Tuesdays update destroy my campaigns PC's

[bluedreamer]

Thanks again for ruining another Tue night game with an unannounced update that breaks things. Not only did it take me 4 hours to download the update (yes we don't all have gigabit)

It broke all the PC's characters. I used a few of the backup db.xml file and they are still broken - so not only did we lose our weekly game now everyone has to rebuild their PC's

And yet again - the only warning is the little red update button, no warning that it will take 4 hours and changed 1gb of data or that even maybe we should backup the PC and campaign before hand because the conversion failed.

Please start acting like a real software company and update responsibly.


Really annoyed! :mad:

[LordEntrails]

I can understand your frustration and that's a bummer that it impacted your game.

If you let us know what is broken with the PC's, and post the xml files, someone might be able to take a look and see if the files can be repaired.

One other thing I would suggest, I never run an update before my game starts. If/when I see the red update button I always wait until after my game is over to come back and run it. That way I always know my games won't be impacted :)

Let us know how we can help.

[bluedreamer]

I will send the XML when I get home, one thing it specifically broke was casting on PC's sheets.

Still massively annoyed that an update to campaign files is put out with ZERO warning - I'd have taken a backup if I knew you were going to destroy it!

Why isn't there a mailing list for DM's explaining whats in an update and warning them! And don't give me "its on the forums" I don't have time for pull information - push it out!

[kalaolani]

Looks like I've run into the same issue. The update seems to have destroyed my campaign's PCs. Script parsing errors galore and broken results when trying to do anything with a PC.

This is quite annoying indeed.

It seems that you should have a full roll back process with each upgrade so that we don't experience data loss. Obviously, this should include data backups too.

I agree with bluedreamer Is there anyway to get email notification about these updates.

I as well will try to post artifacts for support to review. It would also be a good idea to have an easy way to collect and package this type of information that you need to support your product. You know... like a button that creates a compressed file of all the stuff you want and load it up to your servers for review.

[Gwydion]

I will send the XML when I get home, one thing it specifically broke was casting on PC's sheets.

Still massively annoyed that an update to campaign files is put out with ZERO warning - I'd have taken a backup if I knew you were going to destroy it!

Why isn't there a mailing list for DM's explaining whats in an update and warning them! And don't give me "its on the forums" I don't have time for pull information - push it out!

One other thought and you may have already done this, but when I updated and then loaded one of my campaigns (without removing all the extensions I had loaded), I got a bunch of script errors and many of the actions coded on the character sheets with effects, heals, etc. were all blank. So, I backed out to the launch screen and removed every extension I had loaded. Once I did that and re-loaded the campaign, everything was fine and the character sheets were back to normal. Now this may not be the case for your instance and perhaps there is some other issue, but just wanted to throw this out there in the event it will help you avoid a bunch of re-work.

[bluedreamer]

One other thought and you may have already done this, but when I updated and then loaded one of my campaigns (without removing all the extensions I had loaded),

Great idea! Thanks. I'll try that first before I start rebuilding stuff

[Gwydion]

Looks like I've run into the same issue. The update seems to have destroyed my campaign's PCs. Script parsing errors galore and broken results when trying to do anything with a PC.

This is quite annoying indeed.

It seems that you should have a full roll back process with each upgrade so that we don't experience data loss. Obviously, this should include data backups too.

I agree with bluedreamer Is there anyway to get email notification about these updates.

I as well will try to post artifacts for support to review. It would also be a good idea to have an easy way to collect and package this type of information that you need to support your product. You know... like a button that creates a compressed file of all the stuff you want and load it up to your servers for review.

Your post crossed with mine kalaolani, but if you haven't already I would try to remove any extensions (if you have any loaded) and see if things are truly corrupted/lost or if everything looks back to normal once you have removed all extensions.

[Gwydion]

Great idea! Thanks. I'll try that first before I start rebuilding stuff

Cool. Keep us posted.....

[kalaolani]

Shoot... I always forget about extensions.

With all extensions removed...
1. 5E - Language Fonts - Wizards
2. All of the Desktop Decals from WotC book modules
3. Remove Effect Tag

Testing a single characters casting for ray of frost and fireball (atk and sav based rolls)... I see that the attribute Int has been replaced with base, but I do see
that it did keep the ability set to the correct attribute. So, data was lost, but the character works with "base" instead of "Int," since the the ability is still set to the correct attribute.

