Thanks for all the fish

[Seneschul]

I discontinued my ultimate license today after trying to learn to use fantasy grounds for the last 7 months.

Summary:
Awesome, helpful community can't overcome FG's lack of up-to-date 5e/4e info(or bad advertising - can't tell which), lack of an editor, lack of concise easy to use tutorials.

Long story:
The community is great, has made amazing tools, and has made a few decent tutorials.

I have been sorely disappointed at the advertising for FG, vs the reality thereof.

I was told FG was fully 4e licensed. But you can't get the data for 4e from FG - you have to rely on user-generated apps and a weird, hard to find license purchased from WOTC.

My group switched to 5e. Many of us where excited. One of my guys went out and bought the books and started designing characters.
When we sat down to put the characters together in FG however, we found out irritating things.
Clerics made in FG only have access to 1 single domain (for SRD and Basic) - whereas the 5e PHB includes 7 domains.

Same is true for monk and many other scenarios.

Consistently, we found FG to be inconsistent as compared to the actual physical books..

The response we received was basically "get module help from other users and/or edit/make modules yourself"
Unfortunately, making anything for FG is not a simple task. I'd expect to have some sort of simple editing, but haven't found any way to do that.
And I've now get 3 different entrys for cleric - an SRD, a Basic, and an Unearthed Arcana. The divide across all this makes life that little bit more difficult.

Lastly, Cleric is not the only one with this problem - all classes suffer this issue, to varying degrees.
Rogue, Monk, Warlock are all missing stuff from the PHB. And that list is by no means exhaustive.

And that's not even getting on the issue with the interface's horrendous lag and CPU/GPU use.

Another issue is the choice of "pretty" over "functional" Windows has had tiling of programs down since the 3.1 days in the 80s. Fantasy Grounds consistently just opens whatever I clicked on directly on top of whatever I was just reading, necessitating tons of extra mouse movement to get any work done whatsoever.

What I expected from having an Ultimate License was all the data, just collated for me. No digging through multiple class entrys trying to find the right domain, the right pact, the right monkish way.
I expected a non-laggy interface.
I expected some step-by-step automation for character creation.
I expected the ability to throw together 3 or 4 sentences as an artifact something or other and link it to my players, give it to one of them.

I have been sore disappointed.
But I remain hopeful. I expect to come back and visit every couple months and maybe get lucky and see the devs fix these sore points.

My apologies for the rant; please think of this as an open letter to the devs.

Thanks for the fish,
Seneschul

[Nickademus]

My group switched to 5e. Many of us where excited. One of my guys went out and bought the books and started designing characters.
When we sat down to put the characters together in FG however, we found out irritating things.
Clerics made in FG only have access to 1 single domain (for SRD and Basic) - whereas the 5e PHB includes 7 domains.

Same is true for monk and many other scenarios.

Consistently, we found FG to be inconsistent as compared to the actual physical books..

Sorry things didn't work out for you. But just for the record, the free content is legally only allowed to include what is in the D&D 5e SRD. Smiteworks would get sued if they put all the domains in the free cleric. For all the PHB content, you have to buy the module that WotC approved to include all the PHB content.

[Zacchaeus]

As Nickademus says FG provides the rulesets but if you want the PHB it is an additional purchase.

When you come back make sure that you don't struggle on your own; ask questions on the forums and don't wait 7 months before your first post. As you have noted the community here is super helpful and you could have gotten a lot more help by asking so that we could have pointed you in the right direction to find the information that you needed.

[Trenloe]

Sorry you're leaving Seneschul but it seems your biggest complaint is false advertising. I'd be interested if you could provide examples of this false advertising.

You mention: "I was told FG was fully 4e licensed." I'm guessing this was from someone who isn't directly affiliated with FantasyGrounds? The home page of the FG website shows that 4E data libraries are not included with any of the FG license.

