Effects in FG

[General06]

I am super new to D&D, and super new to FG, so please forgive my ignorance if this question is dumb.

Why are effects not already built into the system? There are professional computer coders that built the system in the first place. The Wiki shows the codes that are needed for different effects and how to manually put them in as a user. I just paid over $500 for game where I have to program in the specific code for effects on items and spells. I am given the code by the company that made the program. If the code works, and the effects can be put in ..... why did you not already do it? I have no idea what I'm doing. I am pulling my hair out trying over and over with trial and error to get effects to work. The syntax, brackets blah blah blah .... On the occasion where I am successful and I actually get and effect to work for a trait or item or spell ..... would it not be so much easier if a professional coder that built the fantasy grounds system to just put it in there. Everything in this game should be drag and drop.

Anyway, I'm not angry, just frustrated. I spend more time trying to get Great Weapons Master feat effects to work than I do playing the game. I went with FG because I wanted to streamline the game. I went from a paper and pencil game that reminded me of doing taxes, to a computer based game that requires a degree in computers to actually run.

Is there a list of items, feats, features, spells, effects codes that is more comprehensive than what is in the Wiki that I can copy and paste into my game? Will this stuff all be included one day and I should just be patient? Or is there a huge reason it is not already in there, and I am just to new and stupid to see it?

Thank you in advance for any help or suggestions.

[Mavrik6666]

Hi General

welcome - I'm semi with you on some of the points, been using FG for over a year now, and as a group we have gradually built up a list of effect, powers, feats what we use - My players ( I DM) often grumble about why these aren't already in the game when you buy the content - and for a lot of those effects I agree.
Some are choice to apply or not, and so the program isn't clever enough to know if you want to apply Great Weapon Master or not, and then if you don't want to apply it to the next hit, so some automation is left blank for you to do it the way you want to - you might just say I apply it, subtract 5 to hit, add 10 to damage or you may want to automate it, and I guess that's the crux - making it flexible to allow every game, every DM, every player to be different.

Some effects, feats ; are impossible to code.. or are so complex if wouldn't work, or are 'fluff effect' no game mechanic and again impossible to code.

Greater Weapon Master is one of those in between - if you Crit, or kill a creature - you should remember to attack again - system won't automate another attack, or remind you - But you can apply an effect by creating a power in your Action tab, and applying it when you wish to attack

Effect GWM; ATK: -5; DMG: 10
Target Self
Expend on next roll

When you attack it will subtract 5 to hit, give you +10 damage , and will then reset after you attack, ready for next time

Would be interesting to see what official lines or general thoughts on why more automated effects aren't included in the modules you buy

Mav

[Zacchaeus]

Welcome to FG and to the community

Effects are not hard coded so that there is flexibility in each ruleset so that the user can create their own characters the way they want or need. There are also literally thousands of possibilities and to hard code all of them would get messy. For example take a 1st level spell that an be cast at a higher slot level. To cover all the basis that would require maybe 5 possible effects just for that one spell and that isn't considering any possible bonus that the character might have if he chose a particular feat or had an ability.

In some rulesets there is quite a bit of automation, especially the 5e one, which is the ruleset that I assume you are using. Most spells where an effect can be created will be created when you drag/drop the spell into the character sheet action tab. For effects not automated the Wiki (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Effects#Examples) is the best source and it does give comprehensive instruction as to how to set up effects and there are many examples. You'll find links to more resources for effects here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22736-5E-Effects-examples). And for individual character classes there are links here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27296-Guides-videos-and-other-helpful-information) to tutorials and downloadable characters with all of the effects created (which can be drag/dropped into your own character). Additionally there is more on effects and creating weapons/power group etc here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Character_Sheet#Actions_Tab). If all of that fails then ask on the forums especially in the threads for the rulesets you are interested in and someone will have an answer for you within a short space of time. You can also ask questions on the Discord (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36377-New-Official-Discord-Server) channel.

In respect of the Great Weapons Master you can't set up an effect to automate the additional bonus attack. For the second part you'll need a new line in the weapons section showing the penalty to damage and bonus to attack. (You can also set up a copy of the weapon in question and edit it in items before giving it to the player and it will then automatically add in the attacks.

[Zacchaeus]

Greater Weapon Master is one of those in between - if you Crit, or kill a creature - you should remember to attack again - system won't automate another attack, or remind you - But you can apply an effect by creating a power in your Action tab, and applying it when you wish to attack

Effect GWM; ATK: -5; DMG: 10
Target Self
Expend on next roll

When you attack it will subtract 5 to hit, give you +10 damage , and will then reset after you attack, ready for next time

Mav

Whilst this is certainly an option it is much easier (IMO) to create a second weapon line in the weapons section. Additionally if you set it up to expire 'on next roll' the effect will disappear on the attack phase and will need to be reapplied in the damage phase. If you set it up to expire once per modifier then the effect will disappear only when you have completed the attack and damage. However this means that if the attack misses the damage will stick around until you next roll damage which might not be desirable and so the effect has to be removed manually. So, overall I'd suggest a new weapon line.

