Will FG be able to compete with Roll20 1 million useres with a steep learning curve [Archive]

viresanimi

September 20th, 2017, 09:29

To give the simple answer to the title:

"Yes. Because R20 is a godawful program whose only redeeming feature is that it is free.... ish". There you have it.

As for the rest. Those questions have been asked a million times before, with the same answers. We don't know yet. Basically because Smiteworks don't know yet. Personally I hope / think the Unity version will be available within the first 6 months of the year. Smiteworks have indicated that the hard boring stuff to make it all work is just about done. Now it should be all about functionality. Oh, and they recently let people know they needed someone to code the networking bit. That tells me that the process is getting close to done. With close still being months away.

Well. All that is just speculation of course. But plausible to me.

As for streamers I am of two minds: One. R20 is free and people don't realize that most things that are free are... lacking. Two. I think Smitework should be aggressive in their marketing to streamers and just hand out licences for free. Some might cry foul, but I don't care. More exposure is just plain better if you ask me.

And as a long time user of FG, I am pretty sure that a lot of new people came to FG when Smiteworks made the deal with Wizards of the Coast. They also hired a new guy. I think they're doing well, so I really think the future is bright for FG. And whatever they decide to do with regards to upgrading to the Unity version, I am pretty darn sure it will be an extreme fair deal. Because so far, that is how Smiteworks has operated.

Vires Animi

Zacchaeus

September 20th, 2017, 10:47

Roll20 don't have 1 million 'users'. They might have 1 million people who have an account but that doesn't equate with how many people actually use the software.

Teufelhunde87

September 20th, 2017, 10:50

Talyn

September 20th, 2017, 14:11

As was mentioned above, the recent price reduction (on the official WotC DLC) was a decision by WotC and applied across the board to Fantasy Grounds, Roll 20, and d20Pro.

All VTTs have their own learning curve. Roll 20? I have yet to build my PFS character there, because it's not intuitive and since I don't know anyone who uses Roll 20, I haven't bothered taking the time to Google it. But why should I have to Google the process for something that should be obvious and right in my face? Just now, I logged in. Still not obvious. So, I think what if I click [Join a Game], can I build a character there? Nope, that's as advertised: a list of games I can choose from to join. I notice under Tools there is a Character Vault. Hey, now we're talking! Nope! You have to subscribe for that, and it's to import existing characters, not create new ones. Ok, final choice is [Create Game] which sounds an awful like like being a GM. Sure enough, the title of the page is New Campaign. The first optional step is to choose a module I'll be running. The second optional step is to choose the character sheet template which, and I quote "provides the characters in your game with a pre-made set of fields, just like a paper character sheet in a face-to-face game." Characters (plural) in my game. Again, this sounds like GM stuff not "hey I just want to make a character and play" stuff. So I leave.

On Fantasy Grounds, a brand-new user sees [Manage Characters] and hey, guess what? She can make a character right there, no hassles. The learning curve at that point is the "in order to use this character, you must export it to an .xml file and send that to your GM."

To (possibly) flip this around, I just read a thread yesterday where someone had to explain to a Roll 20 user that over there, your token stores your character data so the token was your end point (at least that was my takeaway since I've never gotten that far in Roll 20 to have a token at all) whereas on FG, the data is stored on your character sheet (or NPC sheet for the GM) which also happens to have a token but no data is stored within the token. This is possibly the same learning curve either way, it's just that each platform does the same thing differently, which is what you'll experience on any platform switch. Photoshop to GIMP, for example -- you can do most, if not all, of the same stuff in either one, but each one does it differently or has those functions in different locations or with different names. "Same thing only different" as the kids say.

I've never used, or even heard commentary from users of d20Pro to give an example about that one.

Ken L

September 20th, 2017, 14:36

Roll20 isn't 'god awful'. It has a good UI and for the free/plus tiers it's a good bargain to get your feet wet.

I left R20 for FG since their Pro-crowd-source model was getting stupid profitable with not much going back into the platform as Riley effectively used R20 profits to launch another company even though there was a ton of stuff on their backlog in terms of bugs (not features!). Scummy business decisions are different from the platform's effectiveness.

I do have one thing to share about FG's UI though.. (no offense intended, but it is dated)
https://i.imgur.com/Elu5Z9E.jpg

Trenloe

September 20th, 2017, 15:43

There's a few misconceptions been made and presented in this thread.

