Interesting Article On Gary Gygax And Dave Arneson On Ares Technica

[dulux-oz]

Just read this on Ares - thought it was interesting enough to post a link here.

https://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2017/05/a-fascinating-graphic-novel-about-the-origins-of-dungeons-dragons/

Enjoy

[Nickademus]

I read an interesting article several years ago written by Gygax himself. (It might have been some Up on a Soapbox articles for Dragon Mag.) I'm curious if this graphic novel finally shows that Gygax didn't invent D&D (like he openly admitted in the article. I'm guessing not considering the title...

[LordEntrails]

Well, if you read the comics on the article, it states that Arneson is the one who invented character sheets and the Dungeon Master. It implies that Gygax created a table top wargame with wizards and magical monsters. Sounds to me that D&D wouldn't be what we play today without both of those contributions (though Arneson seems more iconic and essential).

Thanks for the link :)

[Nickademus]

Indeed, Arneson created the RPG environment and a lot of the concepts that highly deviated from the normal wargames of the time. Gygax was the business man, the one that put his name and money on creating and selling the actual products. But they both had to work to together to get Arneson's unusual (at the time) format melded with Gygax's Chainmail atmosphere.

I hope the comic also goes into the other eight or so people that worked with Gygax and Arneson to create and playtest the rules (you know, the players of Melf, Otto, Bigby, Rary, Tenser, Otiluke, Robilar, and such). It always burned me that Gygax got all the credit for a game that was so heavily influenced from its earliest start by other people. Even in the articles I read by Gygax, he never claimed to have created D&D and states that it was a group project where each player took turns GMing and tweaking the rules as they went. Of course, he also never openly refuted the claim either, instead letting people believe what they want. Bah, I'm old-man-ranting now.

[vodokar]

I see it as a direct comparison to another very famous duo from the same time. Jobs and Wozniak. Wozniak created the computer, but without Jobs, there would never have been an Apple company and Woz's work would have been left in obscurity. Just like Woz was content to stay in the background at Apple and then eventually drift off away from the company to do other things, Arneson did the same thing. Ultimately, we need to appreciate both men, Wozniak and Arneson for their contributions to their respective fields despite the fact that in both cases, the point men, Jobs and Gygax, who contributed a great many things in their own right in making these things the wave of revolution and cultural impact that they had, likely got too much of the credit. But, that's the way it usually is. You can't really expect a determined business man, whose goal and purpose is to spread and make the cause flourish, to go down the road of putting out a counter message to that goal which is that he isn't the one who thought of it. One last example of that is Ray Crock of McDonald's. He wrote the McDonald's brother's out of the story because it didn't fit his goal of spreading his message and vision. Perhaps these things aren't right, but it's a story that has been repeated throughout history because there can only be one face on a dream, apparently.

[LordEntrails]

... but it's a story that has been repeated throughout history because there can only be one face on a dream, apparently.
Interesting observation. Seems like we often see it in the music industry as well with the lead singer often taking most/all of the credit.

I can see the reason organizations need a leader, but why does it seem like we need a single person or face in which to place our dreams? Hmm, interesting...

[Callum]

I think the definitive work on this topic (insofar as such a thing is possible) is Jon Peterson's Playing at the World (https://www.unreason.com/), and I heartily recommend it to anyone with an interest. It's very detailed, and makes a point of relying on primary sources for its information. One of the interesting things that I learned from it is that there's another person who had a significant role in the creation of Dungeons & Dragons (and role-playing games in general) - David Wesley. His "Braunstein" game, which directly influenced Arenson's "Blackmoor" campaign, is arguably the first instance of a role-playing game as we now understand it. In fact, I find the most interesting thing about this whole history is the way that D&D (and other games before it) evolved over a long time, and over long distances, in a piecemeal way, with different people contributing different aspects - picking up something someone else had done, and developing it further. It's a fascinating process of game evolution.

[Nylanfs]

I'm glad I was able to pick up the Blackmoor books and get them signed by Dave before he passed on. I let him know how much his work has affected my life. :)

[Myrdin Potter]

I do not know why this is even a discussion. Looking at my OD&D books, Gygax is never listed alone and Arneson is listed alone once for Blackmoor.

Please do not confuse D&D with TSR.

[Nylanfs]

Because we are gamers and like to ague about minutia. :)

[LordEntrails]

Because we are gamers and like to ague about minutia. :)
No we don't. We only argue about earth shattering, world changing, end of civilization, scientifically provable alternative facts. You know, like why is the sky blue?

[Nylanfs]

No, the sky is azure!

[Nickademus]

Actually, the sky isn't any color. What you see is actually light refracting through chemicals heavy in the air. The sky can appear blue, green, even orange as the density of these chemicals change. *pointincase*

[dulux-oz]

Actually, its "light refracting through chemicals, dust and other small particles" - but point taken! :p

[Spin-Man]

I do not know why this is even a discussion. Looking at my OD&D books, Gygax is never listed alone and Arneson is listed alone once for Blackmoor.

