2021, 18:59
I'm getting a different error. I can't drag the Homeland entry onto the character sheet (no errors thrown). When I open the Homelands list, that's when I see errors. Those errors run like this:

template: Could not find template() in class (charsheet_main)
Frame referencepage contains out-of-range values in BottomLeft.
Frame referencepage contains out-of-range values in Bottom.
Frame referencepage contains out-of-range values in BottomRight.

(followed by the previously listed errors)

taalo
January 27th, 2021, 23:46
On the character sheet, under the skills tab, the attribute selection doesn't switch to the selected Special Attribute in Options. It always stays as PSI, even if no special attribute is selected. It also doesn't automatically sub in for whatever the selected special attribute. So if I selected MAG in options, then PSI for a skill, they don't line up.

The actions tab on the character sheet has the attribute actions and seems to be tied to a particular attribute, but doesn't list which attribute. It would be more functional if the attribute was selectable and new slots were gained with a right-click.

Under weapon attacks, the Def rating isn't needed, that would be better suited by adding a luck slot to modify die rolls.

Rexaurum
February 6th, 2021, 23:43
Thanks for the bug fixes and improvements! I have a couple of questions (which I couldn't find but maybe I'm just having no luck searching this thread)
- The stats don't increase when adding careers. Is that a future upgrade? This would really speed up the character creation process.
- Are there plans to add the Modern W.O.I.N package? I would like to allow some of those to in the Future campaign that I'm starting, but for now I'm having to add those manually.

Note that I've been playing D&D 5e using FG2 for several years, so I'm just trying a new system for something different. I'm using Death of Ascalean as a module to try. Looks like a nice break from D&D so far.
Thanks.

MadBeardMan
February 7th, 2021, 15:54
Thanks for the bug fixes and improvements! I have a couple of questions (which I couldn't find but maybe I'm just having no luck searching this thread)
- The stats don't increase when adding careers. Is that a future upgrade? This would really speed up the character creation process.
- Are there plans to add the Modern W.O.I.N package? I would like to allow some of those to in the Future campaign that I'm starting, but for now I'm having to add those manually.

Note that I've been playing D&D 5e using FG2 for several years, so I'm just trying a new system for something different. I'm using Death of Ascalean as a module to try. Looks like a nice break from D&D so far.
Thanks.

Hi Rexaurum,

Thanks for the kind words and the questions.

1. Stats don't increase - the work done recently is to build the data so that work can soon start on automating things like that.
2. NOW is on the cards, but it's not at the top of the list, OLD will be released before NOW. Sorry, I can't give a date as things over the last year have been very 'fluid' when it comes to availability of time.

Cheers,
MBM

Rexaurum
February 8th, 2021, 21:33
great, thanks for the reply. It's good to know NOW won't come out for a while. I'll just create what I need manually and go from there.
Looking forward to the other improvements and trying out the NEW game rule set.

LeoKeros
February 19th, 2021, 10:42
Hello. A couple of questions about this ruleset, from using it:
In the inventory, what is the reason for players not being able to edit items? It has made things rather awkward when adding new items to the inventory.
Is there a way to reduce the number of dice that you're holding? I'm aware that you can right click while holding dice to add dice, but there are situations where you might need less dice.

Huntastic
February 19th, 2021, 20:32
Hello. A couple of questions about this ruleset, from using it:
In the inventory, what is the reason for players not being able to edit items? It has made things rather awkward when adding new items to the inventory.
Is there a way to reduce the number of dice that you're holding? I'm aware that you can right click while holding dice to add dice, but there are situations where you might need less dice.

We are addressing the inventory problems with the next update. This month, MadBeardMan had to get the updates to Fantasy Grounds in. They made some significant changes to the UI, and he had to fix WOIN, as well as his other packages.

I don't know about reducing the number of dice...

taalo
March 1st, 2021, 23:18
The d66 functionality seems to be off, I've been getting single-digit results instead of an 11-66 result.

Huntastic
March 2nd, 2021, 02:17
The d60 custom die is intended to be used as the tens place, much like percentile dice. /roll 1d60+1d6. In tables, drag the D60 into the custom area, then drag a d6 into the custom area.

taalo
March 2nd, 2021, 03:33
In the update post from Jan 7th, it was advertised as a normal d66 roll (/roll d66). The gif example even showed a roll of 21.

loofou
March 2nd, 2021, 08:27
In the update post from Jan 7th, it was advertised as a normal d66 roll (/roll d66). The gif example even showed a roll of 21.

Can you post a couple of screenshots with your exact steps? Could be a bug, could be that we have to be more clear on how to use the d66 roll :)

taalo
March 2nd, 2021, 18:45
44470
Yesterday I was only getting single digits. I had to roll several times today to get a single digit. Yesterday I was typing out the /roll d66 but today I was using ctrl+v for copied text.

MadBeardMan
March 2nd, 2021, 19:13
/roll 1d60+1d6 not d66

loofou
March 3rd, 2021, 08:29
Sorry for the confusion with the gif. I misunderstood the exact feature MBM put in and was lucky enough to only get results in the correct 60+6 range in my tests, so I made the gif with the wrong command. I edited the changelog to clarify.

/roll 1d60 + 1d6 is the correct command as MBM said. /roll d66 will literally roll a 66-sided dice ;)

taalo
March 6th, 2021, 11:23
Thanks for the clarification.

I'm a novice to fantasy grounds, and I'm still figuring out how it works, but I've created a custom module with all of the OLD 1.2 rules (races, skills, skill groups, careers, homelands, traits, exploits, equipment, mounts), modified to how my group has been using it - so we can migrate from roll20. Here are some things I noticed:

Custom skill groups don't appear in-game unless you have the Setting: WOiN NEW extension selected when loading into a game, so most of my players don't have access to them.

When loading into a game without the Setting: WOiN NEW extension selected half of the character sheets tabs are blank. Only Main, Skills, and Actions are labeled.

Is the shadow track going to be implemented? It's mentioned in all three rulesets but fleshed out in OLD.

Is cinematic mode going to be implemented into the character sheet, it's in all three rulesets?

Is the Carry increment going to be made to be modifiable? All the rulesets have the equipment, exploits, etc that increase the carry increment (backpacks, brawny exploit, species-centric exploits).

Is max lift going to be added to character sheets?

The character sheet from the books hasn't been updated since 1.0 and has a lot of missing information that the books listed in the derived stats section or individual sections.

There are other features that have been added over the years through WOiN's EON series that add other features like languages, contacts (people you know), etc. Arel those going to be implemented?

Homeworlds seem to be broken altogether, with error messages. They can't be dragged onto the character sheet or modified. Error messages pop up when custom versions are made. I mentioned that in a previous post. Maybe it has to do with being listed as both homeworld and homeland?

There is an Origin slot on the character sheet, but Origin careers can't be dragged to that slot.

The special attribute selection in the options doesn't line up with the character sheet. Only the PSI attribute works, with the rest giving the message that a special attribute isn't selected when trying to use it in the skills section of the character sheet.

Equipment in the character sheet doesn't load the item info when clicking the item symbol. It loads to a nearly blank sheet that lists cost, weight, and category that can't be modified (regardless if it's a custom entry or dragged from the equipment list). It's the same with equipment from the NEW setting and not just my module.

Are there plans for additional SOAK entries on the character sheet? The game uses two main types, Natural (protects against falling, acid, and gas and liquid-based damage in addition to normal damage types, but not vulnerabilities) and Armor (normal damage types), with Special being uncommon but added to the other two. Both main types come into play on a regular basis, but it's also not uncommon for characters with no natural SOAK to have two armor SOAKs or a conditional Natural SOAK. Example: Synthetic armor (2 armor SOAK) with Thermal customization (armor SOAK 5 (Cold)).

Will the d6 have a percentile function added to its right-click menu, like the d10?

Special ammo, Poisons, Grenades, and the like are missing from the NEW equipment list.

I'll report more as I start to import my campaign and do a trial run. Let me know if you need someone to do data entry for OLD or NOW to help move that along.

Huntastic
March 7th, 2021, 02:15
I've created a custom module with all of the OLD 1.2 rules (races, skills, skill groups, careers, homelands, traits, exploits, equipment, mounts), modified to how my group has been using it

Yep, I did the same thing for my group. I ran into the same issues as you. That's why I reached out to MBM a little more than a year ago, and I'm helping him update/test WOIN in Fantasy Grounds.


Custom skill groups don't appear in-game unless you have the Setting: WOiN NEW extension selected when loading into a game, so most of my players don't have access to them.

When loading into a game without the Setting: WOiN NEW extension selected half of the character sheets tabs are blank. Only Main, Skills, and Actions are labeled.

GUI elements are currently extension specific... (NEW is currently the only extension) We will be releasing OLD and NOW extensions once we get the WOIN core finished up.


Is the shadow track going to be implemented? It's mentioned in all three rulesets but fleshed out in OLD.

It's not on our radar currently, but I'll add it to the list.


Is cinematic mode going to be implemented into the character sheet, it's in all three rulesets?

Again, this wasn't on our radar, but I'll add it to the list. Odds are that these optional rules won't make it in for a bit. We're really focused on getting the standard core features working properly.


Is the Carry increment going to be made to be modifiable? All the rulesets have the equipment, exploits, etc that increase the carry increment (backpacks, brawny exploit, species-centric exploits).

Also not on the radar. Added it to the list.


Is max lift going to be added to character sheets?

There's an empty text box for max lift or any other carry modifiers... Do you think that there's a need for the actual stat? I think it's mostly an RP stat.


The character sheet from the books hasn't been updated since 1.0 and has a lot of missing information that the books listed in the derived stats section or individual sections.

There are other features that have been added over the years through WOiN's EON series that add other features like languages, contacts (people you know), etc. Arel those going to be implemented?

Up to MBM... If it's any help, I currently have my players keep up with this stuff in the, "Notes," section of Fantasy Grounds.


Homeworlds seem to be broken altogether, with error messages. They can't be dragged onto the character sheet or modified. Error messages pop up when custom versions are made. I mentioned that in a previous post. Maybe it has to do with being listed as both homeworld and homeland?

Added to our list as a bug.

Regarding custom versions, yeah, they don't work. I am unsure if this is a Fantasy Grounds limitation, but it seems that the game handles custom content significantly differently from coded content. I'm not familiar enough with FG to tell you whether we can get the custom stuff working on not. I can tell you that we will be releasing fully set up OLD and NOW extensions.


There is an Origin slot on the character sheet, but Origin careers can't be dragged to that slot.

Also added to the list as a bug.


The special attribute selection in the options doesn't line up with the character sheet. Only the PSI attribute works, with the rest giving the message that a special attribute isn't selected when trying to use it in the skills section of the character sheet.

Bug that we are currently aware of.


Equipment in the character sheet doesn't load the item info when clicking the item symbol. It loads to a nearly blank sheet that lists cost, weight, and category that can't be modified (regardless if it's a custom entry or dragged from the equipment list). It's the same with equipment from the NEW setting and not just my module.

This is one of the things that we're working on now. Next big patch is all about equipment.


Are there plans for additional SOAK entries on the character sheet? The game uses two main types, Natural (protects against falling, acid, and gas and liquid-based damage in addition to normal damage types, but not vulnerabilities) and Armor (normal damage types), with Special being uncommon but added to the other two. Both main types come into play on a regular basis, but it's also not uncommon for characters with no natural SOAK to have two armor SOAKs or a conditional Natural SOAK. Example: Synthetic armor (2 armor SOAK) with Thermal customization (armor SOAK 5 (Cold)).

Added to the list.


Will the d6 have a percentile function added to its right-click menu, like the d10?

Don't think so... I think that we're good with the d60+d66 functionality. You can use it anywhere in the system that I'm aware of. Is there a need to do more?


Special ammo, Poisons, Grenades, and the like are missing from the NEW equipment list.

Added to the list... Might go out as part of the equipment patch.


I'll report more as I start to import my campaign and do a trial run. Let me know if you need someone to do data entry for OLD or NOW to help move that along.

Hey, that's my job!!! ;) No, seriously... I've done exactly what you described in your opening statement for OLD. (much of the work that I did didn't work because custom content doesn't work correctly, things need to be added to the module/extension with the developer tools.) I'm waiting on moving forward with OLD/NOW until the core is set up properly, otherwise we'll just have to re-do it again. Our testing time/effort is going into "WOIN Core" and NEW. We figure that once we get NEW working properly, all we have to do is go back and get the data entered for OLD and NOW, and we're good to go.

