Character Creation and FG. . .

[WolfStar76]

So, my friends and I have been playing on Fantasy Grounds for about a year now. I also happen to use the E-Tools for creating my character sheets (because I've no head for math, frankly).

To simplify character creation, avoid players padding their die rolls, and for a level playing field, instead of my players rolling their character sheets, I went with the standard Point Buy system for my players (DMG pg169).

The characters were made and have progressed to level 4. Now I have a player that's taking exception with the point buy system, because he feels demi-humans can exploit the system (because they can get an 18 for less than a human character).

I'm curious to see if anyone else feels this is a problem, and also to see how other DMs are handling character generation in FG? Do yo watch your players roll dice in FG for the ability generation? Use Ponit Buy? Assign a set of numbers to each player?

Just curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

[ShaneLeahy]

Sure races with a bonus to a stat can get an 18 for cheaper but it costs them more to get that 12 in the stat they take the penalty.

Right now I am doing a Point Buy system for the Age of Worms game I am running on FG. In fact, the stat increase that the standard rules say you get every 4 levels is also point buy. Here is a link to the houserule that I use. I forget who I orginally stole it from.

https://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=61885&ForumID=288192&TabID=537859&TopicID=1887078

[WolfStar76]

I just ran some numbers real quick, and assuming a Dwarf Fighter and a Human Fighter, both of whom want a "perfect" 18 con - and even point distribution everywhere else, I got the following stats:

Human Dwarf
STR 10 11
DEX 10 11
CON 18 18
INT 10 11
WIS 10 10
CHA 9 9

So, the bonuses work out the same, but it can be argued that the dwarf will have an easier time getting more bonuses by adding a single point to each skill at every 4th level (assuming, again, even distribution which isn't realistic, perhaps, but easily demonstrates the math).

I dunno, maybe I should take this to the D&D forums, but since it only came up because we're playing via FG, I thought I'd ask here first.

[richvalle]

Point buy. For the reasons you state. Plus I wanted the players to be able to create their characters 'off-line' instead of me trying to arange time with everyone to connect and watch them roll.

Sure, other races can get to 18 easier. And humans get that extra feat and extra skills every level. If someone is that worried about someone having an 18, they are probably the ones you would have problems with by letting players roll dice.

We had players (in our face to face game) literally roll and roll stats till they filled up a paper front and back with numbers. Really... at that point you might as well just pick what you want your stats to be.

The only other way I'd consider it is to set a limit of some kind. Total ability modifiers to be +4 or more. Then let them roll till they got a set over that limit.

rv

[WolfStar76]

richvalle

Yeah, I'm with you, but while this is a trustworthy player. . . he's also constantly on the lookout for eveyone else to be playing min/maxers or power characters. He has a very specific view of what D&D should be, and can make fairly interesting points when things fall outside his ideal.

In this case, we have a halfling ranger who can do **AMAZING** things with a shortbow - and his 18 Dex is, I think, the point of contention here.

I pointed out what you did (extra feat at 1st level, extra skill points), and his reply was "yes, but I'm talking about JUST the skill points". So, he's not worried about how it balances out overall - but is oddly worried about how easily someone can score an 18.

I'm gald for the replies tho, and the more ammo I can get (on either side of the fence) the better.

[richvalle]

I don't think you can talk about just one aspect of a character class/race vs another and get a balance. It does not work that way. You add something here and take something away there.

Compare that rogue to same level human rogue and look at their skills (a rogues bread and butter). The human one will have quite a few more skill points. Which means that human one will be more flexable and be able to have more skills maxed out. You might not think that matters... till you miss tha climb/tumble/bluff check by 1.

I've seen it aruged that the physical stats and mental stats should be rolled/point buy'ed seperatly. So you would have, say 14 points for str, dex, con and 14 for int, wis and cha. And if a character gets +2 dex, they get -2 to one of the other physical stats.

And doesn't that Rogue get -2 str? So that human rogue is going to have a better climb, jump skill (maybe) and be better at hand to hand combat.

Range characters are nice till someone gets in your face and ruins you day. :)

Luck,

rv

[WolfStar76]

Range characters are nice till someone gets in your face and ruins you day. :)


As he learned against some chokers recently. ^.^

Yes, the halfling loses 2 to strength, but my player's argument (he's a human paladin) is that because he's getting an 18 for "free" (from 16) he's saving 6 purchase points. And that can be used to restore the 2 STR that's being lost and still have 4 "more" points to spend.