The OP, and a few forum posts in other threads, have the misconception that Fantasy Grounds has a drop off in usage, is dying, etc., etc.. Nothing could be further from the truth.

2015 game stats: https://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3134-Which-Games-Were-Most-Played-On-FANTASY-GROUNDS-In-2015-(Hint-D-D!)#comments
2016 game stats: https://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3779-Who-s-Playing-What-On-Fantasy-Grounds-Final-Stats-For-2016!&#.WcJ31siGP8A

These measure games played, not user account created, and show a 68% increase comparing November 2015 with November 2016. And this is before official Pathfinder support arrived - which SmiteWorks were instrumental in getting VTT support for, and Roll20 don't even have yet.

Another thing SmiteWorks (the Fantasy Grounds company) were instrumental in is the reduction in price of a lot of key D&D 5E products. This was not done due to struggling sales/competition - this was SmiteWorks pushing Wizards to look at a different pricing model than charging the same price as the printed book - where most people already posses that book. It was done to reduce the cost of entry for people wanting to use digital products - and is an experiment with Wizards, who will hopefully see an increase in sales and keep the lower pricing model. D&D Beyond has adopted the lower pricing model, Roll20 has not and still charges the full printed product RRP for D&D5E material - for example, the Monster Manual, DMG and PHB are each $49.99 on Roll20, whereas Fantasy Grounds and D&D Beyond have them for $29.99 each.

And, as Doug mentions here, Fantasy Grounds doesn't seem to be losing out to the competition - in fact, when Roll20 added D&D 5E the Fantasy Grounds sales increased: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?37239-D-amp-D-Beyond&p=326870&viewfull=1#post326870

People have favourites, people have different requirements. Maybe the conception that FG is losing out, the UI is dated, etc. comes from it not meeting *your* requirements. There are plenty of people who like the FG presentation and use.

The design methodology is that Fantasy Grounds was made to simulate the desktop face-to-face gaming experience - sheets of maps/handouts, character sheets, NPC sheets, minis (tokens) on a map, etc., etc.. Some people like it, some people don't that's cool. But because you don't like the interface or application doesn't necessarily make it dated or dying or losing out to the competition - the last two of these are proven to the completely untrue, the first is purely a personal viewpoint.

I do have one thing to share about FG's UI though.. (no offense intended, but it is dated)
{Random photograph taken from the Internet that doesn't prove anything}
As has been mentioned above, there are plenty of people who need guidance on how to use Roll20, D20Pro, Maptools, computers in general, etc., etc.. Any application that is powerful and has deep down functionality is going to need some time to get used to.

Ken L

September 20th, 2017, 16:13

It's more an age/generational thing. The web connected youth are more inclined for quick use, easy to pick up interfaces and if you work on web design or mobile development (moi), the writing is on the wall where future revenues will come from. There's been all sorts of things thrown about Millennials from their attention span, to their work ethic or life outlook etc.. However, they do represent the future of what expectations will be like. Generally there is an expectation of less time commitment, more for less effort (where technology is involved <insert joke here>), and quick intuitive reference. They multi-task more so when you do have their attention, it needs to be concise and functional rather than multi-step.

That image is actually pretty relevant. Recently the US Military announced that they're incorporating Xbox 360 controllers aboard Virginia class submarines to control their new digital periscope. The reasoning given was that for JOs and new recruits, it was more intuitive, required less training (5 hours vs 5 minutes), and was something familiar to them compared to an air flight joystick and photonic controls that cost tens of thousands. Many sailors ended up figuring out the system themselves after 2 minutes of use as opposed to those exposed to the flight stick. There's a ton of jokes to be made here, but the intuitiveness of 'pick up and play' is a turn off for many in my network who are new, or interested in TTRPGs, and is a primary reason why the majority of the new and upcoming TTRPG streamers use web platforms. The age of web isn't going back in the bottle.

Xydonus

September 20th, 2017, 16:39

Would like to point out to those who say roll20 is 'rubbish' and the implication that FG should not worry about competing with it.

I've used roll20 before as a player in a friends game. I couldn't stand the program, the interface is horrendous and there is often at times quite a bit of browser lag using the program. All it is essentially is a character sheet with a map interface taking up most of the screen. It's nothing fancy and I've seen the GM side of it, it can't compare to FG's handy organization tools and the way they are laid out.

And even after all that's said, I have and still do recommend roll20 over FG at times. I'm a FG ultimate license owner, and when I can, I recommend FG to friends of mine who are looking to setup games long term. FG is easy to recommend to anyone who is looking to setup a game using any of the non-official rulesets. "Buy a sub, see how you like it and download the community ruleset for free."