Thanks for all of the feedback!

taalo
March 8th, 2021, 20:52
I appreciate it! Is there any way to get /roll 1d60+1d6 to work on a table in the custom entry slot or otherwise (e.g. rolling animal quirks for mounts)?

MadBeardMan
March 8th, 2021, 22:02
I appreciate it! Is there any way to get /roll 1d60+1d6 to work on a table in the custom entry slot or otherwise (e.g. rolling animal quirks for mounts)?

Yes, right click the d6 on the desktop and you'll see a custom dice option, choose that and you'll see a D60 option, click that and drag that into the dice area on the custom table, then drag a normal d6 in. That'll then roll a D60 and a D6.

Cheers,
MBM

taalo
March 10th, 2021, 19:19
I appreciate the help!

I know you guys are working on WOiN automation does that mean armor will be recorded differently sometime down the line to accommodate things like Melee & Ranged Defense penalties/bonuses or INT penalties, Mental Defense bonuses, and bonuses to shake off conditions from helmets?

Is there a way to add d6 bonuses associated with exploits (e.g. aim, feint, etc), having height advantage, or being mounted (also gains damage bonus) without using LUC?

Inside of the skill page, only one skill group can be attached, but many skills are in multiple skill groups, more so in OLD & NOW than NEW (e.g. in NEW, appraisal is both a Crafting and Subterfuge skill). Is there a way to attach multiple skill groups to a skill or do I just need to double the skill listing?

Is there a way to have the weapons chart show traits, since they are a big part of how a weapon is used and what it does (Stun, Reach, etc)? Is there a way to have multiple damage listings on a weapon (e.g. Versatile weapons have 1 & 2-handed damage values, melee weapons with the thrown trait don't add the size of their STR die pool to the damage, and some weapons can be used as melee or ranged weapons with different damage values and types)?

taalo
March 12th, 2021, 23:19
There needs to be a dedicated place for the Hook, right now the only place for it is in the Personal tab under notes. Otherwise, the only place the Hook is listed is in the descriptor, which is made up of age, trait, race, career, and hook. The Hook needs a spot to mark if it's a (Broad) Hobby or Quirk and what attribute is associated with it.

Right now, on the character sheet under the Personal tab, careers have a (roleplaying) descriptive grade listed instead of their number. All skills have a descriptive grade too, but the numbers help deal with the fine details. Plus, if a career is taken more than six times there's not a clear way to identify how many grades a character has in a career.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with mounts. I put them under Vehicles initially because they didn't seem to fit with NPC's, because in OLD mounts have player randomized stats, and they have a d66 chart for quirks. I was starting to think I needed to make the quirks into exploits and assign them to a table and then attach rolled quirks to an NPC, but then I found out the results are listed in the Story sidebar. I'm still at a loss for how to cleanly do mounts. I'm starting to wonder if I should just leave them listed under vehicles for prices and tables and have players make a second character filled out with rolled stats and quirks. My group has used WOiN to play Star Wars Legends (a carry-over from our WEG Star Wars game and an extensive conversion), Battletech, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, and a ton of Fantasy and I've used animal mounts in most of them at one point or another. I'm very familiar with the WOiN ruleset but not FG. When I search the forums for answers I get a lot of mixed results. So, any insights would be appreciated.

I also tried putting a lot of tables and player-relevant details into notes (like magic costs), but it looks like notes don't export. Does anyone have solutions for that?

Observations from transferring my campaign into FG...

taalo
March 14th, 2021, 11:34
NEW and NOW list only the Size (for creatures) in the main books, but when you get into expansion books and OLD it becomes Size/type (e.g. Small Humanoid) to address exploits and Magic.

NEW has multiple types of currency (Cr=1 & MCr=1k) and only Cr is present. OLD recommends using multiple currencies but only lists gold coins, and equipment charts have listed fractional costs probably to encourage the multiple currencies (e.g. 0.2, 0.5, etc).

Is there any way to list equipment that is both armor and weapon (e.g. Shields)?

PhilAdams
March 29th, 2021, 15:58
Stupid question: Did NPC skill rolls stop working? I could've sworn they worked last session I ran (last month), but it wasn't working yesterday.

PhilAdams
April 2nd, 2021, 22:41
I think there's something off about the maximum dice pool for the rule system.

For skills, the maximum dice pool seems to be lumping modifiers in with attribute, skill, and gear (the maximum dice pool cap only applies to attribute + skill + gear).

On the Actions tab for combat, the maximum dice pool doesn't seem to be working at al (pasted lower down)l.

Example: Grade 10 PC (7d6 cap)

The character has AGI 11 (4d6) and Ranged Combat 6 (3d6) + an exceptional quality sniper rifle (+2d6) for 9d6. That should top out at 7d6. Modifiers and Luck dice are not capped by Rank. In this case, if the character aimed (+1d6) and got the high ground (+1d6), they should be rolling 9d6. Instead, during my game, the game was capping at 7d6.

Here are some examples from the chat log:

Konrad Schoen: [ATTRIBUTE] Logic (4d6) + [SKILL] Hacking (2d6) + [EQUIP] (2d6) + [MOD] (1d6) - [GRADE CAP 10d6] (-2d6) [TOTAL DICE] (7d6) (vs Target 16) [SUCCESS] [2d6+d6r+4d6 = 21] <== should have capped at 8d6

Konrad Schoen: [ATTRIBUTE] Logic (4d6) + [SKILL] Computers (2d6) + [EQUIP] (2d6) + [MOD] (3d6) - [GRADE CAP 10d6] (-4d6) [TOTAL DICE] (7d6) (vs Target 16) [SUCCESS] [7d6 = 24] <== should have capped at 10d6


[ATTRIBUTE] Logic (4d6)
+ [SKILL] Engineering (3d6)
+ [EQUIP] (2d6)
+ [MOD] (1d6)
- [GRADE CAP 10d6] (-3d6)
[TOTAL DICE] (7d6) (vs Target 0) [SUCCESS]

Hiroyuki Sanada: [ATTRIBUTE] Logic (4d6) + [SKILL] Engineering (3d6) + [EQUIP] (2d6) + [MOD] (1d6) - [GRADE CAP 10d6] (-3d6) [TOTAL DICE] (7d6) (vs Target 0) [SUCCESS] [7d6 = 20] <== should have capped at 9d6

Konrad Schoen: [ATTRIBUTE] Logic (4d6) + [SKILL] Computers (2d6) + [EQUIP] (2d6) + [MOD] (1d6) - [GRADE CAP 10d6] (-2d6) + [LUCK] (1d6) [TOTAL DICE] (8d6) (vs Target 0) [SUCCESS] [d6l+2d6+d6r+d6+d6r+2d6 = 30] <== should have capped at 8d6 + 1d6 luck (the luck part is working)


Konrad Schoen: [ATTACK (R)] Rifle, slugger (6d6) [6d6 = 24]
Konrad Schoen: [ATTACK (R)] Rifle, slugger (8d6) + [MOD] (2d6) [10d6 = 34] <== should cap out at 9d6
Konrad Schoen: [ATTACK (R)] Rifle, slugger (11d6) [CRITICAL HIT] [11d6 = 44] <== should cap out at 7d6
Dexter Oliphant: [ATTACK (R)] Rifle, sniper (exceptional quality) (9d6) + [MOD] (1d6) [OBSCURED -2d6] [8d6 = 30] <== should cap out at 6d6: 7d6 cap -2d6 for OBSCURED +1d6 generic modifier

Also, I don't know if it's requested already, but any chance of getting a Luck die column in the Actions tab for attacks?

Thanks as always!

ColinBuckler
April 25th, 2021, 00:01
Just purchased O.L.D. & N.E.W. books. Looking to get N.O.W. next month.

Any news if/when O.L.D. will be made available at some point via FGU ?

I am looking at running a hybrid OLD/NEW system based loosely around the Apprentice Adept series - so it would be great to know how the OLD project is proceeding (if at all) and if we can have OLD and NEW rules loaded at the same time.

ColinBuckler
April 30th, 2021, 23:25
Any idea where the dark theme is as per post:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40532-What-s-Old-is-New&p=506299&viewfull=1#post506299

The white/blue theme is very, very bright and almost burns in to my old tired eyes....

ColinBuckler
May 1st, 2021, 19:39
Anybody have a few sample NPC's the can/willing share by exporting?

Trying to setup NPC's using the https://www.woinrules.com/fantasy-bestiary/ and not sure on the best way to enter some of the stats such as:

- Roar 4d6 mental (burst 8; Afraid)

How best to enter on the NPC sheet and represent on the combat tracker? Psionic? burst 8? Afraid?

How do you do set up each attack type? For instance Area attacks or Constitution attacks against VITAL DEFENSE (New 1.2 pg 166).

I am coming from an experienced GM of 5E where there is a high degree of automation. e.g. clicking effects to apply the Afraid condition to all appropriate creatures. I assume applying effects is all a manual process....??

Also looking at the NPC character sheet - it seems quite wasteful on screen space? Any plans to compress it?

Looking at the Damage field on the templates its woefully small for the contents, for instance the Xenomorph Warrior has in its damage field: "4d6+4 slashing/poison" and all you can see is "ing/poison".

ColinBuckler
May 2nd, 2021, 00:07
Further investigation I think the NPC's in Xenomorphs, Death on Ascalaon and on Trailblazer 9 are all set up wrong ....

Why?

The WOIN ruleset has a "Type" field which should contain the damage type, but the damage type on the NPC's are embedded in the damage roll field. (see attachment).

But when you make an attack with it the damage is untyped and immunity does not work...

When you correct it and put the damage type in the Type field it works - BUT - that means you can not set what type of defense you are making the roll against. Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, Mental Defense or Vital Defense.....

Please help....

ColinBuckler
May 2nd, 2021, 11:55
Ok, I have produced a document containing things that I have identified about this ruleset from the brief time working with it. This document can be found at:

https://1drv.ms/w/s!Aikn8YrdS93BiKdjzO3wdwym0x_lsg?e=Xudf20

Looking at the responses on this thread I suspect it will be a while before any response is posted.

The ruleset seems to be half complete with some basic/essential functionality required for the ruleset to work missing.

loofou
May 3rd, 2021, 17:55
Ok, I have produced a document containing things that I have identified about this ruleset from the brief time working with it. This document can be found at:

https://1drv.ms/w/s!Aikn8YrdS93BiKdjzO3wdwym0x_lsg?e=Xudf20

Looking at the responses on this thread I suspect it will be a while before any response is posted.

The ruleset seems to be half complete with some basic/essential functionality required for the ruleset to work missing.

Thank you and sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys. I will go through your document and discuss with MBM what we can do about the issues and how to prioritize :)

ColinBuckler
May 3rd, 2021, 17:58
Thank you - happy to demonstrate some of the issues if needed.

ColinBuckler
May 9th, 2021, 10:02
Any update on when these issues may be looked at as its been almost a week?

damned
May 9th, 2021, 10:06
Any update on when these issues may be looked at as its been almost a week?

For a smaller ruleset it might take a month or longer.
The dev needs to test it. Then identify the location of the issue. Then determine how they will fix it. Then test it. Then submit it. Then it goes to test. Then it goes to live.
And before all of that the dev needs to actually have some time to start that process.

ColinBuckler
May 9th, 2021, 10:44
I know the turn around can take a while - just asking for an update.

Last acknowledgement was about referring it to MBM (the developer). Not currently sure if loofou has got in touch with him or even tested to accept the errors need work.

As an IT Manager who regularly manages large IT projects/development (ex-programmer originally) I appreciate the timescales. Its nice to have acknowledgement that the problem has been received and added to the issue log. It would also expect to see an issue log as well as an approximate roadmap for any development/fix. Something akin to project status, project next expected release/update/patch ...etc date. There does not seem to be any evidence of that. If I could check my problems against a known issue log then I would not need to report the same issue again ....

I suspect the dev is working on other projects that may well bring in more royalties (Traveller? - The Great Rift just being released) and existing rulesets that are not providing as much revenue being left in the basement so to speak. With the ruleset being somewhat broken, I would always direct my staff working on LIVE systems to fix anything that is broken ahead of any future development as this maintains business as usual. i.e. in this case people can run games or continue to run games with the ruleset.

