How Would You Handle NPC Ability Scores in this Example?

[L. R. Ballard]

I'm converting an adventure module from 2e to 5e, working on NPCs this weekend. I've decided to use the standard array of stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) as the baseline for all NPCs. The current NPC I'm converting is a dwarf. The adventure states that he has an 18 Strength and a 17 Constitution. He's also entitled to various racial and subracial bonuses to stats, as well as class-based raises since he's a fighter.

What would you do with his ability scores? Would you give him the base 17 Constitution and then further augment it 2 points for race? Then his stat doesn't reflect "canon." Or would you presuppose that he has already received the racial bonus in the score and thereby hold to his "canon" Constitution score? Or would you start with the standard array and augment the abilities only insofar as the class and racial builds allow, achieving the book values only if the combination of standard array and various bonuses allow?

Also, if I decide to make him a mountain dwarf, should he be presupposed already to have the +2 Strength bonus?

There's no right or wrong answer, of course. But I'd like to know your opinion, especially since he'll (hopefully) appear in an FG module.

[Nickademus]

I'm no expert in converting to 5e but from what I've picked up, NPCs don't have to follow any rules for their design. The end result is used to calculate the offense and defensive CR, the average of which determines the end CR. So don't worry about justifying any bonuses. Just give the NPC what stats you feel fit the situation and then check the CR to make sure it is appropriate.

Given that 20 is the cap for ability scores, where 18 (19 with racial bonus) was the cap in 2e if I remember right, it should be fine to use the 18 and 17 in place of the 15 and 14 of the standard array. In the end it's the CR that matters as that is the measure of how hard to kill he is and how much punishment he can dish out.

[LordEntrails]

For ease, I would probably just give him 18, 17, 13, 12, 10, 8 as his array. Maybe if he is high level bump up something more. But I'm a pretty seat of the pants type guy and don't worry about the little stuff.

If he was above CR10 I might allow his strength or con to go above the current scores, or even bump up one or two of the others by a point or two. But as Nick says, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules you need to follow. Especially when converting older stuff. I just go by "feel", and since 5E stats are much lower than 3/3.5 I'm pretty stingy with NPC stats (which a lot of other people are not).

[L. R. Ballard]

I'm no expert in converting to 5e but from what I've picked up, NPCs don't have to follow any rules for their design. The end result is used to calculate the offense and defensive CR, the average of which determines the end CR. So don't worry about justifying any bonuses. Just give the NPC what stats you feel fit the situation and then check the CR to make sure it is appropriate.

That's correct. I'm using the DMG guidelines (173-83), in which the rules for NPC creation are flexible and the CR calculation is crucial.


Given that 20 is the cap for ability scores, where 18 (19 with racial bonus) was the cap in 2e if I remember right, it should be fine to use the 18 and 17 in place of the 15 and 14 of the standard array. In the end it's the CR that matters as that is the measure of how hard to kill he is and how much punishment he can dish out.

Yup, he's a 9th-level fighter, so he's entitled to ability score improvements at 4th, 6th, and 8th levels. If he gets those improvements in strength, he'll deal more damage. If his damage output increases substantially, his CR can increase.

[L. R. Ballard]

For ease, I would probably just give him 18, 17, 13, 12, 10, 8 as his array. Maybe if he is high level bump up something more. But I'm a pretty seat of the pants type guy and don't worry about the little stuff.

He's a 9th-level fighter and gets ability score improvements at 4th, 6th, and 8th levels. I may use those improvements to bump up some of the other abilities provided that the improvements don't overshadow Strength or Constitution, which Ed Greenwood indicates are supposed to be the given NPC's primary attributes.


If he was above CR10 I might allow his strength or con to go above the current scores, or even bump up one or two of the others by a point or two. But as Nick says, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules you need to follow. Especially when converting older stuff. I just go by "feel", and since 5E stats are much lower than 3/3.5 I'm pretty stingy with NPC stats (which a lot of other people are not).

