Ultimate Subscription - Spread the Word

[Martin153]

I have had several conversations on Facebook today. People just do not know about the Ultimate Subscription option. Nearly every player from Roll20 I have spoken to states 'I like Fantasy Grounds but at $110.00 it is just to expensive'' I see a lot of FG posts on Facebook, but none advertising the Ultimate Subscription option. Smiteworks are missing out on attracting a heap of players as a result. Perhaps some posts advertising this would be in order?

Martin

[Nylanfs]

People see what they want to see ...

[LordEntrails]

Word of mouth certainly doesn't hurt. I try to set things straight when I see them. But a LOT of people have a completely wrong impression on the cost of FG. I regularly hear/see people make statements that it costs $250+ to play 5E on FG. We all know that's not true, but it's what some people think, and are not hesitant to share with others.

[celestian]

Word of mouth certainly doesn't hurt. I try to set things straight when I see them. But a LOT of people have a completely wrong impression on the cost of FG. I regularly hear/see people make statements that it costs $250+ to play 5E on FG. We all know that's not true, but it's what some people think, and are not hesitant to share with others.

If you throw down for ultimate purchase outright and 5e books it's well within that range. Don't get me wrong I think FG is great but sticker shock kept me away for a long time.

I didn't know there was a monthly option which I used to try it out ... in about 2 weeks I bought ultimate outright and never looked back... that said I don't play 5e so the cost of those is not something im concerned about.

I do play some 5e with my friends using the SRD stuff and it works but you know people. If it's not everything... why bother.

[JohnD]

Roll20 seeds these discussions with their own advocates that spewes blatantly incorrect and misleading information.

[LordEntrails]

If you throw down for ultimate purchase outright and 5e books it's well within that range. Don't get me wrong I think FG is great but sticker shock kept me away for a long time.

I didn't know there was a monthly option which I used to try it out ... in about 2 weeks I bought ultimate outright and never looked back... that said I don't play 5e so the cost of those is not something im concerned about.

I do play some 5e with my friends using the SRD stuff and it works but you know people. If it's not everything... why bother.
There is a big difference saying it's required to spend $250 and saying you can or might want to spend $250. With either base license (standard or ultimate) you CAN readily play 5E. You just might want to spend more for drag and drop and digital versions etc. (I did, I bought Ult and all my 5E stuff on FG, and only FG, so I know I'm well over that number, but because I know what I'm getting, and I have never bought the printed books, it doesn't feel expensive to me.)

[LordEntrails]

The other thing to think about, and if applicable reply to people with, if you bought on FG what Roll20 has available, you would only be buying the PHB and any adventures they have out. It's been a few weeks since I checked, but they do not yet have the DMG and I'm not sure they have the MM available either (just the SRD). So there is another hole in any comparison.

[celestian]

There is a big difference saying it's required to spend $250 and saying you can or might want to spend $250. With either base license (standard or ultimate) you CAN readily play 5E. You just might want to spend more for drag and drop and digital versions etc. (I did, I bought Ult and all my 5E stuff on FG, and only FG, so I know I'm well over that number, but because I know what I'm getting, and I have never bought the printed books, it doesn't feel expensive to me.)

I just think the OP has a point. Making a push noting the costs and "free" stuff you can get for 5e (and all the other supported rulesets) would probably help.

I suspect however that they probably will hold off till FGU is out tho.

[LordEntrails]

I just think the OP has a point. Making a push noting the costs and "free" stuff you can get for 5e (and all the other supported rulesets) would probably help. .
Absolutely. And I do make an effort when I see misinformation on other sites/formats to correct it. Something I hope everyone here feels comfortable doing.

[Myrdin Potter]

When I see a post on different VTT choices on the main Facebook 5e D&D group, I typically post my opinion. I think FG was the right choice for me but it is not the only choice.

The only posts that I hate are the ones that total up all the potential DLC cost and state it as if required.

For full functionality, either $10 a month or $150 (when not on sale) is the cost I prefer to discuss as most people think of just being able to run games and the Ultimate License does that without anyone else needing to spend money. The WoTC core rulebooks DLC I then present as a matter of $ or time.