But I've had people who are looking to do one-shots, looking to GM for the first time with perhaps dnd, and for those I point out roll20. It's free, ish... and it will do the job for what they are looking for, without breaking the bank. FG has multiple price-point doors you have to go through for the official rulesets; either subscription or buying it out right, you are generally going to be stuck with SRD content and that's not ideal for long-term games, or even short-term ones. So that's more money. And in these cases if a friend is serious about gming I'll tell them to get FG. If they are trying it out, not sure, have financial issues, I'll recommend roll20. And who knows... they may not leave roll20 after that.

So my point? Roll20, as bad as it is compared to FG, it still offers something to everyone and its main draw is its low financial investment compared to FG. FG is a great program, but it should (and I'd imagine does) treat roll20 as a serious competitor and anyone who thinks otherwise is mad.

ddavison

September 20th, 2017, 16:58

I seen you are upgrading, when will this occur? hope new features can allot for easier use and play-ability. Did the price drop coincide with a drop off in usage? I hope we get things running soon to a smooth level.

Will the unity version COST more for current owners? or free as promised years ago. I hope these questions can be answered. Allot of folk only see Roll20 being used in D&D streams. I hope for the best but fear the worst down the road.

Thanks for the interest and questions.

Fantasy Grounds and SmiteWorks is doing very well. Our company and our revenue continue to trend upwards and our popularity is growing steadily. We clearly have a different business model than Roll20 but we are happy with it. It allows us to continue to release new content, grow our users and increase our staff over time. We also coordinate well with our community developers, which now includes more than 60 paid developers. We think that we stack up very favorably against all other competition at this point. There are areas we would like to improve and we are continuing to work on improving those features and adding new features and content. We have a little over 80K users in total. Our forum membership is growing steadily and closing in on 60K members. We have an unknown number of free users.

One of these changes is Fantasy Grounds Unity, or FGU. We've been working on this behind the scenes for the last several years and we still have lots of work to do. While it's important to know where a company is headed, we think people should decide on Fantasy Grounds based on what it can do today. When FGU comes out, it will just make the decision to choose FG even better. Until we announce an ETA, you shouldn't make your decision based on what FGU will add.

Once FGU is available

There will be an upgrade fee for existing licenses.
We plan to make the upgrade fee a Pay-what-you-want style with a minimum level. We don't expect "Free" to be an option. We estimate $10 or $15 to be the base level upgrade fee you can choose. Upgrades have always been free in the past (just like 3.3.2 that released this week) but I don't believe we've ever said FGU would be free.
Suggested upgrade tiers would be based on usage and the age of your current license. We "may" give away free license upgrades to brand new buyers. Our suggested tiers for Ultimate licenses will likely be $15/$30/$45/$60 for each year of age of the license, respectively.
All add-ons/DLC will be compatible. You won't have to rebuy all the D&D stuff, Savage Worlds stuff, etc.
Older DLC will not immediately have new features but we will begin adding in features to DLC in order of popularity

If you want to see how we think FG stacks up against Roll20, please take a look at the VTT comparison chart I recently updated. You can find it on the homepage under the Features menu.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/content.php?18-VTT-Comparison-Chart-between-the-different-versions-of-Fantasy-Grounds-vs-Roll20

We offer a 30-day money back guarantee on all licenses, purchases and subscriptions. It's safe to try it out and see for yourself. If you have any questions once you get started, please post them to the forums and I think you'll find that the community is very helpful and welcoming.

HomeGAME

September 21st, 2017, 07:31

Thanks for the interest and questions.

Once FGU is available

There will be an upgrade fee for existing licenses.
We plan to make the upgrade fee a Pay-what-you-want style with a minimum level. We don't expect "Free" to be an option. We estimate $10 or $15 to be the base level upgrade fee you can choose. Upgrades have always been free in the past (just like 3.3.2 that released this week) but I don't believe we've ever said FGU would be free.
Suggested upgrade tiers would be based on usage and the age of your current license. We "may" give away free license upgrades to brand new buyers. Our suggested tiers for Ultimate licenses will likely be $15/$30/$45/$60 for each year of age of the license, respectively.
All add-ons/DLC will be compatible. You won't have to re-buy all the D&D stuff, Savage Worlds stuff, etc.
Older DLC will not immediately have new features but we will begin adding in features to DLC in order of popularity

If you want to see how we think FG stacks up against Roll20, please take a look at the VTT comparison chart I recently updated. You can find it on the homepage under the Features menu.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/content.php?18-VTT-Comparison-Chart-between-the-different-versions-of-Fantasy-Grounds-vs-Roll20

We offer a 30-day money back guarantee on all licenses, purchases and subscriptions. It's safe to try it out and see for yourself. If you have any questions once you get started, please post them to the forums and I think you'll find that the community is very helpful and welcoming.