Adding back #2 proved that none of the decal extensions are the culprit. The same test above worked without script errors and showed the same data.

The remove effect extension seems to be causing all of the issues.

1. Script error on load of the campaign. "Script Error: [string "scripts/manager_effect_5E.lua"]:7: attempt to call field 'registerEffectVar' (a nil value)"
This makes sense given the error output.

2. Opening the actions tab of a character produces script errors too:
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/power_action.lua"]:202: attempt to call field 'getActionHealText' (a nil value)
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/power_action.lua"]:202: attempt to call field 'getActionHealText' (a nil value)
...
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/power_action_mini.lua"]:116: attempt to call field 'getGroupSaveDC' (a nil value)
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/power_action_mini.lua"]:159: attempt to call field 'getActionDamageText' (a nil value)

3. Using many spells causes script errors like these:
Script Error: [string "scripts/manager_string.lua"]:200: attempt to call method 'find' (a nil value)

Remove Effect Tag is the culprit, and I seem to only have data loss that is inconsequential.

[Moon Wizard]

Sorry to hear you are having issues. My guess is that they are tied to community extensions you are using, which need to be updated. As mentioned in this thread, try loading your campaign without any extensions.

There were no campaign file updates as part of this release, so I don't think that was part of the issue. This version has been in beta testing for months, and I announced to all the extension devs a couple weeks ago about launch date. I made an announcement in City Hall forum when I pushed it live. I'm not sure what other kind of notification you were looking for?

Also, as LordEntrails suggested, I would suggest not updating just prior to your session next time, especially if you use community extensions which usually need a few days to a week to catch up.

Regards,
JPG

[kalaolani]

The big problem with that is the same interface for downloading content is also used for FG updates. I purchased new content, and I had no choice unless I wanted to skip the new WotC content too, and I still have data loss according to my players.

These suggestions still remain and seem like basic infrastructure for this type of application. The first two seem very easy and would probably hit the 80%. The second two are just to make things easy but might be too expensive to develop and maintain.

Separate content downloads from updates.
Allow us to subscribe to release notifications.
Provide a complete rollback process.
Provide officially regression testing for popular community extensions (stable API)

[bluedreamer]

This version has been in beta testing for months, and I announced to all the extension devs a couple weeks ago about launch date. I made an announcement in City Hall forum when I pushed it live. I'm not sure what other kind of notification you were looking for?

I don't have time to keep going to a forum to see if there is maybe a post or not - or to filter through it. I want to subscribe to a mailing list that pushes the notification to me in BIG RED LETTERS - that it breaks things.

Really, I notified the extension developers a few weeks before - you think that is acceptable? How am I supposed to know that it might break something. Backwards compatibility! Don't break it. Or warn people - whats wrong with a BIG DIALOG warning me that this is updating db.xml and will break things and maybe I want to take a backup.

Basically you are making extensions unusable because they can't be trusted. Why isn't the main code disabling extensions known not to work with the update?

Seriously if you want to be a professional software company act like one - don't just have a little button that can screw things up if you press it - that goes away and does hidden things. I looked at the protocol you are using - it wouldn't be hard to produce a list of files that need to be updated (its in the XML you return) and the total file size of the download for the update.

And put you stuff on a Content Delivery Network - it's ridiculous for the DM to download 1Gb of data on 1.5Mb internet connection then have the 5 players have to upload the same data on the reverse crappy 756K side.

STILL ANNOYED!

[LordEntrails]

Part of the issue here is that; 1) Smiteworks allows community mods, 2) Smiteworks continues to improve FG and sometime (like this time) includes community developed functions (like Remove Effects).

Allowing community development and extensions means that those community extensions may need updating and the update schedule for those depends wholly on the availability and time of the volunteer community devs. UNLESS either you want Smiteworks to not allow community extensions OR never make improvement to the application.

We understand you are annoyed and frustrated. Let me make sure to take a moment to re-iterate that everyone is trying to help and we do "get it".

And there have been a couple of very useful suggestions made in this thread (I personally like the email notification of upcoming updates and this could be handled with the existing newsletter, and the separation of content and application updates).