[ddavison]

We do advertise the $10/mo option from time to time. I do comment when I see it misrepresented as well, but it does get listed as requiring $300+ quite a bit by people who don't have FG. Occasionally, I've even seen people claim that it costs $300+ to use and they know because they bought it all but decide instead to use free Roll20. Those are probably the most concerning posts because I would basically have to look up a person in our system and call them out on not actually owning anything for FG. Instead, I just correct the rebut the inaccurate statements.

[ll00ll00ll00ll]

I have to say that I am definitely noticing a lot more FG activity / mentions in general. Kudos to whoever you have posting those updates spotlighting various extensions, modules, etc. Those might be he perfect place to start mentioning the "true" costs of FG ownership... After all, you're going out of your way to note community support, why not also throw in a little sidebar "now available for as little as $3.99 a month, money back guaranteed!" After all, the best way to show community support is to grow the community.

[ddavison]

I have to say that I am definitely noticing a lot more FG activity / mentions in general. Kudos to whoever you have posting those updates spotlighting various extensions, modules, etc. Those might be he perfect place to start mentioning the "true" costs of FG ownership... After all, you're going out of your way to note community support, why not also throw in a little sidebar "now available for as little as $3.99 a month, money back guaranteed!" After all, the best way to show community support is to grow the community.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I will pass that along to Robert Adducci, who is our guy that handles most of the social media posts these days. We have been very happy with his work so far.

[donpaulo]

it certainly can be a vexing issue

I love FG but also use R20 and find both have strong points

If I had to choose, I would easily select FG but then again I purchased quite a bit here :)

[Tosayuf]

People see what they want to see ...

That is true, but messaging plays in important role. Clearing up misunderstanding is the responsibility of Smiteworks. Maybe if there was more outreach to roll20 fans from us members who have the ultimate license, they can see they can play for free and get familiar with the system.

[celestian]

That is true, but messaging plays in important role. Clearing up misunderstanding is the responsibility of Smiteworks. Maybe if there was more outreach to roll20 fans from us members who have the ultimate license, they can see they can play for free and get familiar with the system.

I actually have used their LFG system to pickup players for empty slots. When the player contacts me after reading my announcement I tell them I've switched to FG and about 75% of them are still interested.... tho I don't play 5e so perhaps it's harder for the players I find and most are more apt to go through a few hoops.

I have to say I do like their LFG system more ;(

[Szabtom]

I have to say I do like their LFG system more ;(

Not considering Unity and engine changes, the most important thing to improve in my opinion is the LFG functionality. The system should show what account type you need to play in the listed games. Most GM-s have ultimate so the LFG page would show that you can play for free most of the time.

[lokiare]

What specifically do you like better about Roll20's LFG system?

[Martin153]

Some comments from the post I was following on Facebook

"I tried using it, but couldn't connect all my players, silly Mac people, and there is no video chat option. But if they made the UI less funky I might go back. It's.a stupid powerful tool".

"I used it for a few months running an online campaign. It's good, and easy to use if you're playing a game that they have packs and maps for. Trying to do your own maps is a pain, especially on the fly".

"Have they changed the pricing model to a subscription based one? Last time I checked (a year or two ago) it was like $100+ or something".

"It automates a lot of things for you - monster and character sheets, rolls, initiative, etc.
But there can be some steep learning curve to using it, and you will need to repurchase books you use often (phb, scag, volo, dmg, mm are all separate buys although you can buy in a bundle to save a little. You can manually enter and import your own data into the system but that requires some knowledge of xml and the books the program uses.)"

"It is extremely expensive once you look at including all the options you will need".

"It's beautiful and very functional but I prefer roll20 purely because it has video and voice".

"I love Fantasy grounds. I have an ultimate licence, and every 5th Ed book along with a couple of map packs. That being said, it's not necessarily for everyone. It comes with a hefty price tag, even buying through steam (which I did) gets you some kind of discount but not a huge discount. If you have a regular group that can pool funds, or the money isn't an issue, then it's fantastic. But, I'm probably 700 dollars (Canadian) in".