[Nickademus]

But I need moar effects on me!

[Myrdin Potter]

The DMs Guild store has several modules with premade effects in them, so if you want to save a little time you can look at them. Plus it also has premade characters with many effects built in for the different classes and sub-classes. There are are character examples you can find at the top of this forum.

I do understand the point of the OP. If a 3rd party can code spells so they work better, why doesn't the program do the same?

[LordEntrails]

...
I do understand the point of the OP. If a 3rd party can code spells so they work better, why doesn't the program do the same?
My opinion? Resources.

Sure, SW/FG could include a lot of stuff that currently is developed and maintained by the community. But then that would mean that their developer resources would be spent adding the effects and not working on new capabilities and the Unity rebuild/migration. New capabilities and Unity are not things the community can work on, but we can work on effects and other usability things. I'm happy with effects and such being left to the community and giving SmiteWorks the time to do stuff we can't.

[L. R. Ballard]

My opinion? Resources.

Sure, SW/FG could include a lot of stuff that currently is developed and maintained by the community. But then that would mean that their developer resources would be spent adding the effects and not working on new capabilities and the Unity rebuild/migration. New capabilities and Unity are not things the community can work on, but we can work on effects and other usability things. I'm happy with effects and such being left to the community and giving SmiteWorks the time to do stuff we can't.

The preceding reply is strong. Something similar happens with video games like Skyrim that allow users to create mods to enhance the "vanilla" game. Some community-created mods for Skyrim include realistic cold weather and survival effects, reorganization and expansion of the perk, or skill, trees, and enhancement to artificial intelligence. The maker of Skyrim, Bethesda, can't code all the new and improved features that users want because the former lacks resources. Furthermore, there is no expectation from the Skyrim community on Nexus, for example, that Bethesda should code a wish list that gamers have for Skyrim after its release. But Bethesda can give players access to its Creation Kit so that modders can build on the game. Fantasy Grounds' extensions remind me of Skyrim mods in that users can write programs to improve the game.

Perhaps after FG Unity rolls out, FG Unity users will have even greater capabilities for writing scripts or extensions that enhance elements of the baseline experience. My sense is that those capabilities will happen only after some time, if at all. I am not a computer programmer, so I have no idea how one would access the scripting or coding language of Unity. But a Creation Kit or access to the coding language could lead to exponential improvements to the FG Unity utility. For that, SmiteWorks must open the door.

[General06]

The preceding reply is strong. Something similar happens with video games like Skyrim that allow users to create mods to enhance the "vanilla" game. Some community-created mods for Skyrim include realistic cold weather and survival effects, reorganization and expansion of the perk, or skill, trees, and enhancement to artificial intelligence. The maker of Skyrim, Bethesda, can't code all the new and improved features that users want because the former lacks resources. Furthermore, there is no expectation from the Skyrim community on Nexus, for example, that Bethesda should code a wish list that gamers have for Skyrim after its release. But Bethesda can give players access to its Creation Kit so that modders can build on the game. Fantasy Grounds' extensions remind me of Skyrim mods in that users can write programs to improve the game.

Perhaps after FG Unity rolls out, FG Unity users will have even greater capabilities for writing scripts or extensions that enhance elements of the baseline experience. My sense is that those capabilities will happen only after some time, if at all. I am not a computer programmer, so I have no idea how one would access the scripting or coding language of Unity. But a Creation Kit or access to the coding language could lead to exponential improvements to the FG Unity utility. For that, SmiteWorks must open the door.

In this comparison with Skyrim, the actual vanilla game worked. The skills in the game and the items did what the description said it would do. All the mods you could download and use in Skyrim enhanced the vanilla game with more goodies and eye candy. Additionally, Skyrim costs $40 bucks. The entire D&D collection with an Ultimate license cost me over $500. For $500, I was hoping for a vanilla game that does not require me to code in the basic effects of feats, items, and skills. I am all for the community making a working game, work better. But here, the community is trying to make a broken game work period.

[General06]

Thank you for your response, and for the links you provided. All good recourses.

[LordEntrails]

First, I'm concerned that L.R. said my reply sounded strong. I'm not sure what that means, and am concerned it came across differently than I intended; negatively or aggressively or something. That was not my intent and I apologize if that's how others saw it. My statement was an attempt to point out that all of these things are do-able, and they could be done by SW, but it's about resource allocations. Every company has to decide where to best spend it's resources (money). Over the two years I've been an FG customer, I have felt that SW has done an excellent job investing the money I have spent with them on the biggest value add.


In this comparison with Skyrim, the actual vanilla game worked. The skills in the game and the items did what the description said it would do. All the mods you could download and use in Skyrim enhanced the vanilla game with more goodies and eye candy. Additionally, Skyrim costs $40 bucks. The entire D&D collection with an Ultimate license cost me over $500. For $500, I was hoping for a vanilla game that does not require me to code in the basic effects of feats, items, and skills. I am all for the community making a working game, work better. But here, the community is trying to make a broken game work period.
I fear that your expectations for FG were misplaced. I can only respond on my understanding, as a user, perhaps SmiteWorks would reply differently (and certainly with more skill than I).