Love to see some huge names using it visibly, i know its not a easy task. Maybe more marketing, Facebook adds surrounding FLGS's. maybe eliminate the reason the UPDATER is 50/50 detected as a virus (allot of players run in to this). Thank you for replying i want more FG in everyone hands still if possible remove some of the CLUNK. Thank you for making a very good product. I hope in a year, a huge overhaul has happened, maybe some how to make auto spell effects (i know that tricky but... its just code).

Thank you all for your time.

Full Bleed

September 21st, 2017, 07:46

maybe eliminate the reason the UPDATER is 50/50 detected as a virus (allot of players run in to this).
I must have the luckiest group on the planet! A group of 6 people that have never had the updater detect as a virus.

Talk about beating the odds! ;)

dulux-oz

September 21st, 2017, 08:04

I must have the luckiest group on the planet! A group of 6 people that have never had the updater detect as a virus.

Talk about beating the odds! ;)

Ditto - never had the Updater detected as a virus by myself nor any of my players. Weird!

Teufelhunde87

September 21st, 2017, 10:28

Ditto - never had the Updater detected as a virus by myself nor any of my players. Weird!

Me neither, and I have had a ton of different players run through my 5e Al games, and I'm in 2 weekly games. No issues.

Topdecker

September 21st, 2017, 16:19

I've been using FG for 18 months now as a GM with an ultimate license. My players like the interface and haven't had to spend a dime. New players, with someone to answer a few questions, are quickly able to play and enjoy themselves.

The only one with a technical burden and learning curve is the GM, and if you stay with canned adventures, even the GM can be shielded from some of the weightier topics.

Top

Daedalus

September 21st, 2017, 17:05

Roll20 don't have 1 million 'users'. They might have 1 million people who have an account but that doesn't equate with how many people actually use the software.

Exactly. I have an account and I have never used Roll20 because it is so un-intuitive as far as it's interface

LordEntrails

September 21st, 2017, 17:07

Exactly. I have an account and I have never used Roll20 because it is so un-intuitive as far as it's interface
Me too. But I also couldn't figure it out and after my research on the various VTT's, so no need to bother because it didn't have or do what I wanted (at the time of my evaluation in May 2015, much of which is still valid today).

Daedalus

September 21st, 2017, 17:17

Me too. But I also couldn't figure it out and after my research on the various VTT's, so no need to bother because it didn't have or do what I wanted (at the time of my evaluation in May 2015, much of which is still valid today).

Yep. And I have the Ultimate version of Fantasy Grounds so anyone who wants to play can, if they don't own Fantasy Grounds they can use the demo and play for free.

I played in a short game of Savage Worlds using Maptools and that was so horrible I couldn't imagine doing that again. Fantasy Grounds is my go to VTT

Daedalus

September 21st, 2017, 17:18

One other thing that will be great about FGU is that is will support other OS'S (I believe MAC and Linux, correct me if I am wrong) so it will open the program up
to people who couldn't use it before

Sammage

September 21st, 2017, 17:31

Here's my take as a non-millennial new user. I have a group of buddies scattered across the country who all decided it would be fun to try and do a D&D game like 'we used to' and so I started looking at how to make that happen.

I saw FG on Steam and the cost instantly made me look for other options. After all, we didn't even know if we were going to do this for very long. I found Roll20 and it wasn't too tough to figure out how to use. At least until I actually ran a game. Chargen was pretty painful. Didn't like it at all. FG is much smoother. Then, maybe it was just me, but DMing a game was like work, not like fun. Add to that a variety of technical issues with voice and video that led us to abandon the built in communication and I started to see the value in something like FG.

I almost think besides any updated technology FG needs an updated marketing effort so the value prop is more front and center for people like me who are researching products and at least initially cost conscious. I've since been throwing money at the company, so clearly the trick is to get people in the door. Roll20 does a better job of that based on my experience. The subscription model offered by FG is one way for sure...but I didn't notice that when I was looking at the Steam version (I didn't buy from Steam actually...bought direct because I figured more of my money would go to the 'right' people).