"Prefer Role20 ...Fantasy Grounds was too complicated to setup"

"Fantasy grounds is a premium sexy experience that costs more, but it still lacks the key feature of Roll20 which is dynamic lighting. For that reason, I prefer Roll20 for my online gaming"

Martin

[Ken L]

People see what they want to see ...
FG isn't well known anymore, it's niche compared to the heyday when its main competition was maptools; which by the way is also fading away. Classically, FG didn't have a subscription, so for those who heard of FG prior all they know of is the flat rate purchases which was true at the time. The lack of a welcome mat for free users in the age of 'freemium' is also another factor for why web platforms are performing better. Communication and social outreach is key to getting new users, sticking up one's nose at them, especially the younger web connected generation is throwing an entire market down the toilet as well as the future of TTRPGers. I have run a number of encounters at FLGS and it's a growing trend among new players and GMs where accessibility is key; it also keeps my GM hat fresh as opposed to running with the same personalities that might lock me to a certain perspective. If one don't see the writing on the wall, then they'll be bound to fade away to a rocking chair decrying 'get off my lawn'.


Roll20 seeds these discussions with their own advocates that spewes blatantly incorrect and misleading information.
I highly doubt that. As much as I disagree with the direction R20 has taken, they're not actively planting discussions. It's their enthusiastic user base which out numbers FG, I'd equate them as well as some of FG's own as 'console enthusiasts' where my X is better than their Y. I've run several sessions on pretty much every VTT out there so it grants perspective.

[GunnarGreybeard]

Is there something I am missing about their forums that is that much different? It just looks like a typical forum using a similar LFP/LFG thread setup. It could just be that its seems easier to find players and games, due to the higher user number traffic. More eyes on the site, increased chances of hits.

Do them have the 5e DMG yet?

[JohnD]

Every thread about Roll20 I see people complaining about whole games disintegrating because of flaky and rude players, or not even being able to just find a group in the first place. They go after the lowest common denominator. How great can their system really be?

There most certainly are talking points - they always pop-up and every time like a mantra. You know the ones; your eyes roll when you see them.

[Ken L]

Every thread about Roll20 I see people complaining about whole games disintegrating because of flaky and rude players, or not even being able to just find a group in the first place. They go after the lowest common denominator. How great can their system really be?

They have volume which FG does not. In addition, any freely accessible game will have that problem, even in-person. It's just magnified because online games are that much easier to get into.

Some might say 'quality over quantity' but you're reducing the size of the pie as well as market-share. In a larger population you'll equally get more experienced players so let's not chalk it up to that. The media and information space is changing and it's easy to attribute the flaws one sees to something particular rather than as endemic to the whole.

Take meetup for example. Local gatherings were always a thing but it was difficult to find others who shared an interest, so mainly the most determined individuals sought each other out. In the age of 'meetup' as well as other web focused group platforms it's super easy to form a group and find others of similar interest. However people are less committed but though sheer volume you find great members whom you would otherwise never meet. -- Does this sound not dissimilar to a gaming group?

[ddavison]

FG isn't well known anymore, it's niche compared to the heyday when its main competition was maptools; which by the way is also fading away.

From what we see, FG is actually more popular now than it has ever been before. We are growing by 150 or so users a day on our forums and this is several times faster than we have ever seen previously. This is primarily due to new login requirements that consolidate our Steam new users and our FG website users. The forums and discord are also growing in the number of active users at any one time.

For many of the reasons expressed here (which we are acutely aware of), we are not seeing the 1K users per day Roll20 is seeing. From research we did back in 2014, we estimated that only 45% of the users on Roll20 had played for 4 hours or more within a year and about 4% of their users subscribed, with slightly more Supporters than Mentors. It's a different model than we use and it is working out well for them. If they kept those same rates and are at 2M users, that means they probably make about $2-3M a year in subscription revenue. When you add on revenue from WOTC and other marketplace stuff, they are probably doing extremely well.

We are not at that same level, but we are doing better than we ever have before. This is allowing us to reinvest, grow our team and focus on longer term initiatives. While I love to compete, we don't have to do better than our competition as long as we are continuing to grow. I'm confident that many of the issues we know about for FG are actively being worked on and should go away with our FGU release. We are investing current profits into this endeavor and not going into debt to build this. As long as it fares as well as the current version is doing, we will be fine for the foreseeable future.

[Ken L]

Well said dave.