I'll probably leave Strength and Constitution at book value since the NPC is only 9th level.

[LordEntrails]

You can also assume the 18 & 17 are obtained from the ASI's he got at those levels. (In 2E he probably got them from experience, potions, magic etc)

[Olek]

I've converted a AD&D campaign over to 5E, and I did a straight swap of stats as they are, with the exception of exceptional strength which I made 19.
I did not add anything for Race nor did I give the players the opportunity to increase stats retroactively from being over 5th level, basically their current stats are assumed to already have had the increase.

[El Condoro]

Wizards put out this guide (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DnD_Conversions_1.0.pdf) a while back. Might help.

[Myrdin Potter]

5e does not do quite an exact translation of classes to NPC. Look at guard and veteran in the MM as examples.

I'm your case, I would take the veteran NPC, adjust the stats from human to dwarf, and then make any other changes you think is needed to make it the "9th level" fighter you were aiming at.

5e fighters get to be battlemasters or champions or eldritch knights, so there are a few more traits you could add.

[L. R. Ballard]

Thanks for the replies, and my apologies for the delay. I'm working on two academic editing projects this week. But I'll try to reply to posters this coming weekend, if not sooner!

[Nickademus]

One thing I think you might not realize about 5e, based on your previous posts: NPCs in 5e don't have a class or a level. They have a race and stats, that's all. (Some have a spellcaster level that you can use to gauge what level they might be.)

You don't have to try to fit the stats into the framework of a class/background/level that PCs use unless you want to. It's totally up to you, but the NPCs made by WotC don't.

[L. R. Ballard]

I've converted a AD&D campaign over to 5E, and I did a straight swap of stats as they are, with the exception of exceptional strength which I made 19.

I'm converting FRE1 "Shadowdale," a 2e adventure set in the Forgotten Realms and written by Ed Greenwood, to 5e. I'm converting the module as part of the Classic Modules Today project. Basically, I'm writing a guide that helps DMs run classic adventures in 5e on the tabletop. But I'm also using Fantasy Grounds to lay out the conversion and would like to make the conversion available on DMs Guild for the FG community.

The challenge with Greenwood's module is that he doesn't give full stats for NPCs, so a "straight swap of stats as they are" is impossible unless the NPC has been detailed in another product.

So, for example, the passage on the dwarf I'm converting reads: "Dorn Blackhammer, the dwarf, is a 9th level fighter with 70 hp, 18/78 ST (+2 to hit, +4 on damage) and 17 CO" (Greenwood FRE1 16). Greenwood writes a few more paragraphs on Dorn (who, by the way, became a recurring character in my childhood campaign), but, as far as stats, that's it. That's why I need to develop full stats for Dorn. However, Jhaele Silvermane and Lord Mourngrym, who appear in FRE1, are detailed in other 2e and 3e sources, so I should be able to find their stats in those sources and do the "straight swap" suggested.

[L. R. Ballard]

Wizards put out this guide (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DnD_Conversions_1.0.pdf) a while back. Might help.

Thanks. My logic aligns with the guide that you linked to. The guide advises, "Reassigning Ability Scores. Rather than converting scores, especially if you have trouble doing so, you can follow the rules for determining ability scores set forth in the fifth edition Player’s Handbook. To do so, use the standard set of scores or customized scores acquired by spending points. Then apply racial adjustments and any adjustments from the Ability Score Improvement class feature. Use the original character’s ability scores to guide your choices" ("Conversions to 5th Edition D&D" 2).

In the example of converting Dorn, I used the standard set of scores (PHB 5e, 13) just as the guide advises, but I'll probably keep the strength and constitution scores that Greenwood notes.

[L. R. Ballard]

You can also assume the 18 & 17 are obtained from the ASI's he got at those levels. (In 2E he probably got them from experience, potions, magic etc)

I recall that ability score increases in 2e came from magic mainly. I'd probably make the assumption you suggest, though the guide linked to by El Condoro advises that I can add the level-based ASIs, if I choose to treat the NPC as class based, of course.