That all said, I haven't brought the group over from Roll20 yet. May be doing that soon.

Bonkon

September 21st, 2017, 19:59

I must have the luckiest group on the planet! A group of 6 people that have never had the updater detect as a virus.

Talk about beating the odds! ;)

None of our group of 7 have ever had this problem either.

ColinBuckler

September 21st, 2017, 20:30

I am sure there are some "high profile" groups out there that stream their weekly games. It wouldnt be such a bad thing if FG spun a few free ultimate licenses to their DM's to try and stream their games using FG and in return free advertisement for SmiteWorks/FG. Critical Role springs to mind and some of their gaming groups with a large number of players.

JohnD

September 21st, 2017, 20:30

None of our group of 7 have ever had this problem either.

It's one of the misinformation claims the clever Roll20 boosters like to put out there.

Bidmaron

September 21st, 2017, 20:36

And you cannot refute it or they will likely kick you off their boards. There is no surer a sign of an inferior product as one where they will not even permit discussion of the alternatives.

NotRussellCrowe

September 21st, 2017, 20:43

And you cannot refute it or they will likely kick you off their boards. There is no surer a sign of an inferior product as one where they will not even permit discussion of the alternatives.

I hate that attitude. I realize it's legal and they can do what they want on their website, but I still hate it. When people come to the FG boards and post a complaint or problem then the community tries to help them through it. At no time have I ever seen a discussion about what a competitor does better shut down. The only thread I've ever seen closed was when personal attacks were being made, and only once, but never when discussing FG and competitors.

dracklor

September 21st, 2017, 20:47

Roll20 don't have 1 million 'users'. They might have 1 million people who have an account but that doesn't equate with how many people actually use the software.

Heck I have an account there, tried it once and immediately bought an FG Ultimate license rather than try to use it to GM again.

rhammer2

September 21st, 2017, 21:02

Probably safe to say we all have accounts on Roll20 from when we were researching what VTT to use.

- Robert

Black Hammer

September 21st, 2017, 21:29

LordEntrails

September 21st, 2017, 23:13

I'd use nothing but FG if it had a more varied community, but I can't get online games going on it reliably. With roll20, I can run what I want when I want, whereas with FG, I've had a hard time keeping a single campaign going.
Interesting. Care to extrapolate? Do you think it is ruleset specific? Are you running one-shots or an open-table approach? Are you running games the same day that you start recruiting for them?

Tabulazero

September 22nd, 2017, 13:53

I come from Roll20 where I GM Lost Mine of Phandelver as a Pro-License holder. So yes... you could say I am heavily involved in Roll20.

Frankly, the next campaign I am going to run will be on Fantasy Grounds even if it is still in 3.2 version.

Fantasy Ground is so much more ergonomic and user friendly than Roll20. While you may not have the breadth of the huge number of game systems running in Roll20, you have far more depth. What Fantasy Ground does, it does it better than Roll20 in my very personal experience. For 5e, it is simply a no brainer.

What it lack is dynamic lighting but even without it, it is still an easier interface to navigate than Roll20.

The Unity engine when it will come out will build on that.

Will it be able to compete ? Yes because it is already is and is a better product in my very personal opinion.

Now if Wizard of the Coast/Hasbro had any brain, they should simply buy SmiteWorks once someone/somewhere in the higher echelons realizes that, as their player base is getting older and has less free time to play (its called "having kids"), it tend to gravitate toward virtual tabletops.

ArcebU

September 22nd, 2017, 20:57

From my experience most folks who use R20 do so out of familiarity or just having all their stuff on R20.

Another thing is that FG doesn't really work for some people out of the box. As in their is a level of knowledge about navigating your router and firewall as well as general upkeep before you can enjoy FG.

Another hurdle is the pricing. When people look at the ultimate edition they think that it comes with everything only to later realize the modules are separate. Its largely unclear that the bulk of the price point is not needed at all especially for Steam users... I can't begin to count how many times I've had to disambiguate the demo version versus standard versus ultimate.

Ultimate is if you plan to DM.

Not knocking R20 though, I'm glad for all the options out there, yet FG and R20 on what they offer and the ease of use are miles apart. One thing R20 does well though is in game music.

dracklor

September 22nd, 2017, 21:35

I'm not sure, I mean I had more trouble with Roll 20 than FG. Went looking for a VTT when it got to be too much trouble getting my standard group together to play (people moving due to work, or the like).