But please do understand here, we all have to accept part of the responsibility. We have to know that every time we hit update their is a chance of things changing or breaking. We also should all understand that when we use community extensions we need to accept that it is putting more responsibility on ourselves to know what we are doing and getting before we hit the Update button. And that any issues that arise we need to disable and/or test those extensions as the primary suspects.

I really don't think we (the community) want to take away our ability to create community extensions or ask Smiteworks to never improve FG. Because those are the only ways to guarantee no issues like this will ever arise.

[ddavison]

We appreciate the feedback and empathize with your frustration. We do have a few features planned for future development that should help - such as subscribing to updates and being able to choose which updates you want to run immediately. That is a big overhaul, however, and we don't yet have an ETA or even know if it will be possible in the current version of FG or something reserved solely for FGU.

We will also do some more investigation to see if we can preemptively disable any extensions that might be problematic. Because custom extensions can override nearly any part of the ruleset, it's difficult to predict exactly what might break with a new update. Often enough, the community developers either have a new version ready or the need for an extension disappears entirely with a new ruleset update. The problem is that this isn't conveniently communicated back to users who may have installed those extensions. Perhaps there will be a way for us to check for a version compatibility flag in the extension and disable them based on that.

As for data and campaign backups, there should be backups made of the campaign within your campaigns folder automatically. If you disable your community extensions and try again, it should either work with your current db.xml or allow you to try restoring from one or more backup files.

[bluedreamer]

I've been developing software for 25 years - this is not hard to make this work - I've dealt with deprecated interfaces for years until the consumers of the API are updated.

1) You publish a public API for the extensions and you deprecate and promote new functions (at GenCon Smiteworks said they do not want to do this, which I disagree with)
2) You make extensions min/max versioned - until the developer updates them - just disable untested extension - community developers may not have time in 2 weeks to update their code

The last few updates have been for content in books which is fine, as mentioned, there is no idea what the update will do

Sure its game software and real-time nuclear power plant control software - but I'd still like it to work 99% for 99% of users.

Maybe Smiteworks can put the network/updater code up on Github and let the community fix it. It is well known it is old and not good quality

[bluedreamer]

Now that email is PERFECT - THANKS GUYS!!!! :D

[ddavison]

Good deal. Sorry for the timing not working out for your update situation.

[bluedreamer]

Cant fix things if you don't know they are broke :-) now I feel safer pressing the update button when it comes around again

[kalaolani]

Indeed. That's a great reminder for us and the players. :) Cheers Fantasy Grounds!

[Nickademus]

Please start acting like a real software company and update responsibly.

I'm not fond of the way this goes either, but to be fair, you aren't having problems with the software. You are having problems with the community-created-content which is offered 'as is'. If you are looking for the safety of a professional company, make sure to disable anything not directly from Smiteworks after an update, prior to entering a campaign. It's the user-made content that can cause you trouble.

[Nickademus]

We will also do some more investigation to see if we can preemptively disable any extensions that might be problematic. Because custom extensions can override nearly any part of the ruleset, it's difficult to predict exactly what might break with a new update. Often enough, the community developers either have a new version ready or the need for an extension disappears entirely with a new ruleset update. The problem is that this isn't conveniently communicated back to users who may have installed those extensions. Perhaps there will be a way for us to check for a version compatibility flag in the extension and disable them based on that.

I had this idea too, but then you have people coming to the forums saying that their FG no longer works the way it should. The communication is difficult when you have content coming from two different sources. There comes a point where a user has to at least evaluate whether user-made content is broken or not. The community devs don't send out email newletters like Smiteworks does. We do have stickied threads that get updated with which extensions are compatible with the new versions. People just need to look to see.

[Bidmaron]

Perhaps when the user selects upgrade, the system would:
1) Put up a dialog reminding you that if you have any issues there is a backup located at ....
2) Give you two choices, with a) being the default:
a) Disable all extensions that do not flag in their xml that they are compatible with the new version (via a new compatibility xml tag)
b) Work with the selected extensions with the warning that extensions could cause problems up to and including database corruption.

