Sales Enquiry

[chook]

I cannot find the contact details for your sales team on the site. Could you please provide them?

[dulux-oz]

You could try [email protected]

[chook]

You could try [email protected]

Thanks, I am looking for sales though. That is listed as the e-mail address for technical support.

[Zacchaeus]

Hi chook, welcome to FG. What is it that you have a problem with. We might be able to help here.

[chook]

I don't have a problem however happy to talk here before making a purchasing decision.

I am interested in a VTT solution and so far Fantasy Grounds appears to be the only on-premise product in the market. My home environment is virtualised and my preferred implementation method is to install Fantasy Ground on a virtualised Linux server; Arch Linux specifically. My virtualisation solution is ESX and vSphere. I have read in some of the literature on the site that Fantasy Grounds is limited to a single machine however there are times when I will be travelling and will want to also operate on a laptop. I am flexible in this regard that I can connect back to my server from the remote workstation. My primary concern about the installation being locked to a single machine is if I need to migrate my virtual machine what mechanism is used to identify the machine? I have encountered issues in this department before, usually where the identification is related to the MAC address of the NIC. While MAC spoofing is a simple matter it is not recommended in VMWare's best practice guides as it can cause issues with the MAC database on the ESX host going out of sync.

Before making the decision to purchase I am interested in understanding the technical limitations of the product and also if you offer a true Linux version or only support the platform via WINE. I am fairly confident these are not the normal run of the mill type questions you get from customers which is why I was happy to talk to your sales team directly as I felt they would be used to these types of enquiries. Any information you can provide is greatly appreciated.

[dulux-oz]

Hi Chook,

FG is a windows program and so at the moment any Linux-implementation is via Wine. Your setup sounds a lot like mine (although I went with Centos - big deal :) ). However, I run FG on both my main Win10 box and my Win10 laptop with the same license - although NOT at the same time - and I also run up to 6 copies of (Free/Demo) FG via VMWare for testing/development purposes.

So there is no need to install FG to a server and remote in (indeed, with the current 32-bit engine its not recommended at all - this MAY change when the new Unity-based version is released - ETA = Unknown). Instead install FG where you need to and if you need to GM away from home grab a copy of your campaign folder and copy it to you laptop/whatever.

BTW don't run FG from a Cloud (private or hosted) as it tends to corrupt the database. You can transfer an "offline" copy of your campaign via cloud (for backup, etc) but don't run it from cloude.

Does that help?

Oh, and for the record, you would be surprised at the type of people and their level of coding, networking, business, and other knowledge and experience in this Community :)

[chook]

Thanks dulux-oz,

That does help. My intention had been to purchase the ultimate license and put that on the server then use free licenses as clients via tablets/laptops at the table. I am working on the plans for a table with a large video panel built into the surface for the maps and this seemed like it would work. Actually, I almost scored an old Samsung Microsoft Surface for $50 a few weeks ago which would have been perfect.

I don't think Fantasy Grounds is the solution I am looking for at this stage but maybe when they have fixed the database problems (which intrigue me but are also none of my business).

Thanks again for the information and taking the time.

[dulux-oz]

Don't get me wrong, there's no database problem, just an issue running from cloud storage.

And your model is "less then optimal" - what you want to do has been done before and is being done right now (by me as well as by others). The thing is you don't put FG on a server and then log into it - it doesn't work like that. Instead, the GM runs a host locally and then the players connect in as clients - a subtle difference but a difference never the less.

Don't dismiss FG out of hand - instead, take some more time to actually learn how the architecture actually works. I was in your boat several years ago and was actually writing my own VTT when I discover FG (and the others). I settled on FG to do the exact same job you want to use it for and I've never looked back since - and you won't find a better VTT anywhere (especially when you consider the great FG Community).

So, if you've got any other questions or queries then please ask :)

Cheers

[chook]

I think perhaps we might have had a misunderstanding due to our differing uses of the term cloud. My server is an on-premise physical device and the VM's are hosted there. I consider this to be an on-premise private cloud in the sense that cloud is more of marketing term than a technical one. Those of us (which I suspect includes you :)) that remember those mainframe things in really big rooms know that the terms distributed and centralised computing are more accurate.