Additionally, regardless of the player base, the ruleset is a product sold by Smite Works and my sales contract is with Smite Works and not with any 3rd party developer. The product is marketed as a working ruleset released in 2017 (looking at the store page) - if the product is being sold I would expect it to work certainly after over 3 years - excepting the odd bug here and there (after all nothing can ever really be bug free and fixing a bug may well introduce more than it fixes... LOL).

For me as a recent product owner of the ruleset and a Smite Works user since 2014 I really wanted this ruleset to work, and is turning out to be a bit of disappointment as its clearly not up to the normal level that I have come to expect from a normal Smite Works product. I am not after the bells and whistles, just a ruleset where I can roll the correct check to determine if a hit has succeeded and then apply the damage. Also if the additional products lineup NPC configuration (Xenomorphs/Trailblazer) would line up with the ruleset. Whilst I have not delved into the product in any real depth these facts make the products unusable and I can manage other stuff that are missing (there are no NPC's/bestiary in the product Appendix 2 Alien & Foes for starters).

Whilst that sounds like a moan ... I guess it was a bit - sorry - they say moaning is good for the soul....

All I would like is an acknowledgement that the dev has the issues and roughly when he plan to work on them - be that he is currently working on them or it will be next week or next month.... etc

Oh and a project status + known issue log (pretty please..!)

Viper007
May 10th, 2021, 22:45
If your expecting any timely responses, you need to look over the thread. This rule set is in the category of "It will get fixed, when it gets fixed!" I bought it in 2017, five years ago and it has never been up to the standards of other rule sets. I even tried to become a developer to get it fixed, but sadly, I do not have the skills to become a programmer or coder. Loofou has moved it further along, of late, and I applaud him for the attempt, but in reality this rule set is still in the you get what you got stage.

Just take a look at where it is in the forums, under the Core section! If a new purchaser wanted to find information about it, searching the forums is the only option. What does that tell you? Why do I care? After five years I still have hope it will get fixed, not because of the money, but because I like the system. I will probably get flamed by this, but I really don't care. The product is and has been dead for five years, don't expect anything!!

My apologies,

ColinBuckler
May 10th, 2021, 23:26
If your expecting any timely responses, you need to look over the thread. This rule set is in the category of "It will get fixed, when it gets fixed!" I bought it in 2017, five years ago and it has never been up to the standards of other rule sets. I even tried to become a developer to get it fixed, but sadly, I do not have the skills to become a programmer or coder. Loofou has moved it further along, of late, and I applaud him for the attempt, but in reality this rule set is still in the you get what you got stage.

Just take a look at where it is in the forums, under the Core section! If a new purchaser wanted to find information about it, searching the forums is the only option. What does that tell you? Why do I care? After five years I still have hope it will get fixed, not because of the money, but because I like the system. I will probably get flamed by this, but I really don't care. The product is and has been dead for five years, don't expect anything!!

My apologies,

Its the fact that I have purchased the ruleset expecting a certain level of functionality such as rolling attacks against an enemy and they just don't work. Additionally damage type isn't rolled correctly. The crazy thing is they damage type/roll to hit appears to use the same field. Immunity does appear to work either. Looking at the way the NPC's are setup in the other Xenomorph and Trailblazer products these are the same.

I don't know how this passed any form of quality control.

I would look at the ruleset and see if I could spot anything but the entire ruleset is locked away in the vault granting no access to the code, even though I believe you can not copyright game mechanics (I could easily be wrong). I have 19 rulesets installed - 18 of them are available in the ruleset folder all except 1 - and that would be WOIN... All of these rulesets I can unzip and explore/debug - except WOIN.

Is anybody running a WOIN game - if so how?

Its all very disappointing.

loofou
May 11th, 2021, 07:37
You are right in some way as WOIN seems to be of a lower priority for SmiteWorks as other, more lucrative, rulesets, but I can also only guess here. I personally am only involved in WOIN but I am also not allowed to touch the code, I can only help in managing the project (and for free I might add).

About the management aspect: We have an internal Trello board, but we will not make this public. I agree that it would help in estimating when features or updates are coming, but in my years as a community manager I also learned that the opposite can be quite true and as soon as people see some kind of progress they expect that work is done instantaneous or start arguing about priorities.

Therefore we keep it closed for now. The recent bugs, also those from the document, have been entered and will be worked on as soon as MBM has time for it. WOIN is unfortunately not the only ruleset he works on, but he is the only developer on WOIN at this point.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this year has been a bit rough on everyone. We couldn't keep up the early momentum unfortunately as life got in the way. There has been a couple of months with nearly no progress, but we started to discuss the next steps and start working on it a few weeks ago, so I assume we will get some updates out soonish (meaning hopefully in the next month, but we are not sure yet). The big FG update in February breaking a lot of features certainly didn't help.

We are also trying to talk to SW to maybe open up the ruleset a bit more, but it's a matter of contracts and licenses, so we have to see about that.

I know it's not the best of situations, but we are trying our best to get WOIN back on the road and maintained.

ddavison
May 11th, 2021, 14:38
Hello ColinBuckler,

The expectations you have for this product are beyond the scope of what it is likely to ever be. Automation of any kind is something that we try to add to rulesets where possible, but the amount of automation and what form it takes is highly dependent upon the popularity of the underlying ruleset and the team/developer assigned to develop it. The WOIN ruleset is a very simple ruleset that includes the full rules of the game and allows you to track and look up information during gameplay without the need for a PDF or hardcover copy of the original rules. Being built on Fantasy Grounds means that you get the common functionality to share and work with images from the source material, move and track tokens, etc. The Combat Tracker has been modified to track the information pertinent to this game system.

Bugs should be reported and fixed on products we support. Game breaking bugs or those that throw error messages will be prioritized and cosmetic bugs will be added to a list to be addressed with any game breaking bugs. Requests for more automation are welcomed and will be added to a list for consideration as New Feature Requests. Looking at the list you submitted in the first post, it appears that they are cosmetic bugs or feature requests.

To make things easier for us to track, we also encourage you to list the actual items directly in the forum post instead of linking to an external source. We link to forum posts within our bug tracking system and it makes it easier for us to track specific items.


I did add these items to our Bug Tracker system for the product:
1. [Medium] Modifier buttons in the modifier window do not work
2. [Medium] Not reporting all effects in the combat tracker (if more than one)
3. [Low] Alignment issue in combat tracker heading
4. [Low] Show NPC icon on combat tracker alignment issue
5. [Low] New Feature Requests: (see below)

List of features requested by user for consideration:
1. Attack roll vs Defense type has mixed functionality
2. Damage is untyped
3. Natural Damage is not populated on NPCs
4. Automation when Dragging Career to PC (attribute bonuses, roll age or add age, list of skills, calculate number of careers)
5. Building Custom Attacks - functionality

The feature requests are items that may not be addressed, but they have been noted and documented.

ColinBuckler
May 11th, 2021, 20:41
Hi ddavidson,

Thanks for adding to the bug tracker. My mistake in presenting the issues in the word document - I thought it may be best to group the information together that way. I will present in the forums entirely in the future.

For some rulesets, such as 5E, its easy to identify where to post errors, in other rulesets such as WOIN where the information tends to be in a multi-ruleset forum/single thread its easy to lose track of details. Would you recommend posting just to this single thread long'ish thread or to create a thread for individual errors. I can see pros/cons to both approaches.

As an experienced GM using FGU to run 3 x 5E games a week/playing in a fourth and having several additional rulesets besides, I expected a reduced level of integration compared to 5E and some other systems. WOIN NEW looks very polished on the screen images provided and seems to indicate on the product page that its compatible with WOIN OLD (where is OLD anyways - it seems to have been promised for years?). With the ruleset being sold by SW I (wrongly) assumed it would be on par with the quality of the other products purchased and have enjoyed for numerous years. The sad truth is that it just isn't - with some of the errors I am surprised how the current ruleset release managed to get through quality control. The same can be said about Xenomorphs and Trailblazer 9. If this was a community developed free ruleset I could fully understand it.

I was tempted to "pop the hood" on the ruleset and had a look at the coding to see if I could have hooked into the ruleset in anyway and maybe code my own NPC sheet - not sure I have the time with current commitments but have considered it. The problem is that I can not look at the ruleset coding as everything (including an extension with the theme!) is locked away in the vault. The data I can understand being in the vault but the ruleset? - as previously stated this is the only ruleset like this out of 19 rulesets that is protected in this manner (e.g. 2E, 3.5E, 4W, 5E, BRP, Cthulhu, Castles/Crusades, Cypher, d20 Modern, Fate, Numenera, PF, PF2, Savage Worlds, Starfinder, The Strange...)

I fully accept each ruleset will have a different level of integration and it would be good if this could be communicated in someway on the ruleset product page. Maybe in a form of a coloured badge, e.g. 0 = No integration (black), 1 = simple (red), 2 average (amber) and 3 = high (green) level of integration (about 5e level). The product page could also go on to explain in a couple of sentences what to expect from automation rather than just provide details about the game system.

Smite Works is one of the best proactive companies I have purchased products from. The products tend to be A1 (odd exceptions). The level of support far exceeds any reasonably level of expectation. The community is very relaxed, friendly and very helpful. Which is why an official sold SW ruleset with this seeming poor level of quality control/support has quite honestly surprised me.

I really hope this ruleset can be developed to a usable level in the near future....

superteddy57
May 11th, 2021, 21:40
A new forum is now setup for WOIN and a bug report thread. Please report any bugs related to the ruleset or store modules there.

ddavison
May 11th, 2021, 21:41
We just created a new forum thread for W.O.I.N. where we can keep posts together. Superteddy asked for this and he will be moving the posts over that he finds. In general, having a new thread for a new bug would allow it to bubble to the top more easily and get added to our bug tracker with a direct link back to the issue thread. The bug tracker is also relatively new. Before then, individual developers were all keeping track of their own issues independently. We finally realized that it was too easy for SmiteWorks to lose sight of reported issues and fixes for them this way, and the new system should help with that.

We are often on the fence from a company perspective on whether or not to add a new official ruleset. We know that the expectation is often to have a D&D 5E level of automation and feature sets. In the case of D&D 5E, we've been adding features to it consistently over the course of 6-7 years. It's also our number 1 selling ruleset and the costs to devote developer resources there make perfect sense. For more niche rulesets, we still think they are cool and worthy of having an official product. We just don't have internal resources to devote to them all. If there wasn't a W.O.I.N. ruleset, there wouldn't be any add-on modules you could buy and you'd be stuck with a CoreRPG based version of it where you had to enter everything yourself and with absolutely no automation. Yes, we would all love to see a fully automated ruleset that was custom built to handle all the nuances of every system out there, but it seems to me that there is still value in a lightweight ruleset that sits somewhere between CoreRPG and 5E.

ColinBuckler
May 12th, 2021, 09:50
Hi Doug,

Thank you very much for this - this is Great !!!!!

I doubt I will have much time until the weekend as that strange real life world is such a pain and gets in the way a bit too often...

If functionality is there but not working as intended/should that is clearly a bug and should go in the thread that supperteddy57 has created. If the functionality is not there, then that is obviously a feature request and should marked appropriately in its own thread for evaluation by the developer. Likewise missing content is not really a bug - I know there are a few instances and I will attempt to identify them when found.

I agree with you entirely about automation - it would be lovely to have a fully automated ruleset for every game system - I can not see that ever happening, even 5E doesnt have that now (looking at you temporary max hit point reductions from undead)!

But ideally there should be a minimum standard agreed. Not my place to say what this minimum standard should be but basic stats (inc. equipment, recording abilities/spells...etc) for PC/NPC, making a standard attack against another target, applying damage to a target, everyday skill checks/standard saving throws from sheets and adding a comment to a combat tracker entity (doesnt have to be an effect) all seem to be good starting point to me. If not, then you might as well, like you say, just use the standard Core ruleset....

On another note - I do apologise if any comments I have made seem overtly aggressive - they were never intended to be. I fully support people having their own opinions and likewise hope people consider my opinions (doesnt mean they have to except mine - just consider)...

Once again many thanks for the forum and I hope the comments enable the ruleset to progress forward...

superteddy57
May 12th, 2021, 10:51
Hi Doug,

Thank you very much for this - this is Great !!!!!

I doubt I will have much time until the weekend as that strange real life world is such a pain and gets in the way a bit too often...

If functionality is there but not working as intended/should that is clearly a bug and should go in the thread that supperteddy57 has created. If the functionality is not there, then that is obviously a feature request and should marked appropriately in its own thread for evaluation by the developer. Likewise missing content is not really a bug - I know there are a few instances and I will attempt to identify them when found.