[bluedreamer]

I'm not fond of the way this goes either, but to be fair, you aren't having problems with the software. You are having problems with the community-created-content which is offered 'as is'. If you are looking for the safety of a professional company, make sure to disable anything not directly from Smiteworks after an update, prior to entering a campaign. It's the user-made content that can cause you trouble.

Not true - Everything below Windows is community created content - If it stops working it is Microsoft fault. Plus the MASSIVE design flaw that lets a 3rd party extension disable 1st party content - just shut it down, FG is in charge and nothing should break what I have even if has to remove a 3rd party feature. TOTAL DESIGN FLAW. Stop making excuses for FG. I've paid near on $700 for my FG software and add ons - am I wrong in that I demand it WORKS!

[bluedreamer]

I had this idea too, but then you have people coming to the forums saying that their FG no longer works the way it should. The communication is difficult when you have content coming from two different sources. There comes a point where a user has to at least evaluate whether user-made content is broken or not. The community devs don't send out email newletters like Smiteworks does. We do have stickied threads that get updated with which extensions are compatible with the new versions. People just need to look to see.

A FG store! Where extensions are evaluated and tested in an automated env - oh if only that existed - oh wait Jenkins!

Smiteworks wants to get bigger it need this - its not hard people!

[JohnD]

Not true - Everything below Windows is community created content - If it stops working it is Microsoft fault. Plus the MASSIVE design flaw that lets a 3rd party extension disable 1st party content - just shut it down, FG is in charge and nothing should break what I have even if has to remove a 3rd party feature. TOTAL DESIGN FLAW. Stop making excuses for FG. I've paid near on $700 for my FG software and add ons - am I wrong in that I demand it WORKS!

Problem solved - don't use any extensions, ever.

[bluedreamer]

Doug - how can I pm you. I can send you my CV I've got 20 years xp in network comm's real time data and stuff and I think I can fix/better the current network legacy you guys inherited. I have no problem signing a NDA to help and I will work for free for my fav software! Please let me at you crappy network code!

[Moon Wizard]

You can send an email to both of us at [email protected]. We both monitor that e-mail.

Regards,
JPG

[Full Bleed]

Perhaps there will be a way for us to check for a version compatibility flag in the extension and disable them based on that.
This is the solution.

But, after doing so, you'll have to put in an override because users won't be happy if they can't use an extension that a developer has abandoned. Then they'll override. Things will break. And they'll blame you again. ;)

I think you'll just have to make any override check boxes need to be done with *each* load so the user has to "take responsibility" each time and that it becomes clear to them that they're using an extension that isn't built on the current version of FG and it may lead to tears in the fabric of their reality.

[dulux-oz]

Actually, there is already functionality in the Extension code to limit Extensions to specific Rulesets and Ruleset versions - one reason why you'll sometimes see a big red "x" next to some of the DOEs after a Ruleset update - but most Community Devs don't use it (I believe). The problem is that its not mandatory to use this particular piece of code (its a XML tag that needs to be set for each Ruleset); and even when you do use it you either specify that this particular version of the Extension works ONLY with that particular Ruleset version, or you specify a range of Ruleset versions (which is what I currently do).

With Option 1 the Extension Dev needs to release a new version of the Extension every time FG is updated (even for a "Patch" update, let alone a "Minor" update); with Option 2 you run the risk of having an Extension that works fine for a number of updates but there is always the chance that an FG update will break things - in other words, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't - or really damned if you don't use the functionality at all. (Incidentally, that's one reason why I was asking about "Semantic Versioning" in a previous thread: to help with this sort of issue.)

So I don't know of a solution that's going to satisfy everyone 100% of the time - but using the Semantic Versioning Standard (that's everyone: Community Devs and SW Devs) along with the existing Extension-Ruleset Compatibility functionality might go a long way to helping solve at least some of the issues - IMNSHO :)

Cheers

[bluedreamer]

This is the solution.

But, after doing so, you'll have to put in an override because users won't be happy if they can't use an extension that a developer has abandoned. Then they'll override. Things will break. And they'll blame you again. ;)

I think you'll just have to make any override check boxes need to be done with *each* load so the user has to "take responsibility" each time and that it becomes clear to them that they're using an extension that isn't built on the current version of FG and it may lead to tears in the fabric of their reality.