Similarly, I don't know where you got the impression the you got all of the PHB data with your ultimate license. This is what the front page states:


Data Libraries
3.5E, 5E SRD 5, D&D Basic Rules, FATECore, PFRPG

These are terms used by Wizards of the Coast for their freely provided data subsets of the main 5E rules:

SRD: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd
Basic rules: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules

There is the odd occasion that a user comes to the forums assuming that their Ultimate license comes with every single piece of data, so it is an occasional misconception. Something that has been addressed on the forums many times and something that we could have helped with directly if the question was raised here on the forums by you when you first had issues.

This is not false advertising - nowhere do I see any official Fantasy Grounds literature saying that you get all of the PHB data with a Fantasy Grounds license. You have to purchased the PHB: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=WOTC5EPHBDELUXE This the cost of which is set by Wizards of the Coast, not Fantasy Grounds.


Consistently, we found FG to be inconsistent as compared to the actual physical books..

The response we received was basically "get module help from other users and/or edit/make modules yourself"
I'm expecting the reason for this response was that you didn't want to purchase the PHB from the store? If this is the case, then yes, you would have to manually make your own data module.

Most of your other expectations could have been helped with if you came to the forums directly. Yes, there are issues on some PCs with graphics lag - but these can usually be fixed by tuning graphics card setup, for example - and we'd have been happy to help you with that.


I have been sore disappointed.
It seems to me that the base reasons for your disappointment comes from not reading the official Fantasy Grounds website fully, and/or not asking questions on the forums. There has been no false advertising that I can see. If you feel this is not the case, please provide us with linked/screenshot examples of this.


But I remain hopeful. I expect to come back and visit every couple months and maybe get lucky and see the devs fix these sore points.
If your main issue appears to be not getting full D&D 5E material with your FG license, then I wouldn't hold my breath as this is a commercial decision made by Wizards of the Coast. It is very, very, very unlikely that Wizards would ever provide this for free.

One thing to note. The prices of 5E material set by WotC is due to come down in two days: https://mailchi.mp/fantasygrounds/massive-price-drop-coming-soon-on-dungeons-dragons-modules-for-fantasy-grounds When you will be able to get the full PHB data (Complete Core Class Pack) for $29.99 - $20 cheaper than it is currently.

[vodokar]

Ultimately another casualty of the expectations of the term Ultimate. While the expectations could have and should have been tempered by a little application of common sense and asking questions, it's not too difficult to understand where thoughts like this are coming from.

[Nylanfs]

We're sorry to see you go Seneschul, you should also note that WotC is allowing the prices of the core books to be lowered after Aug 15th.

Yes I agree, every single one of these people that leave or are upset that they haven't gotten more than they think it's because of the wording of the name of the license. The title Ultimate made perfect sense before there was so many licenses with third parties. But maybe it is time to revisit the title of the license.

Or perhaps maybe have a new tier of licenses?
Penultimate D&D License = Ultimate License with all three books included in the price
Then you could have one for each of the licenses systems.

Of course then you'd have people complaining about not getting adventures, etc.

[ddavison]

There is no option for us to include a subscription or license that includes "everything" from any specific companies, much less D&D or Pathfinder.

The biggest problem is that some new groups get so hung up on being able to build characters with drag and drop for any sort of character that they can imagine that they completely miss the core functionality of the software. Try playing the game like you do around the table and add in more and more automation as you grow in experience with the interface. If you do that, you'll end up with an experience of progressively more fun games instead of spending time trying to understand parsing or doing a bunch of data entry and then thinking that you never got finished.

[vodokar]

I totally agree with that, Doug. But, then, I've been with FG long before we had any of that automation. Personally, I rarely use it that much anyway.

While it isn't really fair that people expect all those things at one low price (relatively speaking) from the Ultimate License, people often do come in here having that in mind when they see the word Ultimate, thinking that it does include everything.

