Scroll DCs and Attack Bonuses

[LordEntrails]

Can anyone point me to a source for determining the DC and/or attack bonus of a spell cast from a scroll?

I know that the spell scrolls from the DMG already have this listed, but when creating custom scrolls (and using custom spells) how is this determined?

[Nickademus]

The level of the spell on the scroll determines the spell’s saving throw DC and Attack bonus, as well as the scroll’s rarity, as shown in the Spell Scroll table.

The level of the spell determines the stats, regardless of what spell it is (standard or custom). Unless you are dealing with mythical level 10 spells, any scroll should have an entry on that table.

[LordEntrails]

Well, if I look at the individual scrolls (say Scroll of Aid) it tells me the DC is 13 and the attack bonus is +5. But I'm trying to figure out where those numbers come from.

For instance, scrolls are created at the min level needed to cast the spell. So a level 2 wizard spell would be created by a 3rd level wizard, which would be a proficiency of +2 so the DC should be 8+2+INT, but what INT bonus to use? And the attack bonus is Proficiency + INT, so again, that would be +2+INT, but what INT? It doesn't seem to be consistent...

It looks like the DMG scrolls use:
Level 0, 1, 2 > DC 13, +5 Attack (+2 prof)
Level 3, 4 > DC 15, +7 Attack (+3 prof)
Level 5, 6 > DC 17, +9 Attack (+4 prof)
Level 7, 8 > DC 18, +10 Attack (+5 prof)
Level 9 > DC 19, +11 Attack (+6 prof)

So, that would give of INT bonuses of:
Level 0-2 > +3 (16+ Int)
Level 3 & 4 > +4 (18+ Int)
Level 5 & 6 > +5 (20+ Int)
Level 7 & 8 > +5 (20+ Int)
Level 9 > +5 (20+ Int)

I guess that's reasonable. Just seems to scale quickly at the beginning and then slow down at 7th level.

[Nickademus]

From what I see, much of 5e isn't made by following a formula based on how PCs are made (like Pathfinder is). Instead, the numbers on the GM's side of the screen seem to be made in response to what a PC can do. So while it may not be as glorious of an answer as you would prefer, I believe the answer to "where those numbers come from" is simply: they are from the table, where the values were determined based on what should be challenging for a PC of the level that the spell should challenge them. Not trying to snarky or harsh, but I think a legitimate answer is "they are the numbers because the table said so".

As for the scaling, it seems what I would expect. By the time the PCs are exposed or casting 7th-level spells, they should already have their three attuned magic items, most of their class features, and the majority of their proficiency bonus. There isn't as many increases to saves and attacks at the higher levels, so the scaling makes sense to slow down. Everything seems fine to me.

[LordEntrails]

Didn't see it as snarky. I agree that a lot of 5E is just set to be an appropriate value rather than controlled by a formula. I was just trying to make generic text for some scroll-like items, but I'll just have to change the text for each item, or at least each set of items.

Thanks for the input :)

[Zacchaeus]

The DC and attack bonus of a spell in a spell scroll is determined by the table on p200 of the DMG.

[LordEntrails]

The DC and attack bonus of a spell in a spell scroll is determined by the table on p200 of the DMG.
Ah! Hmm, for those of us without a printed version (FG only) could you by chance let me know where in the FG DMG it might be? I've tried searching the reference manual and the tables, as well as browsing and I can't find it.

[Nickademus]

The DC and attack bonus of a spell in a spell scroll is determined by the table on p200 of the DMG.
I had stated this in my quote above. Though the lack of page numbers in the FG modules does pose a problem.

Ah! Hmm, for those of us without a printed version (FG only) could you by chance let me know where in the FG DMG it might be? I've tried searching the reference manual and the tables, as well as browsing and I can't find it.I don't have the DMG module so I can't help you there, but you could always look on the SRD (https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/magic-items/wondrous-items/#Spell_Scroll) to find the table.

[Zacchaeus]

Hmm, you'll have a hard time finding it, since it doesn't appear in the FG version of the DMG. Where it should appear is in the description of the spell scroll (i.e. in items - spell scroll (1st Level) etc). However it isn't there. It would seem that Zeus, when he created the DMG, simply used the table in the paper version of the DMG to allocate the spell attack and save DCs to each level of spell scroll and then when the actual spell is merged with the spell scroll (1st Level) etc item to create the spell scrolls it automatically allocates the correct attack or save.

I will note this on my list to add to the DMG at some point. I think it would be good to add the blurb about spell scrolls and the table in the Treasure/Magic Item Categories chapter. Unless you have any better ideas.

[LordEntrails]

Hmm, you'll have a hard time finding it, since it doesn't appear in the FG version of the DMG. Where it should appear is in the description of the spell scroll (i.e. in items - spell scroll (1st Level) etc). However it isn't there. It would seem that Zeus, when he created the DMG, simply used the table in the paper version of the DMG to allocate the spell attack and save DCs to each level of spell scroll and then when the actual spell is merged with the spell scroll (1st Level) etc item to create the spell scrolls it automatically allocates the correct attack or save.

I will note this on my list to add to the DMG at some point. I think it would be good to add the blurb about spell scrolls and the table in the Treasure/Magic Item Categories chapter. Unless you have any better ideas.
In the "Reference Manual > Chapter 7 > Magic Item Categories (then under Scrolls)" is where I would think it should go. I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not. Maybe it should be a table, but it's not really roll-able so that would be of minor value.

Thanks :)

[Zacchaeus]

Yeah, when I say table I mean an embedded text table rather than a rollable one.

[Nickademus]

In the "Reference Manual > Chapter 7 > Magic Item Categories (then under Scrolls)" is where I would think it should go. I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not. Maybe it should be a table, but it's not really roll-able so that would be of minor value.

Thanks :)

It should be noted (especially for people that come into 5e from PF or 3.5) that not all scrolls are spell scrolls. Thus only spell scrolls require the user to have the spell on a class list and only the spell scrolls would derive their attacks and saves from the table. Other types of scrolls are usable by anyone and would communicate the numbers for any interactions in the individual descriptions.

Putting the table in the magic item - scrolls section might imply that all scrolls use the table and thus all scrolls can only contain spells.

[Zacchaeus]

It should be noted (especially for people that come into 5e from PF or 3.5) that not all scrolls are spell scrolls. Thus only spell scrolls require the user to have the spell on a class list and only the spell scrolls would derive their attacks and saves from the table. Other types of scrolls are usable by anyone and would communicate the numbers for any interactions in the individual descriptions.

Putting the table in the magic item - scrolls section might imply that all scrolls use the table and thus all scrolls can only contain spells.

I wasn't perhaps very clear. The intention would be to include the text which is included in the spell scrolls as well as the table in a section called spell scrolls within the magic items category. I would not disturb the blurb as it stand just now that is found in the spell scrolls. Including only the table in the mentioned section would, as you say lend itself to potential confusion. The section in the physical book is actually in the list of magic items itself rather than in the introductory paragraphs of the magic items which contains the details about scrolls (such as protection scrolls et al).