It might be worth nothing that I think we're riding on the tail-winds of web based platforms as their users look for alternatives. They get their start due to ease of accessibility, but then look for similar platforms. It's hard to compete for welcome mat users against a freemium service, but FG is scouping up those looking for features.

[ddavison]

I agree.

(I'm Doug, though)

[Ken L]

I agree.

(I'm Doug, though)

i shall proceed to eat my shorts now.

[Martin153]

Every thread about Roll20 I see people complaining about whole games disintegrating because of flaky and rude players, or not even being able to just find a group in the first place. They go after the lowest common denominator. How great can their system really be?

When I see this post I try to educate people about FG. However, I then get hit with the cost issue. Hence my original post SPREAD THE WORD. A lot of people complain about Roll20, but don't consider FG as they think they have a $100+ cost at the outset!

I have to agree that FG attracts the more mature/reliable player base.

[ll00ll00ll00ll]

I'm just curious if you can see the users that are using FG at the table (like myself). I rarely have players sign in to my campaign, instead they typically use their paper character sheets and their minis on a map. I'm wondering if that would be enough of a percentage of your market where some targeting towards that market segment may make sense.

One of the main reasons I ended up going to FG (over Roll20) had little to do with price, it was basically the features. The many many features. As well as the content availability for 5E. Sure the learning curve is somewhat steep, but it plateaus relatively quickly. Basically, you're talking about users who are able to learn complex rule systems, so it's not that crazy to expect out of your users.

[Martin153]

Strangely, I find the learning curve in FG much less than Roll20. Basically, if you get the character sheet correct, its just dropping dice on top of things. Everything is calculated for you in FG. As far as I know Roll20 isn't even close to that functionality!

[celestian]

What specifically do you like better about Roll20's LFG system?

You can search to a specific game system, which for me is listed as AD&D 1e/2e. They also have basic D&D and other non-3e+ games. FG doesn't allow you to search based on game systems they do not list. You can read all the "others" and find details in descriptions yes but, not as easy for players to find a game for that system.

There is a "listings" discussion "forum" specific to the Game.

Their LFG is also tied to the campaign which is pretty nice. I don't think FG could do something like that unless FGU version has some newer features that would allow it. In anycase it shows the players, time played/etc.


Is there something I am missing about their forums that is that much different? It just looks like a typical forum using a similar LFP/LFG thread setup. It could just be that its seems easier to find players and games, due to the higher user number traffic. More eyes on the site, increased chances of hits.


They have a tool to LFG/LFP similar to FG. Not just a forum LFG.

You might be right, it could just be their base is of a larger size so it makes it easier to find players. Looking at the "other" games listing does make my complaint about not having other game types listed seem a bit silly when there is only about 10.

Please don't take these issues as anything other than "things I'd use". I really like FG and have no intention of using roll20.


Strangely, I find the learning curve in FG much less than Roll20. Basically, if you get the character sheet correct, its just dropping dice on top of things. Everything is calculated for you in FG. As far as I know Roll20 isn't even close to that functionality!


I find the DM tools in FG FAR FAR superior to any other system out there these days.

[JohnD]

The learning curve IMO is over stated.

I watched one live game (Rolemaster), participated in another. That was enough for me to work through the basics of anything a player needed to know at the time. Grand total time spent probably 4 hours and that was time spent actually playing.

Someone completely new to FG who plays in a game will get through about 65% of what they need to know in the first session if it's 3-ish hours long and makes reasonable use of the software. By the end of session 2 you're up to 80% and the remainder gets added over time, likely at least partially reliant on the DM and his/her use of the software's full capabilities.

Anyone will spend time stumbling around and fiddling with unfamiliar software or interfaces.

For DMing I watched a few videos where Xorn was on one monitor and FG the other and I paused his videos to do what I had just watched him complete. This was enough to get me entering adventure content in a manner that, while minimal, was enough to gather a group and run a session. My first few sessions were I think rough, but I quickly picked up things and added little bits of the more advanced functionality over time. I was helped by a few more experienced FG users in my player list, who could point out how to do things, or better ways of doing something.

So it really isn't difficult; you just need to put some effort in.