FG costs $40 too. The other $460 you spent, you spent on content or licenses beyond the application itself. Perhaps an ultimate license at ~$120 so that your players would not need the $40 license. Then the rest was content, not capabilities (i.e. you purchased the WotC products). Buying the WotC products does get you something, it gets you the ability to drag and drop, search, reference, maps, pre-generated encounters, story entries, etc. I too buy them (not all, but the ones I need and can afford). To me, they have saved me hundred of hours, well worth the price I have paid.

For $40, FG works as a virtual table top. It does not work as a computer RPG. It was never designed to. It lets you do everything you can do on paper, on the VTT. All of those things; remembering conditions, effects, tracking hit points, etc would have to be done with pencil and paper (tokens, mini's, etc) on a table top. FG let's us do all that plus it helps automate a great deal of it. But, not everything. As others have said, some of this is due to complexity of coding, some because to do so would break the flow or processes used in TTRPGs, some because it allows players and their game masters to do things the way they want to.

At this point though, what I think is important to discuss is how can General06 be a happy customer? I don't know if clarifying or setting expectation or such helps since he has already purchased (though SW does have a 30 day money back guarantee).

What can we do to help?

[L. R. Ballard]

First, I'm concerned that L.R. said my reply sounded strong. I'm not sure what that means, and am concerned it came across differently than I intended; negatively or aggressively or something. That was not my intent and I apologize if that's how others saw it.

Ah, let me clarify. By "strong," I mean a conclusion that probably follows from the stated premises. To say that an argument is "strong" is to say that the author has provided good support for his argument. A "weak" argument, by contrast, hasn't provided enough support to prove the conclusion.

Editor's Note: "Inductive arguments make weaker claims than those made by deductive arguments. Because their conclusions are never certain, the terms validity and invalidity do not apply to inductive arguments. . . . The higher the level of probability conferred on its [an inductive argument's] conclusion by the premises of an inductive argument, the greater is the merit of that argument. We can say that inductive arguments may be 'better' or 'worse,' 'weaker' or 'stronger,' and so on" (Copi, Cohen, and McMahon 25).

FG developers make decisions based on a wise use of resources.
Resources do not permit developers both to develop Unity and to code effects in the existing system.
It is wiser to use resources to develop Unity than to code effects.
Therefore, the developers choose to develop Unity.

I think that that argument is "strong," i.e., probably true. Furthermore, and in answer to the OP, I think that it is wiser to develop Unity partly because it will enable the FG community to improve the utility so that it produces all the effects the OP seeks.

Source: Copi, Irving M., Carl Cohen, and Kenneth McMahon. Introduction to Logic. 14th edition. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice
Hall, 2011.

[L. R. Ballard]

At this point though, what I think is important to discuss is how can General06 be a happy customer? I don't know if clarifying or setting expectation or such helps since he has already purchased (though SW does have a 30 day money back guarantee).

What can we do to help?

Exactly. I agree that if the product hasn't met the OP's expected results, my offering him a philosophical argument to the contrary won't suffice. But I think that it's important to note that FG Unity could address some of those coding issues by involving modders. In that respect, the FG community may have something to learn from Skyrim mods, the strength of the rest of my comparison notwithstanding.

I'll get back to converting NPCs and leave customer service to the professionals!

[Callum]

I was hoping for a vanilla game that does not require me to code in the basic effects of feats, items, and skills. I am all for the community making a working game, work better. But here, the community is trying to make a broken game work period.

I think the key point here is that you were hoping to get these things included - but they weren't advertised or promised as being included. Furthermore, them not being included does not make the game in any way broken - it works just fine!

[FeatheredDrachyn]

You can't compare any tabletop RPG to Skyrim. Its not a video game, and it won't ever run like one. Tabletops are a true open world, where nearly anything can be attempted and might even succeed. It is impossible for any program to include every possible variation on every ruling for every ability. The rules are designed specifically with flexibility in mind. The nature of a tabletop RPG does not lend itself to full automation. And to do that would remove a lot of the flexibility and place hard limits on the game. There are as many ways to use an ability in game as there are players and GMs. The game is not broken. You just don't know how to play it. If a little bit of simple math is too intimidating, then find a GM that prefers to work behind a screen and do the math for you, or go play a video game where you don't need a GM. If you are trying to GM a game, and you run into something that the computer won't do "for you", then just use your imagination and interpret the situation in a way that is best for your story, your players and your table. I have played D&D in the middle of the woods using slips of paper in place of dice and no books - and it was a fantastic game. Lasted three straight days. Fantasy Grounds is not "the game". It is only a tool to use when playing the game.

[rob2e]

I always encourage people to learn and code themselves (so that they can understand how to affect their own homebrew stuff), but if you don't wanna bother with it, I have made solutions.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/226590/?affiliate_rem=878507
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/231973/?affiliate_rem=878507