You couldn't include everything even if you had permission to, as the upsells are what makes the business profitable, but, nonetheless, people do get that impression and then get their expectations bashed by the reality, which should have been common horse sense, as we say in Missouri, but doesn't change the fact that their expectations were set too high based on the wording. If it were an isolated case, it would be one thing, but it happens a lot and likely more than we know, since sometimes people just disappear without saying anything.

I think it might be prudent to consider changing the name from Ultimate to something else, like, Maximum Connectivity Options edition or Gaming Group edition or something like that, which is a little more descriptive that it pertains to the type of connections that can be made between DM and players and has nothing to do with getting extra content... and then make it very clear that the D&D content are extra purchases.

But, it's not my company. Take the thoughts for what you payed for them. :)

[Trenloe]

I think it might be prudent to consider changing the name from Ultimate to something else, like, Maximum Connectivity Options edition or Gaming Group edition or something like that, which is a little more descriptive that it pertains to the type of connections that can be made between DM and players and has nothing to do with getting extra content... and then make it very clear that the D&D content are extra purchases.
I'm sure that Smiteworks would be open to a name change - if it was completely unambiguous and helped alleviate any expectation issues. A couple of years ago they changed "Full" to "Standard". The problem is that no one has come up with a name that meets this criteria. A while back I asked the question in a thread - can anyone come up with a short replacement name for Ultimate that doesn't cause confusion? And no one could and basically all agreed "Yeah, it's really hard..." Unfortunately I can't find that thread with a quick search.

With your two examples, these can also cause further issues:
- Maximum Connectivity Options - Potential customer: "Oh great! I can run FG over my phone, from a hotel, from Starbucks/McDonalds without having to worry about any connectivity issues, port forwarding, etc.." Knowledgeable FG community member: "Errr... no, sorry."
- Gaming Group edition - Potential customer: "Oh Great! Our gaming group can buy one license and we can rotate GMs around within our gaming group." Knowledgeable FG community member: "Errr... no, sorry."

Keep 'em coming. Maybe we can somehow brainstorm a cool name that isn't confusing, encapsulates what the Ultimate provides and that SmiteWorks would be willing to take on board...

[TheMookNet]

Just one fairly-new user's perspective, but imo the FG subscription definitions seem very clear. When I purchased an Ultimate License, it was an Ultimate License for Fantasy Grounds, not for D&D. Fantasy Grounds is not D&D, it's a system-neutral platform for playing D&D... and GURPS, and Pathfinder, and Fate, and whatever your gaming system of choice happens to be. I don't follow the logic of why buying the program would also automatically give me access to the full library of a single games ruleset.

I also don't play D&D at all, so that may have something to do with it? But when I purchased my license, I knew exactly what I was getting.

[Nickademus]

Keep 'em coming. Maybe we can somehow brainstorm a cool name that isn't confusing, encapsulates what the Ultimate provides and that SmiteWorks would be willing to take on board...

There is always another option. It's not a flashy or as good on the marketing side, but I think it is better to entice people with a description rather than confuse them with a name. The format for the licenses are to built access upon the last, giving the purchaser more options (free player -> player/GM -> player/GM/host for all). So the best naming scheme to avoid confusion, communicate the structure, and have room for expansion is a naming system that also builds off of itself.


Tier 1 license: demo campaign, join tier 3 games.
Tier 2 license: host owned campaigns, join any game.
Tier 3 license: host owned campaigns allowing tier 1 players, join any game.
Tier 4 license: (fictional example of expansion) host any campaign allowing tier 1 players, join any game.
Tier 5 license: (fictional example of expansion) access luxury mode as a player or host.

[LordEntrails]

I remember that thread. Couldn't come up with an ideal name then either. But I do think we can come up with something better.