From what you are saying I suspect that the problem is due to some kind of latency issues than an actual issue with having the DB stored on a different VM to the software installation (which would be my intention; put the DB on a dedicated SQL server). SharePoint suffers the same problems with a 20ms time to first byte requirement which is part of the reason MS dropped support for stretched farms in the 2013 release. I did search for the architecture information but all I could find was a high level wiki article that you had written. It didn't provide any technical detail on how the solution worked or what the technical requirements are.

The primary reason for wanting a server based application is that I want to use a RaspberryPi in the lounge that is stuck on the back of my TV. All of my players bar one will be local and we really just want to include "that one guy." Sometimes I plan to travel to where the one remote player is and run the game from there since we have been gaming together for 25 years and this is a handy excuse to catch-up.

I certainly haven't written FG off. It is certainly the best product on the market right now; perhaps a VTT just isn't the solution for my problem. I think that being able to bounce this off you has helped me realise that. Quite possibly all I need is a video chat solution.

[Myrdin Potter]

The recommended non-primary machine backup (cloud or whatever you want to call it) is run the game on a local machine and then copy it to the networked storage after the game ends. Then if you are traveling, copy it to whatever computer you are using when you are traveling.

I know you want to run the program on a Linux VM. I guess the first thing to make sure is that it works with wine. If the hard drive is physically part of the machine the VM is running on, the occasional fail to write issue may not happen. From what I can tell, FG is often writing to the database and because of latency when sending the information over a network, a failed write or an out of sequence write can eventually corrupt the database.

I travel all the time and use a laptop to host when I am traveling and my main machine when I am home. There should be no reason when some remote screen application would not work if it was absolutely needed to always run on the VM on your Linux machine, as long as the file issue does not occur.

If all you are doing is displaying a map, you may be able use a chat program and screen sharing. You will lose all the automation and token handling of a VTT, but it may work fine for you.

[Andraax]

You can run FG on a server and then the GM connects to that server via some remote control service (I have used vnc). That works well as long as the GM is local to the server, however running remote using that setup is less than optimal. What I have done is setup a VPN to my home network on my laptop. When I'm local to home, I host like normal. When I'm remote, I first VPN into my home network, then host like normal. A bit slower, but it seems to work well. Players (all remote) connect to my home network the same regardless of where I'm at.

Oh, BTW, the DB is stored in a flat file in XML format so a SQL server is not needed.

[dulux-oz]

Contrary to how Andraax uses things (& I'm not dissing Andraax at all) this is not really the most optimal way to use the product, in that the product was never designed to be use that way. I'm glad it works for him that way, but I'd never try to use it that way - to each their own.

When I use the term cloud I use it in both the "marketing" and actual technical terms: vm-hosting is not cloud computing, even though cloud computing uses vm-hosting, and cloud-storage is exactly that - storage "in the cloud". Basically, if you're not running Azure, "AWS" or OpenStack (or a similar cloud-software) its a not a cloud, its virtualization. One is a sub-set of the other.

Now, FG runs in a peer-to-host model (something you don't see much of any more, and it was never that popular in the 1st place): the GM runs FG on a local machine with a local XML data-store (or more than one) and players run copies of FG that connect back to the GM's "host" and download copies of the XML data-store into RAM. Packets fly back-and-forth between the GM's "host" and players' "clients" and everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - is processed by the GM's copy and stored on the GM's local HDD.

We have discovered, through trial and error and people losing their campaign data, that running FG with the XML data-store on Dropbox (to name but one example) can lead to data-corruption. As FG is designed to use a local data-store we've found the best way to use it is as designed. Once FG is not running then that XML data-store can be placed on a cloud-storage system or a non-local HDD for backup/transfer, but we always copy it back to the local machine when we run FG.

Now, to address you particular needs (and this is how I pretty much run things for my "local" game): I have a Win10 box with FG (Ultimate) and each on my players brings their laptop and connect to my FG "host". I have a large TV set up as a monitor which I use as a 2nd screen and I run a 2nd instance of FG on my pc which I pump to to the TV - this is so I can both show a large digital "players map" (which each player also has on their laptop) and also the video link of our "missing" player. At the end of each game I take a copy of my data-store and upload it to a folder on my main file server (a Centos Box). If I have to GM away from home I grab the latest backup of my data-store and copy it to my laptop, then run everything from my laptop just like I would with my main win10 PC. There is no need to remote into a server running FG in "host" mode - this is a needless complication who's benefits are far outweighed by the non-benefits.