If I added the level-based ASIs, would there be a concern that the NPC was overpowered?

[L. R. Ballard]

5e does not do quite an exact translation of classes to NPC. Look at guard and veteran in the MM as examples.

Thanks. I looked at those two over the weekend. In fact, I based my conversion of the Purple Dragon soldier, level 1, on the Guard. Greenwood offers this description of the Purple Dragon soldier: "If the PCs attack her, Salreen will call for help. It will come in the form of a patrol of twelve Purple Dragon soldiers, five 1st and seven 2nd level fighters, clad in chainmail and armed with longswords, spears, handaxes and daggers" (FRE1 8). Thus, I made two NPCs: a 1st-level Purple Dragon Soldier and a 2nd-level Purple Dragon Soldier. I looked at the Guard from the 5e Monster Manual (347) for a reference monster, so to speak.

I didn't add a background to the 1st-level Purple Dragon, but I added the Soldier background--and thereby two more skills--to the 2nd-level Purple Dragon simply to differentiate the two. I added the Action Surge to both NPCs, and I added all the weapons that Greenwood states the Purple Dragons have on their persons. I also gave the 2nd-level Purple Dragon Soldier the fighter class feature of Second Wind.


I'm your case, I would take the veteran NPC, adjust the stats from human to dwarf, and then make any other changes you think is needed to make it the "9th level" fighter you were aiming at.

5e fighters get to be battlemasters or champions or eldritch knights, so there are a few more traits you could add.

I like the idea of adding a martial archetype to high-level fighters like Dorn. It gives the NPC greater depth and personality. I'm doing the conversion for the Classic Modules Today project per the advice I got in my first thread from you or Lord Entrails. One of the converters, Mark Stout, has made class-based NPCs with martial archetypes for some of his conversions. He has published a PDF of NPCs through DMs Guild with class builds for all the basic classes, even-numbered levels 2 through 20.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/183538/Classed-NPC-Quick-Build-Guide-5e?filters=0_0_45381_0_0_0_0_0

[L. R. Ballard]

One thing I think you might not realize about 5e, based on your previous posts: NPCs in 5e don't have a class or a level. They have a race and stats, that's all. (Some have a spellcaster level that you can use to gauge what level they might be.)

Of course I do! But I grant that my previous posts assumed without explanation that I'd chosen to calculate the bonuses as though the humanoid NPCs were classed, an option that the DMG allows.


You don't have to try to fit the stats into the framework of a class/background/level that PCs use unless you want to. It's totally up to you, but the NPCs made by WotC don't.

I like that freedom in 5e, and I've chosen to follow Mark Stout's lead and do the Classic Modules Today humanoid NPCs as class based whenever it makes sense. But I also like the more casual way that I've seen in official releases from WotC.

My question is would it bother anyone who might use NPCs that I've created that the humanoids have class-based stats and traits and actions and the like?

[Nickademus]

My question is would it bother anyone who might use NPCs that I've created that the humanoids have class-based stats and traits and actions and the like?

From what I've seen, I doubt anyone would care as long as the NPC matches its CR and they don't have to bother putting the stats into FG themselves. At least until the list of traits and actions starts getting long; then I'd shave some of the class-based features off that aren't needed for NPC's role in the adventure.

[L. R. Ballard]

From what I've seen, I doubt anyone would care as long as the NPC matches its CR and they don't have to bother putting the stats into FG themselves. At least until the list of traits and actions starts getting long; then I'd shave some of the class-based features off that aren't needed for NPC's role in the adventure.

I've checked the CR table and followed the steps advised in the DMG, but I still consider the NPCs to be first drafts; all the stats are parsing correctly and completely so far, which is good.