I'm with you, I think he's making a silly argument, but I REALLY like your counter-argument of any ONE aspect is unbalanced - for example, I can compare his BAB to the Rangers. Or his aura, etc etc etc. It's good cannon fodder.

[richvalle]

You know one thing you can do (in the future) is take the points off at the end.

So, that rogue would not say 'I get -2 to str so that makes me an 8 so I add 2 to get back to 10'

But might say 'Well, I made my str a 14 but I get -2 so it ends up a 12'.

It might not matter, but it could end up making it more then 2 points.

Just a thought.

rv

[acmer]

In my DM:ing times I used to make it harder for non-human races in human cities. RPG is not all about fighting. Some of my players were half-giants, but they had a really hard time when it came to interacting with NPC:s. Some even considered them a threat. Halflings might be good thieves, but what if everyone knew that and didn't let those sneaky bastards in their house/shop.
There's a lot more in the character sheet than the numbers. It's up to DM how to use that information.

[Sigurd]

And in game logic I think its patently unfair that there are so many humans about. Us Dwarf characters demand that 15% of all humans be converted to dwarves allowing us better economies of scale, easier disquise checks, more customers and a vastly improved selection of spouses who will accept our flee bitten hides when we come back from adventuring minus an ear and a certain body part because of a stupid dragon who never should have been where he was attacked us in an unsportsmanlike way that never should have been allowed to happen and probably wouldnt have happened if the I'd been a tall human.

so there

Signed,

sour-grapes, ehm, sorry,

that's

No-grapes McKrakin Dwarf Farmer

ps. want to buy a mostly complete set of armor ?

[Sigurd]

I would take their complaints with a grain of sand.

Chiefly Humans get:
Free Feat,
23 more skillpoints over 20 levels
Diplomatic advantage of being dominant race (in Most Games)

D&D 3.5 has been better to humans than any other edition.

Humans have a huge survival advantage in their first 6 levels that dwarfs (no pun intended) any advantage non-humans get. The free feat allows them class selection freedoms & synergy freedoms that are really powerful. They get into prestige classes quicker & generally have simpler over all builds.

Your characters are just choosing a unique isolated window to complain about. In answer I would quote them a saying from my country:

"whaaa!"

The answer to your delema is simple. Tell them they should play non humans - bet they dont

[richvalle]

Judging from where those wounds of yours are... that armor might be a bit drafty.

[WolfStar76]

The answer to your delema is simple. Tell them they should play non humans - bet they dont

Yeah, he's telling me he isn't looking to get me to change systems, just that he thinks its broken as/is (he likes to complain sometime, but everyone in my group, myself included, is subject to that, we all love a good debate).

I pointed out that its balanced due to the advantages humans get, but he kept telling me it isn't the balance that bothers him, it's the fact that demi-humans can exploit this one specific aspect (getting 18's for "cheap").

I also pointed out that he, too, is welcome to play a demi-human, but he claims that's not the point either.

He's hard to understand, but I think the gist of the complaint is that he feels this is an easy system to "munchkin" or that a min/maxer can take advantage of.

To that *very specific* example, he might be right. . . but then I have to agree with RV and say that the same could be said about the specific advantages of being human. A human can exploit his extra skill points, or his extra feat. To say nothing of his "favored class" being wide-open for multi-classing.

Thank all for your input. It gives me something to work on. He posted asking in my personal forum if any of our other players see demi-humans as being able to exploit the system, and so far nobody has replied to him, so I think he'll see it's a moot point that only he is bothered by soon.

I just like the reinforcement of knowing I'm on good solid footing in thinking that it all balances out quite well.

[LordTomar]

let me see, he has a problem with point buy because its easier for demi-humans to get an 18 then for humans... Problem is its the same for rolling stats also... you still get the +2 to a stat no matter what system you use.

[LordTomar]

Ohh another thing... ever since I heard about point buy system, I have liked it better then rolling for stats. It puts everyone on a more even basis so you dont have really powerful chars next to a guy who had really bad luck while rolling (or didnt want to cheat on his stats)...

and In 3.5... an 18 in a stat is only a little bettern then having a 17 or 16... so its not really that much of a problem with demi humans who get the +2 to a stat.