Please do not confuse D&D with TSR.
My introduction to D&D was in 2nd Edition. When I went back to what I thought was the beginning, all those AD&D books had Gygax's name alone on the cover, so I thought for years that he was the sole creator. Pop culture hasn't really helped in that regard, either. Gygax has appeared in shows like Futurama, but I had never heard of Arneson until less than 10 years ago. No one knows his name unless they are into roleplaying games, but Gygax is a household name throughout all of nerd culture. Sort of like how everyone who can name a superhero knows Stan Lee, but only comic fans know how Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko contributed to the creation of Spider-Man.

As for the article in the OP, I ordered the graphic novel and I enjoyed it. I recommend it: the art and narrative style are good, and I learned some things from it, too. For example, I had no idea that H. G. Wells wrote a miniatures war game.

[Myrdin Potter]

I started with OD&D, but I really started on my own with the Basic boxed set (the first one) and then quickly moved to AD&D. These discussions get confusing because there are a few flavors of "D&D" and what exactly you are referring to can confuse the issue.

D&D started as the fantasy supplement to Chainmail which was a miniatures game for medieval combat. The front cover of the 3rd edition says "by Gary Gygax and Jeff Perrin". As an interesting aside, the "fantasy" section starts at page 28 of the rules and specifically mentions Tolkien with hobbits, Ents and Balrog listed as monsters. TSR was sued over the use of these names and later there was a claim that Tolkien was not the main influence on D&D, but it is obvious he was. So the very fist book - no truth to the claims of Gygax claiming sole credit.

The came Dungeons and Dragons, published as three booklets. All three books (incomplete rules, assumed you had Chainmail - combat rules - and even an Avalon Hill game called "Outdoor Survival") list "Gygax and Arneson". There were 4 supplements published as booklets to expand the rules. Gygax is only on the cover for 2 of 4 and not alone each time (once Bloom and once Kuntz). Arenson is listed alone for Blackmoor. Gygax is listed alone on anothjer rules book - "swords and spells" which is miniatures rules for D&D (full circle back to Chainmail there ...).

Then there was sort of a split. AD&D and a newer version of D&D. D&D was first the Holmes blue book (in a boxed set, my very first D&D purchase). That says Gygax and Arneson edited by Holmes. Later these were done again as Basic D&D with rules starting with levels 1-5 and then a new book for higher and higher levels. I never played that system as I went over to AD&D and I do not have those books, so not sure who is credited there.

For AD&D, it says only Gygax on the cover. He released the Monster Manual first, and the preface to that book thanks a bunch of people who contributed, Arneson is not mentioned. The Players handbook and DM's Guide is the same. Arneson is listed in the PHB as someone (one of quite a few) that contributed to the original game. In the PHB, Gygax made it clear that he wrote the AD&D rules, that he had help, but he basically claimed the "head judge" role which is a direct callback to the origins as a miniatures game.

I do not want to step through all the other editions, but I am pretty sure that Gygax does not claim to be the one and only for 2e and once you get to Third edition he was gone from TSR and other people are listed on the cover. 5e clearly gives credit to Gygax and Arneson for creating the original game.

I find no factual support for the foolish hobgoblin that Gygax claimed sole credit for the game. The creation of TSR and who owned it and profited is a different story and it went to who had money to actually publish everything and who therefore assumed control as the game grew in popularity. That was Gygax. Gygax was certainly the face of the game and I met him at a Gencon in the early 80's (I think I first played in 1980 or 1981 in high school) and Arneson was just a credit on book covers by that point.

[Spin-Man]

You know the history better than me, but this is all very 'inside baseball.' My point was that the outside world and casual fans are often presented with a simplified history that boils down to "Gary Gygax made D&D" regardless of whether he personally made such a claim, and that's why these discussions keep popping up.

[celestian]

My point was that the outside world and casual fans are often presented with a simplified history that boils down to "Gary Gygax made D&D" regardless of whether he personally made such a claim, and that's why these discussions keep popping up.

He did make D&D. If it had not been for him TSR wouldn't have existed and D&D wouldn't have been produced as it is today. There are certainly many cogs in the machine but that's a pretty big gear.

Maybe Arneson would have made a version of it? I find that unlikely tho. Based on history and the people that knew him said he had a hard time organizing his thoughts (see his published products?).

Personally I think folks like Frank Mentzer and Tim Kask probably had more to do with the popularity of D&D than Arneson at the end of the day.

[Nickademus]

no truth to the claims of Gygax claiming sole credit.

For the record, Gygax NEVER claimed to invent D&D or be, as many call him, the 'Father of D&D'. He simply doesn't correct anyone who thinks this, at least not loudly. The few rare places I've seen him talk about it he openly tells the sorry of how the RPG idea was Arnesan's and how multiple people contributed. Don't let my posts (or anyone else's) lead you to believe that Gygax actively tried to grab credit for anything other than the company TSR (and I think the creation of GenCON).