Those lists can get long, especially in the Combat Tracker. I've been walking through The Sunless Citadel with a party of pregens. One died, so I added an NPC from Sunless Citadel to the party. The NPC is only 1st level, but he has nine items listed in the tracker, mainly spells. Sometimes I had to minimize his Offense just to run the other participants. I can only imagine some of the lists for the higher-level characters. A trim may indeed be in order for some NPCs as this conversion progresses. . . .

[Nickademus]

I've heard advice that an NPC only needs a few spells, usually the highest level ones. A pregen for PC-use is different, but an NPC opponent won't generally have time to use all its spells. So only a few good ones are important. This wasn't the design pattern of earlier editions, so you may well have insane spell spam in the CT with a straight conversion. One of the things I like most about 5e was the removal of a lot of bloat (magic items, spells, bonuses, monster stats, etc.).

[L. R. Ballard]

I've heard advice that an NPC only needs a few spells, usually the highest level ones. A pregen for PC-use is different, but an NPC opponent won't generally have time to use all its spells. So only a few good ones are important.

How about a layout for spellcasters that plots five or so rounds of combat actions, summarizes those various rounds in the Notes at the bottom of the NPC stat card, and includes only those spells? So, for example:

Round-by-round Notes: 1. Mage armor. 2. Magic Missile. 3. Sleep.


This wasn't the design pattern of earlier editions, so you may well have insane spell spam in the CT with a straight conversion. One of the things I like most about 5e was the removal of a lot of bloat (magic items, spells, bonuses, monster stats, etc.).

Some 3rd-edition designs included complete stat blocks with full spell lists. However, a quick search of the FRE1 adventure shows that Ed Greenwood proceeds as you've advised. For example, Greenwood introduces a lawful evil wizard named Ulgon, writing, "Ulgon is LE, has 22 hp, and is armed with a wand of magic missiles (with 12 charges) and a blink ring (detailed in the New Magic appendix, p. 42). He also has a full complement of spells, including polymorph other, two lightning bolts, and three magic missiles" (FRE1 7).

Greenwood writes simply that Ulgon has "a full complement of spells" (FRE1 7), and, after offering a few examples, leaves the rest to the DM. I've yet to start converting spellcasters, but that may be the way to go, especially when I reach Elminster, who's 26th-level in FRE1.

[Nickademus]

He's 31st level by now, but yeah. A lot of the 2nd-Ed adventures have concise blocks too. Though, what I'd suggest is a little different and blends a technique from some of the 3rd-Ed and 2nd-Ed material. Start with a list of bluff spells that the NPC would try to get off before confrontation if alerted to the PCs' presence. Follow that up with a short list of tactics in the form 'if party has/does x, cast y'. This will give the GM some advice for playing the spellcaster (one of the hardest things for new GMs).

For example, Herbert is an enemy wizard that has been experimenting on local cat, incurring the wrath of the local cat lady who hires the PCs to teach him a lesson. He has an accomplice in town that knocks out and delivers the cats, and who may report the PCs involvement before the final confrontation. Thus his spell stats would look like the following.

Herbert is a 4th-level spellcaster. His spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 13, +5 to hit with spell attacks).

He casts the following spells if given an opportunity to buff before combat: mage armor, expeditious retreat, mirror image.

If the party focuses on his minions, he casts scorching ray on the strongest-looking PC.
If the party takes cover behind furniture, he casts magic missle.
If the party charges him, he casts thunderwave to push them away.
If the party surrounds him, he casts misty step to appear in the hallway and runs away.

Another idea that could be utilized is to put a full list of prepared/spellbook spells as links to the PHB spells in the Notes tab of the NPC. It will be out of the way, not parsed into the combat tracker, and offer links for the GMs that own the PHB module. And should something happen that the NPC needs to adjust their spells prepared, or the NPC somehow becomes a long-term villain, the GM doesn't need to worry about what the NPC would have access to.

We've really changed the topic of conversation haven't we...