[Nyghtmare]

With new players, I have found that through the process of creating their character plus running a single test combat is enough to give them a true grasp of the main features of the software — and they pick up the rest of the stuff pretty fast as they play the campaigns.

[Trenloe]

The "steep learning curve" is because FG has way more functionality than Roll20.

I see the same statement frequently with my mapping software of choice (Campaign Cartographer). Yes, there are other options to use, but they don't have the power or flexibility of Campaign Cartographer. And, like John says with FG, it's only a few hours of "playing" that get you up to speed.

Roll20 is great for people who want base VTT functionality, with a few "wow" factor flashing-light functionality included. That's fine, lots of people don't want to learn in-depth functionality of an application. It's all about gaming, each to their own...

Unfortunately, this thread has come about because there is misinformation out there. This is just a case of life and the Internet, there will always be misinformation - people not knowing details, people not caring that they don't know, people bigging up their first choice, etc., etc.. It's good to get the word out about what FG is now, but don't sweat it if people refuse to listen or put you down. Just move on to people who are worth educating...

[Ken L]

Regarding the UI It's more window explosion if anything. The less things on the screen the better, I'm currently experimenting with widgets so when you minimize a character sheet it shows some pertinent information such as (Sheet: Regina Fitzgerald) therefore when I want to maximize it again, I don't have to look for a tooltip.

Either way, I think this topic has run off the rails a bit here.

[GunnarGreybeard]

Either way, the word needs to get spread . .

[ll00ll00ll00ll]

Either way, the word needs to get spread . .

So, is there a best place for all of us "word-spreaders" to send potential customers? Perhaps a reddit or some YouTube video that debunks all this misinformation?

[Myrdin Potter]

Smiteworks already advertises a fair amount and has a social media specialist. What I have done is what I always do with my hobbies, I share a little. My Facebook mentions my games so my friends see that I am still using FG. I belong to the main 5e Facebook group and I often answer questions there and that includes ones on VTT. I wrote several blog entries on my blog where I mention FG.

I just always remember that Doug allows mention of other products here and does not insult or belittle them or their users, he simply points out where FG is better. I also find the community here good.

I am happy that there are alternatives and I think that FG is the best for me and I make sure people know that.

[dulux-oz]

So, is there a best place for all of us "word-spreaders" to send potential customers? Perhaps a reddit or some YouTube video that debunks all this misinformation?

You could always point people to the Tutorial Vids for FG - Xorn's, damned's and/or mine (and others) - is that a perfect way to convince others? No, but assuming people aren't just Trolling its another tool we can use to help FG spread.

Cheers

[GunnarGreybeard]

The Digital Dungeon Master does some awesome YouTube videos while using FG. I think he has some older tutorials as well.

[celestian]

The Digital Dungeon Master does some awesome YouTube videos while using FG. I think he has some older tutorials as well.

Yup, these are great. I'd highly recommend using these to help folks out on using FG.

[alfiere_bianco]

On Facebook we have an italian group called "Sex, drug and D&D", on that group i was told to start with Roll20 for remote gaming (i spend 80% of my time abroad, into hotels). But as soon as i got into the Telegram chat for Roll20 i was redirected into FG group, and i never looked back.
Ok...this program miss the videochat experience, and it comes with a price...but that price seems well repaid (and c'mon, 10$ at month are not that many).
Now i brought my groups into the game (i hope they will buy the license because i want to be a player too) and we are experiencing a new dimension of RPG.

And of course, i spread the voice wherever i go

[dulux-oz]

On Facebook we have an italian group called "Sex, drug and D&D", on that group i was told to start with Roll20 for remote gaming (i spend 80% of my time abroad, into hotels). But as soon as i got into the Telegram chat for Roll20 i was redirected into FG group, and i never looked back.
Ok...this program miss the videochat experience, and it comes with a price...but that price seems well repaid (and c'mon, 10$ at month are not that many).
Now i brought my groups into the game (i hope they will buy the license because i want to be a player too) and we are experiencing a new dimension of RPG.

And of course, i spread the voice wherever i go

@alfiere => are you aware of the LPak Project here on FG where we endevour to produce Language extensions for FG? Check it out here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27202-LanguagePak-%28LPak%29-Community-Project-Program)