I agree with you entirely about automation - it would be lovely to have a fully automated ruleset for every game system - I can not see that ever happening, even 5E doesnt have that now (looking at you temporary max hit point reductions from undead)!

But ideally there should be a minimum standard agreed. Not my place to say what this minimum standard should be but basic stats (inc. equipment, recording abilities/spells...etc) for PC/NPC, making a standard attack against another target, applying damage to a target, everyday skill checks/standard saving throws from sheets and adding a comment to a combat tracker entity (doesnt have to be an effect) all seem to be good starting point to me. If not, then you might as well, like you say, just use the standard Core ruleset....

On another note - I do apologise if any comments I have made seem overtly aggressive - they were never intended to be. I fully support people having their own opinions and likewise hope people consider my opinions (doesnt mean they have to except mine - just consider)...

Once again many thanks for the forum and I hope the comments enable the ruleset to progress forward...

I will relay the same information I provided to VtM and SFRPG in terms of what should be reported.

Things to Report
-If the functionality was there and is no longer working within ruleset.
-Performing a task creates an error in the console and is game breaking.
-If module data does not function with ruleset.
-Typos or wrong data within modules or ruleset.

The rest I would file under a feature request or new addition to the ruleset. These, you are correct, would be looked over and discussed as a future implementation. I would also be recommending to any devs that have created modules to subscribe to the bug report thread to keep things in one place to ensure things are not lost. This has been a success with most of the ruleset forums to keep things in one place.

ddavison
May 12th, 2021, 15:00
It's okay to provide reviews, criticism, bug reports, and feature requests. Those are all welcome and constructive. There is no need to apologize for sharing your opinion of the ruleset. It may help other potential buyers decide whether or not the product is suitable for them.

PhilAdams
May 13th, 2021, 16:14
Is anybody running a WOIN game - if so how?

I've run some Judge Dredd, some home-brew (my own dystopian cyberpunk/transhuman setting, as well as a sci-fi portal fantasy [pocket dimensions] setting), and this weekend will start a short Strontium Dogs scenario. WOIN is a high-potential/low-realization system, unfortunately. We enjoy using it, but it apparently hasn't managed to hit critical mass despite the 2000 AD licenses. Right now, I do a lot of manual data plugging (building a consistent skill list, for example...I'm not a fan of WOIN's "just make up a skill and tack it on" approach). If I had the time, I'd try to figure out how to put a module together to cut some corners.

My biggest gripe has been the apparent disappearance of NPC skill rolls, but it sounds like I may be misremembering them ever working in the first place. Weird.

Luvgod
November 11th, 2021, 18:01
Anyone still here? Is there a way to add luck dice onto an action roll? Those seem to to be the only ones you can drag onto a token or combat tracker to have it target the defenses

superteddy57
November 11th, 2021, 20:01
The ruleset is currently in maintenance mode. This means no further expansions currently. We are however providing bug fixes as they appear.

ColinBuckler
November 12th, 2021, 11:26
The ruleset is currently in maintenance mode. This means no further expansions currently. We are however providing bug fixes as they appear.

Disappointing - but it would be unreasonable to accept all rulesets to be developed/enhanced forever.

Being fair towards any new potential purchasers, I would suggest that the product is clearly marked on its store page to reflect that it is currently in maintenance mode (and other similar products) - you could make it a hyperlink to an information page to describe what a product being in maintenance mode actually means.

damned
November 12th, 2021, 11:49
Just curious - the publisher hasnt updated OLD in 2 years, NOW in 3 years and NEW in 4 years.
Does the same reasoning hold? Should the published put stickers on their books - hey we dont update this book any more.

Ultimately it seems there just isnt any demand for these products on FG. Yes - any is being used loosely here. By any I mean enough to justify continuing to sink time into the product. That isnt great if it is your game of choice but I cant see any realistic way forward. I dont recall ever seeing WOIN on the Games Being Played stats - not anywhere. At this point its probably moot whether its the game system or the ruleset - it seems there is not enough demand to continue dev on it.

jharp
November 12th, 2021, 14:59
Maybe they can get permission to unlock the ruleset? @ddavidson

HywelPhillips
November 12th, 2021, 15:50
It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'm interested in running some OLD because I like its freeform magic system, but the FG support isn't there for OLD- the bits missing are the main bits I'd actually want to focus on in my planned game.

So I have bought the rulesystem, found it a bit below-par for the specifics I want, so the game didn't get played, and WOIN doesn't appear in the stats.

I know this is a smart-alec take.

There are a HUGE number of systems out there, and each one is clearly a big investment of dev time.

The curse of FG is that it supports much greater automation than most of the VTT competition - but that also makes it much more work to develop a comprehensive ruleset, I imagine? From the consumer side it makes it feel like more of a limitation when the system as implemented delivers "only" as much as a Roll20 character sheet, because we're spoiled with 5E/PF/SWADE levels of automation.

I do think it is fair to say that some systems, like WOIN, have had a decent shot and just haven't "stuck" in the FG ecosystem. I'm a big fan of playing different systems but and there are many systems on my wish-list which don't even have the workable-but-less-than-ideal level of official ruleset support that WOIN has.

Bring on PBTA in a form that makes it easy to import new games onto the same framework, Dune and sister 2d20 systems, Coriolis, Forbidden Lands, Warhammer 4E with as good system support as Foundry, RuneQuest, Star Wars d6, Blades in the Dark and many more!

Cheers, Hywel

Luvgod
November 12th, 2021, 16:29
I understand that it's not worth committing developer time if there's little usage. I was just hoping I had missed something. Our group will play our first WOIN game this weekend

superteddy57
November 12th, 2021, 16:43
This has been discussed with quite a few other rulesets that I have been maintaining and expanding in maintenance mode. I am currently the one watching over Starfinder, Mutants and Masterminds, Basic Roleplaying, and Vampire the Masquerade. Maintenance mode does not mean the end or death of a system on Fantasy Grounds. What it means is further expansion for the code's current state will be slow and majority of work being performed will be towards bug reports and things that halt a play session. One example of this recently would be Starfinder. I have provided a ruleset expansion to accommodate the new Tech Revolution book. So, having the tag of maintenance mode is not a death nail or a finale for the system in question.

Viper007
November 16th, 2021, 01:55
Just curious - the publisher hasnt updated OLD in 2 years, NOW in 3 years and NEW in 4 years.
Does the same reasoning hold? Should the published put stickers on their books - hey we dont update this book any more.

Ultimately it seems there just isnt any demand for these products on FG. Yes - any is being used loosely here. By any I mean enough to justify continuing to sink time into the product. That isnt great if it is your game of choice but I cant see any realistic way forward. I dont recall ever seeing WOIN on the Games Being Played stats - not anywhere. At this point its probably moot whether its the game system or the ruleset - it seems there is not enough demand to continue dev on it.

Just curious - are you involved in the dev situation, do you work for FG?
Should FG drop all games that the publisher has not updated regularly?

Should the publisher's put stickers on their books, "Sorry, we don't update this anymore!"
Oh!, by the way, don't know how you got a copy, but thanks for buying it!!

Let's be real here, sure WOIN started out with a bang, got a lot of press and then moved to other things,
like Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog, etc. Let's be frank, EN publishing is not known for sticking with one thing, ever!

FG started producing the ruleset, so I presume they saw some interest there, and perhaps they were wrong, but
let's be real here again, the ruleset has never and I repeat here, has never been up to what it was purported to be!

Go back and look at the first post in this thread. Really, read it, the plans were there the issue is and was, the dev
didn't finish the product, FG didn't finish the product. I paid for it, others paid for it, it's not about the money, it was
about the expectation of what WOIN meant to me and what it meant to others, about having faith in buying the product.

You look for someone playing it, there are quite a few games that you don't see being played, should FG put all of them
into maintenance mode. Look at the post's following yours, some people are playing it!
I agree with Colin, FG should put a label on the product, but instead of "In Maintenance Mode", it should be,

"Never finished, never was, but we are still selling it!"

Some fools did, myself included!

damned
November 16th, 2021, 03:19
Just curious - are you involved in the dev situation, do you work for FG?
No and No. My comments are my own.


Should FG drop all games that the publisher has not updated regularly?
Lets keep my comments in the context they were made.
Companies and Individuals stop spending time on developing products for many reasons. They rarely put labels on them saying "this product is no longer being developed". Are there still errors or broken rules in many of the RPGs that you play? There certainly are in many that I have.


Should the publisher's put stickers on their books, "Sorry, we don't update this anymore!"
Oh!, by the way, don't know how you got a copy, but thanks for buying it!!
This happens every day. I daresay that every physical book I have bought has some errors or typos in it. And I have a lot of books.


Let's be real here, sure WOIN started out with a bang, got a lot of press and then moved to other things,
like Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog, etc. Let's be frank, EN publishing is not known for sticking with one thing, ever!

FG started producing the ruleset, so I presume they saw some interest there, and perhaps they were wrong, but
let's be real here again, the ruleset has never and I repeat here, has never been up to what it was purported to be!
I have some casual knowledge of how the product came to be on FG. In my opinion they way it happened to come to FG should never have happened and the current product is probably some justification of my opinion.


Go back and look at the first post in this thread. Really, read it, the plans were there the issue is and was, the dev
didn't finish the product, FG didn't finish the product. I paid for it, others paid for it, it's not about the money, it was
about the expectation of what WOIN meant to me and what it meant to others, about having faith in buying the product.

You look for someone playing it, there are quite a few games that you don't see being played, should FG put all of them
into maintenance mode. Look at the post's following yours, some people are playing it!
I agree with Colin, FG should put a label on the product, but instead of "In Maintenance Mode", it should be,

"Never finished, never was, but we are still selling it!"

Some fools did, myself included!

I know you say its not about the money - but it is either about the love of it or its about the money.
If the product sold 100x the number of units it has sold then this dev or another dev would continue its development.
It hasnt and its highly unlikely to.
Yes it sucks when this is the game you want to play and you dont have the product you hoped you would.
Im not defending the state of the product - Im simply sharing my opinion that this product will never have the sales to justify ongoing development of the product.

I will add a caveat to that.
The ruleset development might continue if there is someone who:
a) has some ability to program or willing to learn
b) loves the WOIN system
c) is willing to spend 50/100/200 hours on something mostly for the love of it

That is DCC, 2E, CoC, SavageWorlds, ICRPG, RMC.
There have been other abandoned products - Iron Kingdoms (is that what is was called?) was pulled because it was broken.
I dont play WOIN so I dont know how bad/limiting the interface is.
Sometimes "features" are missing, are clumsy or are broken.
They all limit but some are worse.

Viper007
November 16th, 2021, 04:44
No and No. My comments are my own.

Then why do you care, it seems that you are concerned about FG and it's business, but you don't work for them or seem to have any interest in WOIN?
So the context here is something I do not understand. Again, why do you care, if you don't play it, you don't work for FG, I guess that means you have
some other interest you have not divulged?


I have some casual knowledge of how the product came to be on FG. In my opinion they way it happened to come to FG should never have happened and the current product is probably some justification of my opinion.
If you don't want to share then I guess I can only wonder again, why do you care?


I know you say its not about the money - but it is either about the love of it or its about the money.
There are many reasons a person would look forward to something, it not always about money or love. Perhaps you are limiting your aspect, but then again, why do you care?


If the product sold 100x the number of units it has sold then this dev or another dev would continue its development.
It hasnt and its highly unlikely to.
Yes it sucks when this is the game you want to play and you dont have the product you hoped you would.
Im not defending the state of the product - Im simply sharing my opinion that this product will never have the sales to justify ongoing development of the product.
And again, you don't work for FG, you don't play WOIN, but you sure seem to be defensive about the fact WOIN is soaking up too much dev time! Again, why do you care?


I will add a caveat to that.
The ruleset development might continue if there is someone who:
a) has some ability to program or willing to learn
b) loves the WOIN system
c) is willing to spend 50/100/200 hours on something mostly for the love of it
The fact is that the ruleset HAS NEVER been finished to the point that it is completely playable, look at the threads and comments and the time that has passed. But then I guess you would buy a car with a door missing and call it ok!