Does that all make sense? :)

Oh, and BTW, for the record it might be of benefit to quickly check out my LinkedIn profile below so people can get an idea of my "authority" in the technical areas/discussions above :)

Cheers

[chook]

Right, this all makes a lot more sense. The application is much simpler than I had suspected and I mean that in a positive way. The fact that the database is flat text file that is in a constant state of read/write as opposed to transactional processing explains why things go wrong with it being located too many hops away. It also probably explains why the perpetual ultimate license is only 149USD too :). Perhaps a little more information about this on the Web site would be beneficial? I feel that I have taken up a lot of people's time for something that could have been just laid out in the documentation and read. What I do know now is that if I buy a VTT it will be FG.

I don't have a LinkedIn account (or any form of social media for that matter) but based on your signature and explanation I am happy.

Oh and Andraax is probably doing things that way because after he went to the Eastern Hemisphere of Kulthea he has been quite insane ;).

[dulux-oz]

Hey, no problem. i don't consider it a waste of time - if you wanted to know then others would as well - plus, I love the product (yes, a fan-boy) which is why I did/do the Tutorial Videos and why I'm one of the Community developers - also why I'm an Immortal. BTW, anyone who has earned the title of Immortal is someone who knows and works with FG a lot, so you can trust implicitly anything they say about FG. most of the Immortals are also Moderators on these Forums, and if you stick around a bit you'll quickly learn who else you can trust to give you good info (like Andraax, for eg).

(As an aside, you don't need a LinkedIn Account to take a look at someone's basic profile - one reason why I use it professionally :) )

FG's been around for well over 10 years so its got a few quirks from back then. There is a new version coming (based on the Unity Engine - FGU) which should bring FG fully into the modern era, but SmiteWorks is a pretty small shop so things can take a while - but Doug and Moon (& the others) are really quick to answer questions and fix bugs etc here on the Forums (actually, I'm surprised Doug hasn't poster here yet...)

Anyway, you'll be surprised about how nice, friendly and helpful this Community is - it really will blow your mind - and its one of the greatest assets FG has. So we really don't mind answering questions, etc.

So check out some Tutorial Vids, have a look at some of the plug-ins (known as Extensions) and drive into the Forums - you'll be glad you did

Cheers

[Andraax]

Contrary to how Andraax uses things (& I'm not dissing Andraax at all) this is not really the most optimal way to use the product, in that the product was never designed to be use that way. I'm glad it works for him that way, but I'd never try to use it that way - to each their own.

That's why I said it was sub-optimal and went on to explain how I do it now, which works much better. :-)

[Andraax]

Oh and Andraax is probably doing things that way because after he went to the Eastern Hemisphere of Kulthea he has been quite insane ;).

You must be a loremaster....

:-P

[dulux-oz]

That's why I said it was sub-optimal and went on to explain how I do it now, which works much better. :-)

I stand corrected :)

Sorry

[Nylanfs]

That's why I said it was sub-optimal and went on to explain how I do it now, which works much better. :-)

This doesn't proclude you from being insane though. :-P

[chook]

So thanks again everyone, I have been playing around with the Demo version and it seems quite elegant. The XML files are easy to understand and edit which is great. What doesn't seem to be working is the export. I made a race, added some bits and went to export it to see how that would work as a basis for copying and pasting. The export kept failing. Am I right to presume that given I am using a demonstration license this is working as intended? If so, that seems pretty reasonable given for about 5AUD I can pick up a one month license and try it out fully featured.

The only criticism I would have is that the cost of tooling up with a 5E package is pretty steep at about 350AUD (PHB, DMG, MM, Volo, Tokens). As a grognard all current settings are terrible and I will therefore use only my favourite settings which, like a Linux distribution, is far superior to all of your favourites. :P

I don't want to sound like a whinger because the effort that would go into producing the modules would be pretty high but when I have already purchased physical and PDF copies of the books I want then it starts to add up. Don't get me wrong, you don't go into a hobby to save money and I have the skill set to do the work myself however I am pondering the difficulty this may present in making sales to people without the skills. As I wrote earlier, this comment should not detract from the effort that goes into the creation. I have raised the argument in other settings that when you buy the physical rules you should get some kind of digital copy as part of the package. Managing that is the tricky part and there are many arguments for and against it in the digital rights arena with fairly diametrically opposed beliefs.