[LordEntrails]

I recall that ability score increases in 2e came from magic mainly. I'd probably make the assumption you suggest, though the guide linked to by El Condoro advises that I can add the level-based ASIs, if I choose to treat the NPC as class based, of course.

If I added the level-based ASIs, would there be a concern that the NPC was overpowered?

To me, yes. To others I can't say. Note that STR effects attack, so I would definitely not use the published attack bonuses.

[L. R. Ballard]

He's 31st level by now, but yeah. A lot of the 2nd-Ed adventures have concise blocks too.

Ed was adapting the Avatar Trilogy novels into adventures; the 55-page, narrative heavy "Shadowdale" frequently labors to explain itself and its cataclysmic events at the expense of what I guess role-players now call "crunch," i.e., stats. That's probably why FRE1 is not as widely remembered or played that much today--it's a beast to prep. But it's really not a bad module. All it needs is a little love.


Though, what I'd suggest is a little different and blends a technique from some of the 3rd-Ed and 2nd-Ed material. Start with a list of bluff spells that the NPC would try to get off before confrontation if alerted to the PCs' presence. Follow that up with a short list of tactics in the form 'if party has/does x, cast y'. This will give the GM some advice for playing the spellcaster (one of the hardest things for new GMs).

For example, Herbert is an enemy wizard that has been experimenting on local cat, incurring the wrath of the local cat lady who hires the PCs to teach him a lesson. He has an accomplice in town that knocks out and delivers the cats, and who may report the PCs involvement before the final confrontation. Thus his spell stats would look like the following . . . .

Okay, the Notes are hypothetical statements--I have no problem formulating hypotheticals.


Another idea that could be utilized is to put a full list of prepared/spellbook spells as links to the PHB spells in the Notes tab of the NPC. It will be out of the way, not parsed into the combat tracker, and offer links for the GMs that own the PHB module. And should something happen that the NPC needs to adjust their spells prepared, or the NPC somehow becomes a long-term villain, the GM doesn't need to worry about what the NPC would have access to.

That's an excellent idea. I've already learned how to make links in FG. That list would be great for baddies like Fzoul Chembryl, who antagonized my old group's characters through two campaigns. Ah, to be kids and battle the Zhentilar.


We've really changed the topic of conversation haven't we...

Indeed. I'll be building NPCs throughout the summer, I think. Probably a new, more general NPC-building thread is called for.

[L. R. Ballard]

To me, yes. To others I can't say.

I've read a lot of posts here and elsewhere from gamers who say they're glad to be rid of the bloat from previous editions. Would it be preferable to a majority, do you think, to leave low-level guards and other generic NPCs unadorned with backgrounds, class-specific abilities like Action Surge or Second Wind, or archetypes, etc? I don't want people at a session intended for 5th-level characters to despair over the town guard or a super buff dwarf in the hinterland.


Note that STR effects attack, so I would definitely not use the published attack bonuses.

Do you mean the bonuses I quoted from Dorn's description? Those are 2e stats, and those would not remain. I'd keep the 18 Strength and use the 5e PHB numbers.

[Myrdin Potter]

As a general rule, unless the NPC is a "boss" NPC, the generic NPC's available usually do fine. I much prefer the 5e style of NPC stat blocks instead of playing the NPC as characters. Simplifies it down.

[L. R. Ballard]

As a general rule, unless the NPC is a "boss" NPC, the generic NPC's available usually do fine. I much prefer the 5e style of NPC stat blocks instead of playing the NPC as characters. Simplifies it down.

Cool. I'm laying out FRE1 in FG mainly to playtest the encounters for the CMT conversion. After finishing the CMT conversion of the Avatar Trilogy, I'll probably leave FRE1 unfinished as an FG conversion--for now--and convert some classic mods, which are more in demand.

But I don't want all the FG NPCs from FRE1 to go to waste. So, if the NPCs were complied into a resource like Skulduggery--albeit on DMs Guild--it sounds like keeping things simple is the way to go.