That is DCC, 2E, CoC, SavageWorlds, ICRPG, RMC.
There have been other abandoned products - Iron Kingdoms (is that what is was called?) was pulled because it was broken.
I dont play WOIN so I dont know how bad/limiting the interface is.
Sometimes "features" are missing, are clumsy or are broken.
They all limit but some are worse.
One thing I agree with you on, is that WOIN is broken, however not pulled? Still in the shop for $19.99 plus adventures. Are you sure you don't work for FG?


Look Damned, I have seen your posts quite a few times on FG and I don't know you, but it seems that you are sticking you nose where it doesn't really belong or you have some other
agenda for weighing in on this thread. If you really want to help FG and others, be positive and find solutions to the problems instead of being negative about what you think should be
done about a ruleset you don't play, and a company you don't work for.

I would be more than willing to discuss how I can help in this ruleset's future, as well as NOW and OLD. If anyone wants to communicate with positive comments, that is what we should
be doing, not finding reasons not too! I'm not a programmer, I like the ruleset (not love), and don't mind spending time to help.

That being said, Damned, what do you have to offer?

jharp
November 16th, 2021, 04:57
Given Damned's participation in FG, and this forum in general he has already provided more than sufficient offerings. I think you just wish to find offence where none was intended.

Jason

Viper007
November 16th, 2021, 05:28
Given Damned's participation in FG, and this forum in general he has already provided more than sufficient offerings. I think you just wish to find offence where none was intended.

Jason

I am fully aware of Damned's participation in FG and the forums in general and he has been quite helpful in many instances. It is not my intention to look for offence if there was none, but let's look at the post.


Ultimately it seems there just isnt any demand for these products on FG. Yes - any is being used loosely here. By any I mean enough to justify continuing to sink time into the product. That isnt great if it is your game of choice but I cant see any realistic way forward. I dont recall ever seeing WOIN on the Games Being Played stats - not anywhere. At this point its probably moot whether its the game system or the ruleset - it seems there is not enough demand to continue dev on it.

Negativity reins in this comment and I just wonder why? And since Damned has no connection with the company or the game, what is his reasoning to post the comment on this thread. I like the ruleset and obviously you saw something in it as per your post:


Maybe they can get permission to unlock the ruleset? @ddavidson

I have been waiting for much longer than most to get full use of this ruleset and still look forward to the possibility. I even made a setting for it and it's on DTRPG, sadly I am no programmer, so I can't fix the ruleset. I know that's it's possible and for the life of me I can't understand the motive in his post.

Perhaps he meant nothing, perhaps he has a grudge he won't talk about, but why post those comments if you are trying to be helpful? Especially, if you don't work for the company, simply uncalled for!

jharp
November 16th, 2021, 05:46
I don't own the ruleset. A simple fact that one might say is negative in nature. However, this doesn't mean anything. It is simply a fact indicating a negative outcome.

"Ultimately it seems there just isn't any demand for these products on FG." is a fact given the information provided by SmiteWorks. It says nothing about anything other than WOIN isn't being played in FG. There doesn't have to be any reason other than what was said. Limited resources will be directed into areas where the most value can be obtained.

Sad but true. However, if SmiteWorks @ddavidson can somehow get the Ruleset out of the vault then maybe the ruleset will be worked on by someone else.

Jason

Viper007
November 16th, 2021, 06:09
I don't own the ruleset. A simple fact that one might say is negative in nature. However, this doesn't mean anything. It is simply a fact indicating a negative outcome.

"Ultimately it seems there just isn't any demand for these products on FG." is a fact given the information provided by SmiteWorks. It says nothing about anything other than WOIN isn't being played in FG. There doesn't have to be any reason other than what was said. Limited resources will be directed into areas where the most value can be obtained.

Sad but true. However, if SmiteWorks @ddavidson can somehow get the Ruleset out of the vault then maybe the ruleset will be worked on by someone else.

Jason

My apologies in the fact that I thought you had the ruleset. And it was a positive suggestion that is welcomed by myself.
However, your quote above seems that you have information I have not seen anywhere. Perhaps you would be so kind to link the information by Smiteworks, so that I can read it.

But it seems that your information about NEW not being played is in direct confrontation with the information below:


I understand that it's not worth committing developer time if there's little usage. I was just hoping I had missed something. Our group will play our first WOIN game this weekend

I understand you are coming to the rescue of Damned, and that is noble, but he can take of himself I think. As far as resources you speak of, is this the information you have, but not revealed, if so please enlighten me!

Again, my sincere apologies for misunderstanding your non-ownership of the ruleset.

taalo
November 16th, 2021, 07:49
EN World is still actively producing content for WOIN. While it's primarily with their Judge Dredd Line they produce content through their WOiN-related Patreon page which eventually makes its way to DrivethruRPG. WOIN's design is extremely modular and it's not been implemented to even have all the ruleset to make it fully work with NEW let alone adapting it to others. The equipment section has yet to be fully integrated with NEW (Dart ammo, Grenade types, and Special Ammunition), and things like the Shadow track, Cinematic Mode, and a place for the Hook and its Attribute (outside of the Descriptor) are all missing outright.

Then you get into buggy stuff like changing the Special Attribute doesn't change PSI Points, there are 2 types of currencies in all of WOiN's rulesets (cr/mcr in NEW) but there's only one on the sheet and it can't be edited even though there are currency options, unmodifiable Carry, one entry for SOAK even though at least two are needed (natural and armor - if not because of race/species then because of exploit, and they cover situations and damage types), Movement (less of a bug and more of a design choice) should be done like skills because Speed is a base stat modified by skill (there are 8 listed types of movement in NEW) and you don't list a movement type in which you don't have a skill or exploit, the actions tab is semi-automated and not listing where that automation came from makes it useless (and redundant with other parts of the sheet if you spend the time to figure it out). Then there's the d66 not being implemented in a functional way (d60+1d6 doesn't work with charts), at least with DCC a wonky way of using Zocchi dice was introduced even if the d20 has the wrong value listed when right-clicking it (but the Deed Die was done right, so why the problems with the d66?!).

It's frustrating that a product was sold when they had no intent on finishing it. Eventually listing the planned fixes and never implementing them is worse than never taking any actions - it's a lack of integrity move and at a minimum an anti-consumer stance.

jharp
November 16th, 2021, 15:15
Your right Viper007.

HywelPhillips
November 16th, 2021, 17:37
EN Publishing's Judge Dress licence is expiring and they are not producing anything more for it:

https://www.geeknative.com/136723/en-publishings-judge-dredd-rpg-to-end-as-license-expires-without-renewal/

I guess that kinda puts the lid on it. It's a shame, it seemed like a system with a bunch of interesting features.

Cheers, Hywel

Moon Wizard
November 16th, 2021, 18:25
As a company, the production of ruleset content for most systems is outside of our ability to develop and deliver for every possible RPG system. Due to that, we focus our efforts on the top few systems; and allow other publishers and developers to develop and sell content through our store while providing support to them while doing it.

Over time, we have found publishers and developers fade away for a variety of reasons (over which we do not have control); and we do our best to provide maintenance to keep the rulesets continuing to work in their current state; but as mentioned, we do not have the resources to do active development and expansion. Already, just the maintenance and support is a significant investment in our resources that pull us away from new development on the client and ruleset features. (just see the Laboratory threads)

Again, as a company, we never present that a given DLC developed by others will be different than what it does when it is released. In fact, I make a point to tell people that they should always buy products for what they are today vs. what anyone has suggested they might do in the future. (which I feel is true for everything, not just FG DLC.) That is one of the major reasons why we offer a no questions 30-day money-back guarantee on everything sold in our store.

If you feel that this system should be given more development and expansions, then you should reach out to the publisher and let them know, so that they can find a developer to improve the experience. Ultimately, they are the ones who pushed to release on the FG platform, and worked with the developer.

Regards,
JPG

ColinBuckler
November 16th, 2021, 20:32
I have purchased all of the available products on SW store for WOIN (as well as a number of other products from DriveThru) and as a product the implimentation of NEW has come along leaps and bounds over the last couple of months.

The game system is fantastic and so open

Is the implimentation perfect - no. Could it be better - yes.

How could it be better - well there are a couple of things that are really holding it back all due to the way its been implimented, these are:

(1) There are no NPC's from the NEW core rulebook provided in the NPC's window in FG. This is a real pain in the proverbial a$$ as the ruleset is not really useable out of the box, also this means no example/guidance on how to set NPC's

(2) The ruleset coding (not the game data) is locked in the vault (including the theme). This blocks customisation and inovation with the ruleset. It also means as users we can not pop the hood and have a look at the engine beneath to see whats wrong or to code our own routines.

If these could be resolved it would help significantly.

Viper007
November 20th, 2021, 01:57
OK, this will be lengthy, but bear with me here!!

October 5th, 2017, 23:32 #1 MBM-Early Access 31st December 2017. NOTE: Everyone happy!

October 28th, 2017, 04:40 #30 ddavison-There are plans to continue this to cover O.L.D. and N.O.W. when it becomes available. NOTE: 30 days almost up!

October 29th, 2017, 16:13 #70 MBM-There are lots of plans for the space side, for example Spaceship Combat Tracker and Spaceship Data (ie NPC), oddly I've already got the basics done for the Spaceship data. NOTE: Never Seen

March 4th, 2018, 03:21 #153 Viper007-NOTE: My first post, notice my 30 days is way up and I am still around, hoping the ruleset gets finished!!

July 22nd, 2018, 19:45 #194 MBM-NOTE: Last post from MBM until below, only six months!!

February 3rd, 2019, 13:37 #209 MBM-I have an update to WOIN for O.L.D, though O.L.D. was never updated to 1.2 which the ruleset is based upon. I've recently asked again for this and for N.O.W. but nothing has yet appeared. I'll chase again. NOTE: Still have plans for OLD and NOW, more bait to dangle!

March 2nd, 2019, 18:53 #217 MBM-Still zero news from EN Publishing about OLD or NOW, plus no other adventures to convert or anything else. NOTE: Still plans are in the works?

August 8th, 2019, 23:01 #249 MBM-NOTE: Kidney stone last 6 months, understood, but seems Traveller and other systems get more love.

November 23rd, 2019, 14:44 #280 MBM-Been working on WOIN, as I want to run Judge Dredd next year, so been addressing the lack of equipment you can create yourself (mostly done), have made sure all recent errata is done (and it is), plus has my ace theme guy (Dan Titan) update the theme to make it more efficient. I'll be sending this to internal test in the week. On a side note, I've been working on NOW, that should be ready for very early New Year. NOTE: Still plans for NOW, another dangling piece of bait!

Sadly I doubt Smiteworks will get the license for Judge Dredd, but I'll make sure the ruleset should work. NOTE: Make sure the ruleset works? Ohh, and two more months go by.

March 31st, 2020, 20:29 #289 MBM-NOTE: Still talking about OLD, and four more months go by. What! This is 2020!!!

October 9th, 2020, 11:07 #362 MBM-NOTE: He finally gives up and says so, nine months into 2020. But Smiteworks is still selling it and it's still not in a good state!!!

May 11th, 2021, 15:38 #440 ddavison-NOTE: We hear from the man himself after five years of MBM, don't know who Colin is, but he ruffled ddavison's feathers and everything was the truth. Anyway, I thought ok, things are going to move now and we'll get something done and a few things did happen, Yay!! But wait--

November 11th, 2021, 21:01 #449 superteddy57-The ruleset is currently in maintenance mode. This means no further expansions currently. We are however providing bug fixes as they appear. NOTE: Nice after five years, and bits of hope dangled in front of those interested over those five years. Good work there, Smiteworks!!

Fast forward to now:


If you feel that this system should be given more development and expansions, then you should reach out to the publisher and let them know, so that they can find a developer to improve the experience. Ultimately, they are the ones who pushed to release on the FG platform, and worked with the developer.

Now I have to add this bit of information, because of the statement, I went to man himself to find out!
50034

Am I upset, not really, just amazed at what can happen, when a company is not above board. I didn't do this, the ball was dropped by MBM, Smiteworks, and no one seemed to care to fix it, now it's over. I'm done with it! Now do I want a refund, yes, do I deserve a refund, yes, should I get interest on that money I lost, yes, will I get it, no!!

jharp
November 20th, 2021, 03:19
Have you asked for a refund?

ColinBuckler
November 20th, 2021, 10:02
My journey is not to dissimilar to Viper007 except that its only been about 7 - 8 months.