Though part of that may be because I am always the GM for my group, so I just shelled out for the Ultimate (several of my players were being cheapskates and refused to get normal licenses when we started).

I never thought I wouldn't have to get the books, though I will admit that figuring out the fan made modules to get things like Shadowrun, Earthdawn, or Star Wars working was enough of a pain that I decided to just run 5E and later Pathfinder (the fan extensions are awesome, I am just too lazy to go to the trouble of making new content when there is so much premade stuff on the store for other systems).

Myrdin Potter

September 23rd, 2017, 08:00

My virus protection has flagged the updater several times and quarantined it. Moon Wizard has posted on it just about every update, as the updater updates itself and that behavior is flagged. It is easy to solve if it does happen.

I look at the depth of the DLC store, and I can tell which of the two main VTT has the most support, and that is Fantasy Grounds. The user interface is a old enough that it is pre "windows standards", but Roll20 looks like a browser / standard and then breaks down and is actually harder to run a game with.

Roll20 is also not really free and with them charging almost twice the price for DLC and still not having all the WoTC materials, you really end up spending more for less there.

Valatar

September 26th, 2017, 04:50

I've played both, my assessment is that FG has a steeper initial wall to climb due to its UI, but once that hurdle is crossed it's easier to use. Roll20 looks friendlier on the face of things, but once you get into it you hit one layer of clunky after another. I'm also allergic to subscription models, and the fact that I'd have to pay eternally for access to Roll20's features immediately turned me off from it.

That said, it's always going to have a large chunk of market share in the free users. There are plenty of GMs out there who flat out will never spend a dime on a VTT, and those people will never be FG customers; they'd rather work around the limitations of Roll20's non-subscriber tier than pay for something better.

Caelen

September 26th, 2017, 07:48

My group is in the process of switching from Roll20 to FG. We started on Roll20 because it had free options, and eventually I upgraded to Roll20's Pro level to give my group the extra features. I've been at the Pro level since early 2014, so about 3 and a half years. Now we're much more involved with just 5th edition D&D, and Roll20 is sorely lacking in that department. It doesn't even have the PHB content available yet. That one lacking feature, and the price point they put all of their 5e content at (about double FG's), are the main reasons we're making the switch. All that said, Roll20 does some fantastic things that FG doesn't. Custom macros and roll templates are some of them, which my group used heavily. We also used the very detailed dice rolling engine to pull off some impressive single-click nested query multi dice rolls. For example: a single smite evil button that asks you what level of spell slot you're using, if the target is an undead or fiend, and if the attack is a critical or not. It then calculated and output the correct dice roll into the chat. Maybe this is possible in FG, and I'm still new and haven't discovered how to do this, but with Roll20 it was always easy to see where I could build these sorts of creations. I'm sure I'll get that involved with FG now as well, figuring out how to write my own extensions or modules, but Roll20 really has a much shallower learning curve.

I plan to continue to support Roll20, and I'll probably go back to it if my group wants to try something that FG doesn't support. I'm with FG for the long haul too, now that I've gone all in for the Ultimate license and 5e bundle. FG really has the depth and breadth of 5e content that I want. Both platforms are good. They're just different. That's a good thing.

Luthbel

September 26th, 2017, 08:52

The learning curve thing is totally relative. I´ve been using FG (GMing and playing) for about 3 years now. I understand it quite well, and me or my players never had too much trouble with the classic or new features.
In the other hand, I´ve been playing Roll20 for about the same amount of time, and I still feel I don´t fully understand the interface and options.

damned

September 26th, 2017, 09:38

The biggest challenges to FG in comparison to Roll20 from where Im sitting are:

1. Ease of connectivity - whilst many people have no issues connecting with FG many do and I suspect a very large number of those leave after X mins of unsuccessful attempts
2. Roll20 has better exposure due to its greater numbers of users which is largely due to...
3. Roll20s free option
4. The perception that FG is for D&D and Pathfinder only

Firewall issues can be worked out in most cases but I really look forward to (for SmiteWorks sake) when they have a brokered or server based connection option
FG continues to get better exposure but is still shaded by the Roll20 exposure
I personally am happy to pay a fair price for software and IP. Competing on price when one player is already at $0 doesnt sound work well in a niche industry
I play lots of different game systems on MoreCore :ninja:

Full Bleed

September 26th, 2017, 09:42

Custom macros and roll templates are some of them, which my group used heavily.
I'm not all that familiar with Roll20's macro system... but I understand the appeal (as I am very familiar with Maptool's macro system). It is an area (i.e. a "non-scripting", high-level macro option) that FG could certainly benefit from. Though, to be honest, I've never heard the developers indicate that such a thing will ever be available. They seem fairly married to the LUA scripting/extension system.