Why are you even considering the corner case of abandoned extensions? This is not a question of if it will break - it is simple a fact of when it will break. Who CARES! The developer didn't, if they really did they would open source it, and if no one can be bothered to update it, again NO ONE CARES. Clean up the trash

[LordEntrails]

Abandoned extensions are common. And even more common than that are community devs who are not professional coders and don't know how to go about open sourcing something, don't know about semantic versioning, and quite simple are making some mod for their own use and go ahead and make it available to the community.

But, if you are going to put professional or commercial expectations on them and what they share, they are simple not going to share.

Now, there are also professional developers who are community devs too, like Dulux and others. They take the time to keep track of what's in beta and how it may impact their extensions. They might using the versioning tools available and they might not. They generally do an awesome job of updating their extensions in a timely manner when they do break. Something that is very generous of them to do with their free time.

I'm actually getting a little upset at the vehemence I am perceiving from some in this thread. Hopefully I am misconstruing what is being said, but I don't think I am. And I find it... well, I would ask that those upset about this issue take a step back and consider their own role and responsibilities.

Do I run a Windows update before I am going into a conference room to make some presentation to some executive? Nope. Do I update Java before I am about to demo software that depends on Java applets? Nope. Take responsibility for your own actions. Understand what you are using, behave accordingly.

Yes there are some good ideas in this thread, that I hope are given due consideration. And I have faith they will be. Their are things that can and should be done to limit the impact of unconsidered use of extensions and poor updating practices. But no matter what is done, nothing will ever prevent the creation of a better fool.

[kalaolani]

Abandoned extensions are common. And even more common than that are community devs who are not professional coders and don't know how to go about open sourcing something, don't know about semantic versioning, and quite simple are making some mod for their own use and go ahead and make it available to the community.

But, if you are going to put professional or commercial expectations on them and what they share, they are simple not going to share.

Now, there are also professional developers who are community devs too, like Dulux and others. They take the time to keep track of what's in beta and how it may impact their extensions. They might using the versioning tools available and they might not. They generally do an awesome job of updating their extensions in a timely manner when they do break. Something that is very generous of them to do with their free time.

I'm actually getting a little upset at the vehemence I am perceiving from some in this thread. Hopefully I am misconstruing what is being said, but I don't think I am. And I find it... well, I would ask that those upset about this issue take a step back and consider their own role and responsibilities.

Do I run a Windows update before I am going into a conference room to make some presentation to some executive? Nope. Do I update Java before I am about to demo software that depends on Java applets? Nope. Take responsibility for your own actions. Understand what you are using, behave accordingly.

Yes there are some good ideas in this thread, that I hope are given due consideration. And I have faith they will be. Their are things that can and should be done to limit the impact of unconsidered use of extensions and poor updating practices. But no matter what is done, nothing will ever prevent the creation of a better fool.

I agree with your comments and point, but there's one important fact missing. The primary issue that you did not address is the lack of update control between paid content, from WotC for example, and FG updates. So, one can be responsible but one will also be leaving that paid content behind. If the content was free, then my point wouldn't exist. Indeed... the most difficult software situation to manage is one where the software costs money and the "data" costs money.

I can be "responsible" if I have control. But, I think that an earlier post said it all: "don't use custom extensions." This seems extreme as it seems that the FG development team does rely on this extensions for new features. I gleaned this at the FG GenCon development event. Since there's such synergies, as a part of FG's business model or development practice, it seems that a plan to improve that would be welcomed and an improvement that is a win for everyone.

I think the vehemence you are perceiving is nothing more than a bunch of us who want FG to be wildly successful all while not turning into or selling to an evil corporation like Hasbro that considers the customer after the numbers. :)

We are with you, and we support you.

[Martin153]

Ok since the update none of my encounters work any more. I get script errors whenever I open anything in the campaign.

Its Hoard of the Dragon Queen. I cannot add an encounter to the map. All of the errors according to 'Conversion Checker; are Imageref errors. When I manually add the NPC to the Combat Checker it has no actions - Just a blank record?

Worked fine before the update.

In the game I get Script Error: [string "scripts/manager_string.lua"]:200: attempt to call method 'find' (a nil value). When I try and place an NPC from the Encounter to the Map/Combat Tracker.