One of the reasons for choosing to do the ruleset for FGU over other products that offered "rulesets" for vtt (Foundry mainly) was the significant level of investment (93 entries on my orders page) I have already made in FGC/FGU over the years and the level of support received in the past.

Certainly looking back the development of this product has been very drawn out with repeatedly promises to add OLD and NOW to the list - even giving the impression that most of the development for OLD being completed.

The cause for all of this in my opinion is:

(1) One person performing the development on a ruleset potentially in isolation. Accepted that without one person picking up a ruleset the rtuleset may not have been developed.

(2) Lack of product management. No properly defined roadmap or timescales.

(3) The developer seemingly moved on to other products which appears to be more profitable and to us customers leaving the product with tales that the development woudl continue.

The real issues are for all intense and purposes this appears to be an official Smite Works product, if this was a 3rd party product purchased elsewhere I would not have felt so let down.

I have been disappointed in other products from SW but not as much as this one - I have since moved on from this FG ruleset, life is too short to wait, and count $41.97 spent a lesson learned - in fact looking back, these was the last products I purchased at SW back in May.

My only hopes are SW learn something from this in some way.

ddavison
November 21st, 2021, 02:46
If you feel that this system should be given more development and expansions, then you should reach out to the publisher and let them know, so that they can find a developer to improve the experience. Ultimately, they are the ones who pushed to release on the FG platform, and worked with the developer.


I believe I need to jump in here to post an update. Moon Wizard does not handle the publisher relationships and he is not privy to the details of communications that I and others in the company have with individual publishers. It is rare that a partnered publisher has much impact in how converted products end up on the system. Some publishers have a degree of interaction with developers and a few publishers even seek their own developers to conduct work. In the case of EN Publishing, they did not choose or direct any of the development on WOIN. They did provide access to resources that we could use for the conversion and they did occasionally write in to say that they liked the progress that they saw, or to comment when there didn't seem to be much progress.


In Nov 2015, Russ reached out to ask us about converting WOIN into a ruleset for Fantasy Grounds. We said that we would be happy to send it out to a list of developers who do work on FG. One of our community developers (Foen) jumped in and began work.
In July 2016, we original dev stepped down and we handed the project to MadBeardMan (Colin)
In 2017, Russ conducted a test session with the developer to test out the ruleset. We should note that Russ was not familiar with Fantasy Grounds at the time and at various times he responded that things looked awesome or great whenever Colin or I shared stuff with him.
We launched in Oct 2017 with N.E.W. and followed quickly with Trailblazer 9 Heavy (N.E.W.)
We launched Xenomorphs: The Fall of Somerset Landing (N.E.W.) on Jan 18, 2018


Throughout the process, we had positive interactions between us, the community developer and EN Publishing. I will tell you that no publisher likes to hear complaints about their products and especially not complaints in an area where the publisher has no way to correct or accommodate the customer. In 2019, Russ received a handful of complaints about the system on FG and it reflected poorly on both companies. I recommended possibly expanding our refund policy beyond 30 days to cover this but didn't get a response from Russ on whether or not that was acceptable. The ruleset didn't really sell many copies.

OLD was supposedly nearly done many times in the past but never made it to "fully complete". The expectations of the fan base for this system play an obvious role here. OLD would be very much like NEW and people don't like the degree of automation in the ruleset for NEW. The amount of work required by the developer to support each new product has been cost prohibitive. Modeling the contents of a new game system where mechanics can drastically change for each new book presents obvious challenges. As Moon Wizard stated, SmiteWorks does not have resources to devote to these projects and therefore we rely upon a large host of community developers who tackle these projects.

I have always thought that it is better to have an automation lite version of a game system than to not have any support for a game system at all. Our product page should always be accurate and this is what you should use to justify whether or not you want to buy a product. If you are unhappy with it for any reason, you can ask for a full refund any time within 30 days. You can ask for a refund outside of this period and we sometimes honor it within reason. You can play any game you want on Fantasy Grounds even without a ruleset. The N.E.W. products we sell essentially give you the entire contents of a PDFs but with more functionality. Could it have even better functionality and support for the other related products? Sure. Does it make financial sense for the community dev to spend hundreds of hours adding those things when they can get a better return on their investment elsewhere? No.

Maintenance mode means that SmiteWorks is devoting resources to fix reported bugs with the ruleset but that we will not be adding new features.

I can reach out to Russ to see if he would mind us moving this out of the vault so people can crack it open. If he is okay with that and someone else wants to take up the reigns to lead the development of new projects and products for WOIN, then that is perfectly fine with us. I would love to see WOIN grow from a loyal fanbase of the game system.

Viper007
November 22nd, 2021, 03:13
I believe I need to jump in here to post an update.

After five years, looks like you should have jumped in more often, but hey, it's your company!


Moon Wizard does not handle the publisher relationships and he is not privy to the details of communications that I and others in the company have with individual publishers. It is rare that a partnered publisher has much impact in how converted products end up on the system. Some publishers have a degree of interaction with developers and a few publishers even seek their own developers to conduct work. In the case of EN Publishing, they did not choose or direct any of the development on WOIN. They did provide access to resources that we could use for the conversion and they did occasionally write in to say that they liked the progress that they saw, or to comment when there didn't seem to be much progress.


In Nov 2015, Russ reached out to ask us about converting WOIN into a ruleset for Fantasy Grounds. We said that we would be happy to send it out to a list of developers who do work on FG. One of our community developers (Foen) jumped in and began work.
In July 2016, we original dev stepped down and we handed the project to MadBeardMan (Colin)
In 2017, Russ conducted a test session with the developer to test out the ruleset. We should note that Russ was not familiar with Fantasy Grounds at the time and at various times he responded that things looked awesome or great whenever Colin or I shared stuff with him.
We launched in Oct 2017 with N.E.W. and followed quickly with Trailblazer 9 Heavy (N.E.W.)
We launched Xenomorphs: The Fall of Somerset Landing (N.E.W.) on Jan 18, 2018


Throughout the process, we had positive interactions between us, the community developer and EN Publishing. I will tell you that no publisher likes to hear complaints about their products and especially not complaints in an area where the publisher has no way to correct or accommodate the customer. In 2019, Russ received a handful of complaints about the system on FG and it reflected poorly on both companies. I recommended possibly expanding our refund policy beyond 30 days to cover this but didn't get a response from Russ on whether or not that was acceptable. The ruleset didn't really sell many copies.

OLD was supposedly nearly done many times in the past but never made it to "fully complete". The expectations of the fan base for this system play an obvious role here. OLD would be very much like NEW and people don't like the degree of automation in the ruleset for NEW. The amount of work required by the developer to support each new product has been cost prohibitive. Modeling the contents of a new game system where mechanics can drastically change for each new book presents obvious challenges. As Moon Wizard stated, SmiteWorks does not have resources to devote to these projects and therefore we rely upon a large host of community developers who tackle these projects.

It seems like Morrus and Russ don't talk to each other, according the reply I got, but hey it's whatever you say!


I have always thought that it is better to have an automation lite version of a game system than to not have any support for a game system at all. Our product page should always be accurate and this is what you should use to justify whether or not you want to buy a product. If you are unhappy with it for any reason, you can ask for a full refund any time within 30 days. You can ask for a refund outside of this period and we sometimes honor it within reason. You can play any game you want on Fantasy Grounds even without a ruleset. The N.E.W. products we sell essentially give you the entire contents of a PDFs but with more functionality. Could it have even better functionality and support for the other related products? Sure. Does it make financial sense for the community dev to spend hundreds of hours adding those things when they can get a better return on their investment elsewhere? No.

It's not the automation, that's just another excuse for not doing your job! It's the fact, that it took five years to get it to the point it is now and it still has problems, albeit some are minor! FIVE YEARS, how long did you expect someone to wait for an unfinished, NOT AUTOMATED, product to be corrected. I repeat FIVE YEARS!!!


Maintenance mode means that SmiteWorks is devoting resources to fix reported bugs with the ruleset but that we will not be adding new features.

NEW FEATURES?? Hell, do you read the posts in the last five years? It's not new features that we are talking about, it about stuff that should have been in it from the start, look at Colin's post, are they too much to ask for? Sure everyone wants NOW and OLD and if you had a brain, you could be selling three rulesets instead of one, which by the way, you are still selling in it's current state. But it's about the money, right??


I can reach out to Russ to see if he would mind us moving this out of the vault so people can crack it open. If he is okay with that and someone else wants to take up the reigns to lead the development of new projects and products for WOIN, then that is perfectly fine with us. I would love to see WOIN grow from a loyal fanbase of the game system.

Sound decision, a little late, but hey what's five years? I have very little time to be waiting on a company that I once thought was a very good investment and defended to others when they complained about the cost and the age of FG. Being very near my life's end, it really bother's me that a company has more excuses than action. Do I want you to loose money, no, do I want you to continue investing and making FG one of the premier VTT's in the business, YES. Will I be a part of that, sadly, not anymore!! I went to my purchase list and I personally have spent $616.51 with FG!!! Since, we are talking excuses more than action, perhap's I will take my next dollar and spend it on another VTT, you know Roll20, Foundry VTT and others will gladly take my money.

As I said before, done with it!!

ddavison
November 22nd, 2021, 13:49
I'm sorry to hear that you are unhappy with the product and the support for the ruleset you wanted to use. This is why we offer refunds. You should only buy a product based on what it does today and not by what you hope it will be one day. The entire contents of the PDF is included in each of these products and you have the ability to roll any dice you need, take any notes you need, and fully play the game. Character sheets, combat tracker automation, ship records, etc. are all extra features that are very nice to have but none of those is required to play a game on Fantasy Grounds. If you were unhappy with the amount of extra features provided for the ruleset, you should requested a refund much, much earlier in the process.

Development does not always go as planned and businesses regularly adjust resources and plans based on revenue projections. No other VTT attempted to produce a ruleset or products for WOIN that I am aware of.

taalo
November 22nd, 2021, 19:49
As a side note, we don't have all the dice we need. The d66 has been implemented as a d60 in which we roll an additional d6. d66 is commonly used in many RPGs and modules (including D&D) so getting that right will help you when you come across that again.

We're all familiar with the woes of development and you can tell that emotions are running high around here. Continuing to imply that it's our fault that we own the game when you made the active choice to make it abandonware is a bad move. I've worked in the (video) gaming industry for years and am very familiar with choices made to rush out products. Even with the now popular choice to release an unfinished and buggy mess, the games have to be finished or the backlash is great. The early adopters of any product are always going to be the biggest fans of that product and if they don't sign off on it no one else will, and that's a long-established business practice regardless of the product. Don't burn that audience, it always affects more than just the one product they're behind because they're also often the whales. Developing an apologetic tone will soothe more than saying we should've gotten a refund. We're still here because we love WOiN and want to have a place to play it and you made promises that it would be here in selling the product. When we showed up and saw that it was a mess we all offered to help because we were your early adopters. So don't chase us off, find a way to make it right in a way that you can afford. If that means opening it up so that we can do it ourselves, awesome. If that means you're gonna spend time to complete a product you sell at full price, awesome.

As far as people willing to spend the time fixing the game... I was one who volunteered and was pushed off because another had already stepped up. I imported most of WOiNs books into the system and my feedback was based on not only limitations in the foundation of how WOiN was implemented but also on NOW and OLD. I also had feedback that would affect other modules and splat books. The only thing ever fixed was adding poisons into the game, but the rest were never implemented (including the rest of the equipment section for NEW). The response we got back was that there was no real way to change the system until it got onto the schedule which couldn't be disclosed to the public - leaving us wondering when changes are going to be made. All that it really means is that WOiN has always been on the back burner, and the person given the ability to make changes had limited access. There's been this big game of smoke and mirrors and I think we just want more straightforward answers from here on out.

ddavison
November 22nd, 2021, 22:50
Russ, aka Morrus, at ENWorld is okay with us moving this from the vault to the data folder. There are currently a set of changes queued up in development around the sidebar, theming and a few other things though that we are investigating. To be safe, we will look to release it out of the vault on the Test channel after we do a big global release on Dec 7.

Moon Wizard
November 22nd, 2021, 22:56
Our target is Dec. 7, though the date may shift slightly depending on the testing and delivery cycle.

Regards,
JPG

ColinBuckler
November 22nd, 2021, 22:58
Russ, aka Morrus, at ENWorld is okay with us moving this from the vault to the data folder. There are currently a set of changes queued up in development around the sidebar, theming and a few other things though that we are investigating. To be safe, we will look to release it out of the vault on the Test channel after we do a big global release on Dec 7.