Again, great product and I will keep exploring it.

[Zacchaeus]

Yes, you can't save or export anything with just the demo version.

Leaving aside the license costs what you would want to buy in addition to that depends on a number of factors - not least of all budget. If you are going to be playing published adventures only then I would suggest that the only thing you need is the PHB - and technically if you can fill in the blanks yourself then you don't even need that. If you are going to be creating your own campaigns then obviously the more resources the merrier. I would suggest that you pick up a subscription for the Ultimate license and play around with the software, have your players join in with the demo version and just basically try it out properly. You can cancel the sub within a month and pay nothing if it doesn't work out for you.

Incidentally all WotC material will be dropping substantially in price tomorrow (15th August - which it may already be in Aussie land :))

[Myrdin Potter]

The cost of the materials/DLC is set by Dbs publishers and the need to "pay again" is a common complaint. It is no different than most publishers that charge you for the kindle version and the paper version and many RPG publishers do not give the PDF with the paper version and the ones that do require you buy from them.

As noted, prices are dropping substantially the 15th. Like a lot.

You can enter everything yourself if you want to, so the purchased DLC is an optional time saver.

My daughter just used my computer to DM for the first time and ran 6 brand new players through a module I had converted over. All the six had never used FG before but were able to use the demo account to play when attached to my computer and it was a big success. (My daughter has a standard license which does not allow more than one demo account at a time and I can only share DLC with players connected to my client in server mode unless I made the content myself).

The sharing of DLC is another key feature. My players get full advantage of the PHB when they connect with me. All but one of the 6 now have their own standard licensee as well.

So I think the time savings are huge to buy the DLC and prices are really dropping.

[chook]

Thanks Zaccchaeus and makes sense. Free demo is free.

Really the 5AUD to try it "all" is not an unreasonable ask as someone still had to put the effort in to develop it and that small amount goes back into future enhancements. Life also has a strange way of interfering so when you think there is heaps of time to give it a good test drive lots of very important things will come up in that month. Given that it costs nothing if I cancel within the month my presumption is that the fee is levied at the conclusion of the month which means that 5AUD gets me two months to try it out. That is pretty generous. My MSDN subscription costs me 400CDN before I even get to try anything.

One of the appeals to buy the modules I listed (in addition to the game I mentioned earlier in the thread) is that I am looking to start up a game for my nephews and son who range in age from fourteen to nine. This would save them or my brother (the nephew's dad) from having to purchase the digital versions as they already have the physical books. If I buy the FG modules and an Ultimate license then they can just play which is an easier gateway into awesome adventures.

The Wizards content dropping in price is good as I realise the publisher probably has a significant influence on the pricing so I shall see what happens tomorrow.

[Nylanfs]

Note that because of how Paypal handles subscriptions you want to cancel your subscription towards the end of the period. When Paypal cancels the subscription the software automatically cancels it on Smiteworks side.

[Trenloe]

A couple of clarifications on comments in this thread.

It isn't every D&D 5E product that gets a price drop today. Info here: https://mailchi.mp/fantasygrounds/massive-price-drop-coming-soon-on-dungeons-dragons-modules-for-fantasy-grounds

Further info on subscription cancelling here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=license_and_purchasing_issues#faq_subs criptionexplaination

[chook]

Thanks Trenloe. The ones that are reducing significantly are the core products which I think is the key. You only need the PHB, DMG and MM to play; everything else is a luxury. At today's conversion that makes it about 115AUD to get them which I don't think is that bad as you can be off and playing for a reasonable outlay and then keep adding over time in smaller chunks just as you would in a purely paper based setting. It wouldn't take long to spend that much money down the pub and have nothing but a headache to show for it. ;)

[Myrdin Potter]

I strongly suggest that if you want to actually really test out the software that you pay for the ultimate subscription as it allows unlimited demo accounts to connect.

There are several very inexpensive 5e modules in the store that you can use to run a game for some friends and that will give you a real sense of how it works.