We also used the very detailed dice rolling engine to pull off some impressive single-click nested query multi dice rolls. For example: a single smite evil button that asks you what level of spell slot you're using, if the target is an undead or fiend, and if the attack is a critical or not. It then calculated and output the correct dice roll into the chat. Maybe this is possible in FG, and I'm still new and haven't discovered how to do this, but with Roll20 it was always easy to see where I could build these sorts of creations. I'm sure I'll get that involved with FG now as well, figuring out how to write my own extensions or modules, but Roll20 really has a much shallower learning curve.
I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised with how FG can handle such a thing. In the 5e game I play in we have a paladin who, as you might imagine, smites quite regularly. You can build various types of smites (by spell slot level)... and FG can automatically calculate/roll the critical damage based on your attack roll... and account for whether it's undead/fiend or susceptible to radiant damage, etc. Be sure to check out the "5e effects" threads to see how you can build these types of things. I suppose one could argue that their "effects" system and options are kind of a pseudo macro language (insofar as building powers/weapons/items/spell strings to tap into the more powerful built in functionality.)

I plan to continue to support Roll20, and I'll probably go back to it if my group wants to try something that FG doesn't support. I'm with FG for the long haul too, now that I've gone all in for the Ultimate license and 5e bundle. FG really has the depth and breadth of 5e content that I want. Both platforms are good. They're just different. That's a good thing.
If 5e is your game and you're all-in on their core 5e content and are willing to do a little leg work to get up to speed... I think you're going to safely replace Roll20 as your goto.

You *are* going to have to wait for FGUnity to get lighting, line-of-sight, and native 64 bit support... but it really is looking like it will deliver in that regard.

rob2e

September 26th, 2017, 10:06

Thanks for the interest and questions.

Fantasy Grounds and SmiteWorks is doing very well. Our company and our revenue continue to trend upwards and our popularity is growing steadily. We clearly have a different business model than Roll20 but we are happy with it. It allows us to continue to release new content, grow our users and increase our staff over time. We also coordinate well with our community developers, which now includes more than 60 paid developers. We think that we stack up very favorably against all other competition at this point. There are areas we would like to improve and we are continuing to work on improving those features and adding new features and content. We have a little over 80K users in total. Our forum membership is growing steadily and closing in on 60K members. We have an unknown number of free users.

One of these changes is Fantasy Grounds Unity, or FGU. We've been working on this behind the scenes for the last several years and we still have lots of work to do. While it's important to know where a company is headed, we think people should decide on Fantasy Grounds based on what it can do today. When FGU comes out, it will just make the decision to choose FG even better. Until we announce an ETA, you shouldn't make your decision based on what FGU will add.

Once FGU is available

There will be an upgrade fee for existing licenses.
We plan to make the upgrade fee a Pay-what-you-want style with a minimum level. We don't expect "Free" to be an option. We estimate $10 or $15 to be the base level upgrade fee you can choose. Upgrades have always been free in the past (just like 3.3.2 that released this week) but I don't believe we've ever said FGU would be free.
Suggested upgrade tiers would be based on usage and the age of your current license. We "may" give away free license upgrades to brand new buyers. Our suggested tiers for Ultimate licenses will likely be $15/$30/$45/$60 for each year of age of the license, respectively.
All add-ons/DLC will be compatible. You won't have to rebuy all the D&D stuff, Savage Worlds stuff, etc.
Older DLC will not immediately have new features but we will begin adding in features to DLC in order of popularity

If you want to see how we think FG stacks up against Roll20, please take a look at the VTT comparison chart I recently updated. You can find it on the homepage under the Features menu.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/content.php?18-VTT-Comparison-Chart-between-the-different-versions-of-Fantasy-Grounds-vs-Roll20

We offer a 30-day money back guarantee on all licenses, purchases and subscriptions. It's safe to try it out and see for yourself. If you have any questions once you get started, please post them to the forums and I think you'll find that the community is very helpful and welcoming.

Doug, should mark Dynamic line of sight as "In development"?