This is great news.

Thank you very much for looking into this and discussing with Russ. This is a huge step forward.

Viper007
November 22nd, 2021, 23:51
I was going to quote ddavison's post, but that would be redundant and quite frankly, my faith in him and his company is completely gone. I made a setting for N.E.W. and presented it on DTRPG, it included a toolkit to make quadrants, planets, moons and more. I even included a FG module which had everything the toolkit included and tables to create the aforementioned items even easier. Hell, I even made a little money, too! I was intending to create some adventures (which were in the works), especially when I learned of the forge, but that's going to go somewhere else now! The possibilities were endless, but some people can't honestly say "Yep, we messed up!"

My thanks go out to those who hung on as long as I did or more, it was a long painful journey! Taalo's, ColinBuckler, and others (who I cannot remember, getting too old) may your future with this company be better than mine. I use the tag Viper007 almost always, so if you all are in another VTT, look me up!

Take care,
Viper007

Trenloe
November 23rd, 2021, 01:03
@Viper007 - I've been very, very surprised by your level of anger in the last week. Your post a week ago was full of "let's be real" statements - and that's mostly what people have tried to be here - realistic. You see realism as negativity, not helping, sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong, and have asked posters why they care and if they have some other agenda. Quite frankly I'm flabbergasted at the conclusions you've jumped to in your micro dissection of everyone's posts in the last week, and the borderline insults you've thrown at some people. You're frustrated and very angry, that's clear; but I think you've gone off the rails a bit here and have contributed to any negativity yourself.

I don't want to get into a war of words with you, because it seems you've completely made up your mind and have way too much time on your hands to sit and mull this over. I like to look for solutions, so I'll put this back to you (if you care at this point). Since this discussion blew up a week ago Doug has already been in touch with Russ at En World and has their permission to move the code from the vault to be unencrypted - so within the last week there has been progress made with one of the big things mentioned recently in this thread. Once this is released, currently planned for December, this will allow people to modify the code via extensions (as many community developers do for other rulesets) and will also hopefully provide some fixes and updates that users feel improve the ruleset use. Other than this, what else are you realistically looking for in this ruleset?

ddavison
November 23rd, 2021, 01:14
I was going to quote ddavison's post, but that would be redundant and quite frankly, my faith in him and his company is completely gone. I made a setting for N.E.W. and presented it on DTRPG, it included a toolkit to make quadrants, planets, moons and more. I even included a FG module which had everything the toolkit included and tables to create the aforementioned items even easier. Hell, I even made a little money, too! I was intending to create some adventures (which were in the works), especially when I learned of the forge, but that's going to go somewhere else now! The possibilities were endless, but some people can't honestly say "Yep, we messed up!"

My thanks go out to those who hung on as long as I did or more, it was a long painful journey! Taalo's, ColinBuckler, and others (who I cannot remember, getting too old) may your future with this company be better than mine. I use the tag Viper007 almost always, so if you all are in another VTT, look me up!

Take care,
Viper007

We have 2,069 products in our store and the vast majority of these are built and converted by commissioned developers. We built a platform that allows any game system to be played and the customization of rulesets that make gameplay for those systems even better than they would be with a more generic ruleset. Not every product has the same level of features or polish as every other system. We require that the store page descriptions are accurate and that if bugs are not being addressed, we maintain the right and ability to shift it to another developer. We can't create new, interested and experienced developers out of thin air. These are not our employees. They are members of the community. Two different developers from the community looked at this and the first one walked away and the second one did his best attempt at the ruleset. It is up to you decide if you wanted the product or not. Some people requested refunds for the product and others did not -- just like every other product on our platform. We offer a 30-day no questions asked refund policy and we extend this beyond that period on a case-by-case basis specifically for this reason.

Are you saying that you think we should have never offered the WOIN ruleset at all? Or are you saying that we should only offer products that our internal developers can devote the same amount of time that we do to premiere rulesets like D&D fifth edition?

We frequently get people who complain that we don't support every popular Kickstarter or game system of the month. I'm not sure where these people think the resources come to support all these systems. I'm very proud of the amount of support that our community developer approach has created and I will never feel the need to apologize for that. Our approach has empowered a lot of gamers to play their favorite system, it has allowed a lot of community developers to make money doing something they enjoy, and it has helped provide an extra source of revenue for hundreds of companies and indie authors. I would certainly prefer for every ruleset or conversion to be top notch and well received by the community, but I am very much in favor of imperfect options versus no option. There is not a single VTT that does it better IMO.

Viper007
November 23rd, 2021, 02:29
@Viper007 - realistic. Realism is saying, "Yep, we could have done better and really getting serious!! So I guess you see realism as who cares if it takes five years to get something done, like taking it out of the vault. Too little too late!!! You see realism as negativity, not helping, sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong, and have asked posters why they care and if they have some other agenda. Quite frankly I'm flabbergasted at the conclusions you've jumped to in your micro dissection of everyone's posts in the last week, and the borderline insults you've thrown at some people. You're frustrated and very angry, that's clear; but I think you've gone off the rails a bit here and have contributed to any negativity yourself. And it took FIVE years for me to get to that point, YES

I don't want to get into a war of words with you, because it seems you've completely made up your mind and have way too much time on your hands to sit and mull this over. I like to look for solutions, so I'll put this back to you (if you care at this point). Since this discussion blew up a week ago Doug has already been in touch with Russ at En World and has their permission to move the code from the vault to be unencrypted - so within the last week there has been progress made with one of the big things mentioned recently in this thread. Once this is released, currently planned for December, this will allow people to modify the code via extensions (as many community developers do for other rulesets) and will also hopefully provide some fixes and updates that users feel improve the ruleset use. Other than this, what else are you realistically looking for in this ruleset?

Now that you have said your peace, let me ask you something! Would you buy a car that has so many things wrong with it, it was un-driveable from the start, wait patiently for FIVE years to get fixed. Still have a door missing, a tire out of round, amongst other things and then find out somethings are getting fixed, then the car is discontinued and you see that the car company is just now getting on it after FIVE, FIVE, FIVE years? Now you are in business, compare this to a computer in the same state, would be hard to work with, would it not? Software has had it too easy in that you can do what you want, fix it or not, and get by with it. Pump your brakes, fix the thing's people have been talking about for FIVE years and be a real company and say "Hey, were sorry, we will work harder!"

Now, ddavision I am not going to dissect your post, because evidently I have made everyone really upset because I have been honest and backed up by people other than myself or I guess it's just the fact you all can't go back through the posts and READ!! Your a company supplying rulesets for games. Let's compare N.E.W. (the actual rules) to the N.E.W. ruleset that started in 2017!! If Russ or Morrus whichever, sold people a half written game told the consumer's you'll get the rest after FIVE years, would you buy it? I guess since your business is software, you can get by with that, because people have to buy it, before they can try it!!

And this 30 day guarantee is just an excuse, sure, if the game had been finished before I bought it and I knew that fact, I would have asked for a refund. But since I trusted the company to do the right thing, I and others should suffer, right? It's not about the money, it's not about the game now, it's about FG. Get off your high horse, be honest say you are sorry for the fact it took FIVE years and Damned's post for pissing me off!! Is to too much to ask to say "Ok, I should have been watching closer!", "Ok, MBM treatment of the system was downright shitty!!", I don't care what his problems are, I have problems too. But when I take a job on, it's done, it's right and if not, I make it right!! And most of all, I tell the customer I am sorry for the problems, HONESTLY!!

If you want realism, honesty and truth, your company dropped the ball more times than I can count, quit saying what do you expect and say honestly you ****** up! You want my business, that's what it will take!!

ddavison
November 23rd, 2021, 04:10
My understanding, possibly incorrectly, was that N.E.W. was playable from the beginning but that it was rough around the edges. If it was as bad as you insist, then a refund should have been a super obvious response. If you are saying that W.O.I.N. can't exist with just N.E.W. without O.L.D., then that is something I hadn't really considered. My understanding was that they were separate systems with separate mechanics that had to be covered, but that they could be integrated together with some amount of effort. We were told by the community developer many times that O.L.D. was basically finished or nearly done, but we rely upon the developer to tell us when something is ready to submit to testing and deployment. With some of the bugs and issues with N.E.W., we definitely didn't want to push for a release of O.L.D. before the developer even thought it was complete.

Our options as a company are to a) wait for the community dev to provide a finished copy to review, b) scrap any work that has already been done and ask a new developer to redo the work from scratch (if there is an interested dev), or c) take internal resources off the project they are working on to work on a system that has far fewer fans. The only really viable option is a). By putting the ruleset into maintenance mode, we are essentially doing a modified version of option C, but we are limiting our costs to only cover bugs and not new features or new content. If someone else volunteers to add new content or features, we would be happy to contract them out as a community dev to do so.

N.E.W. has been out on Fantasy Grounds for 4 year now and it produced about $160 a year in revenue for the community dev. If we calculated the average hourly rate for the amount of work the dev put in on it, it is very hard to blame him for not wanting to invest more time and resources into it. With just the emails and support that we've done already by the company, it has probably cost us more than we ever made on the product. Any maintenance dev work we do on it from here on out, now that we moved it to our dev staff will definitely make this a losing proposition financially. Most companies will simply not do products unless they are going to be profitable. We have no indication that O.L.D. would be profitable.

Trenloe
November 23rd, 2021, 04:39
@viper007 - What Doug has been trying to get across to you is that the vast majority of the over 2,000 DLC products have been produced by community developers. These aren't SmiteWorks employees who can be forced into doing things in a certain way. These developers don't earn a cent until the product they develop goes on sale and someone buys it. Yes, sometimes some of those 2,000+ products does not live up the expectations of some customers and the developer can be asked to fix those issues; if that developer has moved on then there's little that SmiteWorks can do to cajole them into doing work - even if that developer had said that they were going to do that work and provide specific functionality in the future. They're not SmiteWorks employees and their comments can't be taken as commitments from SmiteWorks - which is why SmiteWorks always say "buy a product for what it is now, not what it might be in the future" - they can't possibly control what a community developer does, and when and how they do it (if at all). They haven't messed up in my opinion (I know you strongly disagree with that) as this is the standard process for developing over 2,000 FG DLC products, the vast majority of which are of an at least acceptable standard. Sometimes that process fails, for many reasons, in this case it's due to developer activities beyond SmiteWorks control. They've transitioned the ruleset to bug fix/CoreRPG compatibility (which will allow new CoreRPG features to be added in future) but they would lose significant money if they took on the development of the ruleset directly. I know this is not what you want, but a very small niche software company can't possibly afford to knowingly commit maybe 100+ hours of development time with product sales providing enough commission to cover only a handful of those hours.

I find your posts confusing - you say "too little to late" for a significant step forwards in making the ruleset code available to all people who own the ruleset, but then later you say that you'll continue to be a customer if just someone from SmiteWorks said they messed up. I really don't know where you're coming from and if your anger and resentment could ever be appeased.

Viper007
November 23rd, 2021, 06:30
My understanding, possibly incorrectly, was that N.E.W. was playable from the beginning but that it was rough around the edges. If it was as bad as you insist, then a refund should have been a super obvious response.

You keep going back to the refund, it's not about the money, it was FG's inability to explain to the customer things you are saying five years later and the fact you were selling an unfinished (at that time product, which was getting very little care, and this is shown in the thread.) Someone wasn't watching, FG didn't care (seemingly) and evidently can't read threads. You are the seller, I am the buyer, you sell the product, I buy the product, if the product is not what it should be, gaurantee or not, you will lose business. The difference is and was that MBM was bouncing around doing whatever, didn't cover the bases he needed to cover, FG ignored the fact and did nothing until people complained, not once, but all through the threads, and five years later, you don't understand why I am upset! Is it really that hard to understand?


If you are saying that W.O.I.N. can't exist with just N.E.W. without O.L.D., then that is something I hadn't really considered. My understanding was that they were separate systems with separate mechanics that had to be covered, but that they could be integrated together with some amount of effort. We were told by the community developer many times that O.L.D. was basically finished or nearly done, but we rely upon the developer to tell us when something is ready to submit to testing and deployment. With some of the bugs and issues with N.E.W., we definitely didn't want to push for a release of O.L.D. before the developer even thought it was complete.

This shows that you really don't know anything about the product that you (FG) are selling.