"Master"
"Unlimited Host"
"Progenitor"
"Conqueror"
"Maximum"
"Performance"
"Vigor"

[LordEntrails]

Just one fairly-new user's perspective, but imo the FG subscription definitions seem very clear. When I purchased an Ultimate License, it was an Ultimate License for Fantasy Grounds, not for D&D. Fantasy Grounds is not D&D, it's a system-neutral platform for playing D&D... and GURPS, and Pathfinder, and Fate, and whatever your gaming system of choice happens to be. I don't follow the logic of why buying the program would also automatically give me access to the full library of a single games ruleset.

I also don't play D&D at all, so that may have something to do with it? But when I purchased my license, I knew exactly what I was getting.
For most people, you and I included, we either didn't make a wrong assumption, or actually did a bit of reading to find out just what the licenses were for. But, We see this same issue on the forums several times a year (at least).

So, the hope/thought is if there is some other way to name or describe the licenses that will help reduce the number of times this issue pops up :)

[Trenloe]

Tier 1 license: demo campaign, join tier 3 games.
Tier 2 license: host owned campaigns, join any game.
Tier 3 license: host owned campaigns allowing tier 1 players, join any game.
Tier 4 license: (fictional example of expansion) host any campaign allowing tier 1 players, join any game.
Tier 5 license: (fictional example of expansion) access luxury mode as a player or host.

Interesting. If nothing else, it will force people to actually read what each one means, rather than making assumptions. ;)

Does "luxury mode" come with a shagpile carpet you can run your bare feet through? I hope so because I'd definitely make that assumption... ;)

https://www.newgenerationflooring.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Shag-Pile-Carpet-Newcastle.jpg

I don't think that colour nail polish suits me though...

[Nickademus]

Does "luxury mode" come with a shagpile carpet you can run your bare feet through? I hope so because I'd definitely make that assumption... ;)

I have plans for 'luxury mode', but yes, it can come with shagpile carpet if you wish. I'll even include text about how every character feels compelled to remove their shoes and run their bare feet through it.

I don't think that colour nail polish suits me though... You'll get used to it.

[dulux-oz]

How about instead of "Ultimate" SW uses "Überhost" (or some variant) - does that seem to convey to people that its all about the hosting of games and that this is the Über level of hosting (Über = "denoting an outstanding or supreme example of a particular kind of person or thing", "to a great or extreme degree").

Actually, thinking about it more, I think we need to concentrate not on the "Ultimate" part but on the "Hosting" part - try to convey the idea that its all about the hosting.

Thoughts?

[Bidmaron]

Entry, standard, and best? Virtue of simplicity and no one will get confused whether 1 or 5 is better

[LordEntrails]

I like Uberhost. It reminds my of Unlimited Host *G*

I also think the tier or level naming approach has some merit too. But, a concern with levels is it implies linear differences. Which is true for now, but may not be valid for future developments. i.e. what if some future enhancement or add-on (for instance, 3D maps/tables) becomes an option to any license level?

[Trenloe]

Taking the original post in this thread as an example... The more I think about it, the more I think that it doesn't really matter what you call the Ultimate license: Best, Uberhost, Ultimate Host, Master, Level 5, or whatever, as long as it's not blatantly misleading (e.g. "Everything we do"). If a customer doesn't even make the first effort to read up on what they're getting, then any reasonable name doesn't make a difference. Maybe it's because someone is paying over $149 for the Ultimate license (or $10/month) and they think that level of cost is going to give them everything. But I think that viewpoint is pretty rare - I'm sure it's a very low percentage of monthly sales. It's not like we have a dozen people a week coming on the forums and thinking that Ultimate gives them over $1000 worth of DLC for $149 (or $10/month). If people aren't willing to spend a few minutes reading what they actually get for their money or, in this case listen to some random person on the Internet and believe that D&D 4E is officially supported and then complain it's false advertising, then a cool-and-trendy UberBestHostMasterLevel5 name isn't going to make any difference. Someone's going to see the top level price, pay it and expect everything.