JohnD

September 26th, 2017, 15:01

With no previous VTT experience I was building my own adventure and DMing a game after observing one game session (in a different ruleset none the less...), playing in one game session (again, in a different ruleset) and spending about 90 minutes working through a few instructional videos where FG was on one screen and the video on the other; stopping and repeating what I just watched in the video in FG.

I've DMed for a lot of "never played before, never used FG before" players in the last 5 years. By the end of the first 3 hour session the new user knows about 80% of what they need to be fully functional as a player... this increases to 90%+ by session 3 or 4, depending on the DM's acuity with the software and the rest of the players' willingness to be helpful.

Personally I think the learning curve is overblown, especially when you already know the ruleset.

Full Bleed

September 26th, 2017, 23:39

With no previous VTT experience...

Personally I think the learning curve is overblown, especially when you already know the ruleset.
Therein lies the rub.

The "learning curve" for many things when you're coming at them with a blank slate can be shallower when you don't have preconceived notions about how things "should" be done getting in the way.

When you do have other VTT experience I think you are more apt to have bigger issues with the ways that FG does some things. For you, much of it may just "make sense." But to others, it may comparatively, seem "wonky", "unintuitive", "overly-complex", or just plain "inferior" to what their previous understanding and experiences are. Inevitably, time behind the wheel will change those initial perceptions as they adjust to new ways of doing things... but, even so, the chips may not always fall favorably to FG's side of the table when you've gotten used to doing things another way.

LordEntrails

September 27th, 2017, 00:34

Therein lies the rub.

The "learning curve" for many things when you're coming at them with a blank slate can be shallower when you don't have preconceived notions about how things "should" be done getting in the way.

When you do have other VTT experience I think you are more apt to have bigger issues with the ways that FG does some things. For you, much of it may just "make sense." But to others, it may comparatively, seem "wonky", "unintuitive", "overly-complex", or just plain "inferior" to what their previous understanding and experiences are. Inevitably, time behind the wheel will change those initial perceptions as they adjust to new ways of doing things... but, even so, the chips may not always fall favorably to FG's side of the table when you've gotten used to doing things another way.
Well said. One of the things I've been doing as part of my career for the last ~20 years is teaching technical software. Preconceived notions and attitudes are the best or worst friend of someone trying to learn something new. Ideas are something you shouldn't be married to *g*

Myrdin Potter

September 27th, 2017, 01:21

Caelen - you can build the different levels of smite in Fantasy Grounds. It is just a matter of adding additional lines to the spell to be used if higher spell levels are used and choosing the right one.

I think of Fantasy Grounds as being a set of macros and the effects set the variables and call the right macro. Extensions add macros and graphics elements.

It isn't exact, but it helps people used to writing macros in other VTT. In this case, FG has the macros written for you.

OldJarhead

September 27th, 2017, 22:38

Roll20 don't have 1 million 'users'. They might have 1 million people who have an account but that doesn't equate with how many people actually use the software.

I used Roll20 until I found out about FG. Never going back but I'm sure that I am still being counted as a user.

JohnD

September 27th, 2017, 23:24

Therein lies the rub.

The "learning curve" for many things when you're coming at them with a blank slate can be shallower when you don't have preconceived notions about how things "should" be done getting in the way.

When you do have other VTT experience I think you are more apt to have bigger issues with the ways that FG does some things. For you, much of it may just "make sense." But to others, it may comparatively, seem "wonky", "unintuitive", "overly-complex", or just plain "inferior" to what their previous understanding and experiences are. Inevitably, time behind the wheel will change those initial perceptions as they adjust to new ways of doing things... but, even so, the chips may not always fall favorably to FG's side of the table when you've gotten used to doing things another way.

Each of us is responsible for our willingness to move past our preconceived notions. What the topic in question is doesn't matter if there isn't a willingness to be exposed to new ideas.

LindseyFan

September 28th, 2017, 01:20

yeknom

September 28th, 2017, 04:16

I am sure that Fantasy Grounds can compete. I do find myself keeping my subscription to Roll20 alive and going, even if I do not use, because I sometimes get a wild hair and think I will go to Roll20 and make a BECMI game that uses dynamic lighting or some other ruleset I enjoy that isn't available here on FG. I don't ever follow through with the idea because I don't really like the interface and I figure that if I give it enough time and I put in the effort I will eventually be able to sort a ruleset or two on FG myself.

So I ultimately end up figuring why bother to go to another VTT when Fantasy Grounds does nearly everything I want it to do?