Can I roll back the update so I can finish the module? I have tried creating a new 5e Campaign and loading the module into it. Same thing...

[bluedreamer]

I'm actually getting a little upset at the vehemence I am perceiving from some in this thread.


I am sorry - because FG is the most expensive piece of software I own and that I expect good service for having spent $1102.28 on it? I should just keep quiet right and not complain?

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[Moon Wizard]

@Martin153,

Do you have any folders within the FG data folder under the rulesets subfolder? If so, can you move those folders out of the rulesets folder, and try again?
(Folders within the rulesets subfolder will override the built-in packages, which is a tool for developers to use when building rulesets.)

Otherwise, can you send a copy of your campaign folder for creating your module zipped up to [email protected]? (via DropBox or other file share)

Thanks,
JPG

[Martin153]

My issue was the Remove effects EXT. Disabled that and it appears to work.

I agree that the comment
I'm actually getting a little upset at the vehemence I am perceiving from some in this thread. was not helpful. I like others have sent 100s of $ so a little more compassion for the user base would go along way.

[Nickademus]

I am compassionate and empathetic towards the user base. I've been there myself; I agree wholeheartedly with most of what was brought up by the OP. But I don't believe the expectations or the manor in which they are being presented by a few are conductive with the professional environment they are asking for.

I personally view a difference between a modding community and a software development community. I don't see the point of criticizing a company for what the community does. I agree the company doesn't fully support the modding community (lack of ruleset documentation, lack of change logs on update, lack of integration of UGC into program other than a checkbox in the launcher), but your problem was first with the UGC, not the content. And many of the thread where you get that content state (some in large red letters) to turn the content off after an update. Sure, the process should be made better, people don't read the instructions either.

[Myrdin Potter]

@Martin153 - If you read the messages from Doug and Moon Wizard, I see nothing but empathy, suggested ways to help, and promises that they agree there is an issue and want to keep improving it.

Please don't confuse posts from people like me (just another forum user and program user like you) from the official company representatives. I disable extensions before running a new update because that is what smiteworks have told us to do. I really wish they put a big splash page up whenever a ruleset or program change come up with the option to disable all extensions automatically. I do not understand why they don't do that as they lose at least a week every single major update and the forums fill up with angry posts about the software being broken and that has to be terrible for marketing.

I have not yet had a paid DLC break from a ruleset update.

@bluedreamer - That happened to two of my players once, they updated and ran into big issues on their macs. Was frustrating as hell for all of us. Your posts are polite compared to what I would have written that night.

That said, the code for all community extensions is fully available and not encrypted. The thread where it is made available usually has the person that wrote it front and center. In theory, anyone can fork and modify the code for personal use.

[LordEntrails]

I'm sorry something I wrote was not deemed helpful.

- I do not represent FG or SmiteWorks. Nor have I ever done any contract, paid, or unpaid work for them.
- I am a user, and have also spent a significant amount of money on this program.
- Of course everyone has a right to complain. And feedback is important.
- I am not really a community dev. Though I have done a single extension and have published a single FG module on the DMsGuild, I do not think that qualifies me as a community developer.

The intent of my posts is to help other users how to provide meaningful feedback by providing my opinion on the topic(s) of discussion and to discuss how the issues addressed in this thread may be mitigated.

@bluedreamer, I get that you have spent $1102.28 on FG. Yet you are complaining about problems with community extensions that you paid nothing for (or at least you did not list any contributions to those developers). That were provided to you free of charge. By people who got none of your $1102.28. It really seems like you do not understand that, or the distinction that implies. Maybe I'm wrong.

There have been some very useful suggestions made in this thread. I also believe that SW will carefully consider those suggestions that make business sense to do so. I also trust that they know their business and software and generally make very good decisions.

Hopefully this post clears up any misconceptions my limited writing skills have caused. Unless there is some further clarification of my statement needed, I will just observe this thread as I do not want to cause anyone strife. PM me if appropriate, just know that I won't be arguing with anyone.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread. I think that the appropriate points have been stated well from all involved, and we definitely monitor all customer support channels.

If you have other items to discuss, please start a new thread.
If you would like to have a more in-depth discussion with us on this topic, you can e-mail both Doug and I at [email protected].

Thanks,
JPG