And, in the majority of these rare cases, the customer understands once it's pointed out. Sometimes the issue is that they don't know about the different licenses - OGL/SRD, Basic Rules, etc., sometimes it's because they simply haven't read anything at all and realise their mistake. Some stay around once it's explained to them and enjoy using FG to game with their friends, some get a refund and move on. You're never, ever, going to get the full information across to everyone of some people aren't willing to do a tiny bit of reading to see what they're getting.

[Erin Righ]

For most people, you and I included, we either didn't make a wrong assumption, or actually did a bit of reading to find out just what the licenses were for. But, We see this same issue on the forums several times a year (at least).

So, the hope/thought is if there is some other way to name or describe the licenses that will help reduce the number of times this issue pops up :)

No my friend we will reach none of these people because using FG Ultimate Subscription for about 10 months now, I've seen problems like this crop up few times, each and every time there is a post from T.R.E.N.L.O.E with the basic gist running something along the lines of "I don't understand (always bad to confuse the AI (stuff in parentheses are my own thoughts)) it states clearly in the <follows with highlighted text> on the main page, that it is not the case so I don't get what your issue is? Please cite your sources (the AI is more eloquent than me)"

And I see people on here from all over the world united, not by common language but rather, common hobbies, where English is not their first language, but their English is a damn sight better than my French, or Portuguese, or Spanish, or German, and they manage to navigate the complexities of the FG/Smiteworks web site without managing to come to the wrong conclusion. And I, who am not a computer genius, managed to understand, so I thought to myself, "What do we do that these people must not do or else they wouldn't take 7 months to realize that they didn't get their product that they were expecting, and if they had done it, they probably wouldn't have concluded that anyway?"

Then it hit me and I heard Cenk Uygur in my head blurt out "Of Course!!" The answer is obvious, "We use our heads for more than a funnel to get Cheetos and Mountain Dew down our gullet, and our eyes for looking at more than Elf Porn (hey there is nothing wrong with a little elf porn)...We read!!"

My honest opinion is these people don't read. They don't read the product description, and they don't read the forums to find out if anyone else has the same problem, and they certainly don't read end user agreements, Open Gaming Licences, and Fair Use Policies, and then I realize that we are wasting our finger strength typing to a blind audience and then I hear the voice of Jeff Foxworthy and it sounds like;

[REMOVED]

<Flicks 2 cp into the room, grunts, and hobbles back to his corner to chuff on his pipe>

And stay off my lawn too

[Ken L]

I'd recommend not icing out new users with the dark souls 'git gud' paraphrase as you're killing many younger and casual users whom will avoid FG and spread that word to avoid it.

[Trenloe]

I'd recommend not icing out new users with the dark souls 'git gud' paraphrase as you're killing many younger and casual users whom will avoid FG and spread that word to avoid it.
I think that's a bit of an extreme statement. In the vast majority of cases the community helps users out and is very friendly. We always try to welcome new users and try to help them along. There's no "killing many younger and casual users..." that I'm aware of and I'm concerned where that opinion comes from?

I must admit the last but one post is the first in this thread that has actually got to the point of calling people stupid. Prior to that we're discussing the simple truths of people making purchases on the Internet - and you can't deny that there are people who will not read information properly and make all sorts of assumptions. And in all of the cases that have been raised on these forums the community has addressed the issue in a friendly and informative manner. I don't think things are anywhere near as dark as you think...

[GunnarGreybeard]

8 month forum member and that was their first post. No prior questions . . . "Hows this work?", "Explain this to me?"

[Erin Righ]

8 month forum member and that was their first post. No prior questions . . . "Hows this work?", "Explain this to me?"

There ain't no cur....forget it

[Moon Wizard]

I think everything that needs to be said on this topic has been said. I'm going to go ahead and close this thread.

We appreciate both sides of the argument, and we will continue to try to provide the best guidance we can provide to new users.

Cheers,
JPG

[Trenloe]

Note to posters - I don't think we should be calling anyone stupid. We can point out areas where they should have researched better, came to the forums to ask questions, etc.. But please don't be calling people stupid. Thanks.