Our options as a company are to a) wait for the community dev to provide a finished copy to review, b) scrap any work that has already been done and ask a new developer to redo the work from scratch (if there is an interested dev), or c) take internal resources off the project they are working on to work on a system that has far fewer fans. The only really viable option is a). By putting the ruleset into maintenance mode, we are essentially doing a modified version of option C, but we are limiting our costs to only cover bugs and not new features or new content. If someone else volunteers to add new content or features, we would be happy to contract them out as a community dev to do so.

That should have been done at one point but wasn't, there are huge time gaps (again, read the posts) where nothing was being done, sorry, but if I have a contractor not doing his job, he gets warned, and if it keeps occurring, fired! Where was your QA, evidently not reading the posts!!


N.E.W. has been out on Fantasy Grounds for 4 year now and it produced about $160 a year in revenue for the community dev. If we calculated the average hourly rate for the amount of work the dev put in on it, it is very hard to blame him for not wanting to invest more time and resources into it. With just the emails and support that we've done already by the company, it has probably cost us more than we ever made on the product. Any maintenance dev work we do on it from here on out, now that we moved it to our dev staff will definitely make this a losing proposition financially. Most companies will simply not do products unless they are going to be profitable. We have no indication that O.L.D. would be profitable.

You keep going back to OLD, and I assume NOW, but what you still do not understand is that his revenue would probably be greatly increased, if he had given the ruleset the care it needed! There are quite a few posts from people on the thread that got refunds, I'm sure there were quite a few that didn't ask for one reason or another. Those people that I mentioned, left quite a few posts explaining their reasons. Again, is it there fault or mine that FG wasn't following the progress (even though I thought they were)! Everyone from you, damned, trenloe, and moon wizard have explained to me your reasons, but actually, not one has said, "Hey, I understand your frustration, let me see what I can do about this!", it would have made the last five years at least understandable, but no, FG is more concerned with why they couldn't, not what they could do, until now!

I don't really care about your business practices, as I am sure you don't care about mine. Buy a toaster and it don't work, take it back!! Buy one and the warranty goes out, I am out of luck! Your gaurantee is only as good as your business and products which (if you read the posts) were up, down, down, up, down,etc.

I tell you what, send me a PM, saying what you would to a customer who was standing in front of you that bought this product from FG as was(is) dissatisfied. Do that and I will cease beating a dead horse! That will provide an outcome that will be beneficial for myself and you, for I will either move on or continue to be a satisfied customer!

Trenloe
November 23rd, 2021, 15:37
Everyone from you, damned, trenloe, and moon wizard have explained to me your reasons, but actually, not one has said, "Hey, I understand your frustration, let me see what I can do about this!"
Err, not so. In my first post in this thread, I made the following question directly to you:


I like to look for solutions, so I'll put this back to you (if you care at this point). Since this discussion blew up a week ago Doug has already been in touch with Russ at En World and has their permission to move the code from the vault to be unencrypted - so within the last week there has been progress made with one of the big things mentioned recently in this thread. Once this is released, currently planned for December, this will allow people to modify the code via extensions (as many community developers do for other rulesets) and will also hopefully provide some fixes and updates that users feel improve the ruleset use. Other than this, what else are you realistically looking for in this ruleset?

All you did was come back with "Too little too late!!!" which suggested to me that you're not interested in actually getting your issues with this ruleset addressed. You keep going on about "5 years!", let's try and get past that - for whatever reasons, we are where we are. I specifically asked you to look for solutions, but you either missed my question or chose to ignore it.



Buy a toaster and it don't work, take it back!! Buy one and the warranty goes out, I am out of luck!
You say it's not about the money, but this statements seems to suggest that is in there somewhere. Doug has mentioned more than once that they do refunds after 30 days in exceptional circumstances, and earlier in this you were asked "Have you asked for a refund?" which I didn't see a response to. I can't speak for SmiteWorks, but I would imagine this situation would class as an exceptional circumstance. If you're really not looking for a refund, or haven't actually requested one, then analogies such as this just confuse things.


This shows that you really don't know anything about the product that you (FG) are selling.
The vast majority of company presidents don't know the minutiae of how third party products they deal with work in detail. SmiteWorks have over 2,000 DLC products, covering many RPG products - it's a bit of a stretch to expect the president of a company to know details of every single product they deal with. They'll rely on others to tell them information - Doug admits exactly this in his responses to you and takes on board the new information.

I know you're angry, upset and frustrated - but posts like this really don't help find a solution to your issues.


That should have been done at one point but wasn't, there are huge time gaps (again, read the posts) where nothing was being done, sorry, but if I have a contractor not doing his job, he gets warned, and if it keeps occurring, fired!
As the post you quoted was saying, this essentially happened - I'm not a SmiteWorks employee so I can't speak for exactly what happened; MBM stopped working on the ruleset (either resigned, was essentially "sacked" or some other arrangement) and SmiteWorks took on the project in maintenance mode and have said multiple times that if another dev wants to take on the work the will be happy to contract them.

You’ve mentioned “I don't really care about your business practices…” but please try to take this on board. FG content developers do their FG work in their spare time (for pretty much pennies in renumeration). This is not a standard “contractor” situation as applies to most other industries. Developers work around their day jobs and other real-life commitments, and pretty much do this for the love of the system they’re converting and for Fantasy Grounds – most developer’s hourly rate would work out as well below the minimum wage. If SmiteWorks overly pressured FG developers, or sacked them for not meeting other industry standards, then there would be a lot, lot less DLC products in the FG store than there are now. There are many more products waiting for FG developers – SmiteWorks don’t have a line of people waiting to take on developing products. FG developers do their work for the love of the system, they can’t possibly make a career of it.

Hence SmiteWorks generally have to wait for a developer to submit their work, and not pressure them to try to meet specific timelines – otherwise a lot of FG developers would walk away. At some point they have to make a decision – and it appears that was made in this case, with SmiteWorks taking on the ruleset maintenance and being open to a new developer taking over. Yes, you see this as way too late, but FG developers frequently take a few years to submit products, especially complex products like rulesets.

You probably don’t want to hear all of this, you say you don’t care, but this is the situation that SmiteWorks is in. Please keep this in mind.


I tell you what, send me a PM, saying what you would to a customer who was standing in front of you that bought this product from FG as was(is) dissatisfied. Do that and I will cease beating a dead horse! That will provide an outcome that will be beneficial for myself and you, for I will either move on or continue to be a satisfied customer!
Yeah, maybe you should have gone the direct route to start with rather than post in a public forum and angrily respond to community members trying to provide feedback - I’m referring to your comments regarding people sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong, and have asked posters why they care and if they have some other agenda.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I’m not sure what you’re actually looking for. You either missed or ignored when I asked what you wanted to see in the ruleset – so I’m guessing that any ruleset changes will be “too little too late”; which doesn’t actually help other users of this ruleset, nor address the core issues that this thread deals with. It seems you’re basically looking for an apology from SmiteWorks – I could be wrong, apologies if I am, but I’m guessing that if you did get an apology you probably wouldn’t leave it at that and would use it as a bigger stick to beat that dead horse!

Anyway, I’m a community moderator who got involved in this thread because insults were beginning to be thrown. Your frustration has been taken into account, but some of your posts were getting personal. I’m also a FG community developer – so I fully understand the process and the challenges that both SmiteWorks and the community developers face.

I recommend you engage directly with SmiteWorks to address your issues. Airing them in a public forum, and shooting down community members feedback, hasn’t been constructive and has just caused more frustration and angst. I hope you follow this route and get a satisfactory resolution to your issues.

HywelPhillips
November 23rd, 2021, 17:46
I'd just like to interject that I very much appreciate the explanations and the efforts put in both SmiteWorks staff and community developers into this ruleset and every ruleset on here.

It's easy to fall into assuming that companies you interact with online are much bigger, richer and better resourced that they really are. There's precious little money in the RPG sphere in the first place. To a first approximation the industry is still D&D, with the only non-D&D-derived system reliably cracking more than 10% share of play stats being Call of Cthulhu. So the majority of money and resources are in D&D, with some leftovers for D&D spinoffs and derivatives (Paizo, Kobold Press, et al.). The majority of money still seems to go on hardbacks, with leftovers going to PDFs (DriveThruRPG, DMSGuild). Leftovers of leftovers go to make things like D&D Beyond, Roll20, Fantasy Grounds and Foundry a viable business.

But when it comes to small systems we're talking leftovers of leftovers of leftovers of leftovers. Then further support into modules and rules expansions are leftovers even of that.

It's no wonder devs come and go if there is only $160 a year in it. It's remarkable we get any supported platforms beyond D&D and its derivatives at all in that case. We should always bear that number in mind next time we complain about something being less than we'd like.


I have a lot of sympathy. I sometimes get customers emailing me when a delivery link email hasn't got through saying "can't you get one of your people to talk to your internet service provider and fix this"? Like... "my people"? There's 80% FTE of me and about 10% of my wife, dude, we don't have people, the sum total of us working on this business is only about 90% of one person full time equivalent. I take the photos or film the videos and edit them and deliver them to you using the tools we can get off the shelf. We may look like a proper company because we have a website, but were are TINY.

ALL RPG companies are tiny. Even the big ones have a turnover less than your local McDonalds franchise restaurant.

Be nice!

Cheers, Hywel

HywelPhillips
November 23rd, 2021, 17:58
P.S. In a spirit of constructive suggestions, for anyone who is looking for a system which does most of what WOIN promises to deliver but which is so well supported that it makes running in on FG an absolute pleasure... try Savage Worlds (SWADE).

For sure SWADE is less crunchy than WOIN, so it might not be to your taste. It has an effect-based system for magic rather than the "cause-based" freeform magic system in OLD, which was one of the main draws of the system for me. SWADE has surprising tactical depth and mechanical elegance when you get your head around it. You could replicate the cause-based magic in SWADE using trappings I suppose but it would be less than ideal. On the other hand for modern action film stuff and fast-playing SciFi, SWADE works really well.

In terms of flexibility covering multiple eras and settings with a common ruleset, simple setting rules to customise the look-and-feel a bit for different genres, SWADE does it (IMO) even better than OLD/NOW/NEW. And the automation in FG is an absolute delight.

I ended up running the games I'd planned for WOIN in SWADE instead and really enjoyed them.

Cheers, Hywel

ddavison
November 23rd, 2021, 18:46
What I would tell a customer in person is the same thing I would tell them publicly on the forums. First off, I would say that we are sorry that they are unhappy with the product or service that they received. If it is in our power to correct or fix this with a reasonable amount of efforts and expense on our part, then we would try to do that. If we can't, then I would explain to them that our solution in those cases is to offer a refund policy that is very generous in my opinion. I would do my best to explain the reasoning on why we may or may not be able to meet certain requests.

Regarding my understanding of W.O.I.N., I operate on descriptions and conversations I had with the author of the system, with two different community devs who read the rules and designed a ruleset for it, and from what I could glean by very quickly skimming parts of it that I saw. I guarantee I missed many things about the system. There is no way I could develop any sort of system mastery or knowledge for 2K different games, much less do any of the many other tasks that I need to do for the business to remain operational.

If you have bugs, they should be reported and they will be loaded into our bug tracking system. We added a bunch of bugs in May and those are all currently marked as completed. You can see where we addressed these on this thread when they were reported and categorized. I've attached them to show the results. These are the kinds of things we are committed to doing. If we want more content to get produced, then this would require another community developer stepping up to do this.

HywelPhillips >> I laughed at that story about "your people". People will often say, "you are the CEO" and I'm like, "... and the janitor". It helps keep things in perspective.

taalo
November 23rd, 2021, 21:55
The history of WOiN...

WOiN stands for What's OLD is NEW. It was first published in a series of books in zine format. Version 1.0 was an all-in-one rule book. When the OGL was used to create NOW, EN World decided they would publish the ruleset and release WOiN as two separate books to complement this setting. OLD and NEW were split into their own books, but still heavily referenced each other so that there was a separate book for each setting. Versions 1.1 and 1.2 fixed problems and added more rules for different kinds of play. The Judge Dredd line was released after 1.2, and it's a modified version of NOW and NEW. The Dredd line has the most books released, and the next is the Solspace series (NEW). The more adamant fan base has always been for OLD, and from what I gathered it's because a large chunk of the player base comes from D&D 5e looking for something different because of EN World's position in TTRPG gaming forums.

Viper007
November 23rd, 2021, 23:30
Post deleted, thanks moving on!